PvE Balance - Part 2

We have pvp for that kind of play , I'm pissed at A.net for making the buffs more different , I'd rather fight a monster with 12 skills of whom 3 are elite rather than a monster with 4 skills where nearly half of them are monster skills. I liked pve because monsters had skills and builds , like us , the more you go in the game the more they become some enemies I would encounter in WoW.

So basically, there would be nothing wrong with Anet implementing the changes I wanted, because Anet did it and not me?

I think you begin to see the problem - we're discussing what Anet should do. Therefore, it's meaningless to say that "well, other QQing players are not allowed to suggest things, but if Anet actually does it, then it's okay". What is the point of discussing anything about the game, if anything Anet does is okay, and anything suggested by players is not?

In short, you've missed my entire point - there has to be some metric by which game mechanics are determined. By arguing, "stop controlling how I play the game", you are sidestepping a discussion on the merits of the mechanics themselves and simply accusing people of trying to control you, which is completely immaterial to whether the change itself would be good or bad.

Here's a thought experiment for you: should Anet implement instant-kill and item creation abilities for all players? Why or why not?

And Phoenix, I have indeed repeated myself three times (four times now) - I do so because people continue to fail to grasp my point.

Item creation they already gave us, with the bonus items that granted people max damage weapons and offhands free instantly.

Instant-Kill is a little over the top, however what about this...

Players that complete an Elite Zone are granted a PvE Title similar to the GWEN titles but works in all PvE environments? One title per Elite Zone, each with slightly different effect (ie: +200hp or +20armor or +15energy or +15%damage). These would be unlockable bonus more inline with what exists in many other games. In many games when you reach the "end" of the story you unlock some feature that allows you to play the game again with an advantage that is meant to increase your enjoyment of the game.

Another idea could be to make consumables no longer craftable but drops from the end chests of Elite Zones. Would this make them more acceptable to those that dislike them?

By item creation, I mean full item creation - the ability to spawn any item you want, instantly in your inventory.

You missed the point of my thought experiment, anyway. One camp is arguing that players shouldn't control how other players play the game. Fine, assume that's true. What's the argument for any in-game controls then? Why can't I just do whatever I want, like instant-killing monsters? I want to instant-kill monsters. It's more fun for me. Anybody who doesn't want me to instant-kill monsters is just trying to control the way I play the game!

The point being, the whole "control" argument is spurious.

They don't need thousands of hours. For starters, mobs have shitty builds - rarely do they have monks or healers of any sort, full skillbars, secondary professions, item upgrades, or decent skills.

Finally! Thank you for a logical post putting so many "arguments" out of their misery. I find it hilarious that nobody yet has got the point you are trying to make.

I believe the July 2nd update indicates that ANet does indeed have not only the interest in finding a better overall balance for PvE, but also the will/manpower to implement things that will help. This certainly invalidates arguments that try to disuade me from my suggestions by stating that ANet doesn't care or isn't willing to change PvE. The continually more detailed rationale for balance changes in the update notes is absolutely a step in the right direction to keep those in the community who are curious or concerned informed. I can only hope that advancements continue to be made for both halves of your aging game.

Setting aside the question of whether I agree with your stance on the subject of PVE balance, the fact that the endgame isn't the biggest selling point for WoW has to do with the mentality of people.

When people pay for something they know will cost a monthly fee, the general mentality is that they DON'T EXPECT it to be something they'll finish quickly, or will be able to finish ever, depending on how much of a gamer they are.

Where as if someone pays a one-time payment for something, the general mentality tends to be that they EXPECT to be able to 'finish' whatever it is, have it 'all-at-once' or at least be able to try whatever there is, and not have it possible only after a long period of time either.

I'm not saying the a certain mentality is better or more correct or what not, but this is just what I observe in people around me (as well as in my own approach when it comes to games)

Thats good to hear, but makes you wonder how long did it take them to figure out that everyones playing PVE and they should concentrate on that, afterall its what made GW a success.

All you need to do is goto RA and see the population, theres more people in Pre Searing than than in RA, and RA is the most populated of all the PVP areas. Wierd, the so called end game, with all the attention thats been paid to it, its all for couple dozen people playing RA.... I like PVP but RA isnt the best form of PVP and anything else is not accessible to the casual PVP player hence RA is the most popular place to PVP... pretty disappointing for a game that touts its PVP. I like the PVP dont get me wrong but is RA the best they could do for us? But thats another topic...

This post made me cringe on so many levels.

SF and Ursan are two completely different things. One was an overly effective solo farming build, and the other is one part of an efficient team build that requires human players to co-operate to succeed.

If your main concern is finding a PuG in a high end area that doesn't want a specific build, then your solution doesn't solve anything. The next most efficient build will just take its place. If your main concern is that Ursan stagnates creative build making, then a duration nerf might be justified, so that Ursan becomes just one part of a player's skill bar, instead of the focus.

I lol'd. This game wasn't released a few days ago. Read back to the beginning of the game, where PvP was highly populated, and decent at so many levels.

The PvP made this game succesful from the beginning. I believe the sales became slower with the more campaigns that were added.

Tyla is right on this , I'm not much of a pvp player , but I bought the game for the simple fact that no matter how much money or time someone spent on high-end items is equally effective as that ugly pvp sword. This fact is still true , but pvp is so underpopulated that it's sad

Blame Anet. There is nobody else to blame.

Actually what it shows is that for PvE - they don't plan on balancing the game but rather just plan on countering what they feel is imbalanced.
Build Wars anyone?

So... balancing?

Hopefully these issues are not entirely forgotten in a fluster of repeated special event activities.

The only way I can see them profiting in the end is to NOT give in to your pathetic sniveling and stop crying nerf for PVE. Im really sick of seeing it on these forums. I think there are far more people that enjoy using these skills and consumables than your little motley crew, and it is these people that anet will lose in the end. In case you havent noticed, there are people that actually use these, stop trying to make GW much harder for the rest of us, we all can't be elitest snobs that are so godly in the game like you may be. Im really impressed by your super abilities in GW, but I am disabled and these skills are what allows me to play HM and other areas that people like you seem to breeze through. Stop using skills that you feel make the game too easy for you, try and remember that the game is not that easy for the rest of us, so please stop trying to ruin the game for us, I think this has gone far enough!

I am tired of all this change to my skills . Change the Monsters not the players gameplay .

PS Ectos are still dirty cheap , ANET have shot themselves in the foot.

EDIT.touch Protective Sprit ,go on i DARE you!

This debate could run in circles for the next few months/years...

As I see it I purchased this game 3+ years ago and feel I got my moneys worth. Has the game change? Yes! But then if it didn't I would have quit right after completing Prophicies.

Does the game have flaws? Yes! So does every other game ever made.

Think about this, for PvP, they have yet to create an arena for players between lvl 16 and 19, you cant go into the Shiverpeaks and your not maxed out so you either die fast in RA or have people map out as soon as they see your not lvl 20.


What I would really like to read here are some thoughts about this game from some NEW players, people that have just started playing in the last 3-6months. Are they happy? Are they frustrated? Mad?

People who post responses like this one clearly failed to take the time to actually read my proposed suggestions. At no time did I state that consumables should be altered in any way. All of my changes leave the skills at a still playable level, so those who do enjoy the current meta's builds will still find success with them. It is painfully obvious you must not have read my other thread, which detailed a great number of buffs that must be made to even the playing field should these types of nerfs occur. In all reality, I've suggested a great deal far fewer nerfs than I have buffs.

Please do me a favor and don't go off calling me (and others) names without taking the time to even try to understand the suggestions I'm trying to make. I'm growing weary of people arguing that changes to the game "ruin" it for countless players; if this were true, then the game could be said to have been ruined countless times over, starting with the AoE nerf that made Firestorm a lulzy skill.

Do you actually believe that? Just a guess on my part but I am pretty sure PvE made this game successful but only ANET knows those numbers.

You don't have to have faith in anything, knowledge of how GW started is enough.

Combining both made it's succes, and the original design, the 8 skills only, reversible attributes, fixed equipement. I.e. what's on the box

No player knows anything about which part is more played than the other so stop acting as if you knew.

You only know what you are in contact with everyday.

Guessing isn't part of an argument.

To the OP: Great ideas, all of them. Sadly, yes, I have willingly run in groups with uber paragons, and I run Sabway on both my E/Me and my W/Mo. Even though I do like the effectiveness of both of them, I do agree that they are a bit too powerful. Sabway steamrolls, and Imbagons make you near invincible. Even though it would affect my gameplay in (for me, at least,) a negative way, I /sign this fully.

Also, just throwing this out there, but might want to lightly tap [skill]Pain Inverter[/skill] with the nerf stick. It pwns bosses too much, IMO.

Yea, and I am a ranger and I have noticed that Barrage seems to kill enemies a little too quickly, lets give that a nerf, while we are at it, lets nerf Ineptitude for my mesmer, it seems too strong too, and Searing flames too, my Ele kills too fast, also lets not forget Spiteful Spirit, my Necro should not be able to weild so much power, Kill MM's too, its like mowing the lawn, My warrior is too strong with Defy Pain, we need that nerfed too, Oh yeah, My dervish has the avatars, they remind me too much of ursan, so hit them hard too. How dare anet make a game that is so easy to play, I am an elite player and have earned my way up the top and I hate it when people dont work as hard as I have....Nerf...Nerf...Nerf. Lets go even further, remove all skills from the game and give everyone brass knuckles, balance in PVE will finally be possible and I will have suceeded in making Guild Wars the way I think others will enjoy it!

I think single player games with cheat codes would suit you more...

If the PvP people have taught us anything is - just because something can be countered, doesn't mean it's balanced.

I would have to agree most of the pve balance comes in from the AI control.

I like the post, but one quirky thing about it that I don't like too much is the idea of removing the minion limit at 16 death, which would severely imbalance monster mobs that spawn minions (like summit summoners in slavers). This would ruin game balance on both the monster side and player side.

I agree that the current function of Soul Reaping is quirky as hell, and severely imbalanced for both PvE and PvP. It should definitely be looked at and redesigned. Here are some proposed changes to SR I've been pondering on:

CURRENT STATE OF SR (according to wiki):

Soul Reaping is the Necromancer primary attribute, so only characters that are primary Necromancers can put points into Soul Reaping. It works by giving you X energy whenever creatures die nearby, where X is the Soul Reaping attribute rating. This effect will only trigger three times per fifteen seconds. If your energy bar is full when the effect triggers, it won't count towards the 3 times per 15 seconds limit.

~As you can see, even the description of SR in it's current state sounds quirky. Here are some proposed changes that might help stabilize SR as a primary attribute line:

THE HELMOS PROPOSED NEW STATE OF SR:

Soul Reaping is the Necromancer primary attribute, so only characters that are primary Necromancers can put points into Soul Reaping. It works by giving you X energy whenever you exploit a corpse or use spells that sacrifice health. However, if too much energy is drained through the use of sacrifice, the Necromancer may suffer the effects of Reaper's Strain and deal harmful effects to their own bodies. This effect scales with Soul Reaping as follows:

~For every 3 ranks of Soul Reaping you gain +2 energy each time you exploit a corpse or sacrifice health.

~If a Necromancer Reaps energy more than once within a 5 second period through health sacrifice they will be effected by a special status called Reaper's Strain (which is denoted by a special icon in the Necromancer's hex/condition indicator). Reaper's Strain is a status that will last for 5 seconds after it is triggered. Any sacrifice skills used during this time will additionally cause the Necromancer to only gain 50% of the energy they normally gain through Soul Reaping and afflict a random condition. Casting sacrifice skills through Reaper's Strain also causes it to refresh for an additional 5 seconds.

Point Scaling:
3 SR = +2 nrg
6 SR = +4 nrg
9 SR = +6 nrg
12 SR = +8 nrg
15 SR = +10 nrg

Here is a complete list of skill that exploit corpses:

Blood Magic

* Well of Blood
* Well of Power

Death Magic

* Animate Flesh Golem
* Animate Bone Fiend
* Animate Bone Minions
* Animate Bone Horror
* Animate Shambling Horror
* Animate Vampiric Horror
* Consume Corpse
* Necrotic Traversal
* Putrid Explosion
* Soul Feast
* Well of Suffering
* Well of the Profane

Curses

* Well of Darkness
* Well of Silence
* Well of Weariness
* Well of Ruin

Here is another list of skills that sacrifice health:

BLOOD MAGIC:

Barbed Signet (8%)
Blood Renewal (25%)
Blood Ritual (17%)
Blood is Power (33%)
Blood of the Aggressor (5%)
Dark Fury (17%)
Dark Pact (10%)
Demonic Flesh (20%)
Jaundiced Gaze (10%)
Offering of Blood (20%)
Order of Pain (17%)
Order of the Vampire (17%)
Signet of Agony (10%)
Touch of Agony (10%)
Wallow's Bite (10%)
Defile Flesh (10%)

CURSES:

Enfeebling Blood (10%)
Lingering Curse (10%)
Meekness (17%)
Plague Sending (10%)
Blood of the Master (5+%)

DEATH MAGIC:

Verata's Aura (33%)
Verata's Sacrifice (15%)
Order of Undeath (10+%)
Contagion (10...6%)

SOUL REAPING:

Wail of Doom (10%)

CHANNELING:

Offering of Spirit (10%)

RESTORATION:

Spirit Light (17%)
Generous Was Tsungrai (10%)


This new setup of Soul Reaping will allow the necromancer to gain energy through their primary attribute by depending on the unique nature of necromancer skills in health sacrifice and corpse exploitation; rather than causing a necromancer to abuse a broken and quirky counter system as seen in the current state of Soul Reaping. In order to prevent Necromancers from abusing quick recharging sacrifice skills (like dark pact) in order to gain an unlimited amount of energy, the new status "Reaper's Strain" bottlenecks abusive energy gain by cutting gained energy by half and damaging the Necro's body with a slew of random conditions if they continue to push the envelope.

Reaper's Strain can also be used beneficially by necromancers in order to spawn random conditions and use skills like Contagion, Plague Touch, and Plague Sending in order to transfer them to the enemy while still gaining a few points of energy. However, this tactic is supported by my system and is balanced by the fact that the Necro is still sacrificing large amounts of health in order to spawn conditions and gain energy.

In order to support the new status and SR system, I would modify several skills as follows:

Consume Corpse: Reduce Energy Gained to 3-10.

Necrotic Transversal: You only gain 50% energy from Soul Reaping while using this skill.

Masochism: For 3...15 seconds (18s at 16 Soul Reaping) you gain +1 energy when sacrificing health. When under the effects of Reaper's Strain you only lose 25% of your gained energy and are not afflicted by conditions.

nerf =/= balance

The logic of this statement is undeniable imo hence I view this discussion as largely futile bordering on qqing.

If it was'nt the OP's currently relevant examples it would certainly be a variation on the same theme with whatever other builds or skills currently considered "imba" by the forum being discussed.I agree with the statements concerning player choice directly effecting opinion on PvE imbalance as really it's up to the individual as to how challenging or "balanced" they wish to make their individual PvE experience.

While these "imba" options are available a player is by no means forced to use them or without other options to make the PvE experience as challenging as they wish and as such I can only view the repeated objection to such options being available for others as either laziness on the part of the player to not directly alter the PvE difficulty themselves through not using such builds/skills or frustration in that they simply can't accept other players have the option to choose a less challenging path which comes across as a ridiculously selfish attitude given the medium.

PvE is what you make it and I really struggle to see how people using so-called "imba" options effects my game when I have the choice not to and to me all players should have some degree of freedom and control in this regard as opposed to a regimental and demanded skill level largely dictated by veteran players who are on 24/7.

In saying I would concede that the ease of titles and loot garnering is obviously effected but I personally admit not really caring about those aspects of the game.

It's the question of why ANet provides such options in the first place.

If ANet provided a skill that just gave you all items in the game and cleared the entire area of monsters, I wouldn't care if you used it. I'm concerned with why ANet is implementing it.

You want to see Imbalance? Be a rogue in WoW, or a ToS or ranger in AoC. That's imbalance. I've seen a guy get one-shotted by a ranger TWO LEVELS higher than him in AoC!

The more I play other games, the more I see just how good the GW model is. Other games use a 20-sided die to decide adjustments.

edit: might have rogues mixed up, but I know about AoC. They nerf classes that need help, and make others more imbalanced. It's a version of WoW that is prettier and breaks your comp.

Rogues are imbalanced : o?

On second thought, I shouldn't be talking too much since I mostly look at things in a raiding perspective.

Perhaps it's the bosses that need nerfing, since Pain Inverter is only as strong as the foe you use it on (and you don't get much more overpowered than caster bosses!)...

Agree with Cutter. Tone down bosses and Pain Inverter stops being so overpowered.

What you think is irrelevant, the pve part has a larger player base.

Pain inverter destroys anything that pumps out multiple hit effects. Elementalists, ritualists, warriors, rangers, dervishes all get blown up by it easily. In fact bosses are less prone to it relative to their absolute power due to the 80 damage cap and the fact that lesser creatures get their damage effectively pumped up by the multiplier.

To me the answer seems simple.

Access to as much content as possible to as much of the player base as possible (especially with GW2 release getting closer) the end result being more people purchasing and playing GW for overall longer durations.

In terms of pure business logic it makes perfect sense to me.

I agree there should be certain areas or content that are without doubt restricted to those that have the "skill" or experience to get through them which is why I'm certainly not a fan of Ursanway yet I also understand the logic behind such skills and the justification behind having them as a player specific option especially when considering I, as a player, have the choice not to use them.

At the end of the day Anet is trying to cater to and please the majority of it's players and customers as opposed to the minority of veterans who qq about PvE balance all day long on forums like this while wishing for levels that take 3 days to complete which require the skill dexterity and micro of an octopus on meth.As previously stated by Skye Marin there will always be skills or builds that many view as "imba" regardless of any changes or updates Anet makes merely due to them being the most logical option available to the player at the time to attain maximum ease or effectiveness in-game.

It seems pretty simple to me and the cyclic futility and repetition of the cry of "imba!!!....nerf!!!" every time the latest optimum build or skill set is worked out seems to be a infinite issue to me that can, by the very mechanics of the game, never be fixed enough to please the majority of players that take the time to complain.

They'll just find the next most optimum and popular build or skill set....rinse....repeat....

Maybe but that doesn't tell us what made the success of guild wars. Saying "it's PvE" means nothing, it's the gameplay that made it successful. Which is present in both pvp and pve.