Thursday November 13, 2008 - update notes

You are playing a game not the stock market. You should have be playing for the enjoyment of the game not the investment of time. I truly feel sorry for you. I am a long time player and have no regrets for how I have played and feel no obligation from ANET, they gave me much more than what I have paid for.

I don't care if YOU think titles are stupid. We're talking about fairness here BTW. Some people want what they've played for, no "free stuff", just "stuff" they've done something for without getting ANY credit, which is being given just now, pretty late IMO.

And, BTW, that's called SUPPORT. ANet owes us something, because we paid for SUPPORT as well.

Obviously I realize that. You are engaging in deflection.

You are making an assumption that I was not. I was enjoying the game until titles were released that involved incredible investments of time. So I avoided those titles. I loved the pursuit of Protectors and Legendary Guardian. My complaint with Anet in my posts prior do not address the more grindy titles, but the unfairness of not choosing to retroactively reward those who already completed specific titles - whatever they may be, whatever they enjoyed doing themselves - in this case, the ones they chose to ignore. Time spent on them? Sure. Time wasnt my point though.

And I for you. Expression of opinions and finding ones that differ on a forum is by definition expected. We all have a right here to tell Anet what we think and discuss with others the things we differ on.

You don't play for getting credit, you play a game for fun. If I figure my time played divided by total expenditure it equals about $.05 per hour, ANET owes me nothing or anyone else who has played for an extended time.

I think the main complaint is not that older players are screwed in more ways than one, but that they continued to screwed time and time again. I believe it is more of a frustration that there seems to be a disregard for those that have stuck with the game since the beginning and thus been through all the missions and campagins several times and so on.

I might check the math a bit before you get doo deep into efficiency talk. If wiki is accurate, a filled out Shiro's Return book [hard mode] apparently nets 120,000 faction points. With Savior of the Kurzicks/Luxons at 10,000,000 points, you're looking at playing through factions around 80 times on hard mode to max this via books.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the HFFF nerf either. I'm all for it. However, this change just seems to vary the scenery and tasks of your grinding process. It doesn't really seem to make it any less "grindy". Beating the game 80 times is no more of an accomplishment than beating it once. This still just shows you have a lot of spare time. At any rate, I wasn't interested in the grind before, and still don't think I am now. If others are happy with the change, huzzah. Maybe I'm missing something here. If so, feel free to clue me in.

I am not attacking just stating my opinion as you said. As far as the popular opinion, if I can read correctly, I see far fewer people stating your side of the discussion.

The way I see it, it kinda encourages you to play through factions again with new characters. Seeing as you can net a nice reward at the end for your troubles.

After a decent number of ABs, vanquishing relavent areas, doing most of the quests, completing the deep/urgoz and finishing the factions campaign in HM and NM (bearing in mind you get faction from completing some missions now too). I can't see there being an unbearable amount of grind.

I had something else typed but, before I say anything to this I would need you to explain what you mean by this does not have any meaning at all to the conversation at hand. Please explain.

We are playing for whatever reasons we like. And who are you to tell people how to play the game, or with what attitude to approach it?

It'S
s about fairness. People can expect to get the same reward for doing the same thing (drops in farmable areas excluded).
Those who have played the game for hours and hours to record their achievements in the form of titles, i might even say the "faithful players", are suddenly denied the reward for their time.
I'd just love to see the look on your faces if your boss hires someone for the exact same job you currently occupy and pays him more than he pays you ... justice?

It's not up to you to decide what's fun for me or anyone else. Playing to improve my character's achievements is FUN for me.

If Anet don't owe us anything, they could just stop updating the game at all and caring about their players then. They got our money, why bothering?

I won't EVER receive my SUPPORT as if it was unquestionable. It's my RIGHT to express my doubt and to protest against things I don't like, since I paid for support as well. That's what should encourage Anet to improve, not merely accepting whatever they do just because this time you're not affected and you don't care about it.

"Attacking" was a poor choice of words on my part and I changed it, but not before you quoted it. You're stating your opinion, yes, but you're also saying you feel sorry for me because I was investing time without enjoying the game. It was an assumption on your part, and it was wrong. Water under the bridge now.

Yeah, well, I agree with you that you are on the side of popular opinion. Its just historically accurate on these forums that anyone not on the side of popular opinion around here comes under heavy fire. I really dont know why that is. Its a forum. Should expect all sides. Its probably why I sounded a little defensive.

People who start playing now will probably enjoy the game as much as I did. More than that, they'll also get REWARDS, in form of MONEY, EXPERIENCE and REP POINTS. Just for giving in a book that simply DIDN'T EXIST when I played the VERY SAME GAME. Reward I have to play for AGAIN if I want it, reward I'm not awarded with, even if I did what's being asked to get it way before this update.

Not asking much, just a retroactive book for everyone who completed the game and had no book to fill at that time. The possibility to pay to get a completed book for clearing the game without doing it all once again. It's repetitive and IMO just a disguised grind.

Playing through the entire game in NM and HM on one of each character plus Vanquishing the side that your faction is on (assuming Kurzick for me):

40,000 (NM book) + 120,000 (HM book) + ~200,000 (VQ - math done in another thread) = 360,000 points per character, 3.6M points for doing this process on one of every profession. Three times through would be well over max title, and doing it twice on every character drops at 7.2M, which is enough for plenty of people to either max the title or be very close from where they're at.

Add in a few rounds of FA/AB/Urgoz, and you're done. Does it include doing the missions quite a few times? Yes, but it presents other options for gameplay - including playing all of your characters to a well-rounded end. I'll probably take this path, finish a book in NM and HM on every one of my characters and Vanquish the 7 Kurzick areas inside Echovald Forest. Screw doing it twice, I'll be 4M faction away from max once I do that and will compensate that, ideally, with the aforementioned AB/FA/Urgoz.

It's still doing the same thing, but it's not doing the *exact* same thing. I always liked repeating the campaigns on each profession to get a good feel for it and give it a fair shot, so this is right up my alley. Just encourages me to play them all and find a good build/team for breezing through HM as well.

Maybe feeling sorry was a poor choice of words on my part. I was thinking of an investment in a monetary sense not: a devoting, using, or giving of time, talent, emotional energy, etc., as for a purpose or to achieve something. In that sense we all have invested in the game. I just don't feel I am owed anything for that investment other than the fun I have had. As for being on the side of popular opinion I do know the feeling and can appreciate your feelings.

Its worth my pointing out, when I read this, that yes, this is a great update, at its core, for newer players. Anet deserves thanks for that, despite its being very late in the coming. I thought this was implied in my posts, but I realize I didnt specifically say it.

At the same time that is where I have been coming from. Anet should not discredit what some older players have already done in an update designed to reward said things actually being done. The very same things.

Is it really a good idea to continue to disgruntle and disappoint a large category of older players when Anet is trying to get all players to come forward into GW2? It could have been done better. It could have been done better... I dont know how many times over the years I have uttered those words.

Me neither. I just feel fairness in implementation is paramount. I wasnt owed anything prior to this update, but with the update, fairness in implementation would have been presumed. I thought it went without saying. Most seem to have little trouble with it, but I stand here with my flag on the hill saying I am not "most".

No worries though. You seem like a decent sort.

Your reward was the enjoyment you had for your time played. As for the job example it happens all the time just ask most women.

You're a little off there, the ppl who had already played the game did get something... their TITLE, some are QQing about having to play through for the 5,6 or 7th time if you played through that many times for no reward, why not play again 1 more time for a reward? And myself, I have played through all the campaigns but will do so again just because I want to see what the book pages look like, a little gold and faction/exp doesn't hurt either.

Worker implies we're being payed.
Employer implies we're doing something for NCSoft to accelerate productions and such.
Volunteer implies we're doing work for free.

We're none of them. We're simply gamers and customers who bought this game and play it. You're basically saying companies can advertise the game as an FPS... but they turn it into an RPG later on, and it's okay because "we already payed for it."

We have the right to file complaints and criticism about the game, we have the right to argue over what will make the game better or worse. Just because we bought it doesn't mean that we're not entitled to do so. Sure, some complaints are dumb as f*ck, but even if they are the person saying it is entitled to do so. The people complaining that all the work they've done has gone to waste have a fairly legitimate reason. Nobody likes finishing something off and finding out that you're getting the reward a few months later or something for doing it, without it being retroactive. Can't say I give a shit about that myself though.

Ya rly. I'm with the QQ'ers in this thread because I find the reasons given against them to be hilarious (including the ones from Anet).

That being said, I would have been happier with an update saying "titles removed from game".