Thursday November 13, 2008 - update notes

Nobody's forcing you to do anything. You don't need to do anything, except stop complaining.

If I want to improve my titles, which is what's left for me to do in this game I like, I need to do it. I'm still playing this game and, as such, I do care about what updates like this bring into my gaming experience.

If you don't wanna see people complaining, you're not forced to read this thread anymore, nor you need to reply, unless you have something more constructive than that to say.

You keep repeating this, but that doesn't make it so. Is it so hard to understand that this is not some universal absolute? That for some players grind is actually increased because they can't achieve those "more than HFFF" rates of gain, or even match HFFF rates of gain? For those who dislike PvP, the only way to achieve those rates now is playing in HM, and not everyone is an expert HM player who can clear all the missions in a few hours or vq an area in 40 minutes. Anyone who tries to max the title in NM PvE will now take much longer to do so.

This raises a good point. It will take longer for less knowledgable (Knowledge is Power) players to grind out either Kurzick or luxon titles. HOWEVER, this update should give players the incentive to work on improving their effectiveness in game-play. Instead of bailing out because "it's too hard," I would hope that the increased rewards would give players the incentive to improve their methods & hone their skills. The people who took advantage of the HFFF runs took the time to learn how to do that, why not do the same thing with their actual profession that will help them with getting through other areas of the game?

Vanquishing and completing missions is only grind once you have already completed that task, which Gill seems to be going against by the looks of it. Hey, at least people are rewarded for playing instead of hitting flags 100% of the time now.

See what you did there? You want something. It's NOT a need. It's ENTERTAINMENT.

I love seeing people complain, especially when I know I'm right.

LOL, right about what? You hardly had a point in this whole thread, you're basically saying that life is unfair, that every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up and on that day, he knows that he must run faster than the gazelle, so just because you've nothing to loose or to care about, everyone here should stop complaining.

I like when presumptuos and arrogant people like you are this frank about what they supposedly are. Thanks for your contribution, Mr Right. If you love seeing people complain then get popcorn, because it's not you who's going to tell me when to stop.

All I can say is if you want something you're going to need something to accomplish that want.

I don't think it's that bad going back and doing them again....actually its fun.

It's not my repetition that makes it so. It is so, all by itself.
It's for the benefit of people like you, that I must repeat it.

These people who can't attain HFFF rates... and insist on staying in normal mode: The update has taken not taken away their previous sources of faction, it has added extra sources. Therefore less grind.

Edit: Oops, Wrong. They took away HFFF which worked in NM as long as you were Kurzick (Luxons lost nothing). Sucks for them then, if they won't go to HM, where even rubbish players can gain faction at a rate that maybe doesn't exceed HFFF but at least matches it - and using methods that are less grindy than HFFF.

But again, that's their choice. If they insist on staying in NM while working on the titles, they are deliberately increasing the grind for themselves. Bad choice.

I'm right because these people were given something for FREE yet they insist on complaining that what they were given wasn't good enough. Kind of childish.

And please don't spout any nonsense about lions and gazelles. It's a poor debate tactic if you need to resort to metaphor to make your point, it shows that you think your original argument can't stand well enough on its own.

I love popcorn.

Ok, that's childish, just like censoring people complaints.

I'm just criticizing some aspects of this update, which was good, but kind of half-backed to me, because of some debatable changes (like this one). Just to keep up the "business world" metaphors you introduced... I don't know you, but I can get fired if the customers that turn to me are not satisfied, and I get rebukes if I don't get my work completely done.

I'm not completely satisfied about this update, whatever you say. That's how I feel about it, and you're no way entitled to tell people they should stop supporting their argument, while also failing to bring any constructive argument against their position yourself.

BTW, we weren't given ANYTHING for free, we were given PART of what we've played for, which is factions for a couple of missions.

You wouldn't get ANY "free" factions without those modified missions accomplished. I don't see why THAT was retroactive, while books weren't. They could have plainly added factions for a book straight to the characters' title tracks while handing out no money or xp (and the problem with "economy" is gone), I doubt anyone would have argued then...

Neither Anet nor you have yet given a reasonable response to this. No, "economy" wasn't, sorry.

Unless you mean we got "free" stuff because we got this update for free. Well we did not. We've paid for it when we bought the game, it's called customer support. Since I paid for it, I want it good, and the only way a company can improve is to address criticism constructively.

Don't care.

Don't care.

You got your faction reward as it existed at the time. Let's talk about your "job" again (like customer service is really a job). If you get a raise after a year of employment, do you get paid retroactively for your first year? No, you're a wage slave, and so your compensation isn't retroactive.

Anet said they did the best they could to make past rewards retroactive, but there's no way to tell how many times an individual character has done a mission. So you got, for free, the best you could have.

I never said economy was the answer. I could give a shit about the economy and the fictitious value of your precious pixels.

You didn't pay for customer service. You paid for the right to access the game as it existed when you paid money for it. The EULA doesn't say anywhere that, should the game change, veteran players will be compensated (in imaginary value, mind you, we're still talking about fictitious wealth and pixels on a screen) in any way, shape, or form. You are entitled to NOTHING, and you got more than that. So keep complaining. It's lulzy.

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Most players I know have more than 8 characters.
Most players I know have completed protector on ALL their characters.
Most players I know have completed guardian on at least 2 characters.
My numbers did not take into account NM books.

960/60 = 16

So if we assume that players have not done guardian on any of their characters a player needs 16 character spaces to gain the same points.

(960-(2*120))/60 = 12

So if we assume that players have got guardian on (at least) 2 characters (as per my experience with many players) and protector on all, a player only needs 12 characters to have accumulated the same faction. This is not a lot of characters in my experience.

Many PvE players are a "got to catch them all type". Many PvE players like to kit out all their characters individually. The "main" character concept (in my experience) was primarily influenced by the introduction of titles initially and the "anti-multi-character" way they were implemented. I do know a reasonable number of players who have protecto and guardian titles on all their characters. I know one crazy individual who also has vanquishing titles on most of her characters.

So more specifically my definition of grind from my initial post is multiple completions on an individual character.

The method is there for the books to be retro-active. Players don't give a hoot about the money. But the faction simply from protector and guardian on multiple characters is a SIGNIFICANT amount for the majority of PvE players in my acquaintance.

In the end many old players probably WILL go and repeat these missions (sin bonus) but it doesn't change the fact that to get the same rewards as a new player, they are being asked to "grind" more than a new player would.

It doesn't change the fact that this update was good, no. It doesn't change the fact that I like it. But I do feel it was a serious oversight by Anet - and to be bushed off as "damaging to the economy" just seems silly.

Sure there is, so I didn't get the best I could have. They have a simple way to know if a character has done a mission or not. They have an algorithm that keeps tracks of progression through the game for each character and determines wether the icon of those outposts is crossed with swords, spears or whatever after you've done them.

We didn't get the best we could get for NO APPARENT REASON. When asked, we were said it was technically possible, they were about to do it, then reconsidered it because of "economy"... So..

Oh well, they do!

But wait, you don't care. You apparently care about nothing. GW is just an ammass of pixel, so who cares?

I'm with you on this. It's just a game. I'm actually making a matter of principle out of a game... And admitedly that's not worth my time, expecially when people just don't care about anything that has no significance to them.

We're just discussing about an update. No one here has gone @ Anet Headquarters gun in hand requesting a fix. No one is taking Anet to the Court for a break of the terms of the EULA for not getting the update as expected. No point in that, since it's up to Anet to decide what to put into the game.

We're just discussing, which is the sole purpose of forums like these. So, I'll stop complaining. This thread is going circular anyway, so any further contribution is meaningless. You just stop bitching, since you don't care about fictional values and you obviously don't want to discuss.

Is it apparent now?

There is no economy. Or it's just so broken you'd have to use a microscope to look for it.

Faction doesn't affect the "economy", though. Neither does exp.

Well I wouldn't say Faction doesn't effect the economy so quickly. Faction can turn into amber and jade which can be sold and thus throw more gold into the economy which causes it to be affected. Faction can also be trade for Zashien keys which also can be sold into the economy for 4.5-5k and thus affects the economy as well though it doesn't create new gold into it. And just because it doesn't create new gold doesn't mean it can't affect the economy as this gold used for buying keys is gold not used for buying other goods and once the keys are used that gold is gone forever so it really does affect the economy more than one thinks.

Factions awarded for books goes straight to your title track, you can't spend it.

So prove you are right, by giving facts and reasons to support your claim, and in a civilized way, something you have failed to do so far.
All you've done is personal attacks and saying things like "i don't care" when there's something you don't like, you blame people for "complaining" and "being greedy" and 2 lines later you prove you are the one to fit the descriptions, you are the definition of a troll.

So if you're so sure you're right, please show us why, in a polite way.
If you fail to do that, then it is you who should "stop complaining", as it is our point that still stands, not yours.

/sticky and close thread

12chars

Faction from Books is added directly to the title. It can't be used to buy skills, materials, scrolls or can't be donated for doubled amount.

So, what you're saying is that GW economy may or may not exist?

I think he's saying:

- that economy has really nothing to do with the complaints about book. Had factions awarded for a completed book been retroactive, it could have gone straight to your title track. Even if they went for the "pay-per-fill-pages" route, they could have just excluded money from those rewards. So there are so many practical solutions they have just ignored that "economy" sounds a bit like an excuse right now.

- that economy gets mistreated every day and no one seem to care. So, why does economy suddenly become relevant only when it comes to books, when they allow permanent shadow form, when they allowed exploitation of HFFF and botting for over an year and so on? Again, economy sounds like an excuse...

Pretty much. They have let Ursan and now Shadow Form to rampage through economy like a fiery elephant through a Chinese fireworks shop. And now they are using the very same economy as an excuse?

It's like crapping on someone's door and then asking him for a towel to clean your butt.

About my previous post: Economy might NOT exist (because honestly...) or it's just so damaged nobody will see if it really died. Maybe it did. Understand now?

I didn't require an explanation in the first place.

Why are you people so serious about this? You're approaching the anal-retentive point. Get over it. Books weren't made retroactive, you were given an explanation why. EOD. Beating a dead horse will not make aNet do a roll-back or fork over the gold you assume you deserve.

Granted, the economy argument is weak, but it's not like there's only one issue here, or a simple solution. Fully retro-active rewards would have seriously peeved players who spent the past couple of years grinding the title, with whatever means were available at the time. Those same people likely also have their protector and guardian titles - retro-active faction would render a significant chunk of their work null and void, likely leading to another couple of multi-page rants.

ANet could not treat everyone "fairly", but they did strike a good balance. We got *some* retro-active rewards and better options to make the title more accessible, without anybody being able to accuse them of "making it easier" or handing out instant titles. I couldn't be happier with what they did for us.

We will soon have our answers.

Quote from Regina's Journal on official wiki, November 21th 2008:
To address a few key issues raised by the November 13 Game Update, I have asked the developers to write a Developer Update to follow-up on those points. This will be published in English, German, French, Spanish, and Italian -- tomorrow on the wiki.

Looking forward to see those answers

See, I'm among those.

I've two characters who've grinded all the rep titles already, except the account-based allegiance title (currently r10 Kurzick). Those are my main and my best secondary characters. My main is also Legendary Guardian. I've many more toons tough - most of them got all the three Protector titles - and I've never considered grinding again for each of them.

With retroactivity in place, I could get the chance to improve all of my other characters' rep titles considerably (and PvE skills tied to them), without that much grinding, so I wouldn't really complain about the grinding I consciously chose to do in the past.

"It's too hard to make the changes you want, so we're not going to try."

Most likely.

I think this will be another reason not to trust A.Net about GW 2. I mean, if they can make retroactive books without having a title, yet they can't make retroactive books even WITH a title... Then it's really, really bad.

I mean, come on, the game already has registered what missions a character has completed, if the character has finished all of them on NM/HM, if finished with bonus... Completely doable.

The update can only mean one of three things:

A. "Retroactive books affect the economy here is how"

B. "Making them retroactive is too hard to implement"

C. "We are making the books retroactive"

I can tell you right now if they choose the A or B route I will call them out on several points.

Oh yea and what is this about people not wanting the gold from the books? I think they should get that too because we have no legit argument that it affects the economy significantly. If Anet comes out with some data to back up those claims I would be pretty surprised, then I'll ask them where their data on shadowform was.

Saying we don't care about the gold at all would be a lie, but it's a minor reward compared to the hours of grinding the faction reward saves us.

I don't believe it'll affect the economy either, but i cannot be sure.

Yea I know, but there are some people here who are completely conceding the gold point for some reason even though I think that is a key part of this. To me the most important thing that happened here is Anet is either completely contradicting themselves or just flat out making false statements. At this point I see no other possibility. Hell that is probably a larger problem than the update itself. We will see what todays update says and maybe I will be proven wrong.

I really hope ANET stands their ground. To cave in, to about 40 or 50 people who have been whining about parts of the update they don't like, would not be a good idea in my opinion. It would only prove that holding your breathe and kicking your feet works.

One of the problems with forums is that you never know how many people have a problem with something. Just 15 minutes ago I entered the Guild Teamspeak and informed those who were present about the "news" that will be handed out tonight on the books ("problem").

I'm a forum reader and offcourse under the impression that everyone knows that the forumcommunity is upset and discusses this "problem". The people on Teamspeak play every day, PvE and PvP, and aren't even aware that there is a "problem". And most of the time they don't want to understand it because they enjoy the game as it is.

How about: D. "Stop whining, you did the missions in the first place without the promise of a faction reward, and now you have the option to do them again to get some faction. Or do a challenge mission. Or vanquish. Or FA/JQ. Or AB. Or don't do it at all, we really don't care, but stop expecting handouts when we just gave you so much cool new stuff."

And to follow up with Ate: I'm literally the only person in my alliance who reads forums, and one of about 5 who even reads the update notes/official wiki on a regular basis. When something big like this happens and I start trying to relate what's happening to them, I get the equivalent of a bunch of blank stares, followed by something along the lines of, "Why do people care so much again?", which is then followed by a call to vanquish something or do a dungeon.

Most people are too busy having fun to worry about crap like this. As much as I've learned from forums, sometimes I wish I never joined as well...

ANIMALS!
How can you live among such creatures?!?!?

Best. Mental. Image. Of. The. Day.
Win. WIN. WIN!