The only time I would push for using a Superior rune is on a Minion Master, especiall with Flesh Golem.
Other wise the bonus for +1 ( vs using a magor rune) is far to weak to bother.
Infact most of the time the difference between using a minor (14 Attribute) and Superior (16 Attribute) is about 5-10 damage at the best of times!
How can anyone really justify taking 75damge to gain only +5 dmg on skills?
Will the Superior Rune ever make a comeback?
Crom The Pale
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
(Also the guy earlier in the thread who said that the fact that superiors aren't used in PvP show that the cost/benefit of runes is out of balance is completely right. In PvP the bigger numbers on skills don't make up for the greater vulnerability to spiking.)
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If you honestly never die in PvE, then a superior rune is fine. If you're willing to buy a second headpiece + rune, run a superior and a switch. If you're lazy as crap but still recognize that deaths happen in HM, run a minor. If your name is Dunkoro and you love running up to monsters and hugging them, run a minor and full vitae.
Joe Fierce
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
To make a point, the minor-runes-only thing only arose in PvP after they removed armor swapping. If you can only pick one, minor is probably the better choice. However, before armor swapping was removed people would wear a superior rune until they accumulated DP, then swap to a higher HP set.
If you honestly never die in PvE, then a superior rune is fine. If you're willing to buy a second headpiece + rune, run a superior and a switch. If you're lazy as crap but still recognize that deaths happen in HM, run a minor. If your name is Dunkoro and you love running up to monsters and hugging them, run a minor and full vitae. |
Kapral
I always use a Sup rune in pve and I rarely die.
Esan
I always use one superior rune in PvP. Guess which one.
Winterclaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
There are a few skills with hard breakpoints at 15 and 16. Mind blast, minions, spawning power, and expertise come to mind.
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kvndoom
If I'm using a sword or axe, Superior all the way, even in Hard Mode. Never had a problem there. I'll run a minor Hammer Mastery though, since I can't use a shield when attacking.
In PVP, Superior Vigor, duh (unless I need high Expertise for a ranger build).
In PVP, Superior Vigor, duh (unless I need high Expertise for a ranger build).
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
When observed completely impassionately, the fact that minor runes are the way to go when it really matters (i.e., in PvP) indicates that the runing system is not properly balanced, i.e., the malus for major and superior runes is unconditionally larger than the respective bonus.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Well... That's the trade-off, isn't it? Do you more need health so you can survive a couple more hits than you otherwise would, or do you want to have roughly 10% bigger numbers on your skills?....
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Arutima
I don't use superiors at all in pve, except when i play with my necro, doing MM.
Martin Alvito
There's no reason to avoid running a sup for whatever you're running in PvE, since you can always armor swap to the minor. If the monsters are putting a coordinated spike on you, aggro better kthx, or swap out the sup prior to aggroing.
As a result, there's no problem of balance if all you're talking about is PvE.
Sups in PvP largely died after armor swaps were disallowed. Sup runes + DP = gfg.
You could make an argument for reducing the health loss from sups...but how low do we have to go to encourage players to run one? My guess is that the health loss would have to be considerably less than it is at present.
As a result, there's no problem of balance if all you're talking about is PvE.
Sups in PvP largely died after armor swaps were disallowed. Sup runes + DP = gfg.
You could make an argument for reducing the health loss from sups...but how low do we have to go to encourage players to run one? My guess is that the health loss would have to be considerably less than it is at present.
NoXiFy
theirs a +3 norn superior rune? Sick! My ursan needed a buff 
+200 health isnt enough!
tmakinen
When talking about malus, one should also notice that in the current system minor runes come with a hidden malus as well since you always have a choice of using a minor attribute rune or a rune of Vitae. Hence, you are effectively trading away 10 HP for one additional attribute point. Because this is a trade-off that everybody seems to be willing to make we have a hard lower limit on the size of acceptable malus. Now if we take the hidden malus into account with other runes as well we get
People who point out that the 'minors only' policy solidified along with the armor swap prohibition in PvP are absolutely right, and that's the point where a previously existing balance with runes broke down as an unintended consequence. If we work backwards and assume that a trade-off of -15 HP/point would still be marginally acceptable, then the proper malus for each potency would be
And this, of course, for PvP because that's where the balance doesn't currently exist. This is not a suggestion, just an observation.
- minor: -10/1 = -10 HP/point -> acceptable
- major: -(10+35)/2 = -22.5 HP/point -> not acceptable
- superior: -(10+75)/3 = -28.3 HP/point -> not acceptable
People who point out that the 'minors only' policy solidified along with the armor swap prohibition in PvP are absolutely right, and that's the point where a previously existing balance with runes broke down as an unintended consequence. If we work backwards and assume that a trade-off of -15 HP/point would still be marginally acceptable, then the proper malus for each potency would be
- minor -(15*1 - 10) = -5 HP
- major -(15*2 - 10) = -20 HP
- superior -(15*3 - 10) = -35 HP
And this, of course, for PvP because that's where the balance doesn't currently exist. This is not a suggestion, just an observation.
Lyndka
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Damn, I keep missing important memos!
I vanquished Tyria and became legendary guardian and legendary cartographer 100% with H/H, without use of ursan or consumables, and everyone in my team had a superior rune. If only I'd known superiors were death sentences! Seriously, come on. If you find PvE so hard that using superiors is the difference between living and dying, then you probably need to change your build. Superiors are completely viable in PvE. PvP is another matter entirely. |
I think I missed that memo too - I do dungeons without consets or Ursan but apparently that's not allowed either. I do wish someone would create a 'sticky' for these memo's that keep going astray
Queenie
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Originally Posted by StormDragonZ
I'm fine with my Major Vigor Runes.
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Div
Supply and demand. That's why prices have gone down.
A lot of people still use sups and majors.
A lot of people still use sups and majors.
Davros Uitar
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Damn, I keep missing important memos!
I vanquished Tyria and became legendary guardian and legendary cartographer 100% with H/H, without use of ursan or consumables, and everyone in my team had a superior rune. If only I'd known superiors were death sentences! Seriously, come on. If you find PvE so hard that using superiors is the difference between living and dying, then you probably need to change your build. Superiors are completely viable in PvE. PvP is another matter entirely. |
EPO Bot
Always using two majors.
Superior is nice for eles tough.
Superior is nice for eles tough.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Lyndka
I think I missed that memo too - I do dungeons without consets or Ursan but apparently that's not allowed either. I do wish someone would create a 'sticky' for these memo's that keep going astray |
1 hour later, area was vanquished, heroes leveled from ~16 to ~19 (they were not runed at all) while my character got level in badass (L20 but only Ventari armor, some random weapon he was muling, no elites, 20att quests not done yet, wammo built for amusement).
You don't need perfect setup to do most of stuff, but it really is silly to deny yourself "baseline" power. I would expect everyone to be equipped in way they deem best.
VinnyRidira
I have never seen the point for superior runes and I have played 11 characters for the 10 professions. Majors are a total waste of time. I suppose the superiors are only good for 55hp build.
Evil_Necro
superior runes..
Used to use it a lot. On my Ele and Necro (DM) though.
Now, however, not so much. all minors and 1 major.
We need more healths! give me superior massive vigor rune now!
Oh well...
Used to use it a lot. On my Ele and Necro (DM) though.
Now, however, not so much. all minors and 1 major.
We need more healths! give me superior massive vigor rune now!
Oh well...
Rhamia Darigaz
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Originally Posted by Esan
I always use one superior rune in PvP. Guess which one.
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thral
Theyre fine, if they change no more 55 O_O!!! Not that i care :P. If you die and blame them remember:
A professional never blames his tools.
A professional never blames his tools.
Rhamia Darigaz
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Originally Posted by thral
Theyre fine, if they change no more 55 O_O!!! Not that i care :P. If you die and blame them remember:
A professional never blames his tools. |
Shadowhaze
Depending on the profession, I'll use a sup rune and maybe vigor rune(s) to help with the health. And as others have said, you could armor swap when you need too. Trading off health for a bit more spell potency is ok with me. Would it be nice not to have the health trade off? Sure.
Oh and...no more 55 monky? That would make me sad.
Oh and...no more 55 monky? That would make me sad.
Abedeus
I use Superior only on my Ranger farming armor set (+1 mask +3 wilderness), 50/330/bip setups for, respectively, Monk or Rit, Rit and Ranger. Oh, and my Ritualist Communing (but I've got 2 communing headwraps, one +1 and one +3). And smiter monkie/smiter mesmer have +3 smite and +3 illusion respectively. Oh, and paragon, but I still have over 510 health. Limitless energy ftw, so I dont need attunement/radiant insignias/runes. Oh, and elementalist with Earth headgear for solo tanking, as it boosts my chances of surviving, makes OF maintaining easier and speeds up killing.
Other chars, assassin, rit, mesmer, monk and pvp monk, other pvp chars have minors.
Other chars, assassin, rit, mesmer, monk and pvp monk, other pvp chars have minors.
Dante the Warlord
Superior runes made a comeback with the intro of the new buffed SF... Well just that one, but i think they could make a comeback with a new innovative build that requires high attribute level.
Ozric
I run Sup+Maj rune combos on myself and all of my heroes,...
Have I been doing it wrong? o.O
Have I been doing it wrong? o.O
AshenX
I run a superior rune on most of my characters. As has been said before...if that 75 health is the difference between success and failure at a mission/vanquish, whatever then there are more serious problems in your party than suprerior runes.
That said I will admit that I am ready to armor swap if things go really badly and I need a few extra HP.
That said I will admit that I am ready to armor swap if things go really badly and I need a few extra HP.
Kanyatta
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Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz
unless for example you happen to be a musician and your trombone gets rusty. how are you supposed to play that?
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enter_the_zone
I don't run sup runes, because the breakpoint of most of my builds skills is such that I don't need them. The tradeoff isn't worth it.
For specific builds, I still use them, but it's rare.
For specific builds, I still use them, but it's rare.
Spazzer
Damage is pretty easy to do these days. You don't need a superior rune to get it, and wearing a superior rune makes you really squishy.
Lady Raenef
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Originally Posted by ALF71BE
You know what is funny...
That some people actually buy them. |
As for the rest, they're all minor. I'd rather keep my health.
Grunntar
I'm curious... For all those people that wouldn't put a superior (attribute) rune on a hero, do you use vigor runes for your heroes?
Are you saying that you wouldn't put on a superior (attribute) rune on your heroes because your heroes don't have any vigor runes either?
Or is it that you'd never put on a superior (attribute) rune, no matter what...?
It's either a tough slog to earn 250 minor vigor runes, (one for each hero, spread across 10 characters), or it's really expensive.
Or perhaps you have a small number of vigor runes, and just keep moving them around between heroes. That gets expensive too, with all the salvage kits that you can expend...
Are you saying that you wouldn't put on a superior (attribute) rune on your heroes because your heroes don't have any vigor runes either?
Or is it that you'd never put on a superior (attribute) rune, no matter what...?
It's either a tough slog to earn 250 minor vigor runes, (one for each hero, spread across 10 characters), or it's really expensive.
Or perhaps you have a small number of vigor runes, and just keep moving them around between heroes. That gets expensive too, with all the salvage kits that you can expend...
Lady Raenef
To answer the above question, I have no runes on any of my heroes. They also just use /bonus weapons, however, they get along just fine.
glacialphoenix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grunntar
I'm curious... For all those people that wouldn't put a superior (attribute) rune on a hero, do you use vigor runes for your heroes?
Are you saying that you wouldn't put on a superior (attribute) rune on your heroes because your heroes don't have any vigor runes either? Or is it that you'd never put on a superior (attribute) rune, no matter what...? It's either a tough slog to earn 250 minor vigor runes, (one for each hero, spread across 10 characters), or it's really expensive. Or perhaps you have a small number of vigor runes, and just keep moving them around between heroes. That gets expensive too, with all the salvage kits that you can expend... |
Lishy
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Originally Posted by komma
dang ive been running w sup runes on my headpieces this whole time
/facepalm |
I give heroes Major though
glountz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
When talking about malus, one should also notice that in the current system minor runes come with a hidden malus as well since you always have a choice of using a minor attribute rune or a rune of Vitae. Hence, you are effectively trading away 10 HP for one additional attribute point. Because this is a trade-off that everybody seems to be willing to make we have a hard lower limit on the size of acceptable malus. Now if we take the hidden malus into account with other runes as well we get
People who point out that the 'minors only' policy solidified along with the armor swap prohibition in PvP are absolutely right, and that's the point where a previously existing balance with runes broke down as an unintended consequence. If we work backwards and assume that a trade-off of -15 HP/point would still be marginally acceptable, then the proper malus for each potency would be
And this, of course, for PvP because that's where the balance doesn't currently exist. This is not a suggestion, just an observation. |
That's the case for Vigor runes, where sup ones are a lot better than minor ones.
As such I would prefer:
- minor -(10*1 - 10) = -0 HP
- major -(9*2 - 10) = -8 HP, round to -10 HP.
- superior -(8*3 - 10) = -14 HP, rounded to -15 HP.
And you would give back sup runes a true interest. Because actually, sup runes are just a drawback.
Divinus Stella
Most people arguments focus around the health loss claiming that the 75HP health cap they lose isn't worth the 15~ extra HP they get from a spell like heal party, but i don't see any justification for people wanting more HP.
I assume most PvE players just use ursan blessing and have a bunch of monks stood around at the back spamming party buffs, that extra 15HP from heal party used hundreds of times during a clearing adds up to much more than the 75HP health loss on the monk.
Also why on earth does the monk need to have 700HP? he could have 100HP and still see no negative effect unless hes tanking the mobs himself which i think means that the bears failed badly and its party wipe time regardless.
I've been at 450HP since i started playing the game, all my heroes are at roughly the same HP because i give them all superior runes and 40/40 sets as to get the most of their builds, ive vanquished the entire game with heros and hench and not had any problems and i don't ever bother with a tank or using agro control i just lure everything in sight and nuke it, 1 healer, 1 prot and 6 fully buffed damage dealers can take care of any mob without any deaths, i think the mistake most people make in PvE is that they play too defensively giving time for the enemy to actually use their skills.
Surely the only person that should worry about having a decent health cap in a team is the person that's tanking, if the casters in the team actually reach a point where 75HP is the difference between life and death then they have already failed.
I assume most PvE players just use ursan blessing and have a bunch of monks stood around at the back spamming party buffs, that extra 15HP from heal party used hundreds of times during a clearing adds up to much more than the 75HP health loss on the monk.
Also why on earth does the monk need to have 700HP? he could have 100HP and still see no negative effect unless hes tanking the mobs himself which i think means that the bears failed badly and its party wipe time regardless.
I've been at 450HP since i started playing the game, all my heroes are at roughly the same HP because i give them all superior runes and 40/40 sets as to get the most of their builds, ive vanquished the entire game with heros and hench and not had any problems and i don't ever bother with a tank or using agro control i just lure everything in sight and nuke it, 1 healer, 1 prot and 6 fully buffed damage dealers can take care of any mob without any deaths, i think the mistake most people make in PvE is that they play too defensively giving time for the enemy to actually use their skills.
Surely the only person that should worry about having a decent health cap in a team is the person that's tanking, if the casters in the team actually reach a point where 75HP is the difference between life and death then they have already failed.
isildorbiafra
All people including I always run a SUPERIOR rune...............of VIGOR! So, I say superior is here to stay!
isildorbiafra
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Originally Posted by Lady Raenef
To answer the above question, I have no runes on any of my heroes. They also just use /bonus weapons, however, they get along just fine.
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