A word of warning to Logitech G15 users.

Yup, don't bot. I'm one of the people that stand in Lutgardis when im bored and report 99% of the people that walk past me. Tis fun.

Actually its the peoples choice to do that one quest over and over again. Many people have got the title from AB - yet again, the title is not a requirement of playing the game, its a choice a person can do or not - if you seriously cannot play the game without one pve skill, then you have more worries than doing a repeatable quest.

remember also, this quest was never designed to be done with heroes anyway - it was only the later chapter addition of them that made this choice available.

Not true. ANet will have bots continually checking player behavior, looking for statistical patterns indicating a bot, and then flags the account as suspicious for a GM to have a look at.

You wish.
You greatly underestimate the amount of information available to a GM. Simple, repetitive, microsecond-accurate, scripts like those created by a G15 will quickly be tripping alarms all over the place, then it's up to the discretion of he GM how to deal with it.

It would be interesting from the point that they had refused to give any substance to back up their decision of misuse. Of course though, we only have the OP's side of the this without details of how many runs/time involved etc along with a somewhat confusing explanation of what the macro was actually doing (I dont buy the joining with a 2nd account thing - sorry, you only do that once).

Hard to know where the line is drawn, how much of a short cut is too much, for example;

I have been wanting to set up a macro on my G-15 that would synchronize casts between my self and heroes with one keyboard press i.e cast spell in my slot #1 followed by spell #1 in each hero slot, something like Incendiary Bonds (my slot #1) followed by casts of Searing Flames by each hero.

That would make for some kick butt Vanquishing and it is nothing you can't already do with micromanaging hero skill bars only faster and more efficient.

However is that too much? Are you stepping over the line in to banable territory doing this? Its hard to tell which is why I have never done it.

Actually, no. While it may seem that way, it will not hold before a court of law, at least not where I live. For starters, it's in English, not in my native language. Secondly it's presented after the sale, while it should be presented before the sale, printed on paper. It's simple, nothing in the presented 'Eula' (which I believe isn't even printable) has any legal validity, including their so called 'right' to end the service agreement at their will.

Not that for the amount at stake after 3 years there ever would be a trial. ANet knows that as well as and simply takes the chance.

1st: regarding the second account: i merely used it to target and run out the zone. never did i have the second accept the invititation, merely to follow. once i reached my target, the macro would then zone me so i could start the run.

2nd: i did this all weekend. i have been waiting for a double faction donation weekend since the last one was released about a year ago. At the time, I was rank 8 i beleive. So no, I did not grind this up to use pve skills.

3rd: i had 26 (with only 300 minutes or so from drunkard, which would have made 27) titles maxed on my account.

I spoke with Gaile in regards to this, so hopefully something will come out of this. Regardless of the decision, I will not gloat, IF (and a very, very strong if) i get my account back, or if the action stays as is. This, again, was not a thread about me, but whether or not the G15 macro is legal or not. Hopefully after this is all said and done, there will be some type of modification to the EULA stating whether or not any macros (be it hardware or software) be used. The line is iffy, as someone stated in a previous post, and it needs clarification.

In the mean time let us not waste our precious minutes!

1,2,3 heroes run
4,5,6 here we go again
1,2,3

keep going ppl!!!! we've got KEYS to press and that's exactly what ANet want's ya to do! No key press automation for ya you gotta move those fingers!

1,2,3
4,5,6
7,8,9
1,2,3
4,5,6
7,8,9
1,2,3
......

Read it all here:
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Kurzick_HFFF#Speed_Optimized_Variants_.28guide_to _faster_running.29

IT'S SO FUN!

It's just the coordinates to a point on the screen that i used as a proof of concept to prove that the G15 can do it. It simply moves your mouse pointer to somewhere in the top left quarter of the screen and clicks the mouse. The top left corner is 0x0 but coordinates are a funny thing on the G15, it depends on how many monitors you have and how you word the mousemove event etc.

not necessarily true, you can download the client for free, or once boughtand once installed, it asks you to read he eula before proceeding with the game. it's legally binding and the courts wouldn't waste their time with issues such as this. every PC software created has a EULA of sorts. lets look at the letters EULA- Electronic User Licensing Agreement. - which means it's not on paper, but rather embedded in the software. You don't click the eula, you can't use the software.

1st: I misunderstood - thought you used the macro once youd got to your other char to target the exit then zone - not to do /invite char then move to exit after.

2nd: So 60 hours then? wow at waiting a year. Maybe doing 10k a week wouldnt have been such a chore.

3rd: and I have 32, whats that got to do with the price of fish? That you were working on GwaMM? then you know whats involved.

Gaile is the one person that may help you. I think with all the G15s (and similar) out there these days, that anet have good methods to identify between different types of automation.
I am not sure they just rely on reporting of Bots in town though, or I know some districts of Lut would have been emptied.

If you disagree with the agreement though, you cannot get your $ back - if I was a lawyer it would be an interesting part of contract law for me -but Im not, so it isnt :P

Its where the point of the contract is - on the exchange of money for the software or not - wow, that takes me back a long way >.<

And how are you able to tell the difference between a HFFF bot and a HFFF player? They both do the EXACT same thing (especially in town).
Like I said, it's a poor design when you can't even tell the difference between a bot and a player.

Edit: Yes, EULA's are legally binding, no matter what country you live in/language it is written in since thier terms are not unconcionable. Courts would apply California law since that is where a.net's primary place of buisness is (I assume it's also incorporated in Deleware).

Really? I thought they were in Washington State.

well, the money is your problem, as a good BBB says, buyer beware

ouch sorry to hear that OP. hope u get it resolved.

These EULAs have never held up in court. But the amount if times people challenge them is so remarkably low and the losses form losing are so low it doesn't matter.

And IF NC Soft is located or Incorporated in Washington. Then this EULA Falls under the Consumer Protection Act, and a recent ruling that a company (in this case AT & T) can not proclaim itself the Sole arbitrator of Violations of this Agreement.

This ruling further dictated that since in order to use what the consumer had purchased he was forced into accepting a one sided agreement similar to what NC Soft did when they Updated the EULA and you Had to hit Accept again.

Did they offer a refund if you hit the reject button? NO

Tell that to Blizzard.

WoW has bever been challanged.

Diablo II has and that game had single player capabilities and u never ahd to Purchase and online key.


All other court cases related to blizzard have been over Copyright infringment.

It's stupid that you think having an automated method of inviting someone, running to them and running out the zone for you wouldn't be considered a bot. That is how anyone sitting in town can tell if your using a bot.

A.net would not be able to tell if you constantly click the sign post and then just hit w and walk forward past it. Because bots do that all the time. Even when I do plain hfff without any form of macro. I never get lazy and click the signpost/ do it that way. I always run to the place and zig zag with the strafe keys a few times. So that I can never get mistaken for a bot.

A.net can only figure out if your a bot by basically seeing your pattern in town. Anybody can hit 123 456 789 after flagging the heroes. So they don't pay too much attention to the actual hfff. Real people generally will walk with the wasd keys in town and not click on the signpost. Bots have to click the signpost/ invite someone close to zone and then run out.

So, don't be lazy/ clicking signposts or inviting people's names in town then walking forward. Walk normally and I can bet 80% or more that you won't get mistaken as a bot again. The fact that you can zone without being at keyboard makes it automated= a bot.

Blizzard mainly used the argument that MDY violated copyright infringement but they also stated it violated WOW’s EULA (3rd party addons).

yes but that was a Copyright case at the end. Saying that the dude trying to sell bots for WoW was breaking copyright law by stealing information stored in memory at the time that is normally stored on WoW Servers and they won, not a Player Sueing over his accnt being banned or closed.

Jep!

Do they even play the games they are "supporting"?

What frustrates me the most is that they most likely don´t even read what you have written. Do they get into serious trouble when they have to revoke a ban and that is why they are so adamant it was justified??

BTW this is the reason I will never report anyone for botting. I am not going to be the excuse to ban someone, who didn´t do anything wrong.

I agree with the above the only one responsible for the ban was the person using macros and more than likely 3rd party software which the eula clearly states you cannot use. Nobody should be able to use any other resources unless everyone uses those resources. Cheating the system should be stopped. You should be sitting at the keyboard and pressing every key and doing everything required to advance both in level and in titles. So, good for Anet banning these people teach them a lesson play the game the way it is meant to be played and quit trying to cut corners.

That is very much a question of opinion and location. Last I checked the situation wrt EULAs was confused, and companies studiously avoid appealing to EULAs in court in order to avoid having the situation become any clearer. Even in the US, EULAs have been struck down at least as often as they have been enforced, and the situation is clear as muck.

More to the point, the EULA is irrelevant. ArenaNet owns the server, and have the right to restrict access to their servers in any way they see fit, without even having to give any reason.

Agreed.

I learned something from this thread: reply to random whispers while farming, even if you're not in the mood to talk, because it might be a GM or someone from the botpatrol testing to see if you're a bot.

kula, even replies can be automated,

"hi"
"just doing hfff"
"leave me the ***** alone"
"STFU"
those replies can be clearly randomized and automated.

You couldn't bot those commands to be typed when you receive a whisper though. I don't believe it could be anyway.

Best way to be proven your not a bot is to just never use the same routes as bots in towns. Walk with wasd don't click on signs or invite someone standing by zone for you.

hmm
if i stand by the zone, will i get invited, then i get accepted and i get a free hff run? :P
hmm nice thought

I meant engaging in conversation not responding with one-liners.

I should've been more specific, my bad.

Most likely.

Sorry to hear this and I have a G15 i use for events and such like mad king says cause i
can't type fast guess i should not use it just in case i get a ban.

Hope the Community Manager pops in here

Dear Arena Net,
Like the OP I have a Logitech G15 Keyboard and I would like to know, once and for all, what is 'legal" and what is not so that I do not accidentally get my account banned.
Thank you.

Well first the G11 and the G15 can do mouse events. Just run macro manager, right-click inside the events box, and select the mouse button to insert. However the G-15 only can display the x-y co-ordinates, since it has the LCD screen.

Next the macro-manger function is disallowed in most NCSOFT games they are programed so this won't work. Keystroke macros are defined as ones that were created using the "Assign Keystroke" option from the pop-up menu on the G Key these are allowed. Now Anet was not always a part of NCSOFT and could have not had the anti-macro-manger programming which got the OP into this mess.

If you have to question whether it is safe or not to use, you should not do it at all. Better to be safe then sorry. I honestly think the OP is leaving something out, like most people who get banned do. Seeing all of the ArenaNet trolling in this thread just shows he got what he wanted.

Not at all, I bought the game in the store. My countries law dictates that the terms of any agreement be made known before the sale or else a standard agreement applies. How hard is this to comprehend, ANet Eula is not valid before the law.

What every software attempts to do is irrelevant, PC software makers can not make laws, not directly, not indirectly.


Lol, you're trying to argument laws while you don't even know what 'eula' stands for? These letters mean 'End User License Agreement'.
No matter what the name, law requires that the terms of the agreement are presented beforehand.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/legal/default.php

You can read that without ever buying the game. The information's readily available to you if you know where to look.

You really underestimate the ability of some people to grind. When I was doing HFFF, I set the period (.) key to "Target: Next." Upon entering town, I would hit it twice. No matter where you load in Lutgardis, that will target the Melandru's Hope sign. Not to mention, it shaves off at least a few seconds because I can register those actions before I'm even completely loaded. Once I got there, or relatively close, I would turn my camera and press R.

I have my hero flags keyed to F5-8. That way I don't have to drag them from the radar to my Mission Map, I can just hover my mouse over the spot they need to be placed, and it's almost instantaneous. Once you get that part down, it goes really quickly. And then I have on my number pad something like this:

123: Hero 1 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill
456: Hero 2 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill
789: Hero 3 - Shadow Form - Run Skill - Run Skill

Doing that entire process shaves off about 30 seconds each run - so don't call people lazy. You should be at least recognizing their effort to maximize their time spent doing this. If you would rather take that much longer doing a Faction title, you're the one who deserves to be laughed at .

--------------------------------

Actually, technicalities of language aside, I believe the person you were arguing with is correct. The basic premise of your screenshot is that it's a "click-and-drag" dummie version of what really is a script.

In AutoIt, all that would have to be typed is:
In essence, the G15 "built in mouse function" is a script-generator for people who don't have the know-how to type out the whole thing. To my understanding, that would mean you could generate an entire afk-process with the G15 keyboard... at least for the duration of one run.

A comparable example would be website designing. Any person can open up a program like Dreamweaver or Microsoft FrontPage and build a website using drawing tools, paint cans and other functions that just look like you're using MS Word. You're still generating a website, but what actually powers it, the CODE that creates it... it doesn't need to be known. Instead it's automatically generated.

So someone who selects the text and clicks a blue paintcan is telling the program like Dreamweaver to actually write this:

Just because you can't see the code or script being generated does not mean that it isn't there.

You are missing a crucial point. Every time when you launch the game you use the resources on ANet's servers. You are using their property at ANet's sole discretion. ANet can deny your use of their property for any reason or for no reason whatsoever and they have that right regardless of any EULA. Their property, their rules.

What was originally being said was that there was no built in function to recreate mouse controls with the G15. The G15, however, comes with software that makes this possible. But it's a separate program, unlike the code in the driver that enables the macro learning buttons on the keyboard itself. That's not a material difference though, so saying the G15 doesn't come with the ability to control mouse commands is just plain wrong. Whether those commands are macros or scripts seems kind of pointless to me.

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I wonder if the OP had asked them to review his activities when doing the actual HFFFing if they would have been able to tell he was not using a bot. And if so, why would he use a bot just to get out the door and not for the actual farming itself? That seems like the most likely way he would get his account back.

Since I also have a G15 keyboard, I too would like to know if the macro/script the OP created is against the rules or not. Until now, the standard was thought to be that as long as you still had to be at the keyboard for everything to work, you were ok. This ban seems to say that this is not the case.

I too (as someone else stated) have a macro on my G15 that combines the ; space keyboard presses to make picking up drops easier when I'm killing stuff in the game. Am I going to get in trouble if I use this macro during the next special event with present drops?

What really confuses me is that Anet was using these keyboards as part of their past promotions. You would think they would have been forced to come up with a more concrete definition on what was and was not allowed when using this keyboard.