Fort Aspenwood no longer balanced.

You and a few of your buddies synced, so four guys with coordinated builds and probably on vent, had a three game winning steak in a 8 vs 8 random arena? Who wouldn't win under those circumstances?

I wouldn't dismiss everyone in there as being clueless. Its just my opinion that some don't have the discipline to win. You always had people who completely understand the object of the match, however these individuals get into grudge matches outside of the fort and engage in target fixation long after the target is no longer a threat to achieving the main objective. With the shorter duration of the match this behavior is much more devastating than it was before the update. Add a couple of those guys to your team with the obligatory leaver and its gg for Luxons.

FA is unbalanced in favor of kursick cause of the crappy Ai of the turtles and the skills used by kursick npc.

Just by standing in a good spot , a kursick can make the turtle firing into the wall for the entire match. This is an exploit and only Anet can fix it, but they don't meh...

And almost all skills used by kursick npc are anti-melee. So if luxons have more than 2 melee in their team , it's a very hard run! Ranger are not good at all also. Best is an all casters team.

So don't expect to win if you don't play a caster for luxon at FA.

FA has always been unbalanced. Generally unbalanced in the Kurzicks favor. Luxons just have bad luck sometimes, but it is for the most part easy to break through and win.

You can't say it's imbalanced because of one single element. Interesting enough, a year ago I was listening how Luxon NPCs are overpowered because warriors plow through everything and turtle bombards.

And you know what? It's true. Luxon NPCs are superior. Let's say both side do nothing. Who wins? Luxons. Juggernaut is so useless that in 95% cases doesn't even reach any Luxon. Kurzick NPCs in the middle are permanently dead and don't respawn. Etc etc


Turtle AI is fine. You can complain as much as you want, but both sides have NPCs and no NPC AI is perfect. The turtle does its job. It's not AI's fault that Luxon players dont kill those standing in the way of the turtle. Sorry, but this is PvPvE not full PvE. You can't just stand and watch while everything is done by itself.



Numbers tell of balance and imbalance. All these "reasons" and "arguments" listed in this thread are for the most part useless and simple whinning.


That's all I have to say. Now go on blaming everyone else when you lose. Yeah, players in FA aint perfect - go back to GvG. Yeah, AI in FA isn't perfect - go program better AI and make your own game. Simple.

fixed that for you ^^

anyhow, after playing in FA from luxon side for over 2 years, i can say this:

yes its harder now to win from luxon side, bur wasn't it always side? ppl play luxon side because from kurzik its so damm easy,all u need 1 monk a rit to keep npc up. it they would fix anything they should not let rangers from kurzik side get npcs at mines with longbow,and the fact that a single person being healed can hold the turtle forever.

on the update, idk i like getting to the green is getting me 2,500 faction which is much then the old 800 for wining! 160 for losing, its about time!.

Disclaimer: I only read the OP

When talking about FA balance there are 2 kinds of balances:
-Faction gain luxon and kurzick side over time is equal
-Chance to win is equal for both luxon and kurzick

While the first statement might be true, the second one definately is not.

The biggest problem is all builds are useful as a kurzick (some more effective then others), while on the luxon only a few can really do something (Defy Pain tank hitting the eles anyone?)

Another problem is that a player who does what to do has more influence on kurzick side then on luxon side. If you enter as monk and keep healing the npcs, you will only lose to a luxon team with atleast a few good players.

Also, it is very easy for kurzick players to kill / shutdown the siege turtles, which are the only help the luxons get.

The final fight at gunther is probably the worst balanced situation, just because the kurzicks ressurect so much closer...

On the effects of the update:
Since FA is now a decent way to gain kurzick faction, a lot of kurzick monks popped up, while most luxon players are still clueless...

hmmmmm was it not designed to be easier for kurzicks when Jade Quarry is easier for luxons? It seems logical, that kurzick have more chances on their own territory and luxons on theirs. Fort Aspenwood was never balanced, and the proportion of kurzick wins seems not to be changed after the update.

u do know that is basically everything in guild wars that involves other players right?

You're right lol. Turtles are doing their job when they try to attack unreachable targets. My mistake, this AI is working fine!

Useless but working fine...

I have started playing the Luxon side because you can get into battles a lot faster than on the Kurzick side. My first 10 battles we won at least 7/10 (as Luxon). It was just a matter of keeping the turtles alive and other tactics, mainly stripping enchants and the sort. For most of the battles the Kurzicks had bonders and other monks and we still beat them. So in my opinion Luxon side can win, it isn't that hard.

What if 8v8 organized teams were able to fight on FA/JQ? It would have to have a balancing limit of no more than 2-3 players of the same class on the same team (preventing Kurzick teams of 4 monks/4 RestoRits). Its potential is wasted by being an easily exploitable Random Arena.

FA/JQ is advertised on the official site as being a prime place for "Cross Training for GvG". This was probably applicable when a higher standard of player played them at the outset of Factions. However there are some major flaws in the basis of Aspenwood that make it worse than RA:

1. Dying
Dying in Aspenwood is relatively insignificant due to the lack of Death Penalty and that the respawn time is relatively quick. No teamates have to carry Rezzes to get you back into the game in a quick fashion. Dying can even be beneficial as it can restore a character's energy. However this may also lead to a player not weaponswapping or using that extra skillslot for extra defense.

2. Risk vs Reward
Dying is not even penalized with the Death Penalty as it is in RA leading to "[the player] can take risks more freely than might otherwise" mentality. While this is establishes a lower bar for the sake of newer players it does "[forgive] mistakes and bad positioning". More importantly, it doesn't dissuade a new player from using suicidal things like Superior Runes as much as if they had death penalty. FA would be much more interesting if Death Penalty were accrued with each death (no more 4 Kurzick monks with infinite energy pools every 6 seconds). Another possibility would be having players respawn every 30 seconds with Luxons respawning at the turtles (mobile command centers), increasing the importance of the turtles.

3. Randomness
FA would be better off if teams were limited to a specific number of players per class on each side. No more blasted trying to blind 4 Rangers all with Antidote Sig/Mending Touch and spamming interrupts. No more trying to shut down 4 different monks all by yourself. More diverse and balanced teams need to happen on both sides for the game to be more rewarding and balanced. Shutting someone down should matter as should killing them.

4. Exploits
They have always existed in some way but something needs to be done about being able to pop a spirit at the top of the hill and keeping the turtle stuck there. There needs to be either a response from Anet acknowledging it as an exploit and letting it be reported or it should be fixed.

Summary: At the very least Random teams should have a mechanic restricting the number of classes. Dying should have more serious connotations (ie a Death Penalty or change in respawn time although unlikely to happen). FA should be a place 'easy to learn, harder to master' instead of a place that is 'easy to learn, scrubs think they master'. (I would personally want it to be a means of getting new players into GvG) In the end it should promote and reward skillful play instead of being a festering sore upon the face of GW PvP.

This is the only part of your post that needed quoting.

Monking turtles is pointless half the time.
You get 1 ranger on each turtle and theyre useless.
Then you have a monk whos healing your SH eles who are doing nothing against a bonded gate. Even with rend a decent monk can fight through a SH ele easy. Hell I do it with my rit with just Weapon of warding and 1 other heal. Not that hard.

FA should stay random 8v8 play. FA and JQ are the only places were you can screw up and because there are so many people and npcs around no one will probably notice.

Bringing death penalty in FA would seriously cripple people. Deaths occur too much on both sides and in a short order you would be rendered useless. The Luxons are easy to pick off when trying to break thru the inner purple and orange gates, and turtles do big damage when they are both inside. It would hamper any kind of training benefit for gvg because you would have to modify your bar to include more self healing and defense. The current no dp gives you the freedom to experiment with different skills and set ups. FA is a great place to experiment, I would see different setups on gw obs and try them out at FA to see what made them work. I may swap out a skill if it doesn’t make sense in a random format but the bar would essentially remain the same.

I like the idea of limited classes on each side but how would the game know the difference between a smiter and a healer/prot monk or a damage rit vs a resto rit.

The spirit exploit was fixed in a previous gw build.

If turtles were fixed it so they wouldn't get stuck it would be ok. The problem is that is it INSANELY easy to screw up the turtles. Once turtles are down the match basically becomes a GvG except that all players respawn completely every 5 seconds, have no DP, and one side just has to stay alive for a few minutes to win. Ohh, and the attacker team probably has no good coordination to be able to spike down specific targets well because its an expanded RA format.

If two teams of good players face off in FA the kurzick team has a massive advantage. Luxons winning means that the kurzicks sucked a bit more then the luxons did in that match. The map is the very definition of unbalanced, and if you had organized smart teams I would expect the kurzicks to win 90% of the time regardless of what the time limit was. The only saving grace of the FA balance is that it is mostly random team assignments and the average player there is of very low skill.

I will say that the faster matches are much more exciting though. Which is good, because I don't play for faction or wins.

Turtles shooting walls and staying at the gate just waiting to get killed is perfectly fine...... AS A KURZICK THAT IS !!

By your logic we shoudnt have a forum or a community? Why even bother playing online? If you dont like something you just 1 2 3 and make your own game.

All of PVP would be better off that way, I think.

It's funny it seems to be the common rule here if the side you play on or the things you do in the game aren't in your favor then the game is unbalanced. lol That's really so funny. You didn't hear any luxon players whinning and QQing when the luxon side was winning 80% of the time. Now that the kurzicks are winning more often and things are at a 50/50 balance they are howling to the moon about imbalance this and imbalance that. lol But, that is the way of GW and Guru really. This is more of a whiners corner place to come than it is a forum about neat and fair things in GW.

@Shadow Kurd
If you NEED turtles to win the match then that proves you aren't a very good player. All you need are a couple of disenchanters and a couple of touch rangers and you can plow through the gates on the luxon side. I know we've done it and recently. Once you can get people to forget the npc's in the middle and just go directly to the green gate npc's and you are smart enough to lure the juggernaut away from the gate...kill him, then go for the elementalist then the others you can win easily and a lot.

So, once again it is not imbalanced it is the ignorance of the players on the luxon side and how they play (rambo's a lot of them want to solo or 1v1 too much).

Also, because of the new faction gains for the time being you're going to see more players in FA and thus more ignorant players and not as many good players. So, suck it up, live with it and change your builds and you might win sometimes.

[iro]..sure, let's just forget about turtles, npcs, balance and stuff. just get everyone on the luxon side to run touch rangers, disenchanters or heal/prot hybrid's and uber-charge thru the fortress
Insane amount of Kurzick Heal Rits and monks will be too scared to outheal them...
and of course I've never seen caster-hate on the kurzick side either. [/iro]

counterbuilds != balance


deal with it, FA has been broken forever. before the update went online, FA has been a FUN Arena that didn't matter at all.
NOW it does matter, because raging hfff kids want easy factions and swarming FA with monks is idiot-proof right now

I have nothing against Touch Rangers but this forum is very unforgiving. I suspect someone is gonna use this against you.

On a personal note. I've been screwing Touch Rangers all weekend long. D-Shot one of their attacks and cripple. Good for laughs. I pissed off quite a few Touch Rangers. Doesn't require much luck to D-Shot the right skill either. I mean every Touch Ranger who gets within striking distance of an enemy goes 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3 (need energy), 1,2,1,2,1,2 (D-Shotted!!!!) ZOMG it's the effin Ranger again!!!! Grrr he's a dead man!!! D'oh! He crippled me!!!!

The reason kurzicks have it easier is because they don't have to "do" anything but wait. Luxons actually have to complete an objective to win. Kurzicks just have to survive. That's not to say its not balanced. Its just when you have luxons who don't know wtf they are doing (ie, not bothering to attack the green gate NPCs when they break through), the kurzicks have it easier.

Won FA on first go post update with no problems at all, however lost several times in a row at JQ earlier on today lol.

Just an observation. Take it as you will.

Kurzick side has always had more players though Pwny even before the update. More people just like the kurzick look as well as the faction gains. Although I knew I could win more on the luxon side I just enjoyed the victories more when we did win on the Kurzick side when it really was imbalanced and in favor or the luxons 80/20.

It's really very simple to define FA as PVP since you can't use any PVE ONLY skills during this MATCH. Plus PVP stands for Player vs Player and that is also what this match entails ALTHOUGH there are also NPC's to help the players during the match just like in GVG there are NPC's to help the players during the match as well and in AB and JQ there are NPC's to help the players during the match. SO, next you are going to say GVG isn't PVP as well? hahaha thas why people who think like you and that other noob are noobs. You have no clue what PVP is nor what the definition of it is and how many places it works in Guild Wars. RA is pvp, TA is pvp, HA is pvp, HB is pvp, FA is pvp, JQ is pvp and GVG is pvp. The only difference is that RA, FA and JQ are non-organized pvp and just uses random players to make up PVP teams.

It's not our fault Drizzt Do'Urden lives in the Echovald Forest. Blame it on the Dark Elves that follow him. That and the WWF living there to protect the endangered Black Moa.

If a person chose to run a suboptimal smiter build or they would have more to fear from their teammates than their enemies. Some other combinations like Me/E Water Mesmer and R/W thumper don't quite do what their classes were designed for but they would still count towards their class cap. Most class roles can be lumped into either damage, countermeasures or healing. As much fun as it was to get 5 Domination Mesmers, it was rather gimmicky and probably wasn't enjoyable for the Kurzick. In pretty much all of PvP, if there's too much of a certain role it tends to be a gimmick (bloodspike) and unable to adapt to situations appropriately due to its narrow focus. This is why there is the use of 'balanced' teams in pretty much every team based arena.

PvP Primer: Fort Aspenwood Cross-Training (Official Page)

A Factions PvP arena, Fort Aspenwood offers new players an excellent chance to break into competitive play....



Player vs. Player (Official Page)

Player-versus-player, or "PvP," is the core of the competition that puts the "competitive" in the CORPG. There are many varieties of PvP competition. You will sometimes find yourself on a randomly selected team, though more often you will choose your group before entering a PvP contest. Your objective might be as simple as eliminating the other team or it could be far more complex. PvP matches may also involve dangerous computer-controlled enemies on the map, so be watchful.


Player versus Player (Official Wiki)

Player versus player is a style of gameplay that pits players against each other in a competition. The objective in PvP is to defeat the opposing team(s), which can be accomplished by one of several different means, depending on the PvP format. This could be capturing control points, defeating the opponent's Guild Lord, scoring a higher kill count or just regular deathmatch.


- end of discussion :P -

Yeah, but except for Monks (Luxons) and Elementalists/Mesmers (Kurzicks), you can ignore all players and just hit or heal NPCs. Kill Monks as Luxon to prevent them from healing, or kill Elementalists/Mesmers to prevent from damaging NPCs.

And that's it. It should be renamed to Players versus Non-Player-Characters.

You may ignore all the other players but will they ignore you? The AI will ignore you if you don't aggro and will behave predictably if you do aggro. What makes another player dangerous is their ability as humans to adapt regardless of how retarded they may initially seem to be. Other tactics than what you suggest include snaring, knockdowns, shutdown and positioning. A human player using these in the right places at the right times can be multiple times more dangerous than an npc (ie snaring as a Kurzick runs past the Luxon gangbang squad).

Who gives a shit whether people call it PvE or PvP? Shut the hell up about retarded semantics, the point of the thread is about kurzick vs luxon balance. Mods should delete the dumbass arguments over that subject so the thread returns to its purpose.

The match is set up with 8 players + NPC's vs 8 players + NPC's. If the luxon side's npcs can be rendered completely meaningless throughout the match with no/almost no effort by the kurzicks, YES ITS UNBALANCED.

Luxon NPC's are superior only in the context of each side going AFK. A warrior has superior DPS against someone who stands still infront of him. He sure doesn't have superior DPS when crippled or blinded though does he? Turtles can be made useless even easier: have someone stand just about ANYWHERE in the middle part of the kurzick base, or failing that just kill the turlte and let 1 or 2 warriors run around aimlessly till the match ends.

Whoever said the juggernaut was good anyway? Has anyone in guild wars EVER said that? I don't think it ever does any damage in a match because its so slow. The rest of the kurzick NPC's, on the other hand, will insta rape any melee trying to attack them and deliver a sizeable DPS to other classes. Put any normal WoH monk and 1 damage oriented ally defending them and they can hold off and kill teams twice their size.

No, NPC AI can't be perfect. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be much better. Make the turtle groups automatically move forward to fire at the nearest kurzick NPC's. Problem solved. Unless you thought the job of the turtle was just to provide comic relief for luxons when melee tries to fight them?

Well, to do so they have to expend an inordinate amount of effort (half the time it isn't even possible to get to the people ontop of the hills), they have to divert themselves from killing kurzick NPC's (which means that they have to give up their own damage just for the chance of the turtle moving up and getting some), and even if they do kill the player have fun killing them again 5 seconds later when they respawn.

At least this shouldn't be a problem. By next week everyone wanting faction will know vanquishing is 5x faster then the fastest FA. Or maybe it will get worse because FA will only be home to people too unskilled to vanquish...

It's seriously funny how much more crowded the Kurzick side is. And don't tell it's because the Kurzick side is more "appealing" because that's just bull - back in the day when there were bugs which made 2x luxon warriors spawn with a turtle, the luxon side was way more crowded. Some people play for whoever their alliance is with, but some just hop to whichever side they think wins more. And judging from my personal experience lately, it's Kurzick.

Maybe it's because good players are playing FA more, dunno. Or just my awful luck with teams. But there's definately less defy pain wammos and A/E's with Meteor shower, and more healers and interrupt rangers and mesmers. I'm not complaining if the average level of players in FA rises, but I wish it would rise in my teams too!

Yes, please. Although they are mimicking the basic player behaviour perfectly by going into 1vs1 mode with anyone who damages them.

Todays Report on Luxon FA!


Battle #1

DEFEAT!

1 leecher


Battle #2

DEFEAT!

1 leecher
1 non-loader
1 rage-quitter afterwards (cant blame him)


Battle #3

DEFEAT!

Kurzicks had 2 monks. Need I say more?
My team was good, but they had 2 monks. You get the point. We killed everyone except Gunther.

Oh, and seems like FA Kurzick side now starts attracting 12 yr old idiots who like to take overpowered side and spam "ownt" during the battle. Seriously, I want to IRL torture them. Some of us are playing on underpowered side on purpose, only to get this kind of treatment from cowards? Grow up.


Battle #4

DEFEAT!

My team was ok, need I say they had a bonder etc? There simply wasn't enough time.
Both this and last game I think I would have won with old timer.


Battle #5

DEFEAT

Kurzicks had monks.
Had same leecher again, but even worse than that I had a team who thought the goal here is to PvP and kill as many players as possible, as many times as possible. I just couldn't explain to them these players will ressurect very fast.


Note: Even with Dishonorable hex, it pays off to leech in Fort Aspenwood with new rewards. Put your character to leech. Grab a sandwitch and watch a movie or something. Put it to leech again. Go do some PvE. Leech again.. basically, even if you're blocked for 3 hours, that's still 3-4 times one can leech with no negative consequences so to speak.
Does leecher still get faction? It does right?

Note#2: Did I mention that a lot of team members dont report leechers? So they simply come back.

---



Conclusion:

Yes yes, I agree. If Kurzicks have a single monk, the chance to win drops to 50%. If Kurzicks have 2 monks, the chance to win drops to 5%. The rest of the team can be pretty much whatever.


Map balance is a joke, it's no wonder that there are leechers on Luxon side. It's the only thing you can do.


My next task!

I will play on Kurzick side UNTIL I LOSE

Never mind that.

Lost 1st game on kurzick side; we had quitter.
Lost 2nd game on Kurzick side. We had no monk, and my team did not do absolutely anything. They didnt interrupt/stop turtles, didn't kill em, didnt kill enemy players, didn't run amber. Heck I've no idea what they did. Luxon team on the other hand was good and had 2 players with anti-enchant removal that I managed to notice.


Ok so it can be won on luxon side : > if kurzicks have no monk or it's 7v8 battle.

I'm liking the reports, quite entertaining, at least when Jade Quarry sucks up more time and patience than it should.

What I've noticed is that switching sides on a win-lose streak often has little effect. You usually end up playing against the teams with no leechers, decent players, and at least a monk or two, while you get all the headless Assassins dashing about that fold like paper underneath anti-melee.

My best experience with the Kurzicks was having an Avatar of Balthazar dervish that did absolutely no meaningful damage what-so-ever, a Mesmer specced with about 5 domination interrupts, including Power Block, and Diversion, and finally a few damage rangers(this was pre-nerf of Expert's Dexterity, but it doesn't matter much). The Dervish thought he was making all the kills on the targets taking heavy shut-down and damage, poor guy.

With two teams who understand the win conditions and have even the slightest inkling of how to go about it, FA has always favored the Kurzicks. The turtles are easily distractable and monks protecting the NPC's through the gates can buy more than ample time to run amber, even against a Luxon team with enchant stripping that's focused on NPC killing. It was that way even with the longer timer.

For clueless teams, FA used to favor the Luxons, heavily. That's changed. The map has been rebalanced around the clueless. Assuming the Luxons have such bad builds and coordination that the NPC's pose a problem for them, and assuming the Kurzicks take no steps to run amber or keep the NPC's alive, the timer ends just about the same time the Luxons should arrive at Gunther. That works fine in a clueless vs. clueless match; the problem comes when you start to add a few people to the Kurzick side who know what they're doing, and the match becomes hopelessly lopsided.

I've found that when I run hammer warrior, we end up losing because i'm pretty much the only person I've found running amber. Maybe one or two more here or there. Always a leecher.

Switched to ranger and plinking turtles from the walls...went so much better. Maybe amber was being run more often too....but not likely as it was all the same players pretty much. One ranger running side to side stalling the turtles makes a big difference.

It was brutal weapon/glass arrows spiking too, so I was able to kill a turtle single handedly with a couple volleys. Add a monk to keep me protected from their eles/necros/mesmers and i can hold a side indefinitely.

People run amber when you guys play? I'm so jealous

Here's how a typical Kurz match goes for me (been playing an N/Rt healer lately for gimmicky lulz and easy faction).

Match starts!
Some guy appears to be AFK, starts moving when the timer hits 0.
We split in two different directions, usually 6 toward the purple gate, 2 to orange.
We grab the mine, half the team dies outside because they think running into the middle of a Luxon mob + Siege Turtle + Luxon warriors is a decent plan of attack.
The other half makes it back inside with amber.
Everyone but one or two people gives amber to Gunther instead of fixing the now broken gates.
All hell breaks loose.
The Luxons recapture the mine(s).
No one runs amber anymore.

From hereon out, there are two possibilities. Either we have another monk/healer type besides me and we win or the Luxons rofflestomp us easily because no one bothers with gate-fixing anymore and are instead just trying to kill terra-tanks and Defy Pain warriors.

I must say, though, that it is easier for the Kurzicks to win now. But I also thought it was easier for the Luxons to win before the update, because all they had to do was kill stuff, whereas the Luxons had to cap amber mines, fix gates when they went down and protect NPCs, all at the same time.

Also, I really want the Juggernaut to show up in the Party Window like Gunther and his buddies. Plz, Anet? ;_;

Check your TrendMicro anti-virus software. Something may be outdated or unprotected there.

I built a chant removing touch ranger just to prove it can be done on luxon side IF YOU KNOW THE MECHANICS OF THE GAME and the NPC's. I have the siege shot of the turtle timed and just as its getting off it's shot I disenchant the npc that the monk THINKS he has bonded good....rend enchantments is an excellent disenchanter for those bonders. Then BANG down goes NPC and down goes gate....rince and repeat all the way through the green gate npc's. It's even easier when there's two turtles on that gate to bomb just as I disenchant that elementalist the monk THINKS he has bonded good. hahaha
Then being smart instead of attacking Gunther I take on that monk who can't keep himself healed and gunther at same time....one of them must die. It's an excellent touch ranger/disenchanter build, but ,most nubs can't figure out stuff like that to win on the luxon side. Like I said most of them are nubs/noobs anyways. They only want to whine and QQ instead of think.

All these arguments based on mechanics (luxon NPCs are baed, kurz monks have it too easy etc.) are completely absurd.

Before the skew was heavily in luxon favor, now it's argued to be Kurzicks. But what's changed inbetween? Not NPCs, not skills, not map layout, but simply maximum match time. Previously the luxons could always overcome whatever supposed imbalances with enough time consistently. Loss of time now just makes that harder to do.

If any more balancing needs to be done, it's adjusting the match time. (and scaling rewards appropriately.)