Sabway vs. Discord
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Washi
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You totally didnt understand what I was refering to (probably on purpose), cause I never said racway is not a concept, I even said I used both concepts. I'm tired with this offtopic so I'll end it with this post.|
You are so glued to this "synergy" you talk about but you fail to understand that Racway is worse than sabway in most difficult areas. I will not agree that it's as flexible, far from it. I played many hours using both concepts, adjusting and testing and from my experience Necros are superior in most cases, that's it.
And what makes you think a necro can't be used in Racway? Are there necro skills involved? Definitely. Rac even posted his N/Rt build to replace the D/N in his long thread, for certain difficult areas.
Washi
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
And what makes you think a necro can't be used in Racway? Are there necro skills involved? Definitely. Rac even posted his N/Rt build to replace the D/N in his long thread, for certain difficult areas.
I was thinking necros vs paragons, not necro vs dervish.
Ontopic, for me it's Sabway > Discordway if you go with henchies. If you go with 6 heroes then it's Discordway > Sabway + Racway (although both teams are extremely powerful)
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Washi
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Like I said in an earlier post on this thread, I still dont see why you would consider sabway to be tweakable and flexible while racway to be inflexible. Racway seems to be as tweakable to me.
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I was thinking necros vs paragons, not necro vs dervish.
If you think that bringing 2 Paragon heroes is too limiting then feel free to replace them. I have also tried a variant that swaps out one of the Paragons with an Ele and bringing ToF on the other Paragon. Nobody says you cant change the Paragons. Furthermore, saying that you use sabway (which most people use) is not going to lend any credence to your earlier statement that you like tweaking builds, and you also have not explained how you have tweaked sabway (if you did) to work better with your paragon, after so many posts.
Nainoa
Darkspirit, you're always in some argument on these forums. Got anything better to do?
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Nainoa
Darkspirit, you're always in some argument on these forums. Got anything better to do?
If there is no arguments then forums would be dead. Having different people with different points of view is what makes an interesting forum.
Unless you want to vote for a forum King in which everyone MUST bow down and agree with on ALL matters (i.e. guild wars and otherwise), no matter what. When that happens I would leave the forums and the rest of you can all be in a state of "perfect agreement" forever.  And make it so that only the forum King can start a thread and all posts within it must be in total agreement otherwise that poster is perm banned. All will be in agreement, but the forums would probably be quite dead.
AcousticMeanie
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Originally Posted by R Langdon
Does a paragon have to play a imbagon? Can i have a little variety? Where did I say there IS a best possible choice for an imbagon team? An Imbagon can maintain AR alone without help, so i don't need the other paras around. Is the Paragon class that limited that it can only play Imbagon or be part of a Rac'way team? To be honest, 99% of the game can be done without the use of TnTF or SY. Ever wonder why we have so many heros? It adds variety. Which is what I am seeking. This is a thread where we are discussing Discord teams right? Thx for the people that did offer some insight into Paragon + Discord Nec's p.s. I never said I was an Imbagon. I said I played a paragon. Paragon != Imbagon. DarksSpirit, did you even read this? You're repeating yourself when you've already been told you're not helping. Back on topic I tried your Discord team dark and it worked fairly well. Only had two minor issues with it. The Healer N/Rt seems to spend way too much time [Rotting Flesh]. They seem to want to spam it and the 3 second cast is just too long IMO without another strong healer. The other being the lack of at least one [Putrid Bile] on the main three setup Other than that not bad
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie
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Did you even read my reply to that? I am too lazy to repeat it again for people who dont read.
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Back on topic I tried your Discord team dark and it worked fairly well. Only had two minor issues with it. The Healer N/Rt seems to spend way too much time [Rotting Flesh]. They seem to want to spam it and the 3 second cast is just too long IMO without another strong healer. The other being the lack of at least one [Putrid Bile] on the main three setup Other than that not bad They shouldn't be spamming it, if the target is already diseased.
AcousticMeanie
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
They shouldn't be spamming it, if the target is already diseased.
Open up the hero window and watch it. There are lots of things heroes "should do" but that by no means ensures they will.
Darkside
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Originally Posted by Washi
wow... this is some retarded statement. What is sabway in your opinion? For me it's SS necro, MB, and N/Rt healer. That's it, no fixed builds, it's a concept. You can change most of the skills on the bars, it encourages creative thinking cause there is so much you can do. And you say like it's ursan.
You are so glued to this "synergy" you talk about but you fail to understand that Racway is worse than sabway in most difficult areas. I will not agree that it's as flexible, far from it. I played many hours using both concepts, adjusting and testing and from my experience Necros are superior in most cases, that's it. I would really like to see someone breezing through slaver's or shards with racway, seriously that would make me thinking. Untill then I can't agree with you. I agree with you Sabway is much easier to mess with and still be effective then rac's Paragons. I know I personally have tried both and I still use a variation of Sabway since its easier and just works better. I have about 5-6 different builds in my template folder for each nec depending on what kinda problems I might run into in a given area/mission. As for Discordway...tried it and thought it was good enough to change my Jagged bones MB's elite to Discord, but that's about as far as that goes.
Antithesis
Good topic. I've been out of the loop for a couple of months and a 6 Hero Discord team looks like worthwhile build.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Antithesis
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Quote: Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie
I had already read it...now keep following the thread and watch as evolution fails us and you revert directly back to the exact same arguments.
Bah, not going to feed the trolls this time.
And you are right, I have not used it in 4-manned areas yet and I have not seen any good 4-man Discordway either.
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My first reaction to Discordway was "Wow" too. The build doesn't look as good on paper as it does in the game.|
Open up the hero window and watch it. There are lots of things heroes "should do" but that by no means ensures they will.
I always open up my hero window and they did not spam it when the target is already diseased. Although I agree that the 3s cast does seem long when targets are typically dying in about 5s. You can try puting 5 ponits to curse and use weaken armor instead and see if that works better. Teutonic Paladin
I've found that using Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armor (I play a warrior when I run discord) are alot easier to run and cheaper than Rotting. I run a hybrid Curse/Death, MM, and Death/Rt.
Carboplatin
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Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin
I've found that using Enfeebling Blood and Weaken Armor (I play a warrior when I run discord) are alot easier to run and cheaper than Rotting. I run a hybrid Curse/Death, MM, and Death/Rt.
oh no. a warrior running discord. better becareful, you might get flamed because you are not allowed to run a discord team if you are not a necro.
Turbobusa
^which is stupid since dismember is so cheap, you can get withering aura on you, and you can bring splinter weapon.
The first discord team I made included me as a warrior and it worked very well.
Dronte
Discord >>> sabway, instant kills are fun.
Zamochit
If there are two players and six heroes I would choose Discord every time. If you are in a situation where it is just you and Hero/Hench and your primary is not Necromancer then Discord loses a great deal of its effectiveness imho.
Drage
indeed, you need imo atleast 4 necro's to let it run well. If you're with only hero/hench, Sabway is better, but when your with 2 humans, Discord is the right way.
rick1027
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Originally Posted by Drage
indeed, you need imo atleast 4 necro's to let it run well. If you're with only hero/hench, Sabway is better, but when your with 2 humans, Discord is the right way.
actually ive run it with an ele ranger and mesmer and necro and seen not that much of a difference
Bloodseeker
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Originally Posted by Drage
indeed, you need imo atleast 4 necro's to let it run well. If you're with only hero/hench, Sabway is better, but when your with 2 humans, Discord is the right way.
thats not true at all , do you know how to play it? 3 necro's is enough as long as you deal damage too (Norn shouts and assa promise will do), it usually runs better than Sabway.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Drage
indeed, you need imo atleast 4 necro's to let it run well. If you're with only hero/hench, Sabway is better, but when your with 2 humans, Discord is the right way.
Not true. Even my necro doesn't use Discord when running Discordway, she uses [[Assassin's Promise]. Which I find it to be more useful because of the skill recharge.
Here is a post showing screenshots of how my mesmer did it with Discordway. And it still kills faster than sabway, I know because my mesmer was using sabway for a long time, until recently. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=39 Discord was buffed AFTER sab posted her build, so it is a later generation of builds.
toastgodsupreme
I used to be a big fan of sabway. Took it where ever I went. Then I loaded up a discord version yesterday and all I can say is, "Wow."
[Healer 1;OAhjUoGa4OV1Y2wUaO5a2ZsLGA] [Healer 2;OAhjUoGa4SVVxMDTSTEPcijTXMA] [MM;OABCUsxUVVMTVAagCYC4iAeA] Everything dies within 5 seconds of my calling it. The only time hexes are an issue are longer lasting snares. Aside from that, it hasn't been an issue so far. I know it has it's weaknesses. I haven't 4 manned with it yet. Been doing 8-man missions in factions to finish getting masters on everything (which has been going great with discordway).
Antithesis
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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit
Welcome back! I miss reading your posts.
Thanks Dark. I had a moment of clarity when i simultaneously hit 1000 posts on Guru, 2000 hours on my primary toon and 3000 total hours in GW and thought...WTF am i doing!Having fun in real life for now. I'll see you guys in GW2.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
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And you are right, I have not used it in 4-manned areas yet and I have not seen any good 4-man Discordway either.
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Originally Posted by Antithesis
Thanks Dark. I had a moment of clarity when i simultaneously hit 1000 posts on Guru, 2000 hours on my primary toon and 3000 total hours in GW and thought...WTF am i doing!
Having fun in real life for now. I'll see you guys in GW2. Yes, we have both been spending too much time in GW. I MAY take the opportunity for a break and not get GW2, especially so if I do get a gaming console - too many games to play and not enough time to play them.
T1Cybernetic
Bah no respawn in real life though
 and energy regen takes ages!
MercenaryKnight
So, I am just curious but wouldn't sabway + discordway (sorry I don't really even know much about it so I am just calling it that) combined be a good combination?
I play a lot of general harder areas, with my friend and she always uses sabway, so I generally have to try and think of a few builds that goes along with it. I usually end up going with a ranger broad head arrow interrupter, savannah heat, splinter weapon, ancestor's fire e/rt and the n/mo word of healing/ protection healer. But it seems like, I could get a lot better mileage if I went and slapped on 2 more necro's and combined discord's damage with utilities, to the sabway build for harder areas. I was just wondering, if anyone had any ideas about whether this would be a good idea or not? Since then all the heroes would get bonus from the sabway mm and near infinite energy.
Washi
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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
So, I am just curious but wouldn't sabway + discordway combined be a good combination?
Sure. But I think 6 discord heroes would make a better team. With sabway + discord you can face a situation when ss'ed monster dies within 3 seconds making your elite hex pretty useless.
MercenaryKnight
Just curious then, if you could advise on a 6 discord necro team? Since to me, I figured combining around maybe 4 discord heroes then the Jagged Bones bomber, and Weapon of remedy healer of sab's would help keep up some of the defense. Along with the curser still having enfeebling blood and maybe shadow of fear with discord elite.
My only fear, is if we go for too much damage we can be overwhelmed in some hard mode missions or dungeons etc.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
My only fear, is if we go for too much damage we can be overwhelmed in some hard mode missions or dungeons etc.
You dont have to worry too much about that because your main attack spell would just be Discord. Besides the necessary hexes and condition inflicting skills to support Discord, you dont really need other damage skills.
This means you can fill half their skill bars, for all 6 heroes, with heals/protects if you wish. Furthermore, there is also a MM in standard Discordway for the meat shields. Personally, I find that Discordway can accomodate more healing than standard sabway, if you choose to. I am at work now, so I cant post my 6-heroes Discord build until later but that is essentially it. NuclearDope
You know, i really didn't believe this would work as well as everyone is saying, i decided to try it today, not only do i feel as safe as with Sabway (still run around aggroing like hell) but the damage output is insane.
I h/h'd Dzagonur HM with no problems if a group went to a defense i wasn't near i ran over (while aggro'd with plenty of enemies, and wiped out the group in seconds.) Also, is a lot of fun for me, placing conditions and hexes then watching their health bar go from 90% to 5% in a second or two is awesome. Recommended.
MercenaryKnight
My main idea, would be to probably keep the jagged bones minion bomber from sab's build, as the only character without discord. Since, the jagged bones will help keep a few meat shields up between battles along with blood of the master. Also, since bone minions die quickly atleast after they die, instead of waiting for an enemy to die and spawn 2 more minions a jagged horror will pop up and hopefully keep the aggro a bit. I also, have my own necro with a sup death rune and have him bring animate shambling horror (the jagged horror on death one). Also going to test out malign intervention, as a cheap spammable hex for whenever enemies have healers. Plus an extra soulreaping bonus when the masterless horror dies can't be too bad.
I haven't been able to try it out, but later i'll probably try doing a hm mission with it and find out. Maybe warband of brothers or something. [heal1;OAhjUoGYITxMKgTOSTDTUbVVJXA] [heal2;OAhjUoGYITxMKgEPTOSTDTVVJXA] [death;OANEUshd9JFzoAqHcUVPEQY0UVB] The healer's pretty much copied off of discordway, the one death's necro is to go along with a minion bomber. Also, friend's healer will bring life spirit so I just put in vengeful weapon just incase. Maybe if physical is a problem sub it out for weapon of warding or resilient weapon. I also don't know if all the heroes will be attempting to put putrid bile on the same enemy, but I know they never stack hexes so as long as they just all don't cast it at the same time it should be up for just about every kill you'll try to make hopefully.
DarkSpirit
Not enough conditions, just relying on bleeding from a jagged attacking the called target is not a good idea. No conditions = no discord.
MercenaryKnight
My condition (you move like a dwarf) as well as enfeebling blood and perhaps weaken armor on a partner curse variation will also be giving the conditions. My personal build, was based on 6 necro's and I just haven't figured out quite yet what I was going to do with my partner's builds.
But yeah, obviously their will be aoe conditions somewhere, as well as personal conditions from our own human builds. Also, going to have her bringing assassin's promise and vanguard assassin support (maybe arcane echo it depending on what she wants to do) with her own copy of finish him as well as one on my character. So at the very least, beginning spike down will be you move like a dwarf, 2 assassins, 2 copies of finish him and necro's discord.
Shayne Hawke
The Discord setup looks more oriented to casters that can cast their own conditions/hexes on a target and let the heroes clean house.
Since I play Ranger, I don't have that option so much. Sabway works just fine for me.
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
The Discord setup looks more oriented to casters that can cast their own conditions/hexes on a target and let the heroes clean house.
Since I play Ranger, I don't have that option so much. Sabway works just fine for me. There are many different customized versions of Discordway, some are more universal than others. A build can choose to bring the conditions on the player characters, but in doing that, the posted build becomes less self-contained because it restricts the skill bars of the players that can use the hero build. Turbobusa
With a ranger you can drop some condition spells and replace them by quick recharge hexes. You can bring BHA + epidemic which gets you AoE daze + minion wall + sick damage and healing.
rick1027
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
The Discord setup looks more oriented to casters that can cast their own conditions/hexes on a target and let the heroes clean house.
Since I play Ranger, I don't have that option so much. Sabway works just fine for me. actually it was with my ranger that i tried the discord for the first time with and having used sabway with my ranger til them. it surpirised me how fast things went down i just modified my ranger build just slightly just to put a hex on it and things dropped and fast i vanquished areas id already done with sabway in about half the time. the thing i think to do if you want to apply the conditions let a hero do a little hexing the build incorporate so much healing it really isnt needed
MercenaryKnight
The only problem I can think of, is giving heroes too many hexes/ conditions may cause them to waste time casting those instead of using the discord for damage. But, that's where a few copies of putrid bile could come in handy at the very least (hex wise). A hero with enfeebling blood and perhaps shadow of fear or weaken armor could also spread conditions.
But I think any character can make the build work. As was said in the imbagon with discord thread. Go /assassin and use assassin's promise, you move like a dwarf, finish him and whatever else you want. Just bring a high energy staff if your a low energy character (paragon or warrior). Existance
i was running 2 ppl + 6 hero build with my friend using discord. We been doing some doa with it on NM. So far finished City and Gloom without much prob. We tried foundry - done it till Fury spawned but then we died due to unprepaired (i didnt know where or when they gonna spawnand we had been all balled up like nubs - thx wiki for no info) - but its for sure possible to do - we didnt use even 1 consumable there. We got prob in veil with hungers and fiends during first quest as they got life steal and intrupts - any ideas how to beat those nasty things without changing build that much? We playing mesmer and paragon with save urself.
MercenaryKnight
The only minor problem with the build. Is that when your being pressured and all your character's health is dropping. All the ai will pretty much drop every single protective was kaolai at the same time. So you get healed minimal amount and then not a single npc has a pot for the next bit of damage.
Turbobusa
You shouldn't wait for the next big damage to come.
Discord focusses on killing, and dead things don't do damage. |
