A Note on Botting and Kurzick/Luxon Titles

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
That is simply not possible. For every 'clear' and 'unambiguous' rule, there are ten ways to crawl around it without touching the line. There must be an ultimate 'whatever we find inappropriate' clause.
No, there should NOT be. That kind of corporate-friendly, customer-hostile crap is what lets them get away with contradicting themselves, permbanning a guy for using the G15 macros interactively (see here) in spite of being told by an ANet official that they were allowed.

If they don't want to say what is allowed and what is not, then let them come out and say "NO MACROS". That is unambiguous, explicit, and leaves no room for "corner cases" or "loopholes."

DreamWind

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde View Post
Um, ArenaNet has right there in their EULA that you can't use 3rd party programs.
Which has been contradicted numerous times in numerous situations with numerous 3rd party programs by numerous Anet officials. Ok I am exagerrating somewhat but there is still evidence there. 3rd party programs of various kinds are still being used with no bans.

I'm just saying the line here is unclear, and banning people for this before the line was drawn was pretty ridiculous. The line still isn't completely drawn though, especially for people who don't keep up on this stuff. The fact that the bans have been reduced to 2 weeks is indication that Anet realizes they screwed up here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inde
I wasn't arguing for or against any point in this thread... I was giving information.
Fair enough.

tmakinen

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
That kind of corporate-friendly, customer-hostile crap is what lets them get away with contradicting themselves
Their property, their rules. You are free not to play.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
No, there should NOT be. That kind of corporate-friendly, customer-hostile crap is what lets them get away with contradicting themselves, permbanning a guy for using the G15 macros interactively (see here) in spite of being told by an ANet official that they were allowed.

If they don't want to say what is allowed and what is not, then let them come out and say "NO MACROS". That is unambiguous, explicit, and leaves no room for "corner cases" or "loopholes."
Due to the nature of software (and hardware too; this also includes "system software" such as the one provided with the G15 which can perform quite a lot of tricks), it is literaly impossible. What about hacked version of the OS or the network libraries that would modify that packets sent to the GW server in order to achieve a certain in-game effect? What about your internet router doing the trick? What about a programmable hardware that you'd add between your network card and the network cable? Are these "macros"?

As tmakinen said, produce a rule and there will be soon dozens of ways to bypass it, by software or simple social engineering. If what you're asking for was possible, the whole field of software engineering would be in a totally different state, meaning that "cheating" would have a clear-cut definition that no one can escape (and lawyers would have a much easier job).

jaximus

jaximus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2008

wisc

would any of this be an issue if fff didnt exist? the ability for people to run that quest so quickly and efficiently to gain faction/money/xp ruins a lot. it provides too much money for the system too quickly and turns a title that takes time and effort to achieve more about who can cheat the system the best. sadly quests/cases like this exist so that bots are even a viable option.

what is the point of botting for a game? you should play it to enjoy it, not for any other reason. people that do this (anyone supporting macros/keyboard/whatever garbage people are doing) are hurting the game for everyone.

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin View Post
Due to the nature of software (and hardware too; this also includes "system software" such as the one provided with the G15 which can perform quite a lot of tricks), it is literaly impossible. What about hacked version of the OS or the network libraries that would modify that packets sent to the GW server in order to achieve a certain in-game effect? What about your internet router doing the trick? What about a programmable hardware that you'd add between your network card and the network cable? Are these "macros"?
I think these fall under the "use of 3rd party programs" in the EULA.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
Their property, their rules. You are free not to play.
Then they're free to refund me my money.

That EULAs have made it possible to sell someone a good, and then unilaterally and capriciously deny them use of it, is a joke. It's like selling someone a car, then the next day coming back and taking the keys because they called your favorite politician a nasty name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frill
Due to the nature of software (and hardware too; this also includes "system software" such as the one provided with the G15 which can perform quite a lot of tricks), it is literaly impossible. What about hacked version of the OS or the network libraries that would modify that packets sent to the GW server in order to achieve a certain in-game effect? What about your internet router doing the trick? What about a programmable hardware that you'd add between your network card and the network cable? Are these "macros"?
They can be if explicitly defined as such. That's the key. Explicit definition. If you say a "macro" is something that performs more than one in-game action per individual keypress, or something that allows in-game actions to be completed without interaction from the player, etc... would cover ALL of those things.

Instead, they give you lazy lawyer boilerplate, and act on whims. Typical corporate crumminess, and I'm not giving them a pass for it.

Kyp Jade

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2006

USA

Lack of Talent [Luck]

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
Then they're free to refund me my money.

That EULAs have made it possible to sell someone a good, and then unilaterally and capriciously deny them use of it, is a joke. It's like selling someone a car, then the next day coming back and taking the keys because they called your favorite politician a nasty name.
Actually, you just basically handed them money, and they said they would agree by a EULA, which is NOT a legal contract. But when you do in the EULA what you agreed you wouldnt do, and then complain when they terminate your service like they said they would, you complain.

And with the car thing, thats a legal contract.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
They can be if explicitly defined as such. That's the key. Explicit definition. If you say a "macro" is something that performs more than one in-game action per individual keypress, or something that allows in-game actions to be completed without interaction from the player, etc... would cover ALL of those things.

Instead, they give you lazy lawyer boilerplate, and act on whims. Typical corporate crumminess, and I'm not giving them a pass for it.
If all you're interested in is a "definition", as in a text of law, then yes it's perfect. But then, you'd have to be versed into computers to know how false this is (i.e., how easily it can be debunked in court), because the thing you mention ("something that performs more than one in-game action per individual keypress, or something that allows in-game actions to be completed without interaction from the player") cannot be attested by the GW client or the GW server in any sort of way at the moment.

I won't start discussing the technicalities of how the GW server can detect "macro-ing", but it's extremely ugly and Anet's announcement shows that it's very far from being exact. And the reason is hidden inside the examples I gave above: from the point of view of the GW client or the GW server, you can't make any difference between a device doing "stuff" for each "keypress" (so physically it's only a "keypress" but no one except the guy standing in front of the device can know that, because the device acts like a keyboard which sends complex signals to the OS, a bit like the G15 whose special buttons send signals to its dedicated software that works very close to the OS, and all that is very difficult to see for the GW client and server), or a proper bot. Both can theoretically be used for convenience (repeating a sequence of key strings) or botting (repeating a complex and repetitive behaviour, potentially with some kind of "intelligence"), the difference being of course in the complexity involved.

You could even completely defeat the purpose of your definition of "macro" by simply taking a bot and asking the botter to regularly interact with the program. A bit like saying that the bot program helps you, instead of letting him do the stuff. (FYI, what pro botters do is try to emulate human behaviours, but it's an arms race with the MMO company)

We even discussed on Guru the extreme case of a player behaving (constant repetitive action) as a bot! Of course, if you look at GW packets, it can't look like a computer, but it shows how useless such a definition would be, unless it has to come to court like the recent case that Blizzard won.

Hell Raiser

Hell Raiser

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

[PHNX]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
Their property, their rules.
This.

I do agree with Anet's decision not to permaban these players. Several Anet employees have said that some certain macros are ok (ie G15). At least now those legitimate players will know not to use them anymore, and the ones who use bots (and will continue to) will get a permaban. I mean, Anet practically invited them to bot with such a grueling amount of time repeating the same thing over and over.

However, in the end, Anet can do whatever they want.

creelie

creelie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Alberta

Charter Vanguard [CV]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
Their property, their rules.
Thirded.

Though I do think a more appropriate punishment would have been setting their accounts' Luxon AND Kurzick faction back to 0. That would be hilarious.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp Jade View Post
Actually, you just basically handed them money, and they said they would agree by a EULA, which is NOT a legal contract. But when you do in the EULA what you agreed you wouldnt do, and then complain when they terminate your service like they said they would, you complain.

And with the car thing, thats a legal contract.
You might have a point if I could refuse the EULA and then get my money back for the software, but the software publishers have decided that they would not credit stores who allow returns of opened software.

They are having their cake and eating it too, and not all of us are programmed to fall in line with the proclamations of the corporate overlords without question.

Hell Raiser

Hell Raiser

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

[PHNX]

Mo/

Put your tinfoil hat back on and get over your "corporate overlords" conspiracy. When you agreed to the EULA you agreed that you payed only for the rights to play the game, and that they could take those rights away at any time. It still belongs to them and they can do whatever they want with it, including deny you access. Don't like it? Don't buy games like GW.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Raiser View Post
Put your tinfoil hat back on and get over your "corporate overlords" conspiracy. When you agreed to the EULA you agreed that you payed only for the rights to play the game, and that they could take those rights away at any time. It still belongs to them and they can do whatever they want with it, including deny you access. Don't like it? Don't buy games like GW.
Cute trying to diminutive the issue with "tinfoil hat" talk. Too bad it's a simple matter of facts.

Oh, you mean when I walked into Gamestop, laid the game on the counter, and gave them my credit card, they gave me a copy of the Eula? See, here in the real world, I didn't get to see it until the game was opened, installed, and run, so my options were to accept the eula or... what, exactly?

Just because someone selling you something says something is true, doesn't mean it is. For ANet to start pulling this crap now is sad. I expected a smaller company to do right by its customers, instead of acting like EA.

fusa

fusa

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
Cute trying to diminutive the issue with "tinfoil hat" talk. Too bad it's a simple matter of facts.

Oh, you mean when I walked into Gamestop, laid the game on the counter, and gave them my credit card, they gave me a copy of the Eula? See, here in the real world, I didn't get to see it until the game was opened, installed, and run, so my options were to accept the eula or... what, exactly?

Just because someone selling you something says something is true, doesn't mean it is. For ANet to start pulling this crap now is sad. I expected a smaller company to do right by its customers, instead of acting like EA.
Getting banned from Guild Wars is pretty much the same as being kicked out of a sporting event, or concert. If you act up, you're kicked out. When you login to their server you are on their property, and they can remove you whenever you want. EULA just lets you know how you should act.

Anet has been banning people for a lot longer than the recent bans, and hopefully will keep it up for the rest of the life of the game. They aren't acting like EA now, they act like every other software company. Even freeware written by one person require a user agree to a user agreement.

DreamWind

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusa View Post
Getting banned from Guild Wars is pretty much the same as being kicked out of a sporting event, or concert. If you act up, you're kicked out. When you login to their server you are on their property, and they can remove you whenever you want. EULA just lets you know how you should act.
I think what Targren is trying to say that everybody keeps missing is that we don't get to see the EULA until we have already paid for the game thus making us HAVE to accept it. We CAN'T deny the EULA even if we read it and think it is ridiculous.

The thing that some people are pissed off about though is that if we go to a sporting event we know that if we run out onto the field we will get thrown out...but in Guild Wars we don't know what the hell is right and wrong anymore. Anet in this case basically threw some people out of the sporting event for eating in the stands and we just now found out eating is a bannable offense. Now we have to wonder if drinking is too. Then we have to tell the entire world because nobody actually knows the complicated rules.

tmakinen

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWind View Post
The thing that some people are pissed off about though is that if we go to a sporting event we know that if we run out onto the field we will get thrown out...but in Guild Wars we don't know what the hell is right and wrong anymore.
This is actually a decent analog, but not the way you apparently intended it. When you go to a sporting event you are not forced to sign an EULA either before or after you part with your money. There are rules and with luck they might even be posted on some public place. However, this is pretty incidental to the issue since people are expected to have common sense to decide what is permissible and what isn't.

When you lament that you don't know what is right and what bannable in GW it doesn't mean that the rules are ambiguous, it's just that you're lacking common sense. It is dead easy to avoid doing anything bannable. I have something around 5k hours of playtime on my belt (been too trepidating to check lately) and never, ever I have felt unsure about whether any of my in-game actions are bannable.

Then there is the final point that I would like to drive home: the rules are not there so that ANet could screw you whichever way the like. They are there to protect every player (you including) from unfair actions of other players. If you are on the right side of the fence, you should support ANet's attempts to make the playing field level for everybody and to banish those who are willing to take shortcuts to success. Online games where bots, 'sploits and cheats are allowed to go rampant are very soon failed games.

nasty_lord_666

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targren View Post
If they don't want to say what is allowed and what is not, then let them come out and say "NO MACROS". That is unambiguous, explicit, and leaves no room for "corner cases" or "loopholes."
Thats fine in theory, but how should they realize that? I mean even a doubleclick on a mousebutton is in fact a macro, you want to get banned for using a doubleclickbutton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by creelie View Post
Though I do think a more appropriate punishment would have been setting their accounts' Luxon AND Kurzick faction back to 0. That would be hilarious.
i actually like the idea and to be sure they're really getting in trouble, also set the points for the Guild to 0... The situation would probably resolve itself
Or there are suddendly a massive amount of 1-man guilds

cataphract

cataphract

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ashford Abbey

Hey Mallyx [icU]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp Jade View Post
You forgot to mention how starcraft won gw when he got r15 hero because it was made to be 'unattainable'
I most certainly did not. Forgetting to mention something implies knowledge about it. Since I couldn't care less for HA grinders without life, there's nothing to forget about them.

SPURLUXE

SPURLUXE

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Japan

All the botters/macro users should be banned permanently.
botting is botting, macro is macro.

Davros Uitar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Fool Wolves

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWind View Post
I think what Targren is trying to say that everybody keeps missing is that we don't get to see the EULA until we have already paid for the game thus making us HAVE to accept it. We CAN'T deny the EULA even if we read it and think it is ridiculous.
Well most of the "he did this" and "we never did that" stuff just washes over me, but when I got to the quoted statement I found something that didn't sit well with me. It might sound like a plausible approach to the writer but lets break it down.

Sure we don't get to see the EULA prior to playing the game - that is a fair enough statement. How much of that though is actually a problem. Honestly, how many people would read it for s start, or more to thepoint, how many people who did read it would say "hmm - this game doesn't like botting", and decide to heck with it, I am not buying it if I can't bot.

Seeing the EULA up front is not going to change anyone from buying the game. If they are people who want to bot then they don't give a toss about the rules and will buy the game and bot. If they are people who want to abide by the rules they will by it and play by the rules.

The EULA isn't some draconian legislation intended to drive all the fun out of life - it is a simple set of standards that you are expcted to comply with.

Man up ladybug - the problem is not the EULA.

Oh - and the faction reset to 0 is a way better idea than a ban over halloween. Give them Halloween and remove the faction.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Quote:
I think what Targren is trying to say that everybody keeps missing is that we don't get to see the EULA until we have already paid for the game thus making us HAVE to accept it. We CAN'T deny the EULA even if we read it and think it is ridiculous.
Yes you can deny the UA (There is no End User License Agreement, it's just a User Agreement), but by doing so you can't play the game. Also you can see the UA on their website, before you have paid for the game. (just correcting a few things you said)

Sol Deathgard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Shadows of the Dragon

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
this portion of the game is so unbalanced and difficult, that a few players may have felt they had no other choice.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I know about 15 savior of the kurzicks, & about 5 savior of the luxons as we speak. I'm about 2 1/2 away from being a savior of the kurzick myself. I even know someone that have 3 accounts all savior of both kurzick & luxon. Funny part of all this is, faction farming is not the only thing these people did during the time they worked on it.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
When you lament that you don't know what is right and what bannable in GW it doesn't mean that the rules are ambiguous, it's just that you're lacking common sense.
I don't know. "Comment sense" would seem to dictate that you won't get banned for doing something EXPLICITLY being stated as being OK by one of their own bloody people. If that's not the case, then the rules are failing in both clarity AND common sense.

If the rules are being changed, they should just SAY so. That's all I'm asking for here. I'm asking for clarification because the original posting didn't even say a damn thing about macros, just bots, so I can't even tell if the G15 and the like are something someone on guru just pulled out of a dark, smelly hole to fill some personal agenda.

Yes, I have a nostromo N52, and I use a macro. I use the red thumb-button to cast my perma-shadow form sequence when running. It's only 3 keypresses, but there's a 1/4 sec delay between them. Does that qualify as botting? What about using it for HFFF for keypresses only? No mouse, no autozone, not even auto-targeting Arne. What about mapping 1 key to semicolon-space to make cleaning up after a raptor farm go faster? (Note: the latter two are examples only, but I was considering the cleanup one)

These are legitimate questions, considering that ANet has said that "it depends" and does NOT take the line of some (misguided IMNSHO) guru members that "all macro users should be banned"

All I want is an official line on it. I want an answer from Anet, not from Guru users with an axe to grind on the subject.

DreamWind

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
When you lament that you don't know what is right and what bannable in GW it doesn't mean that the rules are ambiguous, it's just that you're lacking common sense.
Not necessarily. No amount of common sense could have told us that using a G15 keyboard is a bannable offense. I personally have a G11 and have no idea I could have been banned for using it. The word macro is nowhere in the EULA. Basically the problem is this:

1. Anet's bans people for reasons they didn't know was bannable.

2. Anet unbans said players because they realize their policy is sketchy and their game design for the area isn't the greatest anyways (even saying people HAD to bot lol).

3. Anet comes out and says they don't support 3rd party programs.

4. Players still don't know which 3rd party programs are bannable and which aren't. Many players continue to use 3rd party programs as if nothing ever happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen
Then there is the final point that I would like to drive home: the rules are not there so that ANet could screw you whichever way the like. They are there to protect every player (you including) from unfair actions of other players. If you are on the right side of the fence, you should support ANet's attempts to make the playing field level for everybody and to banish those who are willing to take shortcuts to success. Online games where bots, 'sploits and cheats are allowed to go rampant are very soon failed games.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Necrid
Yes you can deny the UA (There is no End User License Agreement, it's just a User Agreement), but by doing so you can't play the game. Also you can see the UA on their website, before you have paid for the game. (just correcting a few things you said)
You can't play the game but you've already paid for it...thats kind of the whole problem with the EULA in Guild Wars. Yea I suppose if you wanted you could go to the website and read the EULA beforehand, but nobody is going to do that. Hell most people don't even read the EULA as they accept it.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
Then there is the final point that I would like to drive home: the rules are not there so that ANet could screw you whichever way the like. They are there to protect every player (you including) from unfair actions of other players. If you are on the right side of the fence, you should support ANet's attempts to make the playing field level for everybody and to banish those who are willing to take shortcuts to success. Online games where bots, 'sploits and cheats are allowed to go rampant are very soon failed games.
(Emphasis mine)

That's exactly my point. I *DO* support making a level playing field. But I do not consider "It depends on what kind of mood the GM is in that day" to be a "level playing field". If they say outright "don't use G15/N52", then I won't use it anymore. Simple as that. I just don't want to hear "That's a nice ranger in Elite Slut Armor you have there... be a shame if something, you know, unfortunate happened to it because Joe GM had a fight with his wife that morning."

Graven

Graven

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2008

oh

oh

E/

meh the game is too easye

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

EULA says usage of bots is a bannable offense.

People use bots. Anet should ban them.

Where does it say "sorry a title requires a lot of grind" is an acceptable excuse?

Regina Buenaobra

Regina Buenaobra

ArenaNet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius View Post
It's because Gaile said that it was OK to use the Logitech G15 keyboard scripts - but that keyboard has scripting functions not only for keypresses but for mouse events, delays, and looping. In short, it's got fully fledged bot-creation software, and people subsequently got banned for botting with it.

But Gaile DID say it was OK.

Hence... this.
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.

Thargor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

It is just too bad that the new change to faction gain is going to do nothing to fix this problem. Sure they doubled the faction gain while under the blessing but it is still slower than the HFFF, so there is still no point in grinding this title any other way. They can ban all the bots they want to but it will not stop people from botting or using macros until they make the title more realistic to achieve without using those options.

Orange Milk

Orange Milk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Ganking, USA

Retired

R/

I've no issue for unbanning these botters.

Though I would like the punishment to fit the crime.

Instead of a 2 week ban, their total faction transfered should be reset to "0" or at the least several hunder k lower. Seems to me it's alot more fitting than just a 2 week slap on the wrist.

I mean, if a person botted themselves 500k of Luxon faction, after the ban it's still there, what did the person loose other than 2 weeks of gaming?

That answer is: Nothing

So whats to stop said people from botting in the future? They could still do it, just not as often perhaps to avoid red flags. If they do tooo much, get caught and server another ban, they may just as well feel it was worth it to be banned to gain 500k more faction the easy way.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.
So if I understand correctly:
1. people who were using ONLY G15s weren't banned since that's not an action that results in a ban (this would be really nice to clear up with all the confusion going on).
2. people that were using REAL bots (as in "a method that otherwise results in having one's account terminated WITHOUT the possibility of it being restored") were banned and now they might end up having their accounts restored.
Or am I wrong?

Thanks!

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

Lower the faction caps let everyone shift to the correct tier after implementation of new levels. Destroy the FFF exploit by adding a drop at the luxon group by the mushroom (box of secret luxon plans) that needs to be carried back to the guy who gives out the quest in order to get the reward. End of FFF end of botting in the area. Looking for Faction Farming group 1of 8.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.
THAT is all I wanted to know. Thank you, Regina.

english storm

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.
So:

G15 use = no ban?
G15 + bot use = ban?

Or are you saying a G15 is now classified as a bot, hence the ban?

Myself like many others would like classification on this matter to answer the questions once and for all.

Thanks

JASON626

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/

these titles were designed for players playing the game for long duration. Now that anet is making gw2 a newer player will being playing catchup to those who worked on there titles for 2 years. They only have a year now to do what it took some to do in 2 years. If gw1 was going to go on 5 more years (with no future gw2) then no rebalance would really be needed as much, but time is short for the casual player(2-3 hours) a day that just starts.

DreamWind

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.
LoL...the plot thickens!

Painbringer

Painbringer

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2006

Minnesota

Black Widows of Death

W/Mo

Speculation time

IMO they have software that can tell a G-15 macro is in use or any macro device for that matter. (Every move is sent to the server so this is not far fetched) This means that they are able to see a narrowed down list of accounts using a macro device. Now they can narrow this list of accounts using one in a specific area. Now they can narrow it down to hours played in this area or faction points earned etc... So now they have a really narrowed list of accounts. Lastly they can run a report on keystrokes made by these accounts. Looking at the report all they need to do is look for patterns of accounts running the same keystrokes over and over and over.

Or

They have a program that scans all keystrokes made to the server by all accounts. The program looks for patterns. Once a pattern is established that account is on a watch or review. If this is the case it could just be ill fated luck that all of them use a g-15. Humans will stop do something else they will not do the exact same thing over and over like a bot. This is just a guess, but if you have a programmable devise stay away from complicated macros that draw attention to you. And do not do the same thing over and over and over

Lycan Nibbler

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

AZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra View Post
This issue has nothing to do with the Logitech G15 keyboard. Those using the keyboards were found to be using bots in addition to the keyboard.
The question is now then.. when does a macro become a bot?

1) Is setting up one key to do three in sequence with appropriate time spaces ok (ie for perma sin or to shorten 55 monk setup)?

2) Is using a macro on a key press that makes all the heros attack a target with skill 1, then skill 2 on their toolbar ok (ie SF spike etc).

3) Is flagging using the G15 to do mouse movements allowed?

Or is it combining 2 or more of these (or others I hadnt thought of at this moment).

If you dont want to tell us because you think your bot detection might be compromised, then fair enough, but just tell us that please.

Regina Buenaobra

Regina Buenaobra

ArenaNet

Join Date: Apr 2008

Me/

The issue of the G15 keyboard is a completely separate issue and separate discussion from the designers' decision to convert a few players' permanent bans to two-week suspensions. The two topics have nothing to do with each other in this case, and people are just connecting unrelated dots. If the players involved in this just so happened to have used a G15 keyboard, they were not banned because of the G15 -- they were banned for using a bot program.