[Dev Update] Shadow Form Balance Changes - 2 July 2008

QFT, because maintaining shadow form is not a lot different from 55'ing; in essence the 55 build also ''breaks the balance of the game'' by forcing you to only take 5 damage per hit from prot spirit and filling it up with regen. I don't get how, if SF is broken, 55 isn't? Nor 600, which is practically invincible too. Also it's not like SF is invincibility; touch skills, PBAOE, any signets and such all go through it ( i know we've all been squished by traps and Charged Blackness with [Shock] before) not to mention Twisting Jaws. I used to farm with Shadow Form long before the buff anyway, using [shadow of haste] + [dash] to get in and teleport out of danger, using [Sliver Armor] to make the kills.

I'd honestly prefer it if they just reverted the chaos plains back to how they were and lowered the duration of SF again. All you'd need to do is duo farm A/Me with someone else, right? something along the lines of [Arcane Echo] + [Arcane Mimicry] + [Deadly Paradox] + [Shadow Form] ?

Because if you are 55 and 10 monsters hit you at the same time, you die. If it's hard mode, you will die FOR SURE. Same goes for 600, which can survive 2 times more enemies (spirit bond ~8 monsters, 600 hp means 10 monsters on HM). But 600 was nerfed once. Twice if you count SoA 1/4 second to 1 second.

Oh, and both can be interrupted with an attack skill. And both die if ANY of their skills gets interrupted. Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Spell Breaker, Shield of Absorption... Either kills ya.

Oh, and degen > 55.

And you deal damage how?

Give me back my shadowform and just totally nerf chaosplanes so it's impossible to farm UW solo. I want all my A/E farms back.

i heard shield of absorbtion and shielding hands are good in a 55 farming build

But then you have to give up at one of the skills or e-management. Sure, you can replace Healing Breeze, but then degen > 55 > new 55.

From the perspective of the player who asks "how can I go stomp on the game's hardest content?" the distinction is irrelevant. From the perspective of the dev who asks "how can I fix my game that's so broken with bears jumping up and down on my endgame content?" the distinction is highly relevant, for exactly the reasons you point out:

I think the big lesson to take away here -- and it's not a heartening one -- is that GW is so hard to learn to play well that the devs don't even know how to teach someone. They chose to bypass the curve because they didn't know how to flatten it.

Thank you a-net, about time

Prophecies was only "challenging" because they were constantly handicapping you (no full parties until Dragon's Lair or max armor until Drok's, henchmen complete idiots, etc)

I would go one step further in saying that, at the time Factions came out the Skill Devs really did not care about the learning curve, they where all preoccupied with PvP and the balance of the game for the sake of Tournaments.
Then when the focus changed over to PvE they never really looked in to it again. They took for granted that you knew how to play allready.
I think that DoA was a wake up call for them, and all of a sudden they had to figure out a way to make up for the lack of skill in the game, hence do we now have the EOTN Blessings.

bah.....so what next we going to nerf...how about rez sig?

Or teh overpowered awsomeness of mending

[Ether Nightmare] [Cry of Pain] damage, [Spirit of Failure] for energy

Alright time to use real life means to crash the ecto price. I've had enough. muhahahahahah


Wait for it...

That's pretty energy extensive. And slow. 4-7 degen + 100 dmg every 15 seconds... Well, it will take like 4 minutes to kill a spawn. I know, dual.. but requires cooperation. Oh and I don't know if it will be even possible, I mean you still need a running skill to get past traps and you have only SoF for energy.

I agree.

The fact that GW is an online, party-based game makes the learning problem even more complicated, for several reasons. The most obvious complication is the direct complexity that any sort of party system adds - you don't just have to learn how to play your own character, you have to learn how to play your character in the context of a 4/6/8-man team. Further, this isn't a 'team' in the way Diablo 2 had 'teams' - it isn't just a group of players getting together and all doing more-or-less the same thing (destroying face), but a group of players that each have their own roles.

The less-obvious, indirect complexity is the fact that rate of learning often depends on who you interact with. There are many examples of this. Being 'carried' through a mission (or even the whole game) obviously teaches you nothing. Even more damaging, playing with other bad players may actually mislead you (e.g., frontline learns to bring heavy self-heal because their monks are terrible).

But on the other hand, I'd say the game didn't punish players hard enough for many obvious failures. How is it that players could get away with using Mending or Healing Breeze for so long? Why do we still encounter ridiculous builds like Flare rangers and Hamstorm? In a properly-design mission progression, these sorts of builds would have become untenable early-on.

As a side note, those of you showing open malice against those that hold ectos remind me of poor people with their petty jealousy against the rich. Wishing for ecto price crashes for the explicit reason of hurting the well-off is juvenile and idiotic, and does nothing to help your cause. And no, I'm not a member of the super-rich.

I think some people missed the bolded part and yes people have been handicapping themselves in pve games for a very long time and just for that fact, to make a more challenging game.

Examples: Mechwarrior 2: 21 Century Combat, Baldur’s Gate I & II, Icewind Dale I & II, and Guild Wars, (PvX wiki had a 6 skill build challenge).

So my suggestion of not using ursan (or whatever way you wish to handicap yourself) is a good argument since it only affects the minority of the players wanting a more challenging game and leaves the target market free to play the game in easy mode. It also created no greater reward then the feeling of accomplishment. I don’t like ursan and I don’t use it, but I do recognize it as the ultimate easy mode and as a way to help with title grinding. Do I get more gold or rare items at the end for not using, nope. Do I get a greater reward for not using it, yes I sure do because I got to play the game my way and had fun doing it.

You do realize that players using Ursan to do elite areas are not the idiots you think they are. The are using Ursan Blessing because it is the quickest way to the end goal. The UW Speedway team ursans are not the idiots and they are not just pressing C + spcae, +1, +2, +3, +4, they have to know what they are doing or the mission will fail. Now ask yourself this question, should we hurt the casual player because a bunch of hard-core players are using a skill to do elite areas quicker? If you say yes, congratulations you have just expressed the same train of thought that is exactly the reason PvE is in the shape it is now due to skill being adjusted only for PvP.

If you really want to balance ursan, create a monster skill in elite areas (UW, FoW, DoA and the 2 faction areas) that removes Ursan Blessing. I will be roflmao at all the Hard-core speed teams that have been abusing the skill just to get to the end goal quicker. Ursan Blessing isn’t the problem the same way Shadow Form wasn’t the problem, the problem has always been people using them as a quick way to get the reward. And don’t put the monster skill in EotN dungeons since that is where ursan was designed to be used.

I have to agree with what is said above. I too feel that ANET really didn't care about PvE and let it slowly deteriorate to the state that it is in now and trying to fix it now is going to be a major undertaking that they may not wish to invest the resources needed into such a project.

I wonder what would have happen if ANET had reviewed monster builds/ henchmen builds after they updated skills. Some henchmen skills that were ok are so bad now that I never take them anymore. Some monsters that were challenging at one time are now not even a concern. There are some elite skills that should not be elite anymore and some skills that should be elite skills (but that is just my opinion).

I also wish areas would be adjusted so people wanted a balance team that including all classes (even mesmers) instead of players just wanting 2 HB Monks, 1 Permasins, 2 R9+ Ursans, and 3 terra tanks or wanting 2 HB Monks and 6 R9+ Ursans.

and ecto are still dropping in price...

I bet I can drop the price more....1 day to payback

Yup, that's about all there is to it. I also find it interesting that this was nerfed, and Ursan still runs unchecked. The balance line is just a line at this point. :: shrug ::

The 55 build is broken due to a game mechanic allowing you to sac your health that low with multiple sup runes in the first place. All the skills work as intended when used in their normal setting at a normal health and under normal circumstances don't amount to a great deal by themselves, but combine them with the ability to sac yourself so you can out regen the damage aka 55hp, then thats where teh build becomes overpowered.

It is this and this reason alone that I have always said that its not a nerf to the skill set of the game, but the game mechanic of allowing multiple hp loss from the same type of sup rune is whats hurting the game. That and remove the -50 icon and you kill the 55 build in those 2 steps.

So they avoid 10+ pulls, same as a permasin avoids degen/bleeding/stuff that still hurts. The essence is the same, if permasin is so evil, then so is a 55/600.

You still use Healing Breaze now Mystic Regen is back to normal ? hihi
Degen ain't that bad either to handle with Mystic Regen.

Stop and ask yourself this question, "Why was the -50 hp Grim Cesta added to the game?" When I came to the only logical answer it was one of those "doh" moments.

55 and dying because you took on 10 enemies, not going to happen in hard mode because they will loose agro (except for the 3) before they over come you health regen. Just make sure they have a place to run and not against a left hand wall.

If you believe the conspiracy theories, the 55 Monk and the 600 Monk may have been developed by the developers or had help from developers.

It sure is a lot different as you can only go to certian places where your enchants can't be removed and in the UW the 55 needs a Necro.The 600 duel smite need 2 Monks one the tank and the other smiter.The Perma SF Sin can still solo the UW just other areas of the game which I would say is wrong they should partner it up just like most other farmers oh sure the W/Rt can solo but just the smites and some aataxes.So not like 55 solo farming but as I read further on it depends on what is being used SB or SoJ.

I do agree with your second paragraph though about SF Sins dueling it up as it would be the same as 55s as well as other team builds.This would create more balance in pve and wouldn't use Sins solely maybe something else.

Come on we can do it man. Everyone that is pissed by the sf nerf, DROP the ecto price even more. REVOLT!!!!!!

And along that line, given the fact that SF was returned to its original form by the buff and that the devs seem to have gone out of their way to keep it maintainable in the recent nerf (even at the expense of making it useless in many places), I think it is a reasonable assumption that they have meant all along for it to be able to be maintained.

I'm not saying that is a good thing, necessarily, but I think it is pretty obvious that that was how the skill was designed to work.

sorry.
apparently people don't like Sins being able to farm all the ectos in the earth? Well i didn't know when I did This.

ofc it doesn't matter to me, I'm just trying to make people smile however they want so I thought this might be the most appropriate place to reveal this and give some of the people that don't like the ecto situation (which is fine by me also) a little gratification.

Before i continue i'd like to point out that I am aware that all I did was make a thread about an idea, i'm fairly certain others had the idea also!

Anyway: I'm not a permasin, I'm a monk. My sin has less then 500k XP, before the change to SF I had done the run a total of 4 times and all of them were on that same day. I wasn't farming, I was just curious as to how it worked. So if it makes you feel better about the permasin situation to know that the fix was spread by someone who wasn't even aware of the situation until about 3 hours before the SF change happened! Enjoy!

This is post is just a revelation of a few things I find ironic and giggle worthy, I have no opinion on ecto prices, god mode, or anything else you do in your game!

The rumor I've heard is that it was added for PvP sac builds.

A proper 55 build can handle an infinite amount of enemies. Not sure where people get the 10 monster limits from. What a 55 can't handle is mesmers, which is the advantage of the permasin.

They are both a problem from the point of view of balance, but I suspect Anet left the 55ers alone because they DO bring down ecto prices. The days of ecto at 17k/ea were ridiculous.

That said...I would welcome ALL invinci-builds of all types being eliminated entirely. Mostly because it would FORCE people to adapt new builds and team modes. Just mix things up for a while, if it doesn't work itself out in 2 months, restore 55ers.

I agree, and there is nothing wrong with keeping it that way. It would be much better if there was simply a 50% damage reduction in ONLY the underworld, perhaps some kind of atmospheric effect simular to the ones in Nightfall after going into the vortex.

It isn't much the skill combo thats breaking the balance. Pre-buff, Shadow Form was borderline overpowered, because it took effort to make it everlasting. Then Anet said, "Lets add 15 seconds to the duaration of Shadow Form so that even a simpleton can do it".

Now I have nothing against the people who use SF or Ursan because you have to play with what your dealt. But to anyone who accepts these ridiculous skills as how it should be, what are you thinking?! Skills like Ursan and SF are big insults to the playerbase by Anet. Its like telling the playerbase "Sorry you are so bad at this game, here is something to make up for it."

And if this is a prequel to GW2, its going to fail, because easy games tend to get boring really fast.

Never really did any real farming with the Perma-Sin...

But this might make it harder to get our FoW run down to 25 mins... 28 might be where we cap.

Because the item rewards in Prophecies all had wierd-ass stats? This is just one of the only to have a use...

/doh, of course, necro off-hand was made for monks... Who wouldn't figure that out.

It is blood requirement.

What is the speciality of blood? Saccing. Saccers need low health. Hence it was added for them.

Technically it started out as a healing ankh if I'm not mistaken, not a cesta. But I don't wanne get in the debate itself, just wanted to give the info. It would be nice if one of the oldschool high end traders and pricecheckers could confirm this to be true or not.

Although off-topic I have to voice my support of this statement and although it has become a mantra of sorts the initial vision and focus of Guild Wars has seeming been morphed into just another MMO grind fest.
With the majority of titles, in game rewards and even the power of highly effective and in many cases integral skills revolving around the core repetitiveness of grinding I'm surprised this statement is still on record.

The moment grind was linked to PvE skill power and effectiveness was a black day for Anet and their supposed core philosophy imo.If anything it placed them in a realm on their own as loot and titles were easily ignored by those who did'nt care about such aesthetics.Involving, in many cases over-powered and/or game altering, PvE skills was akin to Anet slapping itself in the face contradiction wise.

The effect it has had on the overall feel of GW gameplay and the community as a whole really speaks for itself, at least to those who began playing at Prophecies release.

I'm still hopeful GW2 will be a return to the core philosophy that initially separated it from the competition and made it an attractive and worthwhile purchase but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

On-topic...my farming guildmates are still raking in the ecto perma-sinning, if at a slightly slower rate, which only leads me to conclude that 90% of Anet is busy on GW2, 9% are focussed on GW PvP, and one stoned Dev called "Smokey" pops in once a month to check in on GW PvE.

Ive 105ed outside of Bergen.
So that won't kill it I guess.

AAHAHAHAHA

So hows that profit now.

I have taken out my share of Jade Mesmers in Byduck Byway ouside of The Market Place and this is with out /Mes 55 build.I just make sure I have SoJ up before they cast signet of disruption and I am fine as for -50 cesta probably for Necros blood I think.

You are right though a 55 can handle more than 10.I would say that 55 is more balanced Than PermaSF Sins are.Your last paragraph wouldn't work as most would quit or just not play around FoW-UW unless it was say getting thier FoW armour something I will never see myself doing as the game is dwindling down.

They can handle more if the hits are staggered or are using Sheilding hands. The one point they cant is 12 hits at the same time.

This is OT (like a good portion of the rest of the thread) but a 55 monk can withstand any number of hits and a hefty degen at the same time, just by alternating Shield of Absorption and Shielding Hands over Prot Spirit while compensating the degen with HB or Mystic Regen. Such a build works, e.g., for the backyard popups of Gates of Kryta HM, or the charr horde in Nolani Academy HM (take Fleeting Stability as well).

The entire point of a farming build is that you are invincible for the given target. There isn't a single place on the PvE side of the game where the monsters have a fair chance regardless of what build you use. They are meant to be defeated, and talking about godmode in the context of GW skills is just silly.

Let's keep dropping that ecto price to show anet that their sf nerf was totally useless. Hopefully they will some how just nerf the UW runs and restore sf back, so I can do all the other farms with my sin.

Yeappers so true. Not to mention when ppl want to say stuff then what about a 1 shot kill all on map skill then. To bad they forget an important mechanic of the game that in itself would balance it out. Lets see who can figure it out what that mechanic would be.