EveryoneI know tells me to get a warrior over a dervish ..

fatelord

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2009

Saudi Arabia

P/W

18 Jan 2009 at 18:21 - 1

I like the idea of a scythe fighter ..but everyone i ask says warrior and assassins do better with the scythes and the dervishes are quite a fragile class ..

how true is this ...and how is the dervish in PVP and PVE?

joshuarodger

Unbanned

Join Date: Jan 2008

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] -- IGN: Swirly

Mo/

18 Jan 2009 at 18:35 - 2

get both in my opinion. derv avatars are amazing but warriors do have more survivability overall. you can always run a scythe warrior if you want or don't have enough open character slots.

Hanging Man

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Deep in the Shire

18 Jan 2009 at 19:05 - 3

Now this all my personal opinion of dervishes

But I love em, they are one of the few classes who i believe can survive alot of damage alone. Combining [skill]Vital Boon[/skill] and [skill] Mystic Regeneration [/skill] they can survive quite a big of degen and damage. [skill]Signet Of Pious light[/skill] used on [skill]Vital Boon[/skill] is also a nice healing technique

They have amazing damage capapbilities also. [skill]Wounding Strike[/skill][skill]reaper's Sweep[/skill] and... well thats all I really know lol

Wars and Sins do well with scythes only becuz of [skill]Warrior's Endurance[/skill] and [skill] Way of the Master [/skill]

but id say Dervs kick ass

warrior running

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2008

The Cape Is A Lie[Trim]

W/E

18 Jan 2009 at 19:18 - 4

Warriors are better for team play, they have more armour, ability to farm more, and get in more groups

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

18 Jan 2009 at 19:20 - 5

Dervishes in my opinion, are quite flexible in some areas where Warriors nor Assassins could not compare.

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

18 Jan 2009 at 19:30 - 6

It all comes down to one persons opinion over another.

Dervish Armour is very good but the warrior can get higher protection.
If the Warrior uses a shield that's even more protection.
Also as one of the original character classes they have a greater number of skills.
Dervishes coming as they did in the last game Nightfall have far fewer skills.

I like them over the warrior and if you Keep the Dervish Avatar skills up all the time you have a pretty mean fighter imo

Rhinala

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2008

Left of Hell

LAG

D/W

18 Jan 2009 at 20:37 - 7

In my opinion dervishes can be one of the most flexible and best survivability, [Avatar of Dwayna] can self heal and remove hex when you use a skill.
[Mystic Vigor] is a good self heal, combine it with [Avatar of Dwayna] you get great self healing add [Victorious Sweep] you have good damage and great self healing.
[Reapers Sweep] can dish great amount of damage and cause deep wounds.

defect

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2007

South Africa

[MYST]

18 Jan 2009 at 20:46 - 8

Personal preference.Both have their strong points and both have their weak points.In the end it all comes down to what you enjoy playing more. IMO, mess around with both for a bit then see which you like more

I for one can't stand playing dervish and I love my war way too much

Icy The Mage

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Canada

18 Jan 2009 at 22:05 - 9

One Skill determines everything. [Earth Shaker]

Konig Des Todes

Ooo, pretty flower

Join Date: Jan 2008

Citadel of the Decayed

The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore]

18 Jan 2009 at 23:13 - 10

In my opinion, Dervishes are much better than warriors. While warriors can go scythe, that fixes their elite.

Dervishes who want to take just spec into Earth Prayers, put on enchantments like [[Mystic Regeneration (PvE)] and [[Vital Boon], then spec into Mysticism and put on [[Avatar of Balthazar] (which would give 110 armor instead of 80 armor

) and [[Mystic Vigor]. Energy shouldn't be a problem as long as you let enchantments go down before renewing. [[Faithful Intervention] is also a good back-up healing.

If you want to tank, slap on 3 attack skills (I use [[Zealous Sweep], [[Radiant Scythe], and [[Victorious Sweep]), slap on Avatar of Balthazar, some health enchantments, and a healing spell. Add on Windwalker insignias for even more armor while you have enchantments up, and you got regeneration, high health, and about 125 armor if you meantain 3 enchantments and Avatar of Balthazar.

A healing spell isn't needed and for PvE you can slap on [[Eternal Aura].

However, if you want high damage, go Assassin. Warrior, imo, is a bad profession (only my opinion though) but do find it's uses.

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

19 Jan 2009 at 00:48 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

One Skill determines everything. [Earth Shaker] And another defies. [Fleeting Stability]

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

19 Jan 2009 at 00:54 - 12

Wow there is some really rotten info being given out in this thread. How about the people that don't really know wtf they are talking about refrain from giving bad advice.

Kerwyn Nasilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2007

WHERE DO YOU THINK

19 Jan 2009 at 01:01 - 13

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

19 Jan 2009 at 01:13 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Warriors have [earth shaker] [dragon slash], are powerful in general, have high armor and resilience and the ability to deal damage without relying on strippable enchantments. Are useful in PvP and High-end PvE.

Dervs CAN do somethings better than warriors under the right circumstances though.

IMO War>>>Derv Yawn... you almost know what your talking about.

Anyway, a standard warrior using a sword or a Hammer is going to be doing less damage then a Dervish with a scythe, but with the fairly recent buff to [warrior's endurance] warriors can use a scythe and spam attacks like there's no tomorrow.

Assassins have it pretty good with a scythe as well since you can use enchantments like [critical eye] and/or [way of the master] that increase your chance of a critical hit which means more damage, more energy, and the ability to maintain key enchantments like critical agility and critical defenses indefinitely during battle.

The only reason to make a dervish over those two classes would be because you think they look cooler or if you specifically wanna use an Avatar build. Sad but true.

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

19 Jan 2009 at 05:22 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

The only reason to make a dervish over those two classes would be because you think they look cooler or if you specifically wanna use an Avatar build. Sad but true. If you do scythe warrior, you're locked into an elite, which takes away from dps and whatever utility you may need.

The warrior is more commonly used in, and serves a distinct purpose in pvp.

However, Avatars themselves are more than enough reason to make a dervish your main. Avatars can serve as utility, healing, and extra dps all rolled into one. Of course, they are only truly effective in PvE where they can be kept up practically 100% of the time b/c of Eternal Aura.

As for sins, although the OP suggested the choice would only be between derv and war, they are quite effective in pve, but crit scythe builds rely mostly on enchants that can be stripped. Dervs rely somewhat on enchants too, but stripping an enchant off a derv can only result in more energy to fuel those attks.

My bet is you plan on alot of PvE, in which case I suggest Dervish, but keep the warrior/sin close by when you get bored of title grinding

Desert Rose

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

19 Jan 2009 at 08:26 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

The only reason to make a dervish over those two classes would be because you think they look cooler or if you specifically wanna use an Avatar build. Sad but true. This.

If you want to read more:
Are dervishes used/needed anywhere?

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

19 Jan 2009 at 10:45 - 17

avatars are a fun game mechanic

most warrier elites are basicaly
hit foe(s) in the face really hard!
dervs can transform into a god, THEN go hit foes in the face really hard

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

19 Jan 2009 at 11:08 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

avatars are a fun game mechanic

most warrier elites are basicaly
hit foe(s) in the face really hard!
dervs can transform into a god, THEN go hit foes in the face really hard Where is your AoE knockdown?

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

19 Jan 2009 at 12:47 - 19

thats fun too

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knockdown

could use your secondary...

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

19 Jan 2009 at 13:19 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

The only reason to make a dervish over those two classes would be because you think they look cooler or if you specifically wanna use an Avatar build. Sad but true. Another QFT.

GWBOWZ

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2009

MMA

R/Mo

19 Jan 2009 at 13:42 - 21

IMO, Dervish have a lot of characteristics Sins and Wars dont. Same with Sin and War.

It all comes to you; If you think Dervish look cool then use them. + They work nice in PvE and can be used quite effectively in PvP if you know how to. Avatars make Dervish more special. IMO, i dont like them, and even without them, Dervish can work at PvP. It all comes to your Build, Strategy and Game ExP.

Maybe War and Sin have Huge Power, but Dervish have good things too. Mysticism is an Example

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

19 Jan 2009 at 16:33 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWBOWZ View Post

IMO, Dervish have a lot of characteristics Sins and Wars dont. Same with Sin and War.

That doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

It all comes to you; If you think Dervish look cool then use them. + They work nice in PvE and can be used quite effectively in PvP if you know how to. Avatars make Dervish more special. IMO, i dont like them, and even without them, Dervish can work at PvP. It all comes to your Build, Strategy and Game ExP. Yes that's all part of it but it's also based on a couple other factors. The reason people are using scythe warriors is because they have higher natural armor and thus better survivability. [warrior's endurance] gives them insane e-management. So instead of making a Dervish you can just run a scythe warrior with infinite energy and higher armor.

Assassin's also have it better because their primary attribute, critical strikes lets them do more damage more often by having a much higher chance to critical attack, and also feeds them with energy at the same time. Not to mention they have one of the best IAS in the game with Critical agility which can be maintained indefinitely during battle.

Quote:

Maybe War and Sin have Huge Power, but Dervish have good things too. Mysticism is an Example Only thing it's really good for is if you're going to be using an Avatar.

Like I posted in the other thread (are dervishes used /needed anywhere?) I'm not trying to bash the Dervish as a character class...my dervish is my primary character and my favorite character, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant to the way this game works. The fact is if you wanna use a scythe you don't need to make a dervish you can use a warrior or a sin and be just as if not more effective then a Dervish primary.

GWBOWZ

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2009

MMA

R/Mo

19 Jan 2009 at 18:31 - 23

But everyone says Dervish isnt good for PvP..

I dont use avis, but the builds you helped me with seem to be worth a try (90% sure itll be good) even if i use a Dervish/War

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

19 Jan 2009 at 18:39 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Assassin's also have it better because their primary attribute, critical strikes lets them do more damage more often by having a much higher chance to critical attack, and also feeds them with energy at the same time. Not to mention they have one of the best IAS in the game with Critical agility which can be maintained indefinitely during battle. Not to mention the Assassin is effectively AL95.

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

19 Jan 2009 at 19:37 - 25

The comparison really isn't as lopsided as you guys suggest. W/D wastes the elite on Warrior's Endurance. A/D loses SY!, and frankly shouldn't be playing scythe to begin with.

Critical Agility is a wasted skill slot when playing for serious. Drunken Master gets you both movement and attack speed, and the armor bonus doesn't stack with SY!

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 Jan 2009 at 19:53 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

Critical Agility is actually pretty weak for some places in my opinion. Enchantment removal and consumables (Drunken Master). These pretty much take it out of the scene. Apart from that, though... let's just say I'd rather use a Warrior.

Warriors' Endurance + Flail / Frenzy / some form of good IAS will completely outclass it excluding areas with hurtful hexes (take a Derv if no PnH) and conditions(take a Sin if no PnH). (if you've not got any more important melee, PnH can handle it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWBOWZ

But everyone says Dervish isnt good for PvP.. They're awesome in PvP, they're just outclassed in firepower, and for a Dervish to be outclassed in power assumes some huge inbalance. Nothing should even touch the power of the WS template - I even think that should be nerfed still.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

19 Jan 2009 at 23:07 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

They're awesome in PvP, they're just outclassed in firepower, and for a Dervish to be outclassed in power assumes some huge inbalance. Nothing should even touch the power of the WS template - I even think that should be nerfed still. Far as I know the reason Dervishes don't show up in PvP is that they have nothing other than damage. So while they can still do over 100 damage a strike, they have no knockdowns, no interrupts, less reliable IAS / IMS and less armor. Wounding Strike is still strong, but with everything else about Dervishes nerfed there's little reason to play one anymore.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 Jan 2009 at 23:23 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Far as I know the reason Dervishes don't show up in PvP is that they have nothing other than damage. So while they can still do over 100 damage a strike, they have no knockdowns, no interrupts, less reliable IAS / IMS and less armor. Wounding Strike is still strong, but with everything else about Dervishes nerfed there's little reason to play one anymore. It's partly the nothing other than damage area. Massive firepower, just no utility - Palm Strikers give more utility than Wounding Strike Dervs and more firepower because of that dumb ability to dual every 4 seconds, and Warriors give more utility because they now have an accessable IAS/IMS combo of their own and Warriors' Endurance outclasses its firepower, the only optimum way to play with melee is load WE, PR or PS.

Dervs haven't really been nerfed at all, just overpowered with all the dumb buffs.

iVendetta

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Where no man has ever gone before.

Syndicate Nightmare [SyN]

20 Jan 2009 at 01:25 - 29

[Golden Phoenix Strike][Horns of the Ox][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Avatar of Lyssa][Heart of Fury][Mystic Vigor][Resurrection Signet]

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

20 Jan 2009 at 03:09 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla View Post

Well yah obviously if you're using consumables you won't need Critical Agility. As for enchantment removal that's an issue for anyone running enchantments. I still think in general PvE Critical Agility is a very good IAS.

Quote:

The comparison really isn't as lopsided as you guys suggest. W/D wastes the elite on Warrior's Endurance. A/D loses SY!, and frankly shouldn't be playing scythe to begin with. Not trying to make it seem lopsided. As for not using scythes...well they shouldn't be using bows either but they do that pretty effectively as well.

Quote:

Critical Agility is a wasted skill slot when playing for serious. Drunken Master gets you both movement and attack speed, and the armor bonus doesn't stack with SY! I agree Drunkan Master is a great skill but on my sin I'd rather use Critical Agility for the simple reason that my Dwarf rank isn't very high. As for the bonus not stacking with SY who cares... its not really about the armor bonus its about 33% IAS.

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

20 Jan 2009 at 06:06 - 31

"Pretty effective" isn't relevant. Unless you're just screwing around, "most effective" is the only thing worth caring about, and neither scythes nor bows are "most effective" for an assassin. In reality, the often-used argument against playing dervishes (i.e., "Scythesins do it better") results in an argument for not using scythes at all.

I bring up the armor bonus on CA for two reasons:
1) it's significant, and
2) if I'm going to claim that CA is a wasted slot, I need to show that it basically does nothing, which means I have to address both the IAS and the armor.

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

20 Jan 2009 at 13:40 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I bring up the armor bonus on CA for two reasons:
1) it's significant, and
2) if I'm going to claim that CA is a wasted slot, I need to show that it basically does nothing, which means I have to address both the IAS and the armor. I don't personally find the armor bonus to be that significant it's just that... a bonus. The primary reason to have it on your bar is for the IAS so you can attack faster and kill faster. Drunken Master is great and all but if your allegiance rank is low or you want 33% IAS rather then the 15% of Drunken (excluding using alcohol) then Critical Agility is better.

Maneo Ranae

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

W/D

20 Jan 2009 at 14:11 - 33

Warr=Great. Can use Scythes almost as well as Dervishes, the only difference being that Dervishes can get runes on top of their Scythe Mastery to get even more damage. Somehow my Scythe Warr just can't compare to 150 damage EVERY SWING from my D/E Conjure Derv.
However, Warrs have more Conditions than Dervishes do, unless you're getting Earth Prayers.
Warriors can do=Bleeding ([Sever Artery]), Deep Wound ([Gash], [Crushing Blow]), Daze ([Skull Crack]), Blind ([Belly Smash]), Cripple ([Crippling slash]) and on top of that they can knockdown foes while weakening them ([Devastating Hammer]).
Dervishes can do=Bleeding, Deep Wound ([Wounding Strike]), Cripple ([Crippling Sweep]), Weakness ([Shield of Force]) and that's about it,... Unless you want to spend your ELITE on Blind ([Ebon Dust Aura]), but then you're losing Wounding Strike... Which isn't good.

Considering PvE only; the best builds for the Warriors would be a Manly Earth Shaker Pwner,... D-Slash SY-spammer and ofcourse the Scythewarr,...
Too bad Scythewarrs depend on [Aura of holy might (Luxon)] for a good part of their damage, since Dervishes can use that one too. On top of that, they can use pwnage avatars like [Avatar of Grenth] and [Avatar of Lyssa], and maintain them indefinitely ([Eternal Aura]).

Overall,... I just wouldn't know, I've got both ^^.

Burst Cancel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

Domain of Broken Game Mechanics

20 Jan 2009 at 18:08 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

I don't personally find the armor bonus to be that significant it's just that... a bonus. The primary reason to have it on your bar is for the IAS so you can attack faster and kill faster. Drunken Master is great and all but if your allegiance rank is low or you want 33% IAS rather then the 15% of Drunken (excluding using alcohol) then Critical Agility is better.

Allegiance rank isn't an issue. If you're using Drunken Master at all you're either using cons or buffing with alcohol, most likely the former. There's no reason to use the skill otherwise, which is why I said it's for playing seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Warr=Great. Can use Scythes almost as well as Dervishes, the only difference being that Dervishes can get runes on top of their Scythe Mastery to get even more damage. No, actually. The salient difference is that dervishes have double the energy regen of warriors. Innate armor penetration and Power Attack easily outweigh the damage penalty from runes.

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

21 Jan 2009 at 11:11 - 35

Lourens

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

21 Jan 2009 at 11:30 - 36

Warriors all the way

They can get 116 with sentinels so Avatar of Balthazar sucks

And of of course [Eviscerate]

Darkside

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Chantry of Secrets

[Angl]

21 Jan 2009 at 12:01 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Maneo Ranae

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

W/D

21 Jan 2009 at 13:51 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Dervishes are too slow for me because of the need to recast enchants. With warrior, you can just go in there and go berserk. Yes dervishes have decent survivability enchants, but those can be stripped, a warrior's inherent huge AL cannot and doesn't take up skill slots. Dervish=70+Windwalker's (Let's say three enchants)=85
Plus Conviction (24)=109
Plus Avatar of Balthazar (40)=149.

Whatever you say, Warrs can't top that so easily, unless you wanna go for Dolyak's or Defy Pain,...

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

21 Jan 2009 at 14:15 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae View Post

Plus Conviction (24)=109
Plus Avatar of Balthazar (40)=149.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwiki

There is a cap of +25 armor from skills. Single skills may exceed this cap. As far as I can tell, the additional armour from these two skills together will still only be +40, and only because AoB is one of those skills which allows you to exceed the +25AL cap, so as far as I can see your figures are slightly off. Just a technicality.

Necrotic

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

The mists

Co-founder of Knights of the Phoenix

21 Jan 2009 at 14:17 - 40

So now it's....Warrior vs. Dervish.....what's next Fatelord, Warrior vs. Elementalist? Ranger?

I know you're just trying to get input so you can build the best warrior in the game...but seriously....just try it yourself and make your own decision....after all you do have 8 slots or so to use right? Plus you can always delete it and start over if you find yourself not liking the choice you made.