If ursan gets nerfed, can we include all classes in elite pve areas?
Abedeus
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Tyla
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Originally Posted by Stockholm
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Originally Posted by Something I've said earlier
I thought Shadow Form wasn't going to be nerfed. I was wrong by a longshot.
Stockholm, if they nerf Shadow Form, it's obvious they are attempting to fix PvE.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by Stockholm
There won't be an "Ursan nerf", but keep dreaming if you will
Didnt Leonardo De Vinci say something like "nerf ursan.... nerf ursan..." as he lay dying in his bed, back in 1519?
Seventh_Samurai
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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
If a PvP guild can find 8 players consistently for GvG then a PvE guild can find a full team. Smaller guilds even more so because they tend to have a core team set that play everything together anyway (meaning they are all at the same point in the game). |
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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa
and to add. I personally faund arachni's and Rragars to be some of the easiest dungeons in HM using h/h.
Catacombs, frostmaws etc are harder with AI simply because of how they react to the types of foes there. Really? These dungeons are SO easy to run, with the exception of one or two things in each (in kathandrax, the first boss on final floor and the worms are all a 600/smite needs help with; in frostmaw, he/she only needs help with the soulrending shriek mobs). Your teams were likely built differently for Arachni's and Rragars if you had a easy time with them.
isamu kurosawa
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
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Well in my experience a small active guild tends to play pretty much everything together, meaning they stay at the same point while large active guilds tend to have plenty of people who are up for anything.
Guilds are a great place for teams, but you should realy be in a guild that focuses on what you prefer to do, be that a form ov PvP, title hunting, farming, missions or elite areas.
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
Really? These dungeons are SO easy to run, with the exception of one or two things in each (in kathandrax, the first boss on final floor and the worms are all a 600/smite needs help with; in frostmaw, he/she only needs help with the soulrending shriek mobs). Your teams were likely built differently for Arachni's and Rragars if you had a easy time with them.
As i stated the problems with those dungeons are more to do with how hero/hench AI reacts to certain Skills, mainly AoE types rather than difficulty.
In arachni's h/h tend to use correct support skills etc but in catacombs they do not (earth hench uses ward against melee whenyou take ele damage). Hench also tend to run around inside AoE rather than run out of it, especially if snared, stood in a dungeon trap, or worse of all stood in a spirit rift (they do not move at all).
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by Tyla
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eveloper_updates#.5BDev_Update.5D_Shadow _Form_Balance_Changes_-_2_July_2008
Ask Anet what exactly? How easy farming was supposed to be?
How easy farming is, that is up to the players.
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2: farming is grind, not gameplay
Grind is still gameplay. To grind you must play. How easy farming is, that is up to the players.
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Didn't they say the same thing about Shadow Form or am I mistaken?|
3: What economy?
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Good for participation. Bad for player skill.
It breaks three promises made by Arena Net. It doesn't reward clever or skillful use. Skill > Time didn't only apply to PvP. It is powered on grind. Grind for benefits. It gives you a pre-made bar. Defeats the concept of skill bars. Quote: |
Oh, and if they are investigating the problem, they probably would see a problem. Infact, just looking at the arguments, for and against shows.
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Despite farming being the most degenerate form of PvE - I actually don't see why that would matter.
I don't see how anyone can suggest that SF was nerfed when one can still keep it up 24/7. True that, although godmode should never exist in any game.
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Originally Posted by upier
Foes dealing 400+ (or 1k damage) are broken - but because the AI is stupid it's fine.
I don't see how anyone can suggest that SF was nerfed when one can still keep it up 24/7. True that, although godmode should never exist in any game.
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Please share with me here you find an indicator that the strength of the build is what makes it broken (in the following argument which is what I was replying to):
Quote: Originally Posted by JDRyder
Not mutually exclusive remember. Seed of Life was and still is broken.|
There is balance - and then there are idiotic ideas. So I am REALLY dying to see how Ursan turns out. It being a pretty huge factor for actually buying GWEN mixed with the fact that it's a PvE ONLY elite skill that was supposed to take care of the class discrimination in PvE - I am guessing that after it gets trashed it will still be the best thing to use. Well, for the same reason as Bryant, I would be less spiteful towards Ursan and all other PvE skills if they weren't linked to grinding for benefits. It would go against two things promised, but at least it isn't dependant on a shoddy grind title.
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Oh, and if they are investigating the problem, they probably would see a problem. Infact, just looking at the arguments, for and against shows.
Now your making the asumption that they look at the forums and the QQ threads about Ursan, if they look at the stats from the servers it proberbly shows a very popular skill being used by a majority of players, in 8 man pugs.
A small part of the players are QQ'ing about it on forums while a big part of the players are in game actually using the skill. As I said before keep dreaming about a nerf, it will not happen Tyla
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Originally Posted by Stockholm
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I understand they don't even bother with the forums. Oh, by the way...
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A small part of the players are QQ'ing about it on forums while a big part of the players are in game actually using the skill.
Your point being? I don't like Imbagons. I abuse them. I understand why they should be nerfed. Grind based and basically godmode. I don't like Shadow Form either. I still abuse godmode for my own personal gain. I understand why it should be nerfed aswell. I don't like alot of things in this game, yet I abuse them. Want to know why? If I didn't, I would be gimping myself, and I might aswell take advantage of these things beforehand if I can still use it while preserving the main things that keep this game decent. isildorbiafra
Of topic but if i remember correctly a-net mentioned that usan would be nerfed from a tactical perspective. Imo they will leave ursan as is; but will prohibit multi player ursan teams. I.e. a-net will prohibit more than one party member running ursan blessing at any given time! That way quick and easy vanquishing/ mission runs through UW, FoW and DoA will be a thing of the past; but single players will still be able to use it while hero/ henching to their hearts content.
Back on topic to me ub used in combination with the right skills is just another build; with the only exception that it is imba especially in multi ursan partys.
Abedeus
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As I said before keep dreaming about a nerf, it will not happen
They. Already. Announced. Incoming. Nerf.
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Taurucis
We can include all classes in elite PvE areas, but most of the time people won't.
Kind of like how my guild leader didn't want me to play my Warrior in Urgoz, even though I could have used Ursan or D-slash+SY. No, he wanted me on my ranger as a splinter/barrage... which is why I'm not going back to Urgoz again. My guild seems to have problems figuring out how powerful a Warrior is so I've kind of stopped going places with them... And you know that when your guild (made up mostly of friends) will only accept cookie cutter builds, you're screwed. The problem is the cookie cutter mentality that plagues most of Guild Wars. They see a build, they like the build, and they think that build is the only build. It's a good way to kill off a game pretty fast.
Seventh_Samurai
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Originally Posted by Taurucis
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Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan. |
Originally Posted by Taurucis
The problem is the cookie cutter mentality that plagues most of Guild Wars. They see a build, they like the build, and they think that build is the only build. It's a good way to kill off a game pretty fast.
What works well, works well. The fact that HM elite areas are, well, "hard" forces you to be very narrow in your build construction, because let's face it, there are a lot more ways to make crap builds than there are to make good builds. Not to mention some skills being completely useless (I won't name any here to avoid any flame wars). While you can branch out, HM (or even NM in some cases) elite areas are not really the place to do so. That's reserved for standard NM missions and quests.
Taurucis
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
You're talking about an elite area. I'm not saying "warriors are bad" by any means, but what works well in an area, especially an elite area, is what people will take. If you're taking up a spot with a class that's less useful in that area, then I suppose he has every right to refuse and ask you to take a different class or someone else.
I seem to recall a bunch of people telling me that a D-Slash/SY warrior works really well in Urgoz, perhaps even better than one of the nukers or rangers...
What I found scandalous was that he wasn't even willing to try something new. And when my guild leader won't try something new then I pretty much can't expect anyone else to try something new.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
You're talking about an elite area. I'm not saying "warriors are bad" by any means, but what works well in an area, especially an elite area, is what people will take. If you're taking up a spot with a class that's less useful in that area, then I suppose he has every right to refuse and ask you to take a different class or someone else.
Who knows, If his Guild leader let him take something different it may work so well they start to always what 1. if it phails, oh well
upier
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.
Then let's add ALL PvE only skills to that list.
My ritualist and my mesmer share half their skillbar. (And the rest of the bar is pretty much just a bunch of filler skills - because everything pretty much dies after going through the 4 shared skills.) Ohh and the way HoM works - who would even bother playing multiple characters? Unless of course you are playing for fun - in which case - I doubt you are using Ursan. (Not that Ursan can't be fun - but the people who play for fun usually don't perceive it as fun.)
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by upier
Then let's add ALL PvE only skills to that list.
My ritualist and my mesmer share half their skillbar. (And the rest of the bar is pretty much just a bunch of filler skills - because everything pretty much dies after going through the 4 shared skills.) Ohh and the way HoM works - who would even bother playing multiple characters? Unless of course you are playing for fun - in which case - I doubt you are using Ursan. (Not that Ursan can't be fun - but the people who play for fun usually don't perceive it as fun.) no cause other pve skills dont fully change your bar. creative, and the more classes you play the better you understand the game
Seventh_Samurai
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
If anet wanted a real "solution", they would essentially make PvE like PvP. No, I don't mean fighting other players, but sharing everything across characters...and I mean everything. Map exploration, experience, towns, missions, armor, skill unlocks (PvE unlocks could still be kept different from PvP unlocks, but once you got it on one PvE character, you could get it on all your other PvE characters as well), quests, rep titles, sunspear & lightbringer titles...everything. Obviously, this will not happen for a multitude of reasons. First off, it's too big of a change too late in the game. The game's economy would suffer as well as there would be less demand all around, tomes in particular. And, how would end of game weapons work then? There are a few monetary incentives for anet to not do this as well. Why would you buy more character slots when you can easily remake a PvE character as a different class and have everything, save for maybe a weapon/offhand, already at your disposal? While it's an interesting thought, anything that's harmful to their business model won't make it into the game.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai
Oh? Hardly. Stances/Shouts still work through Ursan, and AL is still different, and thus people preferring W/Me, or P/Me to other classes for Ursan. And, as upier was saying, look at the PvE skills. I think the greater tragedy here is not Ursan, or PvE skills, but the fact that PvE skills are tied to titles. Why play more than one class when to use any PvE skills (aside from those tied to Lux/Kurz) you need to grind, grind, grind to get them up to a useful level, Ursan included?
That agrees with what i said, why make more chars? Soon as you get a high level ursan why make any more cause im pretty sure if you liked the grind your playing Wow or something and the other pve skills are not a NEED, you have to be a high level Ursan to be in most groups but dont need to have pve skills really if ursan didnt exist.
the other pve skills dont change your whole bar when you use them, and im not sure what they have to do with any of the OQ or RQs
upier
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
no cause other pve skills dont fully change your bar.
Raven and Volfen?
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by upier
It's like that foolish PvE skill for the Assassin that blinds yourself. When talking about balance in a format, you really should stick to discussing what is viable and what is overpowered. If Ursan were to be nerfed into oblivion, the other Blessings would not be picked up immediately if at all.
upier
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
It's like that foolish PvE skill for the Assassin that blinds yourself. When talking about balance in a format, you really should stick to discussing what is viable and what is overpowered. If Ursan were to be nerfed into oblivion, the other Blessings would not be picked up immediately if at all. That's beside the point. He's stating that Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity. Raven and Volfen do the same thing. Yet we don't consider them a problem. Which makes me wonder how solid his argument that "Ursan is bad because it removes the skillbar with a pre-set one" is.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by upier
He's stating that Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity. Raven and Volfen do the same thing. Yet we don't consider them a problem. Which makes me wonder how solid his argument that "Ursan is bad because it removes the skillbar with a pre-set one" is. |
It's not beside the point.
Quote: Originally Posted by JDRyder
Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.
All I see is him basing his argument on the fact that the skill replaces your skillbar and it's broken because of that. And he confirms that with:
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Originally Posted by upier
Seed of Life didn't replace your skillbar yet it was still nerfed.
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Of course the wurm are broken you can happily 3 man any area HM in them and it is for that reason that I don't play in the desolation. The difference between it and ursan is that jundu doesn't affect my gameplay while I'm not in a desolation area. |
Originally Posted by JDRyder
they are just as bad imo and id also be happy to see them suck even more
Funny thing is, i almost added them in to my last post here but said "meh people will get the point of what i was trying to say and add them in as well, no need to add them in to the post" Im not a fan of any pve skill that replaces your bar, people need to be more creative imo. Ursan is just as bad Raven/Vofen. Which means that they need to get trashed along with Ursan. Unless of course - he is wrong and Ursan is broken because of different reasons. (Which would be my bet and what you suggested when you brought it's strength to the table.)
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by upier
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The reasons are not mutually exclusive:
1) Ursan is broken because its overpowered, so is every other overpowered skill/game feature . It needs to be fixed along with other things like SR minion sharing, perma shadowform or bodyblocking. 2) Ursan is broken because it replaces your skillbar, so are volfen and raven. It needs to be fixed along with the other 2 skillbar replacing skills. 3) Ursan is broken because its power level is based on grind. All the other PvE skills are just as broken and need to have their grind based power removed. Ursan just happens to take the trifecta so it gets the most attention.
upier
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
The reasons are not mutually exclusive:
1) Ursan is broken because its overpowered, so is every other overpowered skill/game feature . It needs to be fixed along with other things like SR minion sharing, perma shadowform or bodyblocking. 2) Ursan is broken because it replaces your skillbar, so are volfen and raven. It needs to be fixed along with the other 2 skillbar replacing skills. 3) Ursan is broken because its power level is based on grind. All the other PvE skills are just as broken and need to have their grind based power removed. Ursan just happens to take the trifecta so it gets the most attention. Ohh I completely forgot about that. (Probably because I really hate that logic. Based on that - the C3 Wurm is broken. BUT since it's used in a small part of the game only it's fine. Seed of Life didn't replace your skillbar yet it was still nerfed. Foes dealing 400+ (or 1k damage) are broken - but because the AI is stupid it's fine. And now Ursan does all 3 BUT it helps get unwanted classes into parties.)
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by upier
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Quote: Originally Posted by upier
And now Ursan does all 3 BUT it helps get unwanted classes into parties.)
I used Norgu to keep myself clean while doing Gloom and Razah as a splinter engine - if they are able to complete elite areas, players have no reason not to.
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Originally Posted by snow bunny
Warriors - Dslash SY!/Earthshaker Dervish - Avatar of Lyssa/Dwayna physical damage Ranger - GDW/Splinter Barrage Monk - healzzzzzz Mesmer - CoP faceripping aoe Ele - traditional blow-shit-up class; will always find a place somewhere Assassin - MS/DB spam w/ Crit Agility; ridiculously high damage Paragon - imbagon Ritualist - splinter barrage Necromancer - hex spam Quote:
o i never said it was not overpowered, Ive said it was in other threads and this 1 i think. Cause it replaces your skill bar is the main reason i don't like it, I understand theres always going to be a changing overpowered meta and this 1 has going on for 2 long. Theres no point to have any thing other than a monk and a war for the people that use ursan, and that fuels the lack of creative, and knowledge on other classes.
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