If ursan gets nerfed, can we include all classes in elite pve areas?

I don't believe anyone here has anything against Ursan for completing NM. NM is pretty much "easy mode". The issue is that players that can't play are getting a free pass into completing HM - which was meant to be hard, and a challenge to players who had completed the game. Completing NM means you are good enough for NM. It doesn't mean that you're good enough or skilled enough with your bar to complete HM.

Ursan makes it such that you don't HAVE to even be good with your bar to complete HM. I actually like this argument.
The big problem is that it makes the overpowered status of the PvE skills subjective. Which is bad. Because if it would apply - that would mean that Ursan is an ok skill for HM if you know your way around HM.
Which is false.
Just like all PvE skills it's shit and shouldn't exist.

I actually like this argument.
The big problem is that it makes the overpowered status of the PvE skills subjective. Which is bad. Because if it would apply - that would mean that Ursan is an ok skill for HM if you know your way around HM.
Which is false.
Just like all PvE skills it's shit and shouldn't exist. My guild group actually loathes killing in Junundu and ursanway because it's slower than a proper build. You don't even need a full party of 8 real players to kill if you have a good build, actually. The thing is, of course, you need to know your way around HM to do that. If you're an ele who's been flarespamming your way through NM, too bad.

Since it's already in existence and not likely to disappear, I'm more keen on nerfing ursan not to the point where it is completely useless, but to the point where ursanway is no longer as viable as it is now. I got my r10 more for the +hp and the title than for ursan, since I monk - and I tried solo ursaning or ursaning with a friend. Maybe I suck at it, but one single ursan isn't exactly the most fantastic damager on earth, since ursans are single-target except for ursan rage. I'd take a good nuker anytime, but that's just me. My opinion is pretty much that Ursan isn't overpowered as a single skill - it's overpowered because it lends itself to gimmick builds that let you rampage across anything PvE has to offer.

If and when I do choose to PUG, I want to be able to go into a group, ask people to ping their bars, and be able to judge from there. As it is now, all you need to get into a group is to ping your bar to show that you have ursan, and display your norn rank title. If you're a monk, you just have to show that you have the cookie-cutter HB build. It doesn't show how good you are as a player - I can't tell until you're actually in the instance whether or not you're going to do something stupid. You leeroy in NM? OK, you might get away with it. You leeroy into two huge mobs in HM? You don't have a snowball's chance in hell. Unless, of course, you're all R10 ursans packed full of consumable power. That's my biggest problem. You shouldn't be able to do something so ridiculously stupid and get away with it just because 6/8 of the party is ursan. I always thought things like pulling and not-leeroying were common sense, and I'm a lot more forgiving towards ursans who do things like wall to protect the backline, pull carefully, and not leeroy.

And since I really should stop rambling - it pretty much runs like this: I'm cool with a player running ursan if the player demonstrates basic common sense - doubly so if the player can run his/her original bar. I'm not happy with ursanway and the way it lets you rampage over everything without even having to stop and think about what you're doing. Nobody complained about junundu - but well, fine. Ursan is a shit skill, it shouldn't exist - but it does. So maybe the best way to go would be to nerf the most devastating side effect: the ursanway team itself.

EDIT: To keep this on-topic - completely deleting ursan? No. People will just go back to other builds which would still exclude certain classes - that is, if you're talking about PUGs. Nerfing ursanway might offer more flexibility (so classes which don't have an immediately obvious use might have a better chance to fit in), but this being PUG, I somehow doubt it. I still would like to see ursanway nerfed, though.

I don't believe anyone here has anything against Ursan for completing NM. NM is pretty much "easy mode". The issue is that players that can't play are getting a free pass into completing HM - which was meant to be hard, and a challenge to players who had completed the game. Completing NM means you are good enough for NM. It doesn't mean that you're good enough or skilled enough with your bar to complete HM.

Ursan makes it such that you don't HAVE to even be good with your bar to complete HM. I keep returning to this argument because I REALLY like it.
Although I still feel that it's flawed in terms of looking at certain things in a subjective way - I really love the idea of competing NM giving you the right to be able to do NM (rather then giving you the right to the whole game).
Now the thing that made me wonder - does HM teach you anything new though?
Based on your argument - people should be excluded from HM if they didn't learn what HM should teach them.
Now - what should that be? The only thing that I can think of is HM introducing new gimmicks - and in PvE you pretty much counter them rather then learn a lesson that will help you play better. Hell - the way HM is designed - you actually FORGET some of the stuff you learned (double activation speed means that skills that actively counter that are less useful!).
So what lessons should HM teach you (that you can't learn in NM) - that would justify keeping players outside of it?