PvE Balance - Part 2

I don't understand the problem with Sabway. It's a team build that can be used effectively by heroes without having to be micro'd to hell. It's not exactly God Mode. It soon turns to crap in low-corpse areas anyway.

It's PvE. who the hell cares if team build "X" is better than team build "Y"? (for certain areas)

People that can't run Y for various reasons and X is not used.

To appease those who wanted challenge in their PvE. Those who didn't want more of a challenge in their PvE could stay on Normal Mode. Now, the point of Hard Mode is voided because the difficulty can be turned into Normal Mode.

If you want an example, it would be like playing God of War on the hardest difficulty setting (God mode) and being given a weapon at the beginning of the game that gives you quadruple damage and health. Kind of silly in that respect, isn't it?

Fire? There was never "fire" there to begin with, just stupid. And in order to fight that stupid you just had to be smart and skilled. Now you don't have to be. So yes, in a sense it's "fire vs. fire" in that reality that it's now an anti-climatic battle of "stupid vs. stupid".

I used fire vs. fire to explain ursan. As skillful play , in a guild group maybe , in pugs it was about the holy trinity.
Removing ursan won't fix the problem of terrible class balance , or the problem of enviromental effects that are supposed to "challenge" the players. Ursan is a minor flaw compared to those. PvP is challenging because both sides have the same resources , while in pve one side has all skills , brains (arguable) , real teamwork , team synergy vs. higher level , insane attributes , gimped bars and the intelligence of a toe. Challenging , no. Fun , yes.

why would you want to balance so many things in pve ? if you don't want to use imbalanced skills, nobody forces you to use them


pve doesn't need to be balanced as it's just a matter of brute force, if monsters were really intelligent and balanced, your post would make sense, but it's not the case

anet clearly showed us what was "high end pve" : huge groups of lvl 30 monsters with infinite energy that can kill you in two hits, and broken environmental effects

that's precisely why you can't nerf sabway, tanking builds and imbagons, they are the only viable options to dispose of those masses of overpowered and stupid monsters


if you want to play against intelligent opponents, pvp is the way to go, not pve


pve has never required to be "smart and skilled" because opponents are totally predictable, you just need to find the specific build and how to use it

I dont understand why want to have a balanced pve , when GW is supposed to be a pvp game , we dont have some extremely hard encounters as most of the other mmo has. I think pve is for just learning the basics , couse theres no good pvp tutorial. See I understand the people who want a challenging pve like in the other games , but theres one big flaw in the game - its not that much rewarding as it should. Without farming and just playing the you cant make the money to buy armor , weapons , runes , insignia and weapon upgrades u need to play , its ridiculous - the loot scaling , the times u get almost no loot while somebody gets almost all , the thing that most of the gold items we get are no worth to be sold to players , not enough storage space , no ingame auction house... and you want a balanced game in pve ... i think that this will never happen so just calm and keep on playing whatever youre playing

The problem occurs when team build "X" is better than all other existing builds - everywhere.

But it doesn't apply. Fire vs. Fire would be human opponents facing each other. In order to have something like this it would require an AI overhaul the likes gaming has never seen.

You seem to excuse Ursan because it puts you on even ground with the monsters, but the computer has been disadvantaged from the start: You're a person, it's an AI. Right there you'll always have the one up on it.

Ursan is just the first step of many. The reason it's the one so often discussed is because it's the biggest and most strikingly concerning move ANet has ever made to PvE.

Most people want Ursan removed, true. But they want many, many other changes as well. It's just that Ursan entirely trumps them in numerous aspects, including balance and gamebreaking issues.

The "don't like, don't use" doesn't work here no more. Ignoring problems doesn't excuse them.

If you truly believe they are the "only viable options" to beat these areas, then you need to adjust your outlook.

If PvE was as simple and easy as this, UB and all these other overpowered facets wouldn't need to exist.

While I agree that the Imbagon is major problem in allowing people to steamroll PvE, I don't think the nerf to [[save yourselves] you proposed would fix the problem-instead of paragons abusing it, you'd have warriors abusing it (as someone already pointed out).

I do like Racthoh's idea of making SY! more effective depending on close you are to the shouter.

But an easier method of nerfing this is adding in a recharge-nothing overly serious, but just enough to make it still viable but not spammable.

What I propose is give SY! a recharge of 1s or 2s. This will prevent the spammability of it, and prevents it from being able to be up 24/7 (unless you have a high Kurz/Lux rank).

As for the "infinite minion" idea-I don't think this is the way to go to reduce IMBA in PvE. If anything this would create more. However, I do like the idea that the number of minions you have scales with Death magic.

[DE], that's not even the point. There are way better builds than Sabway.
The problem is when you abuse SR, as this build does.
Things die, you get energy.
You die, others get energy.
A minion die, you get energy.
You spam high energy spells on recharge that's the "problem".

Some of the posts in this thread are so terrible. "Don't like it don't use it" is coming up yet again even though it has been smashed over in over in other threads.

When ELITE areas of the game on HARD mode become so EASY to the point where they are SOLOABLE or done easily by NEWBIES TO CASUAL PLAYERS with OVERPOWERED crap, the game not only has a balance problem, but is quite simply a bad game. The fact that some people can't see that this is a problem is beyond belief.

Guild Wars has simply become the HoM farming ground for Guild Wars 2. Most intelligent people have moved well beyond the fact that the game is broken, to now discussing WHY it has happened.

When I do something with many steps , I always do the hardest , removing ursan from the game is the easiest thing anet can do.

Yes but that AI can do damage with one spell while some teams whole builds do that amount of damage , and has many other advantages , rather than being a person.

You just explained why ursan exists.

Removing ursan wouldn't fix any problems , it would just create more problems than those now. Removing the need for ursan , and giving better rewards for skillful play (HM doesn't take more skill than NM) would require a complete overhaul. Letting things go with the flow , and putting more effort in GW2 is much more advisable than "fixing" things now.

PvE is casual play , whoever thinks different lives in denial. Either enjoy pve now , switch to pvp for challenging play , or GTFO If by your opinion GW is a bad game , then why are you playing it ,or even worse , tell other people how to play the game?

...because, as it stands, Ursan is the most gamebreaking entry into the game. It's the largest contradiction to what made Guild Wars the unique package it was.

Then in that case, you preprot, prebuff, etc. Hell, I already thought up of the counter to that "insane" spell: Protective Spirit (which in itself is another problem altogether).

Because it's not required? Wha?

I can understand Ursan existing "for the poor pugs", but making changes that affect the game as a whole based off of an inexperienced group is, as been stated by another poster here before, akin to "making skill balances based entirely off of RA".

And another edit:

Normal Mode is casual play. You've still provided no solid reason for making the harder difficulty easier.

Therein lies the fundemental problem with your entire argument. Elite areas and hard mode are NOT and SHOULD NOT be for casual play. I don't know how you ever got that idea.

I rarely play it anymore due to the inbalanced crap that infested the game. I am here simply telling people that it used to be much better than this.

You said it yourself. PvE is for casual play. What kind of casual player would want to grind to be able to join a PuG and play? Anyone who grinds like that just to join PuGs can't call himself a casual player.

As for switching to PvP for challenging play, guess what? People who didn't want to move on advanced onto Hard Mode, which was a treat to those people. People who are against Ursan aren't "Telling others how to play", moreso trying to fix the game itself because they care. Ursan goes against the game's original design to boot, and you need to grind just to joina group. Seriously, that's *Red Engine*'d up.

Also, elite areas and Hard Mode were for people who would actually devote time to completing them. It was a difficulty switch, not a difficulty switch then slap 1 skill on your bar, have a pre-made bar and mash to victory regardless of where you are.

You can't blame people for actually giving a shit about it.

I was referring to Ursan and Imbagon but okay.

FYI took me more than three months to max norn , my first only max title , and probably the last.

I don't.

No HM , titles , elite areas , monster skills and enviroment effects go against the original game design more than ursan. PvE was something like a CRPG , now (even before ursan) it became a grind fest.

Who said HM was harder , it's more stupid and demanding , it would be harder if the monsters had different bars , different mob groups etc. I don't look at the monsters in HM as more challenging or harder , I look at them as more resilient sheeps to the slaughter than in NM , the obstacle in getting that red helm gold. It's not hard , it's boring. That's why I rarely do anything in HM.

I would be okay if only skilled people completed elite areas like many here said it should be , but in GW's case before ursan only certain professions had that privilege , not the difference if the player was skillful or not.

3 months? That's alot of time you know.

I was talking about the pre-made bar bit.

It's harder in HM. More numbers make it harder, but who said it was hard? Hard Mode was a letdown, and I'm not denying that, but the point still stands that Hard Mode is a treat to those players. Oh yeah, it's also the shoddy AI aswell as skill bars.

Now you have to grind, when you could've simply ran variations then. It's a vicious circle is it not?

At least with professions you have to play your character's role and not some buttonmashing piece of shit that has no bar comprehension whatsoever, and is powered on grind. The least they could've done is not tighten it up with grind.

MY brother was almost constantly kicked out of FoW groups because he didn't have splinter weapon , how is that a variation?
The thing with roles ,not every profession had a role.
I agree with the grind thing.

Tbh I would love to see a nerf to UB , but without proof that somethings else is going to change except that doesn;t give me the feeling that game will be better. A 12 man size for all elite areas would be nice without increasing the difficulty of the area. After all the 8 slots have been taken and all the tank&spank roles filled , some of the outsider professions might have a chance to jump in.

I suppose he was joining a Barrage group?

A typical bar in a Barrage / Pet group usually consists of Barrage and Splinter Weapon. This is common knowledge.

Either way, if he was a Ritualist, that skill should seriously go on your bar. It is afterall the most powerful AoE force in the game.

He was a ranger with proph only skills , he got kicked of many groups because of that.

can we close this thread? the suggested balancing by the OP is so bad it hurts to read them.

I fix'd this for you as you clearly had it backwards...

This is too easy to bash.....
I tihnk I'll go play Bear Nerfer 5000X with the expansion Bear hunter 2 on trippy map with all the rly big lvl spawns and bosses.

If Ursan is nerfed, the next most powerful build will take it's place, and PuG exclusion will still be there because people don't like to fail whatever task they're doing. Farming for high-end and rare items isn't bad, and I'm sure there are other builds and teams that can complete the high end areas just as well without Ursan. Title grind and Hard Mode were introduced as a way to expand the end-game for those who don't want to move on to PvP, and PvE skills were introduced to help soften the blow of PvP nerfs and help players against L30 mobs with environment effects.

Those of you crying about "STOP TELLING ME HOW TO PLAY THE GAME" need to stop with the strawmen. I'm not telling you how to play the game. It's perfectly fine if you want to use cons and PvE skills - do it in normal mode. That's the whole point of normal mode. Hard mode doesn't add any content - it is purely a difficulty change; so if you can't handle the difficulty, why are you playing in that mode? What's the point of adding a higher difficulty and then dumbing it down so any moron can do it?

The argument of "I should be able to play however I want" is ridiculous to begin with. How about this? I think I should be able to kill all enemies in one hit. I also think that I should be able to get all rewards in the game for free. The argument can be extended ad infinitum; by this line of reasoning, Anet should change the game so that everyone has access to everything, all the time.

What's the argument against adopting my other hypotheticals - giving all players permanent Chimera of Intensity and 8 elite skills? That's the way I want to play, so I should be allowed to right? Why is Anet stopping me?

But sure, I'll do one better. Anet doesn't have to touch the current Hard Mode. They can add a new mode - an actual hard mode - with cons and PvE skills disabled.

Why do you uber players care so much if other people have an easier time with the-God-forsaken-balls-droppering-baby-punching HARD MODE?

Its not more of the fact that it's easy for them, it's that you people cant get by with the fact the UBER ELITE AREAS are now being done by normal not-super-hardcore gamers. Honestly, whats the big deal about it? Its really actually funny to think that you people storm around pissed that somebody else is having a fun time.

And this ursan deal, who says ursan has to be maxed to use it. Ive gotten rank3 ONLY from playing GWEN and use it all the time in hard mode. No, it's not a grind fest at all, it's fun. My reward? Helmets turning gold, map being uncovered, titles going up.

Most of the people that play guild wars or use URSAN don't post on forums- and I can almost gaurantee that if you go into the general population and say "WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY URSAN" most people wouldn't say anything. Not because they dont dissagree, which they do, but they think youre a moron, and a moron who shouldn't be bothered talking with.

Drop it, you e-peen peeners, just because you WONT be the few and the proud with the bonus stuff in GW2 doesn't mean that the entire game should have an overhaul.

These other builds you talk about- imbagon- never heard of them, except sabway. Which I use all the time. It's nice, there are EASILY better builds, but I dont want to take the time looking up what to use where. Guild Wars has no subscription fee for a reason- Casual Play. After beating the games, why should I become an uber player? I want casual play, I want to play what I havn't accomplished yet. Hard mode.

Stop being pissy over the "super imba game" while you have the option of not using the super imba skillz.

gg.

Freke, I secound that.
Well mods, you should now close this before it gets all burnt and flakey.

As long as Ursan encourages grouping (which it does), Anet won't touch it. They're pretty fanatical about "encouraging" people to group (the hero limit, henchmen being idiots, etc), after all...

I like basketball. Do you like basketball? What if you were really good at basketball, like really good at it. You go to the NBA and start to make the big bucks and then... they decide to change the rules of basketball - the game is now dumbed down to be so easy that the NBA players can play at their peak but 5th graders will still play just as well as them. I'd be a bit mad if I were you.

Horribly bad and utter ridiculous comparison aside the problem with the current state of the PvE game is the fact that subpar players are able to play at the same level as real experienced players. Johnny Wammo, decked out in his full FoW set with r6 KOABD still thinks mending is a good idea for his skill bar - but he ran ursan with PUGS instead. He certainly doesn't deserve those titles now does he? Now don't get me wrong - I'm all for average and bad players being able to complete elite areas and gain the same titles - however when all the players have to do is mash 1, 2, and 3 on recharge there most certainly is a problem.

While the separation of PvE and PvP skills was nice, Anet took it in seemingly the wrong direction - I'm okay with them bringing back some old skills so that they can see at least some play. But buffing already fine skills for the sake of Johnny Wammo being able to do BIG DOMOGE is just dumb. Buffs aren't the only things updates can do. What PvE balance really needs right now is some nerfs.

This is what happens when you get a generation of kids raised in the Era of Entitlement. "What is wrong with average players getting to finish elite areas?" If you really have the testicular fortitude to utter that, or any other facsimile of idiocy, I feel sorry for you. Let's change the Olympic medals from gold, silver and bronze, to blue ribbons that say "You are Special, no matter what place you finish."

They have this kind of system with teachers, where their pay is based SOLELY on how long they've been in, once they make tenure, which takes 3-5 years. In other words, you are rewarded just for time put in. Wonder why the US is last in education among industrialized nations? When you reward mediocrity, you kill ingenuity and create an atmosphere which stifles challenge and devalues achievement. "Skill>time played", anyone? Anyone calling someone "elitist" for demanding that challenging areas/modes be challenging has never had a real challenge in their life. Otherwise, this concept wouldn't elude so many. I feel sorry for you.

You aren't getting it. Guild Wars has ALREADY had an overhaul that people are angry about. Many people spent their money for one thing and then completely got something else.

LOL. Hard mode was never created for casual players. It was created for people who want the additional challenge. I can show several sources if neccessary.

Let me be the first to say..."Aw Geez not this shit again". (Your argument has been destroyed 1000 times).

Which is why they buffed all the skills that allow people to easily solo elite areas. Makes perfect sense!

Why do I think they won't touch overpowered garbage? Because they want HoM farmers to buy Guild Wars 2. Simple as that. The theory is so sound that it hasn't even been touched yet.

I find this post interesting because myself and a few other necromancers (notably Chthon) have been posting (read: screaming) similar solutions to SR for months and months now. Apparently, others experienced players are also looking into it and coming up with similar solutions, which tells me that we were on the right track.

This change alone alone shuts down the SR 'sharing' engine. It forever BREAKS any possibility of SR abuse either in PvE or PvP. Passively generating raw energy for OTHER players is a bad, bad idea.

Marry me.

This is the first time I have seen someone outside the necromancer community propose removing the timer abomination. Bravo. I think people are starting to understand why the timer is a fundamentally bad idea.

It breaks any coordination between USE of energy and the GENERATION of said energy. You can't plan your skill usage because you can't rely on SR as an energy source. Receiving energy RANDOMLY over a 15 second window does not encourage good gameplay, especially in a build like MM. MM is essentially a 'web-effects' build. Your focus is NOT on other players/monsters, it's on maintaining the 'web' as best as possible. This requires planning your skill usage carefully, which is not possible when SR triggers can't be relied upon.

Before the SR timer, when running as a human MM, I continuously had my spells planned out 5-10 casts deep. I knew what the next 10 spells were going to be and coordinated those spells with my SR returns. With the timer, my spell depth is 1, maybe 2 spells deep. This is because I CAN'T plan any deeper, because I don't KNOW if SR will trigger or not.

Minions spells have their energy costs pro-rated for the strong ability of SR. But when SR doesn't trigger, those spells become EXORBITANTLY expensive and can wreck an entire batch of minions with a single miscast spell.

The timer also completely breaks the corpse-exploitation synergy that CLEARY exists between SR and Death Magic.

The timer has GOT to go.

This change is targeted at stopping secondary abuse, I understand, but all it really does is discourage secondary use at all on a Necro. The obvious example would be on an MM running Heal Area (or GoLE). SR was the problem not HA or GoLE.

The previous point (removing SR hits from minions) essentially solves this issue. I'm not really worried about the case when your teams is mowing down monsters left and right. Clearly, other factors are in play there and SR isn't a cornerstone of those those scenarios.

It's also a wonky solution similar to the SR Timer. I resist those in general.


I can't believe I am going to say this, but I am just not a fan of removing the minion cap. It could be raised for sure, to say 16, but eliminating it is not good for the game. Here's why:

The original argument against the cap was that unlimited minions follows the skill>time philosophy of GW. Anyone could raise 20 minions, but really skilled players could raise 100. I vehemently argued this point at the time. However, I'm a better player now than I was then and I see that this would be just as IBMA as SY and Ursan are now. 100 minions rolls ANYTHING.

Now you could argue that BotM has a built-in cap, but:
a) It's not a 'skill-based' cap, it's a hard cap just like the Minion Cap.
b) there is always the possibility of another minion healing strategy being invented (and fueled by the SR of 100 minions)

Although inelegant, a hard cap works best here. Maybe raise the cap, but 16 would be max IMHO.

Finally, raising the minion cap is unrelated to Sabway and it's nerfing. Keep the solutions targeted and minimal.

Here is the best possible SR solution:

• Minions do not trigger SR.
• Remove SR timer.
• Reduce costs of Animation spells dramatically.

This solves ALL the major SR problems and is unexploitable.

Utterly unrelated. Keep the solutions targeted and minimal. You have every right to ask for this as a separate item, but it ISN'T related to the Sabway issue.

...and Ether Renewal eles will be the new MMs. No ty. If only your own minions can trigger SR, maybe, or they can trigger it but the energy is capped at low level. messy

Changing mechanics won't solve the problems you're listing, and won't change the game to the way you might want it. You can be upset about Ursan, but you should suggest ways to solve the problems that won't take away other people's enjoyment of the game, and instead, add to the game. If PvE skills are removed from Hard mode, then that is unfair to those who haven't started hard mode, versus those who have already finished it and want more titles.

I've discussed this same theory before plenty of times, and I think it's valid. What Anet then should do is give a challenge to those who want it, and reward them for it, without taking anything away from anyone else. Read my idea here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10299371

In short, make a new level of challenge, like Hard Mode, but with no PvE-skills, heroes/henches, or any consumables allowed. Rewards are increased (all locked chests drop golds). All skills are PvP counterparts when neccessary, and certain specific considerations are taken into account to combat tank n' spank, minion masters, and solo farming builds. Read it, and tell me what you think.

Another post to waste the time of others....calling for nerfs here and there.

Why the hell all the cries for Balance in PvE all the time? Are you being made that poor by others now playing the game to again cry out to nerf what they use?

I've a Paragon, do I use "godmode"? No I don't. I've done all 3 campaigns and am a L3 survivor, but I didnt make my self uber-powerful to do it.

Nerf Sabway? Hang on, isn't that just a clever combination of professions and skills to meet an end? The builds of which are tinkered by so many from the base that any combination can be good enough? Hell I use N/Es in Zaishen Challenge to farm Balth faction... is that also something to be nerfed?

I agree that there are some things in the game that can be overpowering when multiples are added together. Ursan is not on it's own, 5 ursans 2 monks and a paragon can be yes.... what about 5 W/Es with conjure and hundred blades? They can spike like hell too you know.... Or add in the Dragonslash builds with unlimited adrenaline to keep spamming skills...

Pvxwiki has loads of builds that seem to get the job done and imbalance PvE in one way or another, but always comes to some skills to get complained at.... when they are gone, what is next on your list?

I have logged over 11,0000 hours on Guildwars and I don't get upset by all these other people being able to do things..... it's not harmful, hell 5,000,000 or so people play guildwars (well own it...).... a small handful of people seem to be very upset all the time and want to change this and change that.... I bought the game to play and enjoy, and what isn't enjoyable is when people cry out to change things because they don't like it.... Anet see the game as a whole and people slam them for "you should do this" but I can bet they know what they need to do and how things are affecting the game. Ursan been there for nearly a year, has it really broken the game all that time.....? I say no... it's allowed more and more to experience more... as the game should allow them.....

Yea, and N/Rt put the Necro MM out of business didn't it? Nope.

The energy returns of SR will be more than sufficient, in fact, they'll probably be more than is currently available. Necro MMs don't need SR to trigger on minions, if the costs of the Animate spells are approximately halved.

Another thread in which an "elite" player wants to decide how other players should be playing, according to his own vision.

There are no "problems" in PvE.
PvE is just for fun. Players log and spend 1-2 hours killing monsters.
Sabway is fun, paragons are fun, Ursan is stupid but fun.

Sha Noran, I'd like to know what kind of game is "balanced" in your opinion.
And I would like to know what is, in you mind, how people should be playing the game you have in your mind.

Sha Noran, you don't want to "balance" the game.
You are simply envious of other people fun.
You want them to play like you decide they must play.

I'm frankly disgusted with this attitude.
This is not your game.
And it's a videogame, that we play for fun and just to relax.
We don't live in Guild Wars.
Get a life and let other people enjoy and have fun.

Excuse me, but if I want 1-2 hours of mindless killing with 7 other people, I would go to Diablo 2. Really. And If I want to at least pretend to create new builds and enjoy them, I will play GW... or at least I played because of it.

Have you thought about people that can't join ursanjerks? Either because they don't have time to make r10 norn, don't have place for monk (delete a char/buy new slot? Some people don't have, like myself, credit card with advanced option of changing currency, and if someone loves his 9 characters... why should he be FORCE to give up on one of them?), don't have EotN (again, forcing people to buy add-on is WRONG), or just don't find it entertaining to mash buttons with their foreheads?

Oh, so people forming groups "LF R10/R8 ONLY 2 CONSETS!!" don't want me to play like THEY want. Okay. Cool.

So, wait, I payed for this game and I'm forced to use ursan or play only with my guild? I feel ripped of right now.

But hard mode IS harder.
Ursan UW in NM and Ursan UW in HM. Neither might be HARD, but hard mode IS harder. (There are people who find normal mode hard - so we can't really use an absolute term of difficulty - whereas "hard mode" does meet the criteria for it's existence - it IS harder then the other mode!)
The game might not be hard enough for you. And if that bores you - you might want to switch games.

And could we please once again stop with the whole "Don't like it - don't use it-argument being invalid"-crap?
A.Net is the judge in this matter. They will weight the pro's and cons - and then decide (that is IF they want to - and they have absolute right to NOT want to!).
And what we have here is one of the parties (that is NOT A.Net!) telling the other party which arguments they can or can't use. Now you can do that - but all you are doing is wasting your breath because it has no practical meaning.
So we have a game where:
- we have instanced play and what goes on in that instance does not shape how play in other instances takes place
- everyone has the ability to shape their play in their instance to their liking
and
- everything that is achieved in that instance is completely personal
so if something is not to their liking (in terms of components that they can have influence on) - they have the ability to balance themselves.
Which is the point of DLDU.
Now - the problem that was also presented is that DLDU actively shuts down a discussion. This might be an issue IF the whole point of one side wasn't that the so called problem ISN'T a big enough of an issue to warrant a discussion. And that is the point that should be able to come across also.

I can already hear people screaming - OMG!1 Fine, then give me a skill that kills of all foes on the map, and gives me 250 ectos/shards for each kill! DLDU!11!!1
Do I feel that that idea is moronic?
Yes, I do.
Did A.Net state that they won't listen to moronic ideas?
No.

Tough luck.


Edit:
The people are telling you how they want you to play IF you want to play with them.
You ALWAYS have the option to NOT play with them.