Mysterious Stranger

Maybe its just Zinn, he can lie about stranger cant he? Asuras are E V I L !!

Asura are too arrogant. Causing chaos for the Human Race would be wasted time that could of been spent doing something smarter.

quote from wiki

Just because they believe that, doesnt mean they want to eradicate all humans.

Why would Zinn create Golems in order to kill the human leaders and then send off a force of humans to take out those Golems, thus meaning that there was no point to actually creating the Golems because in the end, three were destroyed and one was taken by the humans, leaving him with the worse one. I know the Asura are all for experiments with dangerous outcomes but M.O.X appears to be a very valuable Golem - i think he would of gone about it in a different way that didnt include him losing M.O.X.

I stand by the livia theory, maybe less so than the the mursaat conjecture, but they wouldn't show livia gaining the scepter for no reason. Even if she found it years after the golem assassination incident, she could still be responsible for it, and it shows she seeks objects of power for unknown motives(I don't think she want's the scepter for a 6 foot long swizzle stick...). The thing is still an artifact of extreme power, and has been used as a superweapon(if raising hoards of undead to wage war on your behalf doesn't classify as superweapon, what the hell does...) The power of the scepter has been abused, that's why it was sealed away(absolute power, corrupts absolutely, you don't necessarily need abaddon to be an ass... she could be the agent of another force too).

No-one I can think of in the game had connections to the golemancers, the bloodstones, knowledge of the jungle, relative motive, expressed interest in arcane energies, matched the profile of someone who would resort to assassination attempts... The only other people in the game who I can recall might be the stone summit, the thing in sorrows furnace looks as though it was manufactured by asurans(there are pieces of it in oola's lab). There are bloodstones in the shiverpeaks, the stone summit hate everybody, there are outlets from the shiverpeaks to cantha at least, though they have no motive to attack elona other then generic world domination...

During the EotN game as I understand it the shining blade, mantle and lionguard were in some sort of civil war, If salma were made a martyr it would be a unifying force with a clear scapegoat(remember zinn was supposed to die).
and dig this: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:LiviaUnlocked.jpg



Xien might be an agent of the stranger, but that bean eating freak is not the stranger... though I wouldn't put it past A-net to give some random miniboss or do nothing race a whole new backstory and lame motives... besides as I understand it he does die in during the raid on oola's lab.

The conundrum is, anyone who would want to kill 1 or more of the targets has no clear motive to attack the others... unless they invent more lore.

I still dont see your explanation about Elona and Cantha. Why would Livia send off Golems to targets that have nothing to do with Kryta? no need to cover tracks because its all going to be blamed on Zinn anyway. What i was actually getting at with the whole Scepter of Orr thing is that, for all we know shes still searching for that. So shes preoccupied with finding/using the Scepter rather than sending off very powerful Golems. Do you think she would go through all the trouble of finding the Scepter and then randomly change plans to instead affect other continents shes probably never been too?

And with Xien i was aiming at the employer being the one who did it rather than Xien coming back from the grave.

She never gains it, she never takes it, in fact the cut scene seems to indicate uncertainty. I would say her thoughts went something like this:

"This was the Scepter Evennia gave to Vizier Khilbron..He claimed to use it to control the Undead of Orr..And he commanded the Titans to attack Kryta, Ascalon, the Deldrimor Dwarves, and my fellow comrades. Do I want to risk unleashing this kind of power on Kryta for the sake of the people? Would there ever be order after this or would there be continued war as power hungry war lords try to claim the Scepter for their own?"

Her motives are to find an artifact that can give them the edge they need in their war to restore the royalty and order to Kryta.

Not to mention the fact that humans, whether they be Undead or not, clearly can't use it responsibly.

The Iron Forgeman was not developed by the Asura. It was, in fact, created by the Stone Summit. However, the pieces seen in Oola's lab are her working on reverse-engineering them to understand how they function.

...An even more unifying force would just be her as a symbol of hope, for the future, to shed the manipulative forces behind their leadership. The Shining Blade and Lionguard are working together to fight against the White Mantle, this is true, and obviously that means there is a Krytan Civil War occurring.

We have Dhuum, he seems rather likely, Menzies..Well, not so much as Dhuum, but if they're working together it would work.

Also, we have solid lore on the Mursaat that provides plenty of reason to attack all humans. The interesting part is that if it did happen to be the Mursaat, we would need an explanation of how they know of the other human civilizations. How? Easy. Both Canthans and Elonians come to Lion's Arch requesting help at one point in time or another, it would take self-imposed ignorance to not know of this contact.

I would say its very easy to find out whos important in Cantha and Elona. All they need to hear is that Cantha is ran by an Emperor, and Vabbi is greatly influenced by the three merchent princes - after that its just the sending of the Golems to carry out their missions, they have to take care of.

The Mursaat must at least know of Cantha, and it wouldnt take long to hear about Elona, with the near end of the world experience that had happened (i would guess Justiciar Naveed knows about Kormirs ascension). Infact the Mursaat probably know alot more than we think they do.

The Asura live in the depths which run all over Tyria so i'm guessing they have some knowledge of the Emperor and the Princes. All it would take is the person to force the right information (such as names) out of Zinn.

There is no support that the undead and Titans were really controlled by the Scepter of Orr. Khilbron was a lich and commanded the Undead way before he had the scepter. The Titans might have been ordered by Abaddon to "follow the dude with the stick," or Khilbron was able to control the Titans because he can control undead and the Titans are formed by twisted souls, and spirits are a form of undead. So, it's not a superweapon, in the sense you are saying. But it is a powerful weapon (way that is so is unknown).

What I meant before by Khilbron was corrupted by Abaddon was that the corruption was not caused by the Scepter. In this sense, your "livia was corrupted" has no hold other then a hypothesis.

I already said that Livia did not have connections to golemancers other then working with ONE for as long as our characters did. Did you see how they were built? Or anything of the sort? Gadd was not a golemancer, he researched/created power sources, not golems. The bloodstones are still a bit of a mistery, even to the Shining Blade, the only ones with a very reasonable amount of knowledge of the Bloodstones would be the Mursaat. The Shining Blade are just now starting to learn. Motive, revenge on the humans is something nearly every non-human race wants (aside from Dredge, Forgotten, Norn, and Asura). And I don't see how Livia "matches the profile of someone who would resort to assassination attempts" while Lazarus or Dhuum, or any other hiding/weak enemy would not.

Leon stated how it's been proven that the Iron Forgeman was found by Oola, created by the Stone Summit. It's been proven by ANet staff. And what do you mean "outlets from the shiverpeaks to cantha" Tyria and Cantha are no where near connected. And if you mean into the Echovald Forest, via tunnels created by escaped Dredge, they'd probably target Count Zu Heltzer and try to re-enslave the Dredge there.

Lazarus, Dhuum, Menzies (less then Dhuum but still), Charr Shaman(they hate all humans), Tengu (only if the clans are in contact with each other), Centaurs (only if the prides are in contact with each other), Underworld criminals (just your typical plotting human villains wanting to capitalize on chaos, which I hope to Grenth ANet does not go with).


There was more I wanted to comment, but Gmr Leon got everything else.

oh i dunno maybe he meant this outlet from cantha to the shiverpeaks. although i don't know for sure if it was completely caved in during the run from the destroyers, but if one exists, why can't there be others?

i find all of this quite interesting but i highly doubt one of our own allies aka Livia would have anything to do with this.

Personally, I think the tunnel under Kaineng and Istan were just for game mechanic purposes. Also, they do not directly link to the Shiverpeaks, notice you go through a Asura Gate (and the Dwarves and Vekk came there via Asura Gate), and the gate was destroyed in Boreal so no way back even if the tunnel was not collapsed completely.

Wasn't that the only thing provided by the stranger though? I thought the stranger provided some weird power cores for them, and Zinn was the one who did the actual golemancing.

Not that I agree with the Livia theory, just wondering. I think the fact that the stranger is a 'he' sort of discounts it, unless she was acting through an unknown agent for some reason.

The fact that the stones have something trapped inside them just makes me think of deamons. I know it's really been mentioned in GW lore yet, but Anet tends to take things from pop-culture and a buzzing stone with something trying to get out made me think of those clockwork bugs in Northern lights.

Whoever it was, and i think a new character, bound deamons inside the stones to make sure the golems were under his control.

The Movement of the World is still an in-universe text - what it states is what the historians of Tyria believe. It may not necassarily be completely accurate... and even then, it lists the belief that returning Rurik's sword would put the spirits to rest as a rumour.

Now, we know these rumours turn out to be true nine times out of ten, but there could be other explanations - for instance, the return of the sword could be seen as the proof that Ascalon really has returned rather than simply being the Charr dressing up slaves as Ascalonians and forcing them into the city (which is something I'm willing to bet they've tried... or they're going to try... tenses are confusing on this subject.)

Humans are currently the strongest, especially if whoever's doing the planning knows that Abaddon and the Great Destroyer were taken down by humans.

What's more, technically there were probably Elonian and Canthan heroes at the Ring of Fire. This does interesting things to causality (for the Elonians at least) but it might be reasonable to imagine that the buildup to attack Gandara might have taken the time between Nightfall and the earlier instalments.

Even before that, there are CERTAINLY going to have been Elonian heroes who've completed the Naveed chain, and thus got Lazarus annoyed at them for that if not for any involvement with the opening of the Door of Komalie.

Strike the Dredge from that list - plenty are hostile enough in Echovald Forest.

The power crystal is all that the stranger provided, this is true. But I was making that point in hopes of correcting Hugh Manatee in his theory. I wouldn't mind his theory as much if he just looked more into it and had a little better grammar (and split his paragraphs more often).

If there is something in the power stone given for R.O.X. (notice that there is nothing to say that P.O.X.'s and N.O.X.'s power stones were the same as R.O.X.'s), it would lead more to the Mursaat. This is because of everyone we know of, they are the only ones who are proven to be able to put souls/aspects into stones/other beings (evidence via Bloodstones/Battery Charge and the Lazarus chain in EN).

Technically, lore wise, the Ring of Fire incident happened prior to Factions (iirc, Cantha was "barred off" with trade because of the plague until Factions came out). And Elonians could not have been on the Ring of Fire because the Titans being unleashed happened 3 years prior. Cantha and Elona came to LA for help, but not the other way.

The only evidence of Elonians in Tyria are 1. When burying monarchs in the Tombs of the Primeval Kings/Pilgrimage, 2. When the Tombs of the Primeval Kings became corrupted (which, lore wise, would have happened during the time of Factions or just before), and 3. when Kormir went in search of heroes. Before Kormir, Elonians never went north or west of the Crystal Desert

As for your quest chain, the only heroes that could "annoy" Lazarus personally would be the heroes. Zho, Lo Sha, and Talon are the only Canthans (which would raise his ire against Tengu as well as humans), and then there is Herta (funny how she is the only elonian henchmen in EN).

Plenty of common time things to go on for Lazarus to know of Cantha, but not so much with Elona. Best thing to assume would be that the Mursaat knew of Cantha and Elona before their rule as the Unseen Ones.

Those Dredge are not widescale enough to hate Elonan or Tyrian humans. They would only (and only a fraction of them) hate the Kurzicks. The assassination attempts goes far too out of place to have them considered.

Also, hostile =/= revenge.

Actually, Mhenlo does show up to ask for help in both cases. Regarding Factions and Prophecies, I think they were trying to make the exact order ambiguous - you could interpret it as either happening before the other. Certainly, the bridging quest Chaos in Kryta makes no implication that things are happening in the past - unless you actually do backtrack towards Ascalon. Or, on the Canthan side, Shing Jea.

The same applies to the Nightfall-Prophecies bridging quest Terror in Tyria - even though we know that Prophecies is before Nightfall, there is no indication that going to help Tyria - or Cantha, for that matter - involves going into the past. Hence my suggestion that the Istan part may in fact occur three years before the attack on Gandara, with the Sunspears going to assist in other parts of the world while Kormir gathers forces to attack Gandara.

Actually, I was thinking of the PCs...

If you ignore the quests "Chaos in Kryta" and "Terror in Tyria", where Mhenlo asks for help in Kaineng Center and Kamadan.

"Terror in Tyria" is certainly anachronistic, since Mhenlo asking for Elonian help against the undead in Kryta is three years too late. It just doesnt fit the lore, being a matter of game mechanics needed to tie the campaigns together.

But the events in Cantha seem to be more-or-less contemporaneous with the happenings in Prophecies. The Canthan heroes were in training on Shing Jea during the time that the Ascalonian heroes were fighting the Charr and making the trek across the Shiverpeaks. One could assume that there was a lull after the refugees arrived at LA, during which Mhenlo got the letter from Togo and went to Cantha, followed by another letter from LA calling him back as the threat of the undead grew.

Edit: I like draxynnic's explanation better. The events in Istan, starting a bit before "The Time is Nigh", being approximately contemporaneous with Kaineng City and LA. In that case, Shing Jea training, the trek from Ascalon, and the early Istan missions are all in the past as far as non-native chars are concerned.

However, both Prophecies and Factions have clearly been over for some time at the time you go to recruit Olias and Zenmai.

One of Cynns quotes makes it sound like Factions took place immediatly after Prophecies - perhaps while the events on the Ring of Fire Island chain were happening,the new students were training on Shing Jea, finding out about the plague around the time the Lich was destroyed.

Because of the way the stand alone campaigns work, its hard to place everything in order however i would assume the events at Gandara took place immediatly after Istan, due to the murder of Kayhet. Varesh would not let that slide for three years since it leads to both provinces being on the brink of war.

Etherway both Shiros Plague and Nightfall are over by the time Eye of the North starts and there was no doubt news being carried around about Kormirs ascension, Abaddons defeat and the victory over the plague.

All it takes is whispers being carried around Tyria, for any surviving Mursaat to learn about the other continents. I'd go with the Mursaat knowing about the other continents already - both Cantha and Elona have been around since the beginning, and there as been interaction between them long before the events of Prophecies. We still dont really know where the Mursaat came from so its not a stretch to think they know quite alot about the world, Tyria.

I think that Chaos in Kryta was put there for linking the two games together for a game mechanic purpose. Terror in Tyria only mentions about undead hordes being the threat, and it is proven that the Undead are a threat even after Prophecies. So the threat from that quest is just the undead hordes in a lore perspective, but the whole storyline from a game mechanic perspective.

There are a few quests (mainly just the transfering quests) that cannot be taken for granted. You see no Factions NPCs in Elona (other then Zenmai and one NPC who gives the quest to head to KC from Kamadan), so the Factions to Nightfall quest cannot be considered as actual lore immediately. Also, the quests of heading from Elona to Tyria/Cantha cannot be taken as lore because the only threats would be what remains of the undead (most seem to be underground after Prophecies) and what remains of the plague/Jade Brotherhood/Shiro'ken/Am Fah (Shiro'ken are not much of a problem as they would be reduced after Raisu Palace mission and Shiro cannot make more, afflicted would still be made via Am Fah, so the plague would still ravage for a while).

Cantha to Tyria is debatable, because the quests make it seem like they happen at the same time, but that is unknown (all that is known is that Prophecies ends at the end of the Season of the Scion, and that faction characters are told by glint that a problem is arising in Cantha (after completion of Hell's Pricipice).

I think, that how the Prophecies/Factions storyline goes is the events of Shing Jea Island happens at the same time of at least the Ring of Fire missions, but probably (as those missions would only be in a one day span, I assume, and the shing jea island missions/quests were probably a week) it is more accurate to say Escape from Sanctum Cay=Enrollment of 5 new students (Kisai, Mai, Lukas, Taya Yijo).

From a lore perspective, you must remember, everything the players do, would be replaced by Devona and co. No matter what campaign they are from (only exclusion would be the things before the arrival of Tyrian characters in the other games, which would be replaced by the henchmen). So, if you look at the Lazarus quest chain from a lore perspective, only the henchmen there would be there.

@ BrettM, just look above for my response, as it would be the same.

Said the same thing before I even read your post. Heh.

There is plenty of time between Factions and Nightfall for the pre-Tyrians to just be resting (or killing Urgoz/Kanaxai, although, lore wise, that was probably done to help gain trust of the Kurzicks/Luxons).

Gotta agree, especially on that last part. We know Mursaat live(d) in the Tarnished Coast/Maguuma Jungle, but nothing says thats where they originated from. And that leads to the possibility of more Mursaat in an unknown land, that was never threatened by the Titans (as they were only released on Tyria), and Nightfall probably didn't happen fast enough for some areas to get affected.

We don't even know how long/far the Maguuma Jungle goes to the west, let alone the land.

She didn't. She banished the Sunspears from Kourna - and since the Sunspears aren't technically under Istani control, she can't technically blame Istan for what she did (and Istan also has the stronger fleet - even after the fleet was worse than decimated after Gandara, Istan was still able to defend its borders). It seems at least reasonable to think that it's possible there was three years of buildup (on both sides - Varesh towards setting up the ritual) before the attack on Gandara.

I STRONGLY disagree on this one. When it comes to GW2 lore, it's easy enough to say "A group of heroes..." or even "A group of heroes from Ascalon, Cantha and Elona..." - over two and a half centuries, it's fair to say that the names have been lost. They could even have Devona & co, but mention that they were helped by other heroes from Ascalon, Cantha and Elona whose names have been lost to history.

While as far as GW is concerned... the stuff we did, we did. Yes, there's the usual weirdness about how millions of people have done the thing that was done by a party of 8, but as far as storyline is concerned, if you did something, you did it.

Either way, rationalising the Mursaat not knowing about Cantha and Elona, especially with regards to the Lazarus quest chain, doesn't work. I'll admit there is a certain amount of justification of things that ANet probably didn't consider in the Istan-happened-three-years-ago theory, but the fact remains that I'm willing to bet that the majority of parties doing the Lazarus chain had Canthans and Elonians in the party, whether as henchmen (Herta may be just one, but she's a popular one), heroes, or PCs. And since this is in the original Guild Wars, it's still our characters that have done these things - even if they will, Devona and co haven't taken our place yet.

I give it a month or two at most. Not a whole three years.

They can do that, however, the original lore, short stories, all have Devona and co. doing what our characters have done. Therefore, I take it that the lore perspective, at least the primary quests and missions, are done by Devona and co. (assisted by the henchmen in the area, aka "local heroes"). The side quests can be claimed to have been done by a mixture, some by Devona and co. some by local heroes (most in NF were probably by other sunspears).

However, the GW2 accounts that are linked to GW1 will probably say <GW1 character name> did this and that. Instead of Devona and co. (although I'd prefer if it went with Devona).

And if you ever plan to play the "what about the splitting story-lines in Factions and Nightfall" I'll just go and explain that now.

In Factions, the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest have different heroes, those heroes accompany Mhenlo/Togo and replace our characters (so Devona and co. never went to the luxon side).

In Nightfall, the henchmen may be the same (bad move imo, but was probably done for simplicity), but the hero quotes are different. Some talk about Margrid's missions, others talk about Jurah's missions. That shows which heroes go to which path (which henchmen go where, idk).

That is simple game mechanics, not lore. Different things therefore that argument is irrelevant.

Those stories were written before the game was even released. They seem more of a taster and a setting-of-the-environment rather than being an indication that ANet planned for the 'official' lore to be for it all to be done by them. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if, at the time those were written, they were intended as PC standins - at least a couple of those were written before henchmen were even available. It's also worth noting that they aren't on the main site any more... could just be that they've been moved to the wiki, but it could also be an indication that they're not canon as much as they may have been.

Also, I'd point out at this time that the Lazarus line are side-quests.

I know they were, however, I am sure they knew it was going to be an RPG, with your own character creation. So I think it's highly plausible that Devona and Co. were meant to be the "chosen heroes from Ascalon," from a lore perspective at least.

I know that. Never said it wasn't. That just means that Devona and co. might not have been the ones to do it, but probably the other henchmen/heroes around there.

Of course, there are probably some side-quests could be done by no extra help (this includes the Lazarus chain), that the NPCs in the quest were able to handle themselves/fight for themselves (or it was nearby guards), and not heroes, henchmen, or our own characters.

In my personal opinion, our characters should be taken out of all lore perspective other then "participating observers" that takes no credit.

Only the heroes and henchmen (and other NPCs), as far as I can note, can be taken as the ones to do the quests and missions (as they are stick with the campaign till the end *with a few Prophecies exceptions*).

The most our actual characters would be doing would simply be the "random adventurer looking to hunt/help people/explore/whatever can be done by not doing quests and missions."

That is, of course, my personal opinion on how the lore should be looked at.

We could just ask Linsey or someone else to clarify this. But where's the fun in that.

The short stories were released over small periods of time after the game was released (i believe the last one was just before Sorrows Furnace) and they are on the main site still (they appear to be under the world section since the lore area was redone with the revamp). However they used Devona and Co instead of putting in random new characters.

In GW2 i highly doubt the heroes places would be filled by Devonas group. It will most likely go off what Draxynnic said - using descriptions like "A group of heroes" and "Your descendants". The game is going to be based on some of these new heroes being descendants of the ones who saved Tyria, so replacing them with Devonas group really wouldnt make sense.

So yes Lazarus would of met some Canthan and Elonian heroes since Eye of the North sends heroes from all three continents off to investigate.

First, it would be "Your Ancestors" not descendants. And second, it is quite easy to make characters descendants from one or more of Devona's group. Any one of them can easily settle down and get married, and have kids (didn't they all say in The Epilogue, that they think it's time to not be heroes anymore?), especially Cynn and Mhenlo, since it's clear they are in a relationship already.

And, game-wise, for GW2 it will probably say the name of a GW1 account it is linked to, and those that are not, will either say Devona and co. or a group of heroes. And, for all we know, it for unlinked accounts, they might not even be descendants of any heroes. That could just be done to justify putting the HoM in and linking the two accounts together.

We won't truly know how it will be done until GW2 comes out (or the books, if they mention what happens in the game as a prelude/background). Until then, it's personal opinion and speculation.

Yes i did indeed mean Ancestors.

The reason they used Devonas group in those stories was because they focused on the actual characters aswell as the events happening. Devonas group were the only characters who moved through the plot with you so they were the ones they used (rather than making up random new characters who have no place in the plot, why not use the ones that actually exist?)

This does not mean all the things done by the heroes (PC) is attributed to Devonas group/the henchmen around at the time. Also i dont understand your point on unlinked accounts being put down as ancestors of Devona, Mhenlo ect - if theres no account to link to, theres no ancestors and no ancestors means no HoM.

And of ofcourse the HoM would directly refer to your character, name and all. I was talking about the stories - "those legendary heroes who fought Abaddon", "the time the group of heroes stopped The Great Destroyer and saved Tyria". Parts of history that would refer to the heroes as a group of adventurers who defended Tyria. Those who played GW1 would know who those heroes were their own characters while people who didnt play GW1 would think they are just historical figures.

Anyway to try and keep this on topic - there is a point where a rather important and proud Elonian (meaning someone who would launch into introducing Elona if asked) interacts with the White Mantle. Kormir, at one point in her travels with the Zaishen, met Olias who was part of the White Mantle. Considering she met him, it wouldnt be absurd to assume that she also met other White Mantle fighters. Of course by the time she meets them the Mursaat have been exposed. But this could be a way for the Mursaat to learn about the Sunspears and of course Elona.

My point comes from Odgen's line in Odgen's Benediction "the children of legends." And with all talk for GW2 being "your ancestors" that would make it seem like there would be an ancestor connection even without linking accounts.

That is a good point to bring up. So it is nigh undeniable that Lazarus knows about Elona, so he would set out to remove their leaders. It's not surprising they would know of Cantha through all the interaction that happened recently (including closing off trade due to a plague, then re-opening trade).

Actually, it never specifically states that the Mursaat come from the Maguuma. In the story about Saul, it simply describes him as being taken out blindfolded deep into a thick forest and left to survive on his own. Which is, of course, where he found the Mursaat city, they brought him back to health, etc. etc.

Actually finding out what was intended?

Anyway, it sounds like we have a philosophical disagreement - you think things should be officially done by named characters (ergo, NPCs), I think they should leave the people who did it unnamed and let individual players continue to consider that it was their characters that did it. I'd even go so far as to say that it seems a little unfair to have gone through all the story only to be told "actually, the NPCs did it all. You know, those monks that don't bring condition or hex removal and that ranger with no interrupts? Those guys whose builds are so horribly bad that some missions are virtually impossible to hench? Them? They did everything. Alone."

At least a couple were in mid alpha - I remember reading them when they first went up back in 2004. The use of the old name for Ascalon City (Khylo) is a dead giveaway.

I thought it was specified it was the Maguuma, actually. Could be the forests north of Kryta if it wasn't, though.

Just a thought, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but...

What if the Mysterious Stranger is Saul D'alessio?

My reasoning is that after he and the 3 (Habbion, etc.) went to the hidden city of the mursaat, the 3 were sent back to Kryta to spread the new religion, but Saul stayed behind. What happened to him isn't known.

If he wasn't immediately killed on a bloodstone, he may have served the mursaat as a direct mursaat agent. He did after all have a strong magical aptitude which the mursaat realised, and he seemed loyal enough.

As the Mysterious Stranger quest line happens after the Prophesies campaign, you would assume that by now the mursaat around the Krytan areas have virtually been wiped clean with the knowledge of infused armour now available. However, if after the events at the Door of Kormalie some mursaat fled back to the hidden city (Janthir is it?), the mursaat city would have learned of the humans all over the world putting an end to their control over the continent.

At this point Canthan and Elonian heroes would have participated in the events, and the mursaat would almost certainly know of their existence (Kormir traveled to Lion's Arch at one point also). From this we can infer that the mursaat not only had it out for the humans of Tyria, but that of Cantha and Elona.

Saul would have had a few years to become corrupted/enlightened by the mursaats, and - either through loyalty or fear of punishment should he disobey - has been serving the mursaat for the same amount of time.

The rammifications of the assassinations would have thrown the humans all over the world into chaos, and this would provide an opportunity for the mursaat to take back lost ground.

Saul is human, so he wouldn't be too out-of-place traveling to Zimm's Lair through human territory (depending on if he ran into any White Mantle, however he could have changed appearance, or I'm not sure that his appearance is common knowledge) of the Maguuma Jungle. As a magically apt human, he shouldnt have too much trouble getting past the wildlife.

Ugh... I'm going to stop now. Any thoughts?

Actually he was taken by the Mursaat after the battle with the Charr - the only time we hear of him going to the Hidden City is when he first met the Mursaat. He didnt stay behind willingly, he was taken by the Mursaat off to some unknown fate - but judgeing by the look on his face it wasnt to be a nice fate.

Referencing a theory on what happened to Saul I read somewhere else, perhaps the mursaat ascended Saul to mursaat form unwillingly, or possessed his body with that of a mursaat. He might have made a powerful lackey given his magical abilities.

Another thought is that Zinn's lair is just about as west as you can get, and the hidden mursaat city is either further west or north...

I think it more likely that he was killed on the bloodstone rather than given greater powers. He was a tool to the Mursaat and they went as far as to give this tool their most powerful ability - so its only natural that the tool should be discarded afterward, but they needed the other White Mantle to further their plans, hence why they took him off rather than killing him infront of his followers.

Theres also the fact that the Mursaat are pretty much wiped out with Lazarus being one of the last. Where would Saul fit in then? and what motive would he have to attack the 3 most prominent Human areas in the world of Tyria?

Oh and we dont know where the Hidden City really is. Most things point to Rata Sum but in actual fact we're never told which Jungle/Forest its in.

Saul's motives would be to weaken human resistance so that the remaining mursaat (however few there may be) can strike back, if for vengance or for a more strategical reason. If for whatever reason he survived this long in mursaat hands, he would be under the impression that the unseen gods are very very powerful, and he may believe that them ruling over Tyria is better than human rule. Greater good-type scenario.

Or he could have been possessed or ascended

On a different note it could be any of the mursaat, for their reasons would be much the same

I don't think Saul would have been given greater powers, as Free Runner said, he was given their greatest ability, and after the Mursaat killed off most of the White Mantle that saw them, Saul was struck with fear.

Instead of following the Mursaat anymore, Saul would strike against them, which is why they took him away.

The fact that Saul realized that he put the people of Kryta into worse rulers then the threat of the Charr (As said in the book, traded one set of chains for another, I believe), disregards your through that "he may believe that them ruling over Tyria is better then human rule."

Ascended has nothing to do with following the Mursaat or the Mursaat keeping him alive (In fact, if he was somehow ascended, which btw would mean he went to the Crystal Desert and there is no evidence of that, he would have become a greater threat by possibly taking part in the Flameseeker Prophecies *that is, releasing the Mursaat's demise*).

Possessed, possible but unlikely, there is nothing to support possession by the Mursaat, just manipulation and Lazarus splitting his essence into other beings.


I stand by either Dhuum/Menzies (Their reason would be revenge for killing most of their forces in FoW/UW/Tombs/Dragon Festival/RoT and another attempt to prevent human interfering when they attack Grenth/Balthazar again) or Lazarus and whatever few remaining Mursaat there are.

Only liable candidates imo.

When i said ascended, I meant "evolved" from human form to that of a mursaat, and i suppose that rather than Saul, my theory was more encompassing that of all of the mursaat over that of Saul specifically.

I do believe that there is something to the location of Zinn's lair being at the western-most point of the Maguuma Jungle, and Tyria. I believe that the hidden city is said to be somewhere in "the jungle", and maguuma being the jungle of tyria (at least from what we've seen) it is more reason that it serve the mursaat as a point to strike back from.

I think we should leave out Zinn's Lair, because it said that Zinn relocated after he got freed, with directions to his new lab with M.O.X. (probably given remotely or when we visit the Vision of Zinn in the book mission).

Actually thats the thing - its never said to be in a Jungle. Infact its not mentioned where it is. All thats said is Saul was driven out to a forest that was at least 3 weeks away from Kryta, and while moving through the forest he eventually came across the city. This forest could be North for all we know. The only indication we are given for the Magumma to be the location of the Hidden City is the mysterious mist that shrouds the Ullen River.

Its never said that he relocated. He also never builds directions into M.O.X. - There would be no point in him giving you a clue to where it is if the Golem knew it already.

I'm going to say it was Zinn himself, and MOX was his final creation he was using to test to see if it was good enough to be owned by the only people in the world that could challenge him...US. I think that MOX is a mole assassin, allied with/owned by the most trusted, well known heroes in history, the heroes that saved the world 4 times. Who better to play the mole than us? We're pretty much allowed access to the inner sanctum of every noble in the world, we're trusted above all. It would be a good way to discredit our names. What if that's the problem with our descendants in GW2...having to live with the knowledge that their ancestors were traitors to their lands by killing off their leaders in cold blood(actually MOX that did this, but we were framed). That might be their quest, to redeem their names. MOX probably shows up as a recurring enemy in GW2 after we find out exactly what happens.

NOX, POX, and ROX were merely powerful tests as well as mechanisms to allow the leaders to trust MOX because he fights along side us to defeat them.

Zinn is an asura. Zinn is also VERY egotistical, a common trait among popular villains. Asurans feel superior to humans. Maybe Zinn got jealous that we heroes were gaining popularity among the Asuran race and he wasn't being given credit for his "genius". Egotistical genius hiding out in his own secret lair pushing the buttons and manipulating the naiive bookahs to his own devices. Sounds like classic game villain to me.

Nail on the head? Was it posted already in the thread? I didn't read the whole thing.

A11Eur0, that thought has been posted, in this thread and the one over on GWO. At least to a degree (they said it was Zinn, but didn't go as far as saying M.O.X. will kill the nobles after).

The problem against this theory, is that he is egotistical, he cares too much about his reputation.

Also, as you said, the heroes saved the world 4 times, people would give us a chance to kill M.O.X. and bring Zinn in if what you said was true.

And, if Zinn cares about his reputation so much, I don't see why he would risk making M.O.X. the true assassin, just blame it all on that mysterious stranger who forced him to make P.O.X. and N.O.X. *as R.O.X. wasn't a forced creation*.

I think there are only three possibilities, those are:

1. Lazarus
2. Dhuum/Menzies
3. Zinn

I personally hope for Dhuum/Menzies -especially if the quest chain is followed to the point of us killing the Mysterious Stranger- and I highly disagree with the Zinn theory, but there isn't enough to disprove it.