Fort Aspenwood no longer balanced.

Play Kurz. and tell me how many bugs you can exploit then, since you are obviously "not-dumb" unlike me.

No one said casters are meant to support, some are, like monks/mesmers/nercromancers, but some are also offensive/defensive characters, like eles, who can play defensively and offensively.

Surely you have never played much FA? Cause these eles can do ALOT of damages, even against rangers. And no, on average the Kurz side has 2ish monks, not too big a number if you ask me.

Please please please read my entire post before you post. I did admit Cripshot can be played offensively by snaring targets, they are just made to be supportive.

Either you're implying that supportive usage is only defensive use or you're posting this part uselessly. The same thing can be said about what you said in the other post;

In the case of this being true, I'm assuming that Apply Poison is nothing further than a cover condition.

Still though, partly my fault for not reading the entire thing. Worth revising over it and correcting, though if you ask me.

I've got to agree with Upier about the rangers, sitting between the 2 gates, by using an ele to damage them, the ranger should be able to outlast the ele's damage, through a combination of self healing and kiting out of the eles range, whilst at the same time stalling the turtle. The ele, who should be concentrating either on the gate npc or the monk healing it from behind is now rendered pretty much useless and the turtle is rendered useless. It would be a much better idea to get a physical of some sort round through the gates to deal with the ranger, unfortunately by the time this happens its probably too late.

Its easier to win as a kurzick as no team co-ordination on builds is required to be effective and no teamplay co-ordination is required other than dont open the gate cos the monks sat behind it healing the npc.

As kurzick you have 2 tactics to win, either stall the luxons for long enough through healing the npcs or stall them long enough by running amber and repairing gates.

Luxons have only one option to win, go on the offensive. It isnt just enough to bring lots of damage tho, you need counter builds to whatever the kurzick are running and no single build can counter both a monk and a ranger effectively, the two most common, and problematic pkurzick professions.

This then isnt helped, as Upier says by the fact the Kurzicks have the abvatage of natural obsticles favouring them, the gates. These gates immediately mean that any builds which would have been useful, but require line of sight, are now useless.

The shortened time is I think the major problem here, the shorter time reduces the need for the kurzicks to run amber and gives less window of opportunity for the luxons.

All said tho, will i still earn more faction as a luxon as I wont have to sit around for 10 mins waiting for a game?

Well with today's patch, a single ranger (or mesmer, more likely) isn't always going to be able to stall the turtle. With a 3 s activation on Siege Turtle Attack, the Ranger can barely get two interrupts in with the aftercast, unless you are more pro than the average FA player and can count to ten. That means that a mesmer with Psychic Instability is going to get gibbed half the time at least - sometimes the interrupt works first shot, sometimes not. That's not something I want deciding games (because it can), but stalled Luxon Warrior bugs have yet to be fixed.

I would say that FA now demands some competency from Kurzicks - maybe still not as much as on Luxon, but it's better than the past few weeks.

...

So I take this was fixed:
If things are balanced - a character that is able to do all those things will not excel at any of those things.
So on one side you have a character that is a GOD at supporting and you expect a character that is decent at damage to beat that?

I think I earned more then 1,5 mil Luxon/Kurzick faction just by playing Aspy. And that's earned faction - not donated. I use to play it for HOURS each day because I loved it so much! So I think that kinda negates your theory on how much time I spent there ...
If the Kurzicks do not use monks - then they are stupid. And if you are playing stupid - you should not be allowed to win!
If the eles are taking down the rangers - which isn't something that happens in seconds - they aren't taking down the NPCs.
With the timer being set at 5 minutes - that's not the kind of a distraction you want to have.




Regarding the update:
Will need to play around a bit - but:
1. Mark Of Insecurity sound GODLY! Especially since it's in the same line as Mark Of Death. Drop in on Gunther and watch thing explode.
2. What scares the pants of me though, is the new Peace. Considering the bias against real damage dealers on the Luxon side - hexes and conditions are among THE things to do. And Peace is just going to negate their existence there.

You seem to have "being the best option" confused with "dealing the most dps in a vacuum". Raw weapon-based damage isn't always the answer. Well of the profane, for example, makes taking down gates ridiculously easy (add any damage component and you're basically through). Caster pressure on the monk works as well (he can't walk out of range without also walking out of range of the npc). Even something as simple as a diversion can create enough of a window of opportunity. There are lots of ways to peel an orange. What your argument basically boils down to is that because weapon users can't walk through walls, FA is imbalanced. Personally I don't see that as an imbalance at all, it's simply a case of kurzicks being smart. Knowing that they probably will be, you should be too, and adapt accordingly. Yes, in that way the map is slightly biased against weapon users, but all maps in GW are biased toward/against certain classes/skills to some degree, it is by no means unique to FA.

FA isn't imbalanced because of a lack of options, but because not enough players bring the right options to the table.


- Mana

Fix the Turtle Siege ignoring Line of Sight, obstacles and height and it'll be fine.

Right now it's just lame ZOMGIMASHOOTINGMAHLAZOR thingie.

I actually won two matches in Aspenwood today, which is as much as I did after the november update combined (with about ~20 tries total). Have you guys playing on the Kz side noticed any change yet in the matches or the playerbase?

Ummmmmm......so NOT ONE soul on the Lux. side is brave enough to attack the "turtle-attacker/the healer?" nice...But remember, you said you can win on the Kurz. side just by exploiting the bugs, one bug don't speak much imo, bring 2 or 3 more up, then you have the higher grounds.


Trust me, there are times where not even a healing Rit is present, and winning is still achieveable. How surprising eh?

It takes less than 30seconds(you can time it if you want) for a SH ele to kill a ranger solo, and enough time for the team to take down the orange/purple(cant remember which) gate if one other burning ele stays on that ranger.

Actually you are wrong, if you are focusing on killing individual kurzicks then you are missing the point of the luxon's role in aspenwood.

I managed to get alot of luxons to ignore Master Architect even though he was right infront of them, so that they can chase me all around the place.

And what happens when the time is up? I win. It doesn't matter how many kurzicks you kill, you still lose, because you fell for it. Just that in aspenwood a smart kurzick doesnt necessarily play to win 1 vs 1 battles, their goal should be to distract luxons from the npcs and STALL FOR TIME even if that means running around while in open fire rather than hiding behind shelter, sometimes.

Besides, unless you have help, on a pure 1 on 1 basis, an Ele is hardly interesting to a capable Ranger with a recurve bow, interrupts, and degen. The siege turtle maybe difficult to interrupt now, but the Ele is not.

Who ever thinks that Fort Aspenwood will ever have a sense of balance is a pretty good troll.

There's no other arena that I know of, save for certain AB maps, which starts teams off on uneven levels. If you want to talk about balance between sides there, you're kidding yourself. AB is at least excused by how the system works, but FA is just a balance joke.

Were you even reading what I was talking about? I was saying how easy it is for a SH ele to kill a ranger when he is focused on him.

Yeah.....run around in open fire and waste 3 seconds for the Luxon, you have done your team a GREAT contribution in stalling, congratulations. And yes, the whole point of FA for the Lux. is to rush in, as fast as possible without killing any of the Kurz. players but only npcs and then try to attack the Master Architect. Right..........The thing is, it really isn't hard to kill off the npcs with 4 hammer warriors and 1 seige attacker helping. And the players can be more of a pain alive than dead. (If you don't believe me, try this: get a group willing to only attack Kuz. npcs but not players and see how far you get)

Of course kurzs are not going to make things easy for luxs. If you focus on the npcs, we will turn and attack you instead. But once I get your group's attention, a solo kurz can delay even a group of 3 to 4 luxs (I am very good at annoying luxons from behind and drawing attention) and that is the whole point.

Death has no meaning for a kurz in aspenwood because I resurrect almost next to Master architect with max health and energy, no conditions and no hexes. Dying often gets me closer to the action faster so who cares? Get up and slow down their advance again and again so that my buddies can repair the gates.

If you think it is a 1 vs 1 fight, you are dead wrong. I love to draw out wammos or wammo-like luxons who would enjoy 1 vs 1 with me.

Well Lux. usually comes in groups of 6ish, they after all, only needs two groups(2 gates) plus the turtle and the 4 wars, the number is well above 4. Besides, not every build is good for stalling and not everyone wants to play to stall. So just because you can stall several Lux. doesn't mean the rest of your team can. Some classes are better in close range fighting others, long range.

On your comment of dying have no effect. Bear in mind that it doesn't recharge any skills you use. So for an ele (as an example) who casted Fire Attune. 10 secs ago and got killed, he still got that 35sec time that he needs to wait. So its not necessarily of having no effect plus, your number is down too so that gives Lux. an edge on the battefield.

I never thought FA is 1v1, and playing wamo for Lux is simply stupid, your mission as Lux. is to kill, not stall, that's reserved for Kurz, sorry. But the problem with team play is that there is a billion ways to win and a billion ways to lose. So its pointless to argue whos right or whos wrong, I lost a match with 4 monks, but 4 games later I won a land-slide match without any monks.(the Lux. were forced to rez and their base). Pce out.

Read again what I said.
Find me the use of "just by exploiting bugs".

Why would that be surprising? You won because the other team was shit.
If you are running offense on the Kurzick side - then you are relying on luck to throw you a bone.
Run 8 monks and run 8 fully offensive characters and see which party will be more suitable to win on the Kurzick side.

So that's - 2 eles on 1 ranger?
And what happens when the ranger dies?

And what are the 7 other people on the ranger's team doing?


Aspy should be looked at what happens when the better (or best even!) options are ran. There is no point in looking what happens when people run shit.


Same thing really.
I think I won more matches yesterday then in the whole time after the last months change. Still, I need to see what will happen once the Kurzicks stop testing the new skills and rather return to things that work.


So what would happen if Kurzicks would ALSO start bringing (even more then they already are) the right options?
Are you seriously suggesting that once you start getting full defensive teams (with some corpse exploits) on the Kurzick side - the Luxon stand a chance in getting to Gunthy?



The things are done right on both sides - then the Kurzicks have the advantage. The options that do things right are much stronger on the Kurzick side.
When things go slightly bad (which is pretty much the majority of battles there) - the Kurzicks still have the advantage because doing things right is easier on their side. The optimal team for the Luxon side is a balanced team - and when you have a side that is supposed to be offensive - some people need to play against what is the goal there and go defensive. And here comes getting screwed by the random factor into play.
And when things completely bad - then you have Luxons having the advantage, because you'll end up with 1v1s and the turtles will go in and trash the thing.
But once the rewards were raised - you started seeing more and more people who know how to do things right. And that pretty much removes the chance of things going completely bad.

Don't really feel like reading the whole thread, but I think the fact that rangers can clear both Amber mines from inside their fortress is worth a fix.

There is nowhere near the room for improvement on the kurzick side that there is for luxons. Given the random draw, the kurzick side has already reached most of its potential. "Full defensive teams" (ie monks all over) isn't the average outcome, it happens only on relatively few occasions, and mostly due to luck of the draw.

No.

Yes! And that's the difference in a nutshell. It's not because their options are stronger, it's because they need fewer of them. But of course, with the recent update, that has all changed.


- Mana

And why is that?
Because Kurzicks REFUSE to use the best option (not always of course!).
If you run a monk, you KNOW that you are choosing the godly option. If you run offense you are playing the lottery in hopes of getting a good team!
Do you want to win?
Well then, stop pissing against the wind!

Wait, one side has a offensive and the other one a defensive objective.
The best options for offense do not work for the Luxon side and the best option for defense work for the Kurzicks.
So when you do things right, how can the Kurzick options not be superior?

I explained above why I feel that their options are stronger.
Their GOOD options!
And like you said - they also have fewer options to fill which makes it even easier due to the random factor!

How can you consider that balanced?

Exactly. A random format favors the side with least components required.

Simply put, I don't agree that pure dps is necessarily the best option for disabling a monk. But it's a moot point anyway, since with the recent patch your "best option" should now be a lot more viable. Not to mention that we're not getting anywhere on that particular issue anyway, so I suggest we simply agree to disagree.

I don't. Read my previous posts.


- Mana

The problem is who is on the receiving end of the stick.
For instance - if you have 8 monks behind the green gate, you can get 6 of the healing/protting the ele and you get 2 of them healing the monks! One Diversion won't do ANYTHING - even if one of the monks casts though it!
What you want is to put such pressure on the monks there that they need to start taking care of themselves rather then just focusing on the NPCs. Because that opens up windows when the NPC is vulnerable. And there is no way that this can happen if the best options are pretty much disabled because of the way the map is designed.
Still, if we start seeing 8-monk teams - battles will be over before they start. Because those guys just need to stay alive for 5 minutes and without modifying Kurzick objectives that would FORCE them into offense to actually win (thus forcing the Kurzicks to spec into more roles!) - there is just no way that they can fail.

Just a quick question since I don't quite understand.
Does that means if Luxons bring the right options - given the random format - the game is balanced? Or do you feel that the game is always imbalanced?

I never cared for Ft Aspenwood. Jade Quarry I like - but it never had players so I gave up going. (Plus, with 10 characters to work on it is not my priority.)

The last time I was in FA the Luxons waltzed in and killed both gates immediately. I didnt really see a point. My normal experience at FA is that the Luxons win about 60-75% of the time, no matter which side I am on.

So you are saying the eles on the Lux. side can never switch to a new target once their old one is dead? No wonder their teams are shitty. And as for the other 7, well they can run amber, attack Lux., heal defenders etc. As for the healer on the ranger, try to stay in a SH ele's aoe spells and see how happy the monk is with his energy after the spells end.

When you have 2 people attacking the ranger - that's two people that aren't killing NPCs. Then you kill the ranger - keep in mind this is going to take twice as long IF the ranger stays in the AoE AND receives no healing - then the healers do their magic and try to keep the ele NPC alive and then the ranger is back.
Which considering the ele just wasted his best spells killing the ranger - won't really be hard.





I thought that the situation got better - but after the last few matches ... it's insane. 4ish monks/ritus and you can get to Gunther (because of the split) - but then things just go mad. If the Luxons don't have healers, they die from the pressure from the rest of the Kurzicks, and if they do - they start to lack in the damage output.
The Kuzicks SERIOUSLY need an active objective - otherwise this is just unplayable.

Well... I don't really have much to say on that one. It's a purely theoretical argument. It sounds great on paper, but eight monk teams just don't happen. The few times that they do, it's a pure fluke. Random probability will screw you over every so often, and when that happens there's nothing you can do about it. Of course a single diversion won't do anything against eight monks. Nor will anything else. But in most games by far, disruption is a wonderful tool for dealing with the one or two monks that are typically there (and often far better than pure dps).

It means that if luxons would bring the right components to the table, they'd dramatically increase their chances of winning. That's part of the reason why FA is imbalanced, and has nothing to do with the map itself.

But the real reason why FA is imbalanced is because there are too many components required to win as a luxon. Look at what's required on the kurzick side. Monks and ... well, monks. That's it. Get a couple of good monks and you're basically set. All the rest of the team has to do is offer up some random damage components, which can basically be anything as long as it deals damage, so they can get in the way of turtles and stall for time. Some games even turn into kurzicks utilizing a lemming-like strategy, blindly throwing themselves at the enemy, just to give the turtles another target than Gunther.

The luxons, on the other hand, need loads of components. Enchant removal is just one, you also need constant healing for turtles. Either guardian or weapon of warding is a must to prevent interrupts. You probably also need some monk hate to get through gates and to prevent chainhealing of Gunther, and then of course you need a healthy amount of damage. Now, it used to be that all of this didn't matter as much because luxons had more time to accomplish their goal. Even with an uncoordinated effort, which is what most random teams deliver, you could literally turtle your way to the finish line. You had the time for it. Nowadays, however, with the reduced timer length, it matters a whole lot more if you have the right components at the right time. But random probability inherently dictates that in most games, you won't have all those components. The options are there, you simply need too many of them to succeed in the time frame that you are given. There are too many problems to work around.

But like I said, the recent update changed a lot of this - interestingly enough by reducing the amount of components required on the luxon side. Turtles now have enchant removal. That's one less thing you need out of your own pool of 64 skills. They're also no longer as vulnerable to interrupts, which reduces the need to bring (and constantly maintain) blocking skills on them. And so far, from what I've seen, luxon wins are not so rare anymore. But time will tell.


- Mana

One thing to note is that the turtles only remove 1 enchant per Siege Attack so I'd still bring rend and/or Well of the Profane or Mark of Insecurity.

Just a thought here...
10 minute timer made it where luxons won more than kurzicks.
The current 5 minute time is the opposite.
What if they tried some 7-8 minute timer?

Like what? attack the invading Lux.? Then its no different from RA, except you get a bigger map

I think the current timer is 12-15 minutes, down from 17-20. 5 minute games would be a 100% Kurzick rout. They reduced the timer by 5 minutes, not to 5 minutes.

I still don't like the "difficult to interrupt" thing, and having siege turtle attack remove enchants screws over Kurzick player elementalists, but as long as you can still bug warriors it's a wash.

It means that the ranger will have to be on their toes instead of thinking "Interrupt, oh blind<mending touch, time for Dshot!". It means things like a Bsurge ele will make a noticeable difference when defending the turtle. I used to bring Dshot on my monk and would carry one hard interrupt on my mesmer. Now I'm thinking PD is probably the best bet for interrupting the turtles hehe. But if the turtle shot truly does ignore line of sight I will start playing Luxon again hehehe.

They should have made the siege turtles attacks remove 1 enchantment, but they should have left the turtle's interruptable.




peace prot spirit.

Now FA is a bunch of bad players who think they can run Ranger and interrupt turtles, or spam Barrage, and a bunch of bad players who run random crap and make us lose...

Well, they were bad before it was just that they had such a useful and easy spot to fill. Now they have to anticipate and use their skills in an intelligent manner instead of spamming interrupts and Barrange/IA. If they are to turn into better players, it is for their own good that they have to adhere to a higher standard in order to make a tangible difference.

Well with like 100000billion npcs hanging around skills don't make too much a difference if you ask me. Especially on rangers, I mean, how hard is it to hit someone with a flaming arrow? Or to interrupt someone casting a 3sec spell?

But I gotta say, FA is now more exciting, since the games are varying more. I had a game where I was the only monk with my energy bar around 10 energy, God's Vengence was at 98% completed and Master Arch. had like 200ish hp left.(1/2 of 1/5th of his health I guess) We won with Master Arch having less 100hp. I was going "oh crap, we are so close yet we're gonna lose" the whole time, never thinking that we can win. Yet when we won, I was like "fk yes!". It really is one of the moments that's worth reliving in a game like GW.

Like I said, I raged after starting to get 4ish monk/ritu teams.
And yes, disruption helps nicely, but in this format it's just not enough.
You Diversion one guy, possibly Shame the second, PLeak the third AND throw WoR on some others AND Rend Gunthy - but what happens next?
Nothing - because you can't yell over Vent to spike him down.
And then you can't keep this kind of disruption up constantly. You'll be able to throw that out, what, every 20-30 secs?
And if the monks run on empty - they just run into the middle of the battlefield and get killed, spawning pretty much in the exact same spot with full energy!

Yes, bringing better options wouldn't hurt. The problem is that BOTH sides would benefit from that advice.
And as was said - if you see the Kurzicks playing better - there is simply not going to be anything you can do about it.
The only way that playing batter would improve the state of Aspy is, if the Luxons would improve and the Kurzicks wouldn't.
(As was said before, I agree with the fact that one of the issues is having too many roles that the Luxons need to fill, so no need to quote that - yet I REALLY hope that if anyone, that can make a difference is reading this, they'll re-read it!)

This I disagree fully with.
Enchantment removal is still a must. Even if both turtles survive - and they keep firing and removing enches - Gunthy isn't always the guy that you want the ench to be removed from. With the amount of Veils, Minds/Souls, Bonds, SoAs, Guardians, .... being thrown around (HOPEFULLY Peace won't show up) - you need to be able to remove those things also. I run Drain and Rend on my mesmer - and there is no way he can keep up with the amount of enchanting going on.
Ench removal still is an ABSOLUTE must - and if we see more Kurzick players playing better - it's going to be even MORE important. Ench removal is the Rez Siggy of FA.

Time sure flies when you are getting kicked in the nuts!
It never hit me that it really is THAT long.

Well, keep in mind you rez automatically.
At full HP.
And full energy.
And the objective of ONE side is to wait it out.
Sounds ... fair?



Some things I'd suggest looking into:
1. forcing Kurzicks to abandon their posts (or at least force a split) by giving them an active objective - otherwise the game ends in a draw if the Kurzicks do not achieve the active objective, yet they manage to keep Gunthy alive when the Vengeance completes. This would also enable the Kurzicks to WIN the match without having to wait it out. (Although something new would need to be implemented - because now the only options are taking down the mines, command posts and that's going to be too easy, because you can send a few Kurzick guys to take down those things and that then forces the Luxons to split (to take them back) which means that there is even less chance to them getting into the castle.)
2. some sort of DP - probably not the normal one of having less HP and energy - but something in the lines of coming back as if you were rezzed by a Rez Siggy (full HP, 25% energy)
3. if the Luxons control mines, being able to rez in the castle
4. sending in turtles automatically (and fixing the AI!)
(Keep in mind that just ONE of those suggestions won't matter in the slightest with heavy(or full)-support Kurzick teams.)

After turtle's buff, my observations were that FA is pretty balanced.

Went with Luxon BEFORE turtle's buff cause it was more challenging and had around 60% wins.

After turtle buffs, decided to go with around 10 matches on each side:
When on Lux: 9 out of 10 wins
When on Kurz: 9 out of 10 wins

It's not the map, it's the players. The side with least leechers, bots and poor players wins.

Can only speak for myself, but from what I've seen, most of my games have an average of about two monks/rits on either side.

Been over this already. There is (or was?) more room for improvement on the luxon side.


- Mana

Each Kurzick player decides if the Luxons will have a chance to win when he enters the game. If the Kurzick player enters on a monk/resto rit - he isn't giving the Luxons a chance to win.
If you have 2 monks - that means you are playing with 6 people who rely on luck to win.


Even the best Luxon player will need to rely on luck to get the team they want.
The best Kurzick players won't. Because they will all be playing monks/resto rits.
Getting better is a necessity. The game should be balanced for the best players. And currently it's balanced in favor of Kurzick resto rits/monks. If you were to get 8 of those guys - even if the Luxons play better - it's going to be impossible to win.

Just because you have people playing like shit most of the time, that can not be used as an excuse to not fix the other issues!




On the subject of giving a Kurzicks an active objective: it hit me that running amber is a VERY decent option. But to make it viable - the Kurzicks NEED to be forced to run it! That could be achieved if Vengeance would only rise if amber was handed to the NPCs (of course then the amount by which the Vengeance rises when handing amber would need to be tweaked!). That means that Kurzicks can NOT win unless they run amber. And to run amber they'd need to open doors - which means that Luxons can get in (doors could then also be tweaked by making them stay open for a certain time each time they are opened - so that you don't get people opening and closing them to fast for the Luxons to be able to react).
And if the Kurzicks need to run amber - this imposes the luck-factor on the Kurzick side. The same thing that currently punishes the Luxon side.

Upier, are you sure you're not this guy? Keep note we only had 1 resto rit, no1 else had any healing apart from maybe minor self-heals. That's why we wiped them so fast too.

8 monks and resto rits for Kurzicks almost guarantees win for Lux, of course unless they're completely incompetent.
You underestimate what damage turtle can do if it's not taken care of. Also, no one will be able to run amber, which once again, means success for Lux.

Nah, I only yell at my team-mates!
Much more productive!


The only chance you have is to Rend and spike at the same time that the turtle attacks. And HOPE that none of the 8 guys behind the door casts anything in that moment. And that they are so dumb that they can't count to ten and then just blindly hit WoH in anticipation of the Turtles hit.

wow just wow. like aspenwood isnt stacked against the kurzicks enuf, we have people wanting to add to the luxon advantage. ok lets list this.

-luxons start with mines under their control and respawn there as well.

-turtles are nigh impossible to interupt now and remove enchantments from everyone in the blast radius which is freaking huge.

-turtle teams come with wammos and mines are guarded by rangers that cripple runners. kurzicks get all squishy allies who arent anywhere near as effective at doing anything.

-the gatekeepers will literally run outside the fort all the way to the outer gates and get stuck. this happens every so often.

-turtle teams respawn very fast after elimination and have no penalty for death. i.e. they dont need amber to be restored....

-if luxons get too close to gunther none of the npcs will except amber rendering anyone holding the amber useless till luxons are forced out, if they are forced out.

this is just about it. i feel that if a luxon team is semi decent they should win every match. even with the lessened timer. now they have beefed turtles its pretty gg.

i feel that the interupting clause for turtles should be removed, and amber should be required to return the turtle teams. that might fix it up a bit.