How would you make PvE more challenging? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Shikaru

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

04 Aug 2008 at 02:05 - 1

While reading the numerous QQ threads about Ursan, I started thinking about how to change mob composition in PvE in order to make it more interesting.

So here are my suggested changes: (these ideas only apply to level 20 areas and also assumes that no matter where you are, mobs have access to all skills and professions.)

1) Give every balanced mob a monk with a decent skill bar. Spirit bond would be a primary skill that these monks would have since it counters "Hulk Smash" mentality. Also Ursans would have a hard time killing someone with Spirit Bond on them.

2) Give every balanced mob some form of monk shutdown/pressure. Shattering Assault sins come to mind or a dom mesmer that actually sits on your monk.

3) Have mobs that run varied gimmicks. A single zone could have a group of ViM trappers and a group of rodgorts invocation spike. This is a stretch but maybe even a group with Fevered Dreams/Fragility and a Temple Strike Assassin.

So what are your ideas? Keep in mind that this thread is only for changing mobs or even how some quests work and not nerfing skills. Please don't bring NERF URSAN (or nerf anything for that matter) into this thread.

Try to keep the suggestions reasonable (no "make all mobs have 30 attribute in fire and 10k HP" suggestions). Be as specific or as general as you like. Discuss.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Aug 2008 at 02:09 - 2

Basic skill use. Skills used in combination with each other and basic AI of kiting in general. Decent skillbrs and basic "player" skill. Also when aggro'd it can't be de-aggro'd and knows to swap targets when blocking, SoA and other mitigation prots go up.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

04 Aug 2008 at 02:15 - 3

Remove PvE skills.
Remove consumables.

Give mobs well-developed skillbars, possibly developed by PvP players or adapted from ones being run in high end GvG and HA. Write new AI that is smarter. Adjust different types of enemies' AI so they understand how to run specific builds they're given.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

04 Aug 2008 at 02:19 - 4

For one, make it so you can't use the Holy Trinity: When one party member aggroes a monster, that monster mob is aware of all party members, not just the one in the aggro range.

That aside, "basic" additions, such as Mithran's ideas, always make things a bit more interesting.

Thizzle

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008

04 Aug 2008 at 02:22 - 5

I would say Hard Mode.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

04 Aug 2008 at 02:23 - 6

Ban Ursan.

lol12char

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

04 Aug 2008 at 02:26 - 7

Give the AI better pathing. As long as it is possible to bodyblock the ai into possitions that they can't escape, then pve is trivial.

MisterT69

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2007

Scions of Carver [SCAR]

E/

04 Aug 2008 at 02:39 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Ban Ursan.

lol12char

If that's your idea of making PVE more challenging....wow, not like there's better builds than ursan, o wait...

Just give the mobs Ursan, that's all really lol

Thizzle

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2008

04 Aug 2008 at 02:45 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterT69

If that's your idea of making PVE more challenging....wow, not like there's better builds than ursan, o wait...

Just give the mobs Ursan, that's all really lol

If mobs get Ursan than we might as well change the professions to Ursan and Monk.

Marverick

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/

04 Aug 2008 at 02:45 - 10

#1. Better skillbars. It's not that hard to implement and would go a long way towards improving AI, and in general, the game itself.

#2. Better AI. As said, AI just do too many stupid things right now. For example, they like to shoot at walls and see how many rocks they can destroy.

#3. More shutdown. Mobs need to have a mix of anti-caster and anti-melee. Balanced mobs should have an even blend of both, and one or two profession mobs can lean more heavily towards one side. Gimmicks would also be a good idea to destroy unprepared and reckless teams.

#4. And finally.... I know you said you don't want to hear this, but... balance Ursan. As it is, Ursan is basically immune to shutdown. Even with the best builds and AI, 5x150 damage is pretty much an instant kill that is repeatable every 5 seconds.

Also, this should be kept to hard mode only. Implementing it in normal mode would hurt the casual player group too much.

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

Shikaru

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

04 Aug 2008 at 02:56 - 11

Quote:

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

I think some suggestions stated here would be a better version of HM and could probably replace the current HM we have now. Making monsters imba seems like a pretty lazy way to do it.

If HM was changed for mobs to have better skill bars vs hit for 100 dmg every hit, we could remove consumables from the game.

While I wanted to stay away from Ursan, the idea of giving mobs the ability to use Ursan (or maybe even a more powerful/slightly varied version of Ursan) is an interesting one.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

04 Aug 2008 at 03:04 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

PvE skills/consumables are really fine. In hard mode, consumables only serve to bridge the gap between players and monsters. After all, monsters have like +5 to all their attributes, +20 armor, +200 something health, 50% faster moving, casting, and recharging, etc. inherently.

There's no need to create a bridge because a bridge already exists. The monsters were given all of those overpowered "perks" because the AI does not and will not ever meet the superiority that is the player.

Aera Lure

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

In Baltar's head

Bring Out Your Dead [BOYD], former officer [LBS]

Mo/

04 Aug 2008 at 03:15 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Give mobs well-developed skillbars, possibly developed by PvP players or adapted from ones being run in high end GvG and HA. Write new AI that is smarter. Adjust different types of enemies' AI so they understand how to run specific builds they're given.

Pretty much this. It would of course include shutdown and other build suggestions mentioned by others. The insane reflex ability of mobs, interrupting your 1/4 cast time spells, may need to be tempered in some fashion to be slightly more "human", since mobs having much better builds and the knowledge to use them would become quite interesting. Might even help to serve as the primer for PvP that PvE was once thought of.

I'd then drop Ursan's ability to be used outside of specific areas in EotN for story purposes, or nerf it considerably, since it removes the concept of actually having character classes in the first place. I dont see a problem with other PvE skills in this adjusted context.

Consumables are probably ok as well, since as mentioned elsewhere, they merely keep you on par, or just closer, to enemy stats in HM. The buff in mob builds and AI would surely compensate for consumables remaining in the game.

I'd aim for making it too hard, first. Bring back the need to work with others online, as opposed to snoozing through guiding Heroes through the game. Then scale back the difficulty slightly as needed, so that the average player can play through Normal. HM should ideally require human teams in my opinion, or an extremely skilled leader of Heroes. Up the HM rewards if this is the case.

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

04 Aug 2008 at 03:16 - 14

Mainly just boils down to not giving them retarded skill bars with only 3~5 skills. Give them actual secondary profession usage and full bars / balanced groups. Be creative in the design- make different areas have monsters that carry unique skill combos amongst each other making each area feel different from the other. Currently 95% of mobs basically come down to some form of defense and some sort of damage. Shutdown and build synergy are almost non-existent, and when it is existent it is ussually in a dumbed down form or random location which encourages a very degenerate style of play that focuses on nothing but beatdown.

This is actually one of the reasons why I hated gw pve. It seems the designers made no real attempt to create interesting builds. I wouldn't be surprised if a random number generator was used to decide what went where.

TL;DR don't be a lazy designer.

optymind

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

A/E

04 Aug 2008 at 03:25 - 15

From reading these posts I get the impression people are FORCED to use PVE skills and cons.

Aera Lure

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

In Baltar's head

Bring Out Your Dead [BOYD], former officer [LBS]

Mo/

04 Aug 2008 at 03:28 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by optymind

From reading these posts I get the impression people are FORCED to use PVE skills and cons.

No, but having them overpowered in the game as currently balanced means its silly and Quixotic not to use them (and I dont, and I realize I just called myself silly lol). I can make the game harder for myself by using only four skills in my bar instead of eight. We can all do that. Game balance is balanced by developers for a reason. Its not player determined.

Gregslot

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Me/

04 Aug 2008 at 03:30 - 17

Your ideas (wich have been suggested before).
Mithran's ideas (wich have also been suggested before) but not exactly like that.

*Some monsters dont even have 8 skills.
*Add more monsters skills like:
"Out of my way": All adjacents foes are moved to a nerby random location and are knocked down. (bye bye tank'n'spank)
*Nerf ursan (or moronway, seriously, only 3 buttons?)

Monsters dont need to be balanced, they can have unlimited energy (hence Charr Wardkeeper), can have multiple elites and can have over 2 secondary professions.
Whats stoping you?

edit: The new Charr and the new Stone Summit have nice builds.

mr_stealth

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

I Gots A Crayon[Blue]

Mo/Me

04 Aug 2008 at 03:43 - 18

I like the suggestions Marverick made. I'd like to see that implemented into HM instead of just having overpowered monsters that are just as dumb. Right now the only thing making HM hard is a monster being able to do 150+dmg in a single hit. Blind it, and its the same level of difficulty as killing it in NM, but with better loot. Give the monster a secondary profession and the ability to remove that blind, and it becomes more of a challenge. This might require some tweaking of the mob level/attributes, but would be fun even if some of the mobs were a bit too hard for some people.

Anet already took a small step in the right direction with the Charr and Dwarves in EotN. They have 2 professions and better skillbars than most other monsters. I was surprised to see monster mesmers ressing and monks with interrupts/e-management.

Ariena Najea

Silence and Motion

Join Date: Jul 2006

Buffalo NY

New Horizon [NH]

04 Aug 2008 at 03:52 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikaru

1) Give every balanced mob a monk with a decent skill bar. Spirit bond would be a primary skill that these monks would have since it counters "Hulk Smash" mentality. Also Ursans would have a hard time killing someone with Spirit Bond on them.

The AI monsters who currently use Life Bond will not use it until your or an ally goes within aggro range of the mob. At this point, even if the monk is under attack, it will still attempt to life bond at least one person (note the centaur lifebond in the shiverpeaks), in which time even an incompetent group could kill or severely damage the monk.

Monsters do far better with quick spammable skills, such as glimmer of light and shield guardian.

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

04 Aug 2008 at 04:04 - 20

I don't want to make any changes to PvE. It's fine the way it is.

If you want to make changes for challenge, add more meaningless quests to gain experience, gold and random consumables under the Master Difficulty Quest name.

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

04 Aug 2008 at 04:06 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

There's no need to create a bridge because a bridge already exists. The monsters were given all of those overpowered "perks" because the AI does not and will not ever meet the superiority that is the player.

I agree. However, the AI sure could use an improvement. Give them dual classes, hard res'es, formations and tactics, EFFECTIVE skill bars, target priorities... I'm no programmer, I'll admit it. But isn't it possible?

We didn't -need- the bridge but Anet, IMO, thought we did. The monsters are OPed... so they've given in and let us be as OP'ed as them imagining we'd be happy.

Which reminds me of the post I just made in the other thread. Just badly implemented stuff from ANet.

My suggestions:

- Nerf Ursan.
- Better AI from foes AND heroes - tactics, target priority, build usage.
- Effective skill bars on foes AND henchies.
- Access to all classes.

Shikaru

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mo/

04 Aug 2008 at 04:14 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

The AI monsters who currently use Life Bond will not use it until your or an ally goes within aggro range of the mob. At this point, even if the monk is under attack, it will still attempt to life bond at least one person (note the centaur lifebond in the shiverpeaks), in which time even an incompetent group could kill or severely damage the monk.

Monsters do far better with quick spammable skills, such as glimmer of light and shield guardian.

Notice I said SPIRIT Bond and not LIFE Bond.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

04 Aug 2008 at 04:26 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I agree. However, the AI sure could use an improvement. Give them dual classes, hard res'es, formations and tactics, EFFECTIVE skill bars, target priorities... I'm no programmer, I'll admit it. But isn't it possible?

It's very possible, and already exists in a few areas. Plenty of EOTN mobs have very well built skill bars. The dwarves in Slaver's Exile have a very solid balanced build, and the charr run solid melee pressure builds. Sadly, all that work is completely negated by broken PvE skills, overpowered title tracks, consumables, and dumber-than-rocks AI.

To fix it, they'd need:

1) No PvE skills/consumables/title tracks with effects. - Yes, they're fun, but they're not even close to balanced. The closer the game is to PvP, the more challenging and engaging it will be.

2) Basic AI updates. This doesn't even need to be anything all that fancy, a few basic things like "don't attack walls", "don't spam attacks through SS while standing next to your friends", and "beat the life out of the squishies, but don't beat on tanks fruitlessly".

3) Don't punish deaths as heavily. In PvE, DP stacks up really quickly if you're taking one or two deaths in every fight. However, intelligent mobs should be expected to score a kill or two on all but the best teams. To balance this out, they either need to make zones smaller to never allow DP to stack up, or give large HA-style morale boosts after every fight.

EDIT: After I finished rambling, I noticed you said the same thing in your post, but shorter. But, neener neener, you didn't copyright it.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

04 Aug 2008 at 05:36 - 24

About the AI, all Anet would have to do is a few things:

Like Strangelove said, make them not attack through obstructions, but instead find a way to hit you until they hit you. Example: They run around the wall and attack you, if you hide behind another, then they chase you there.

Don't use skills when you have anti-usage effects on you, like SS, Shame, etc.

They should also change up targets, instead of going after the same person repeatedly, whether it be a squishy or a warrior/paragon. Especially if they're getting blocked or not out damaging the healing.

Cons should be out yes, I like them cause I'm bad at the game and they make things easier, but I don't play much anymore and I like the people who are good at the game so I think they should have a harder more challenging time like they want. The PvE skills can stay but they should be balanced. There shouldn't be instant boss killers like Pain Inverter.

Hell if it's possible I think it would be cool if Anet implemented a system where the monsters were either smart or lacking in brains..depending on what they are/what condition they are in. Maybe that is something for Guild Wars 2 though.

I don't think damage should be doubled, I don't mind fast cast times, I also don't mind fast attack speeds, this being for HM. Like Strangelove said those Dwarves in EoTN in that one dungeon and Slavers are pretty damn hard, even on NM (well for one such as me), simply because of their builds and team setup.

What I don't like about that is the fact in HM they do double damage. It makes it too hard unless you use Ursan or Cons or go with some type of invici build like Imbagon setup. It would be nice if we came to a point where there were certain builds you should be using for the area (Kind of there now), but more than 1 for each class. I suppose that won't happen in Guild Wars now though, since we have 1 person doing everything.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

E/

04 Aug 2008 at 05:43 - 25

put a bunch of mobs right outside of all the outposts/town exit. i mean really really big mobs, only by killing these can you go enjoy the rest of the map. these mobs should all have a -500 hp per hit capability.

draxynnic

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2005

[CRFH]

04 Aug 2008 at 06:44 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thizzle

If mobs get Ursan than we might as well change the professions to Ursan and Monk.

You mean they aren't already?

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

04 Aug 2008 at 06:50 - 27

I would make every mob without exception rankspike dead people.

Preferably bambis, to maximise the humiliation.

also give them 2 professions, balanced skillbars etc etc

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

04 Aug 2008 at 07:14 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by around

I would make every mob without exception rankspike dead people.

Preferably bambis, to maximise the humiliation.

also give them 2 professions, balanced skillbars etc etc

That reminds me of that time in Apsy when a bunch of Kurzicks took me down.
This warrior dude then ranks me - wasn't bambi - thinking he's all that.
So then he runs into me again - I take him down - and since I am NOT ranked all I could do was /bow.

I am guessing that the bambi wouldn't be the most embarrassing thing in such cases.

On-topic:
Challenging PvE has a point if the game is balanced.
If it won't be - I'd rather have a fun game.

Just make sure that in GW2 there is no Protective Spirit mechanic.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

04 Aug 2008 at 10:05 - 29

I would add randomness:
- Random bonuses for monsters (Resistances and immunities to certain skills, conditions, skill types, types of damage, etc...)
- Random quests to be made.

PvE can't be balanced, because it's designed to win each battle flawlessly, to kill 400 monsters without a single death in the player side while PvP is designed to have similar number of casualties in both sides.
So the only way to make it fun is to make it change, so the same build can't work easily in every area every time.

Random skills would have a lot of problems, since it would require a lot of time of testing and making sure the skills ahve synergy and such. But random resistances and immunities won't.

Make a team that deals all types of damage and all conditions and ding! You can fight anywhere!
Make a team that just deals two types of damage and two conditions, and you'll end up with enemies that are immune to anything you have.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

04 Aug 2008 at 11:01 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Remove PvE skills.
Remove consumables.

Give mobs well-developed skillbars, possibly developed by PvP players or adapted from ones being run in high end GvG and HA. Write new AI that is smarter. Adjust different types of enemies' AI so they understand how to run specific builds they're given.

This is the best answer possible. However, I don't think AI can be that intelligent.

Making pre-sear and the noob islands more challenging would help also.

Dumping consumables would be a start though. It is pretty pathetic people use these even in easy mode.

the Puppeteer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2007

04 Aug 2008 at 11:27 - 31

remove heros from pve

Accursed

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

04 Aug 2008 at 11:33 - 32

Advanced skill usage by a monster. PvE skills used by the monsters.

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

04 Aug 2008 at 11:42 - 33

8 skills and two professions for every monster with a decent skillbar is enough for normal gameplay and hard mode in general.

Anything more should go in a different mode for pve , the lets pretend this is pvp-mode without consumables and pve skills.

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

04 Aug 2008 at 11:53 - 34

Anything done to make PvE harder this late in the game's life would be manifestly unfair to those who haven't gotten their GWAMM title already and should therefore not be done.

Skye Marin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2006

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

E/A

04 Aug 2008 at 12:13 - 35

Adding content.

Add a new third tier of difficulty that removes consumables, PvE-skills, and heroes, and tie mission and dungeon completion (and a new title) to it. Increase rewards here too, and add some random monster spawns to prevent tank n' spank, 600/smite, and minion rolling.

This way, all previous content remains untouched and nobody loses anything.

Complete description here, with tons of logic and theory:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10299371

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

04 Aug 2008 at 12:52 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Anything done to make PvE harder this late in the game's life would be manifestly unfair to those who haven't gotten their GWAMM title already and should therefore not be done.

TBH if anything this game's gotten fairly easy. If made harder it'll become pretty much my reason to play, just to show people areas can still be done with the skills we have access to. I'm at R5 KOABD and I'm lacking motivation to finish it. At least I'll have something to work on when I start playing more than 30mins.-1hr. per 2-3 days.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

04 Aug 2008 at 13:19 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Anything done to make PvE harder this late in the game's life would be manifestly unfair to those who haven't gotten their GWAMM title already and should therefore not be done.

I don't have GWAMM yet and I oppose to this quote. Challenge is good, and right now PvE is stale, easy and just not a challenge at all.

Mouse at Large

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Scotland

Fuzzy Physics Institute

E/

04 Aug 2008 at 13:19 - 38

Point 1. There are so-called "elite" area in the game already. How many people actually go there????

Point 2. If you made a new "OMIGAWD ITS REALLY TOUGH!!!!" difficulty level, that depends on all human groups then you are going to exclude a lot of people who actually enjoy/have no option other than playing H/H.

I'm reasonably happy just to see good tweaks to skills to balance the game.

N1ghtstalker

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2007

E/

04 Aug 2008 at 13:25 - 39

reintroducing elite missions like The Deep and Urgoz with new rewards and lock the use of pve skills like in pvp areas

Kusandaa

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

N/Mo

04 Aug 2008 at 13:31 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Point 1. There are so-called "elite" area in the game already. How many people actually go there????

Point 2. If you made a new "OMIGAWD ITS REALLY TOUGH!!!!" difficulty level, that depends on all human groups then you are going to exclude a lot of people who actually enjoy/have no option other than playing H/H.

I'm reasonably happy just to see good tweaks to skills to balance the game.

Let's see the elite areas.

FoW: Decent groups.
UW: Decent groups.

DOA: Decent groups... depends of your time zone IMO.

The Deep: Dead.
Urgoz: Dead.

Slavers: No idea, I haven't set a foot in Umbral for a while now.

Make new zones hard? The casual player who's used to access to everything will whine. Make it relatively available, the hardcore players will complain that it's overfarmed, overcrowded and full of morons who don't know the game. IMO the community is never happy with the updates, adding new zones won't solve the problem. I can understand, however, that you CANNOT make everyone happy.