PvP as endgame content

I've been thinking about posting this for a while. Just out of curiosity.
I hope this thread will get some usefull responses, aside from the inevitable "lol you suxx" and "whoru?" posts.

This is mostly aimed towards people that only PvE, or do very, very limited PvP.
Of course, you can always tell why you DID pick up PvP as endgame content in Guild Wars. Don't feel left out.


First of all, let me state that at least by the looks of it, PvP was ment to be endgame content for Guild Wars. (many will disagree, but just bare with me on this) :

The game is called Guild Wars. Don't know about you, but that title seriously hints towards PvP (Guild versus Guild to be exact).
Then there's the posibility to make PvP characters. No need to drag every single profession through the entire game. Just make an out-of-the-box PvP toon and be ready in no-time. Sure, balthazar's faction wasn't included at the start, which made the whole concept a bit less great than it sounded. But that was quickly fixed (and GW2 will even be UAX from the start).
Every large town had a PvP arena where you could practice, whislt developing your character. And once ascended, you could enter the tomb of the primeval kings to fight for the favour of the gods. All that PvP was very nicely embedded in the Lore and the PvE world. It seemed kind of obvious (at least to me) to engage in PvP sooner or later.

So where did it go wrong for the larger part of the GW crowd that remained playing PvE and never touched PvP ?

I have a lot of thoughts about that, ranging from "average MMO-er is not competitve minded and would rather spend 1000+ hours killing critters than spending 1000+ hours learning how to outsmart another player" to "People that play MMO's want to 'live' in a world where they are the best, the bravest, the hero. In PvP, there will always be someone handing your ass to you, therefor, the average MMO-er does not enjoy PvP".


Thoughts and input welcome. Please keep it civilised (yes, i know this sentence is pretty useless on a forum and people will act like total asshats whenever they want online. But you can always ask and hope for the best ... )



PS : Yes, i am a PvP player. No, this is no assault upon the PvE gamestyle. I play PvE aswell, and do enjoy it from time to time. I'm just curious why many PvE players never even touched PvP. Maybe Anet can pick up some ideas for GW2, to get more people into PvP. (the more, the better)

I think it came from the whole rank discrimination putting PvErs off getting the big prize of an emote in HA.

Well, that's one starting point for it. Then there is the extremely hostile PvP crowd.

a lot of it had to do with people not knowing the game was originally meant to be a PvP game.

even the devs confirmed this basically (that GW was meant to have PvP be the endgame): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw (#2).

PvP is good end game content because it is endlessly dynamic (compared to PvE now which is static and not being expanded) because of it being entirely human players. It can last forever and never has an end, even after you get all the titles it is built to keep going. Most people will not do PvE after they get r6 koabd at all, except to help people MAYBE.

Or ... Build Wars.

That emote should've never been the "big prize" of playing tombs. Winning matches (holding halls) and enjoying yourself while doing so should've been it.

On a sidenote, i never got "rank-discriminated", and to this day i am "only rank 6" but i wasn't even R3 when i held halls with a R9+ team. There are plenty of ways around the whole rank thing.

I think you're missing the category of player that plays competitive PvE. The strictly PvP formats do not appeal to me for the same reason that I don't like to play Monopoly or Football - The objective of the game is to beat down your opponent. Compare this to games like Scrabble or Golf where defeat your opponent not by attacking them, but rather through self improvement.

The competitive PvE player finds enjoyment from static content by finding or perfecting strategies for killing AI faster than the next person.

There are PvP oriented people and PvE oriented people.

Barring cultural differences (Korea for example) the PvE oriented people simply vastly outweigh the PvP oriented people.

This can be seen in just about every MMO. The games that have a choice between PvP and PvE see about a 1:5 ratio. For example: Everquest. It had 3 PvP servers, but there were a dozen or more PvE servers.

Same thing can be said for WoW and other games in different manners. Some use "Pvp zones" and they are vastly under-populated compared to the PvE areas.

So it makes financial sense that a PvP game that can also cater to the PvE oriented players would do so.

I personally am a PvE oriented player. I personally simply don't get along with anonymous competition. Too full of players who suffer from the GIFT.

I thoroughly enjoy direct competition. For example: I was once into the tournament circuit of a game called "Battletech". It entailed a large center with 12 physical cockpits where you piloted the mechs. It was pure PvP. Blow up your opponents. The difference between something like that and an online version is that after a match and during a match people were still civil. Sure there might be catcalling but always would you have a "Good game" afterwards.

In the online world that is less common. I have played in many PvP games and a vast majority of the time. The GIFT was in full force. No "Good game" when you lose. Instead you get people "Humping your corpse" or "YOU SUCK NOOB!".

So I stick with PvE where cooperation is the name of the game. I will keep my competition to the real world where if someone is an ass, I can pop them in the nose and move on.

Any "PvP" title that can cater to the PvE crowd will do so if possible. It's simply good business sense.

I love PVP, but after months of it and days, weeks and months of whining kiddies both on my team and the enemy team, it puts you off.

I'd rather play good PVP where people shut up and play than bad PVP where you have enough time to whine during a match.

That, and the majority of gamers would rather feel rewarded for their time than getting nothing but a victory. (Grinding worthless titles, XBox achievements that unlock next to nothing and so on.)

Guilds Wars was named after a period in the history (lore). I didn't know that either until I had read a quote from one of the devs. I think it was J.Strain who explained it.

I have no doubt pvp was the initial endgame Anet had in mind, but it just doesn't seem to work like that.

PvP was too demanding for me to keep up in terms of time, energy and practice so I had to switch the main focus to PvE.

Still like the occasional PvP in the forms of AB and Fort Aspenwood.

They made the game a CORPG. It attracted more of the RPG crowd than the PvP crowd despite their efforts. Their fault for making such a pretty game with a lot of content for its type. PvP can be popular. Close to a million people bought AoC, and most of those are on PvP servers. You just gotta make it "purdy".

GW does offer the best, most balanced PvP out there. That might be the PvP's limiter, as well. Some ass-hat coming from a WoW pvp server, thinking he will come and "pwn n00bz" with his wammo, gets a rude awakening when a mesmer makes him kill himself in 5 seconds. Some people don't like balance and a challenge. They just want to kill stuff or people easy. You don't have another game where, whenever some build seems imba in PvP, within a few weeks they adjust the key skill/skills to weaken it.

I think a lot of it has to do with most people being newish. pvp can be very unfriendly towards 'noobs', ie if you don't have a certain rank you can't join their team, or even if you play ra there's people from the same guild/alliance who mystically ended up on the same 'random' team and simply trounce whatever they face, or hero battlers who tank their ratings to fight easier people and gain commander points... it can be very frustrating and intimidating to a new person. Never mind that someone has a build and they think it's pretty good, and they get mocked and laughed at instead of being helped.

I too look at pvp as endgame content. When I'm totally done with pve and I'm bored, I'll pvp. Now I've done a bit myself. I'm r8 luxon, almost r2 commander, and have about 24 glad points and maybe 1 fame from a pug I was in. I realize that the things I want to do, gvg and ha, are out of my reach because I can't flash an emote or show a certain title. I understand why people are elitist about that. But many people who want to 'play guild wars' will want to pvp, and will be totally unable to. At least in pve, even if you suck nobody has to know, and if you keep at it eventually you'll prevail. Nobody will mock your build, call you names, say things about your mother, or question your sexuality. I can't really say the same about pvp, which is sad. If it was a bit more noob-friendly there might be more people trying it, but players can only take so much frustration and anger before they go back into their comfort zone of pve.

It's mostly bad marketing on Anet's part. They positioned GvG as an e-sport for the ultra elite. Most people have no interest in serious competition, particularly in their video games.

If they had had tiered tournaments from the start, with rewards even for the "casual" GvGers, we might today be living in the GvG golden age. The Guru/kiSu tournament is a step in the right direction that should have been taken in May 2006 instead of in July 2008.

I wonder if they have learned anything or if we'll see history repeat in GW2.

Man, honestly this is a toughie.

I imagine that when ANet said they "intended" players to migrate from PvE to PvP that it was in a pretty similar fashion to people playing a singleplayer campaign and moving onto the multiplayer portion. I mean, what else do you do when you beat a game? Master it? Be done with it? Not everyone likes to fight other players. Most like to just roleplay as a hero, kill evil monsters, and save the world.

The problem is that a lot of people treat Guild Wars as an MMO in the sense that they're supposed to be "addicted", being able to feast on an endless buffet of daily, updated content. The only "problem" is 1. it doesn't have a monthly fee, so you're only entitled to what you pay for, and 2. it's not an MMO in the first place. I don't know of how many people complained about offline RPGs not having enough content. Granted, there are games like Oblivion that could keep you hooked literally for years (multiply that time by five hundred if you factor in what you could do with the Construction Set), but many RPGs are only made to immerse you in the world and story.

This is all GW PvE was made for. Sure, there are a few endgame areas and a harder difficulty, but even those aren't supposed to tide you over forever.

Also, I don't get the argument retaining to the title of the game: "It's called Guild Wars, why wouldn't you think it's PvP?" I don't see how the word "guild" implies multiplayer. For me, I came to the assumption that it would be about opposing in-game factions, much like you see in Morrowind and dozens of other games. It could imply that the jolly old good-guys hero's guild has to go against the evil and corrupt bad-guy guild. Who knows?

Because when people see that a game has free online play, they buy it as a free online RPG, not as a free online competitive sport.

It doesn't matter what something is, it matters what something is marketed as, and who the product then caters to post-purchase.

EDIT: Also, for lulz,

whoru?

Easy, just look at both games and what a casual player can do, in PVE you can do a million things to occupy your time without being that commited, in PVP all you can do is RA. Now compare Random Arenas to PVE, its no mystery why people chose PVE over RA, its funner.

A lot of it is the elitism from higher end PvPers. A lot of people I know gave up on PvP after not being allowed into groups. I personally only play casual PvP every so often for Balth faction or zKeys, I would play a lot more if people would actually let me into a HA group.

Pvp is a nasty place imo
RA has sync'er
GvG has smurf guilds
HA has rank discrimination
HB has people who tank their rating and rollers

Haven't thought of anything bad about TA yet, will have to think about it for a sec. But all these things discourages people to start doing pvp.

All facets of the game have their bad parts, Shadowmoon. Discrimination and ditching can be found everywhere in the game. PvE has just as many "bad" parts as PvP does.

People usually keep the bad parts of PvE to themselves, thanks to heroes and henchmen.

Really, it's all what you make of it. I have been one to tantrum, and I've also been a positive vibe in my matches, too. I feel better when I'm rolling with the punches and complimenting other players, but it really is all too easy to get caught up in the competition and look for someone to blame.

pvp has a steep learning curve in gw1; there are numerous game types to master and the unlocking system certainly doesnt help either, with new players having very limited tools to work with.
and in the competitive environment, it can be rather hostile and unfriendly.

if gw2 can improve on some of those points, i suspect more folks will give pvp a try.

as for player pvp titles, i dont a single number is an accurate measure of skill. we could do with an ingame points over time graph per player to give a more accurate picture of performance.

I think the main reason why people PvE over PvP is because that is what they chose to do first. Thus they don't want to leave there comfort zone. Sure the game is called "Guild Wars" however that doesn't mean thats the only thing to it. Many people who play MMO RPG's perfer to play out the storyline. Some do this simply because they like to play that way. Others simply to get a feel for the game before they try the parts that require a little more skill (admit it PvP is harder....at least at a higher level). So most people chose to play through the game in PvE mode before they tried out PvP. They then became used to the PvE play style and after beating the game maybe they tried PvP out maybe they never bothered. When they tried they dove into a world with a entirely different skill set. They then, probably, go frustrated with there failures (maybe they picked up the proper builds maybe not lets assume not) and they decided that it wasn't worth the effort. So the majority of people decided to stick to doing what they know how to do. At one point in time everyone was a "Noob" to HA and GvG however they eventually got better just like PvE'ers got better at PvE. The players who chose to play PvP got better faster at PvP (shocking I know). This + the fact that PvP is much more "intense" then PvE created a frustrating atmosphere for those who were new to PvP. Also PvP requires more devotion to the game then PvE which is much more casual.

Imo it's pretty simple.

When GW first came out it was pretty 50/50 content, popularity and usage wise.

Since then Anet has used the majority of it's time to concentrate and produce a proportionately higher amount of both PvE content and rewards compared to PvP with not much changing since Factions release other than skills and new classes which applies to both.

Add grind based PvE rewards and titles that vastly outnumber any PvP related content and you have the current state of affairs.

I mean AB is still pretty popular yet there have really been no new incentives or variation in PvP play since then.Keeping PvP in a locked state imo has put many off.If Anet had more content and variations of play that cater to a broader audience over time things may have ended up different.

I remember watching the DVD I got with the NF collector's edition where Anet stated their blueprint for each new content release was to focus more on either one or the other aspect of the community, Prophecies being relatively split down the middle, Factions adding more PvP content and being more PvP focussed, NF concentrating more on PvE with the next instalment switching back to a PvP focus.

Obviously there was a HUGE change of direction after NF was released, god knows why, but it has worked all be it to the disdain of much of the community.

I still enjoy GW PvP but it's awfully stale and the amount of content, timesink and grind added to PvE completes the picture for me.

If a game is 70-80% PvE, 20-30% PvP in terms of related content and things to do it seems the end result would be pretty obvious.

GW PvP demands much of your time. When you start with a battle, you can't do anything anymore (you can't even go to cr because you will be reported). And these days, you can no longer PvP the way you want to play it. Your team will give you your build and they expect you to play it well even if you don't understand what's in your bar. They will just tell you to press 4123 4123 56 4123 4123 (well, that's and exxageration).

I think if Anet put a 1v1 PvP as a start-up, more people will appreciate PvP and will eventually join other pvp areas.

For me, I'm happy with PvE and even after playing for 34 months, I still have lots of things to do.

of course people tell you what to run because you are building a team. The very same happens in PvE if you play with humans too.

Incoherent rambling, and focused more on gvg than tombs, since gimmicks in tombs started really early with spirit spamming.

People talk about how they want all these options and more and more stuff for pvp, and then they talk about the "Glory Days" of pvp right before Factions release when every monk was a boonprot, rangers ran cripshots with Distortion, and warriors had Gale. This was universal--teams did not deviate from these proven builds, and when they did, they were taking large risks. So the matches were actually players fighting against nearly identical balanced teams with small and easilly understood variations. You felt skilled for winning.

Then they curse the days that Assassins were added to force splits and blurr the front/mid/back lines. Or discord hero teams rolling balanced and gimmicks alike with barely any human interaction necessary. Or hexes on jade island where nobody could split away and would get overwhelmed. Ritspike. Paraway.

I could just be looking at it this way after playing some games like Team Fortress 2 and Dragon Arena, which pit you against other players who have predictable tools identical to yours--but it seems like having an effective gimmick build in guild wars is a very strong crutch.

Now on to the newbie who enters the game at this point!

Players are expected to play exactly the build given to them. It takes time (or money) for a new player to unlock these skills, as well as the runes for their armor. They also must invest additional time as everyone else sorts out their gear. It could take an hour just to set up for one match, and nobody is really confident except for the handful of egomaniacs who claim they know what they're doing. They've got it all worked out, and it's now up to the newbie to just use the effing build. It's on YOUR shoulders, nublet.

The new player finally gets in a match, only to have his team rolled by a dominating smurf.

God dammit, nublet.

The player sees he got no reward for the time spent. Player realizes he's never going to get good, and goes to pve to get some reward for time spent.

Speaking as a player who seems to follow the outline of what the OP was talking about (2500 hrs played, 24 maxed titles, 42 fame and 55 glad points), I think the hardest part for me was not getting into a PvP guild early. PvP isn't something you can easily learn on your own. The few times I tried to play old fashioned tombs, I wouldn't get a group because I didn't know what I was doing and no one wanted to teach me.

Most people learn to get good at PvP along with people they regularly play with, so that they don't have to worry about others yelling at them or degrading them. If I would have been able to find a guild of people that were willing to teach and have fun doing it, I probably would have gotten into PvP a lot more.

As it is, when I get the itch to PvP I'll either hop in RA or spend a few minutes watching observer mode until I can head back to grinding out that Asura title. As bad as it sounds, I think PvP could use something like the original IWAY; that is, a build that wasn't hard to run by any means, but at the same time helped new players learn the maps, battlefield awareness, and other basic skills. That way, new players could get into the game and at least have a fighting chance.

Unfortunately, that would alienate a lot of the older players, and would also create a stale HA environment. At this point, it seems like the best shot for most PvE players that were intrigued by PvP but never made the leap would be to wait until GW2 and get in on the ground floor, where the playing field would be leveled again.

One thing I would like to see is an arena that would be a combination of hero battles and random arena. You would just grab 3 heroes and jump in, but instead of capture points and lots of micromanaging, you would just to a simple 4v4 deathmatch that would have a maximum time of around 3 or 4 minutes. It wouldn't have to be anything serious, but I think that would help PvE players, who are already used to basic hero usage, learn the basic PvP skills.

Crap you posted it before me. Oh well.

Everybody informed knows that the only endgame was supposed to be PvP. It obviously isn't anymore, as people have HoM grinding and a bunch of other things to keep them busy. Why did this happen? You can point to a lot of reasons, but I think Anet is the only real reason. Their management of this game has been on epically bad proportions.

A good point was brought up earlier that people thought of Guild Wars as a free MMO. The thing is, it was never supposed to be an MMO! It was a CORPG! Anet has even come out and stated that Guild Wars was more along the lines of a regular video game where you beat it once then either play the endgame or wait to buy the next standalone content! Unfortunately over the course of time, Anet managed to change their game into something its not, and then the problems with the game really began to show.

The idea that the players wanted more PvE so Anet had to give it to them is crap. Millions of players bought the game with the competitive aspects and skill>time as the main focus of the game. The system Anet had set up worked perfect, as the masses would surely buy the new PvE content if they enjoyed the current PvE content (just as they do with part 2 of normal video games) and would not have to play the endgame if they didn't want to play it. I think Anet would have been better served sticking to their competitive philosophy and keeping the original PvP game intact while continually selling new PvE content to the masses.

Instead Anet caved in so badly that they not only completely changed their outlook and philosophy of the game, but also changed the endgame to a point where it is completely disfigured from its original form. PvP is no longer the endgame. PvE is now the beginning, middle, and end of Guild Wars, with PvP being a little minigame. I feel confident saying that PvP will probably be less than 5% importance of Guild Wars 2. This isn't a shift in focus...its a complete 180.

I'm gonna make some points on the OP, and ignore any responses for now as they are usually pointless (will correct myself later if I am incorrect)

I would agree with you, seeing how before Factions, PvE and PvP was nicely mixed together, and the only end-game was UW/FoW and HoH. So it was one of two options for End-game content how I see it.

I think the game was named Guild Wars because of two events that happened in the past, along with the existence of Guilds. Those two events being the First Guild War and Second Guild War (the second one ended eight years before the game, due to invasion of the Charr). Although it would also be affected by the concept of GvG, however, that is not a "war," so it is unlikely that the name was based entirely on that.

I think the PvP characters were added for those who just want to fight other people and not bother with any other gameplay, personally.

Every large town had an Arena in order to give a new standard for people who advance in the story. It wouldn't be fair to have level 20s fighting level 4s and 5s in Ascalon Arena. And not to mention that there are two arenas after Tombs, so Tombs wasn't mean to be the end before the end. And yes, it was very nicely embedded into the lore and the PvE part of the game. In the beginning, I believe ANet attempted to make them one in the same, but it started to get difficult with the release of Factions (where they introduced the Battle Isle, bad idea imo) and the new forms of PvP, which AB is not accessible through non-PvP methods (another bad move imo). Essentially, PvE and PvP started splitting the second Factions came out, probably when Factions was being made.

Along with those two things you mentioned, which are both true, there is also how the people in PvP act. The same problem goes for PvE, however there are Henchmen to replace those people. I hardly PvP because I got sick of all the "haha noob" and "u fukin suk!" etc etc that gets thrown at the losers, and then someone from the losing team always go "wtf you noobs! go l34rn to pl4y!" and whatnot.

That is probably the biggest reason why those who PvE mostly do not PvP as much. Change the behavior, and PvP will get a boost, if the behavior change is known. BUT, that won't happen.

hi ppl.

someone here said AoC... AoC really is a total PVP game and i loved it for about 3 years.

in Guild wars i hate the pvp part and only play pve.

why i think.

the reason is, in gw there is no rating system. when i go ra, there can play the biggest noob together with gladi r6 or something.

when i play AoC im 16xx rating and fighting vs 16xx... and the 2k ppl fighting each other too. [gamezone... some ppl maybe know this]

thats just the way it should be. anet should have done some title-referred rating system for example....

where r0 gladis fighting each other... and higher ranked player fighting each other.

I am a super casual pvp'r player. Whenever I finish a campaign I will HA while I wait for new pve content. I think titles have made it where people who are hooked on pve content can never finish it and move on to pvp. I personally will pvp again after I run my 10,000 chests which really means cya in 2009.

Indeed. I've played Guild Wars for over a year but have never touched any form of PvP besides RA, CM and AB because of all the listed reasons. Yes yes I know, I'm a sore loser and I'll get over it.

The only PvP I like is Aspy.
Everything else just isn't fun.
I am guessing the biggest problems are the lack of auto-rez, insanely small arenas and parties (in Aspy you have a bunch of NPCs which are able to make up for shitty players) and the lack of chaos (in builds and in playstyle).

I did some AB also - and it wasn't THAT bad - but the whole 4 man party kills it for me.

I can't even say anything about HA because in the two and a half year i play almost dayly, i only found a party there once.

Most of the pvp content is repetitive,elitist and completely build based. The one thing that can make it fun is random HA with randomly assigned skills. With a one week ban for anyone leaving before defeat. Then it would be skill based.

And PvE isn't?

Find me an online game with no elitism and then we can talk.
You can't escape it, PvE or PvP.
Wait, so putting your skill bar together has nothing to do with the game?

Look, the majority of the things complained about in PvP are really in PvE too. It's just the difference between the two; one has H/H, the other does not. One also is against AI, and the other against players.

At least it is possible to find a party in pve. You only need to have one guildie and you can do anything anywhere. And for me, pve is not repetitive at all since i don't farm and never do the same area twice in a row. If people find pve boring because they feel compelled to farm in the same spot for weeks, that's their own problem.

It is possible to find a party in PvP though. The only people who struggle to do so are people who don't bother trying. Get a friends list, and attempt to persuade them to play with you.

As for PvE not being repetetive...they're always the same. No difference in how the AI plays, they don't coordinate accurately, and they have the same skill bars all the time, except for when they add an elite for HM.

PvP is against different people. Things can change fast, choices need to be made fast, and people are smarter and playstyles are alot different. Not to mention players actually change builds. It's the exact opposite.

Even IF i find a pvp party, i always get kicked because someone doesn't like the build i chose to play. So what if i prefer glimmer over HB? It heals you fast and it heals you good. Too bad you can't convince anyone of that. I just don' t have the patience for all that crap. RA or Aspenwood is all i can stand from time to time. And AB because most often people there just grab any allie they can get and dive into it.

That's another reason why i would prefer Diablo3 over GW2: No one cares what kind of build you use. Any help is welcomed no matter what skills you have. Also, Diablo2 didn't have party leaders with the ability to kick you out for not being cookie cutter. Heaven.

At least GW pve has heroes so you only need to find one co op player to do anything you want. One for the front line and one for support and you are golden.

If you can't be a team player and use what's most effective in that part, you're just as easily kicking yourself.

Cookie cutter for using what's most effective and what people asked for?

Cookie cutter because you wanted to remove something that powers your heals alot for a sub-par heal?

Please.

And what if you were open to play with other people? A full team of 8 players, going at full aiming for maximum efficiency is awesome, and in fact, getting a full party of people will make the run fun for most people. Playing with people is the best experience you can get on this game.

Noone likes dying. It sucks. Your screen goes all grey, you see all your buddies still fighting on without you. Unfortunately in PvP you will die a lot. Even the best people in the game die. The problem lies in that once you find a team build / tactic that works in a static PvE setting, suddenly you find you die quite a lot less. Theres no need to adept (especially now that PvE and PvP skills are split).

The learning curve is so much steeper in PvP than PvE. The game gently takes you through Pre-searing, and helps you through the PvE aspect of Prophecies. If the game holds your hand through most of PvE but leaves you by the side of the road to fend for yourself when it comes to PvP, you can forgive people for thinking 'you know what, i'm not going to PvP because it's too hard and i die a lot'. It's also such a painstaiking task to gather 8 people up for organised PvP. There is a lot of waiting around compared to PvE, which people new to organised PvP aren't used to / haven't got the patience for.

Unless they don't let you play whatever the hell you want.

They want me to be a healer.Then fine i heal you right up. Too bad people always need to see wich build i use. So what it's not the most effective in this current patch? It's something different from the usual at least. I would have gotten sick of this game ages ago without any variation from time to time.