To the vaporware people...

Who's asking you to?

You missed my point.

I don't think I've missed anything, because there wasn't really anything in your previous 4 posts in this thread. And this has been happening for quite a while on this thread.

Between those that troll, those that want to push Anet to release info, those that just want to express their feelings, and so on, and so forth, this thread has become uterly useless.

People need to get over it, buy more patience, or move on and stop looking obsessively at the past.

See, here's the problem... they WEREN'T quiet about it. They announced the game nearly two years ago. Blizzard said exactly nothing until their game was practically done. What's the bloody point in announcing an upcoming game and then turtling up for two years? If it's almost done, it's not like they can surprise anyone like Blizzard did, and now everybody wonders why they haven't heard anything about it.

If it's just a marketing thing... worst... strategy... EVER.

You can doubt all you like, but all evidence suggests you're wrong. They silently built the game for three years before they unveiled it, so there wasn't any heavy lifting left to do on it by the time it was being shown to the world.

Where in the bloody hell does this ridiculous idea come from? Next to nothing about Guild Wars is unique. It's a 3D online RPG where you kill monsters and quests to earn xp, money, and items that can be used to level up, improve your gear (sort of), and gain new skills. It's the same derivative system every computer RPG has been using since the days of MUDs and BBS door games, which stole half their style from tabletop games anyway.

Stop confusing popularity and uniqueness. The ONLY two things that ever set Guild Wars apart were it's free monthly play (which it was not the first to do by about 8 years) and its henchman system (which it also was not the first to do, but did to a greater extent than any other online game I'm aware of).

Well... that's not true... it also distinguishes itself by its lack of a z-axis and railroad-track movement through areas, a terrible inventory system, majorly limited character slots, an extremely limited gear system, a terrible crafting system, much less content than pay-to-play MMOs, permanently unbalanced classes (now that there are expansions that apparently nobody planned ahead for)...

Really? It's the only MMO out there? Huh.... funny... I thought I'd heard of a few others that made names from themselves...

You used to understand these things a while ago, but it seems you've become like many trolls here, failing to see the point (sad story of Guru). I'm not going to reply point-by-point as I feel it's not as constructive to the discussion, but rather paint a simple (big/high-level) picture:

uniqueness = great/realistic graphics running on low-end machines + story-driven + online with AI-support + adapted to various levels of gaming skills + no-monthly-fees + updated frequently + PvP + streamed update (ty Gun Pierson ).

(EDIT: notice how I don't mention MMO?)

Of course, one can claim it's similar to the games Babylonians and Egygtians played a few thousand years ago by devising a convoluted theory of why there's nothing really unique. Yes there is, in the combination of these things. You can QQ all you want about this, or that, or even the lack of this or that, but it still remains a unique success, albeit a "niche" one. You may want it to be different to suit YOUR needs but I, and a lot of people, don't want that. I won't trade this f2p model for LotRO/WoW cashcow system, because it suits MY needs and I'm not coming here (on Guru) to say non-sense of this sort. Am I selfish? I don't think so.

Ok gentlemen, don't forget gw has a unique server setup with streaming technology (practically no downtime too). It's possible to play with anybody in the world sorta speak, although in the beginning you only had a max of 5 transfers between servers.

Another remarkable thing was that the game can be played on less powerfull pc's and still looks decent. At release gw's graphics were pretty awesome at that time.

I also found playing with human characters only, rather remarkable too, I don't know if it's unique though. It was another reason why I liked the game so much. Elves, dwarves etc., seen that, played them before.

Anyway, the game had lots of nice ingredients that set it apart at that time, to me at least.

EDIT: Almost forgot, best PvP system out there when it got released?

It would either be announce GW2 and then go quiet for 2 years, or don't announce it and go quiet for 2 years about the 4 GW1 campaigns there should have been by now, PLUS GW2. Pick. This retarded argument as gone on long enough you people only seem to read what interests you and ignore everything else.

Or use that PCgamer expose to promote GW:EN, mention somewhere in that it will be the last gw1 installment, mention that they are planning a sequel that achievement from gw1 can be transferred in from viva the HoM. Do this instead of pages of brainstorming, saying when beta will begin, est. Of course maybe they didn't have much to really show off of gw:en, no new class, very few new creature models, dungeon that are exactly the same but have different walls spawn in them.

Guild Wars IS unique. I've been playing D&D since the late 70's, I've used computers since 1980, and owned my own since 1983.

I've played them all; pen & paper, messageboard & ascii bbs games (yes I was a tradewars freak), pc games since the timex sinclair, and console game since the atari 2600 (actually we may have had pong before the atari, but I'm not certain).

Uniqueness is in the combination of long standing gaming ideas and the twists new ideas and technology can bring to them.

You know, I love chatting in these threads about GW, it helps get out my frustrations from waiting so long to hear about the game. But I hate how so many of them turn in to people bashing the game itself, saying the game sucks.

Really? Then why the hell have you been playing it? I love the game, if GW2 graphics are only on-par with GW1 I'll still get it, the gameplay is that good. It's the first game, in a long list of industry attempts, that really brings me back to the community feel of good old D&D, with a major kick into the 21st century.

First may I ask a couple of questions? Are you still playing GW? If the game is so bad (as you point out above) why do you even bother to post on a fan-site.
ANET has decided on a strategy for GW2, whether it is right or wrong we will see. While I truly hope that GW2 will eventually be released if it isn't there will always be other alternatives. Virtual life will go on with or without GW2.

Keep in mind, these people complain because they care about Guild Wars. Hell, people wouldn't spend so much time trolling here if they didn't care about the game. Check out the World of Warcraft forums, its the same thing. Who better to constantly nitpick a game, than the people that spend so much time with it.

I stopped reading here, enjoy the ignore list. I'm sorry your case has too many holes in it and you can no longer support it, but that doesn't justify resorting to just arbitrarily calling people names.

While any or all of those things could be debated on their merits, none of them are unique. And I don't know what you mean about the server architecture being unique. It's not unique, they just use a different process for releasing updates than most other MMOs do. Frankly, it's silly. Having a regular downtime for patching and maintenance is much nicer than getting spammed in chat to restart the game at random intervals. But that's just my opinion.

Yea? And? Is anyone really surprised that ANET painted themselves in a corner? They haven't done a great job of managing their only game so far, why would anyone think they'd manage development of their next one any better?

Yea, in the sense that there's nothing else exactly like it in every respect. Too bad that in reality it's still just a standard computer RPG following all the standard computer RPG paradigms.

No, I didn't say the game was bad, I pointed out that it lacks a large number of basic features. It's still a fun game despite that fact (or, was, anyway, when there was still anything to do).

I don't, I post on GuildWarsGuru.

Nope. Already did everything. Well, except MOX and a bunch of title grinds.

Paint themselves into a corner? They wanted to start over with a new game, and that's what they decided to do. The only options available to them at the time were a) tell us, but have nothing really impressive to show for a good long while, or b) don't tell us, and have the community /ragequit because we have no idea why we aren't getting any new expansions. The company isn't large enough to work on both GW1 and GW2, so those were the only options. Instead of criticizing how they've handled the game, how about you come out and state exactly what you expected them to do when they decided to shift to GW2?

Although the devs used their experience from battle.net, it is unique. It's a brilliant thought out system based on using as low bandwidth as possible with a very small exe login file.

Also it auto selects the files you as a player need first. So you can start playing, while the rest is downloaded in the background.

Name me one game with this technology (outside NCsoft group)? Don't come with 'runescape', that's a webbrowser java based game, not coded in c and c++.

And it's a nice technology. Imagine the servers would be down every week for several hours.

Just tried warhammer, that game just kills itself as it has a classic server setup and the game needs a population as it's focused on pvp. Their server setup just chokes the system. Warhammer was released last year, gw 4 years ago. It took me 20 secs to log off the warhammer server, it takes 1-2 secs to log out in GW.

I was there when wow was launched, man what a mess. Servers down, queus etc. It lasted a couple of months till they got things somewhat in order.

And there was this game GW, that had no problems of that kind. Smooth launch.

Man I would like to have the code of the engine and the details of the server network. Got so many great ideas, just need to get the right people.

There's a reason why they licensed it to ncsoft 'group' only, because it's unique.

LOL

I think those are more like issues for persistent world games, gw was a instanced game. I have a feeling these issue will show up in gw2 because they are going for that persistent world fad. To be honest, I wish they just made a instanced system like hellgate, those party portals rocked.

Does that say Elite Fansite? Not to be contrary CTB, but Guru is a fansite like it or not.

Not to be a downer (because ctb is clearly still a troll), but if not for several deleted posts, that elite fansite icon wouldn't be there. As for this thread, Duke Nukem Forever is wins.

Awareness is not a weakness, nor is it lame.

Whether people are tuned into it, or not, the MMO industry isn't where it is today because the idea of making an online game was a stupid idea. We're saturated with MMO style games because the industry is highly competitive and yes; Companies do look at their competition to see if they, too, can capitalize on the next great "idea". Noone said it had to be world changing, or something noone ever thought of before. It is a matter of being the one to capitalize on it.

The idea of having an online RPG wasn't something pioneered by Blizzard and World of Warcraft. However, they were the ones who capitalized on that idea.

Does anyone think it's just coincidence that there was a spike in the 2D side-scroll MMO after the success of Maple story?

Branching out a bit - Does anyone think it's just coincidence, that in the gaming industry in general, there's been a spike in Music generating games such as Guitar Hero and rock band?

Was it just a coincidence that after Wolfeinstien, or even more so after the first DOOM, the 3D first person shooter style suddenly spiked?

Branch out even farther in the entertainment field to broaden the range- Does anyone think it was just coincidence that, after the success of the first "Survivor" on CBS, that we got pounded with "reality" tv shows on all major networks? Is it just coincidence that the success of American idol gave birth to more "Talent" shows?

How about "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" sparking a time period of trying to be the next great Primetime million dollar game show?

Truth is none of these examples were just coincidence. It wasn't that everyone suddenly had the same idea and started releasing all of these similar products all at once over a set span of time. It was one company capitalizing on an idea. The rest saw it and expanded on them to try and get their own success from it. Why? Competing companies watch each other very closely. Any bit of information they can get from "across-the-hall", they want to know about it. Any ideas that can be remotely seen as new innovations, or "new", can be altered by competition and beaten to the market.

If you think Pepsi isn't paying attention to what Coca-Cola is doing, or vice versa, you're mistaken. If you think Microsoft isn't watching what Apple is doing, you're mistaken (Ipod to the Zune anyone?). Just as if you believe Blizzard isn't trying to figure out what NcSoft is doing, and/or the other way around you're making a mistake.


But back to MMO's; This industry and it's "new feeling" has worn off. It has for some time. 8 years ago, you could release any generic style MMO and you could find some relative success. Playing online with your pals was still a fresh idea, but it's not like that anymore. Logging online too hook up with your buddies from across oceans isn't a novelty anymore. Simply levelling up, getting uber gear, and running the same dungeon, or instance, isn't fresh. In todays world, it's just routine daily life for a gamer. Players today are expecting a lot more from game developers for MMO/ORPG games and that's been evident with recent failed releases. You can't just shove anything out the door and expect to compete at high levels anymore in a now multi-million dollar industry. And with online technology expanding by leaps from just PC to your Iphones, blackberry's, ipods, and other multimedia devices...well, I think we all know some gaming company is eyeing that market to expand MMO's to those multi-level platforms of personal entertainment. Those who protect their investments and ideas and those who do it right find the success. Those who don't, who are sloppy about it, switch their pens to the red ink.

I said it before, but I think it's worth repeating. If online gaming was in a market where there was little competition, or reasons for innovation, developers would have little reason to restrain from releasing loads of information. However, that's not the case. There are many wandering eyes and recently, not just by Anet, you're seeing more and more developers keeping tighter lids on their projects.

The MMO market tried to move into the "next-gen" release with titles like AoC and Warhammer. Neither is fairing so well. Aion will be the next on that list for the "next-gen" MMO (I think) and from early looks will be quite the game, but only time will tell. If Anet and Guild Wars 2 plans on being in this next-gen market then they have every reason to keep their mouths shut until they're good and ready to present their product.

They have one shot, just one, to do it right. They don't have the luxury of saying, "Oh well. We tried. Let's try this other idea", without any worry of resources and finance. Players do have that luxury - we can say, "Oh well, this was bad. I'll try this other one instead" because we have plenty of choices in the market.

If it was your millions, would you risk it? Would you give up anything? Would you protect the investment? I know I would. If I were in this market, as a developer, watching big-named titles fall left and right, and in current global economic troubles I wouldn't breathe a word of anything until I know my product has an absolute stable footing to run a life of success.

I assume you're asking me not what I expected, but what I would have done in their position, and of course I have no idea because I don't know any of the particulars. It's entirely possible, as you indirectly stated, that they had no good options. That still means they chose a bad option, though, and they could have at least come out and said that they didn't have the resources to develop a new game AND the old game at the same time.

In fact, you're probably very right about this. For whatever reason, just being upfront with people, even about relatively inconsequential things, is horridly difficult for most companies.

Any other arbitrary preconditions you'd like to set before I respond?

The 20 second logout is intentional. Most online games do it as a way to prevent cheating. Otherwise, if you were losing a fight, you could just disconnect to prevent the loss. If it really bothers you, use the x to close the app. You'll still be live on the server for that 20 seconds though, so you might log back in dead.

If you're talking about a delay in unloading the client, that's caused by the CLIENT application, not the server. Usually because they've been leaking memory. You see it a lot in browsers too.

While all of this is true, what evidence is it of Guild Wars' unique server architecture? LOTRO had a clean launch, they use standard MMO designs. Does that say something special about LOTRO?

I was being sarcastic because I don't think very highly of the majority of people who visit this site.

Yep. Because everybody else can't provide one shred of proof that Guild Wars 2 exists, I'm a troll.

It is true we can't provide one shred of proof. We can believe the word of the CRM or not. What's left is hope.

Hope is a remarkable thing. During history people endured all kinds of bad things. Hope is something they can hold on too.

I know this isn't a life or death situation, but we all would like GW2 to be real and rather sooner than later and we want it to be fun.

I'm always in for a nice debate and all, but if we can't have hope anymore...


(About those 20 secs going offline in Warhammer, funny I never thought about it that way, but you make sense there.) And ofcourse an instant world is different than a persistence one, but why can't I find a similar game like gw on the market? There are dozens of wow clones and what not sorta speak.

I wanne spend money on a product and no company can or wants to deliver a game like GW.

Folks, GW2 does exist. It's not vaporware. There's nearly 200 people in the studio working on it day in and day out. It hasn't reached the level of polish where we want to show it off just yet, but I assure you the development team is working super hard on it. I am excited by everything I see in the game, and when we do release information I think people will be excited too.

Every single day I get messages from players asking me for GW2 information. Every single day I have to tell them that we're not ready to show it off yet, and to keep watching the official site. Week in and week out informally and in my regular reports, I tell others in the company that you're all chomping at the bit for news. I have been telling them for the past 6 or 7 months just how badly the community wants this, how angry some of you are. We are standing firm on this -- we won't show GW2 stuff until we think it it will exceed your expectations.

That's PR lingo boys and girls for "vaporware".

I don't know whether it's better to tell you all that I've seen it and played it -- and have people say that I'm flat out lying, or not post here at all and allow the speculation to continue. I've chosen the first option, mainly because it seems like people are genuinely worried about GW2 not existing. Now, if you choose to reject this and continue believing it's vaporware, then I guess I really can't do a thing about that.

At any rate, I have been and continue to advocate on your behalf in terms of showing GW2 information. They're pretty firm that we should bring the game to a superior level of polish before showing it off.

I believe you Regina and tx for advocating on our behalf. It seems you're a down to earth person.

I think you did well by chosing the first option. At least for me, as I was indeed genuinely worried. I hope it has a positive effect on other people too.

Btw what class did you play? (just kidding)

That would seem to be a poor business decision then. I'm a bit indifferent myself, but some people are getting discouraged and the more people who start believing that the game is vaporware, the more likely it is they will move on to another MMORPG and leave GW in the past.

Doesn't it make more sense to keep players hooked by giving them something to chew on. I don't think anyone is expecting a beta tomorrow or even a trailer. But a screenshot, a piece of concept art, or something tangible would go a long way towards dispelling the vaporware rumours.

200 people are working on it and there's not a single thing they can show for it? Did they start this morning?

2Regina: Oh, mine... Alright, let's see:
When I announced ".Wanderings", my first step was puting demo. Sure, it was buggy pre-alpha, but it was real.
When I announced "Flow", my first step was puting demo. Sure, it was buggy pre-alpha, but it was real.
When I announced "Finite Height", my first step was puting demo. Sure, it was buggy pre-alpha, but it was real.

...And no one said me that my projects was vapor. Just because they aren't. Releasing, of course, in entirely different matter here, but at least they was in development. And no one ever argued about it, because there was proof...

Feel the difference ? Now, you. 200 people ? Heh, quite interesting. So, why you are recruiting more (http://www.arena.net/jobs/) ? If 200 isn't enough to develop one game (lurk a bit about Touhou series, BTW), even 200k won't help you. You was excited ? Well, it's, basically, your job. PR is sure a difficult task - you must always imitate admiration for adverised things... Well, anyways. You want to polish things before showing us. So polish few and show us ! Come on, it's not that hard. You may also show us non-game media: concept arts. They doesn't even need to be polished. As for me, even few major structure\class definitions will be enough...

Conclusion: you should use proofs, when you are trying to make people belive in your words. Mine is always ready. Your ?

Seconded.

Thanks for the info Regina.

Guys keep in mind. it took over 2 years to get GW2 done, it took blizzard 3 years to get diablo 3 to a point were they could tell us about it and its not even done yet. Anet hasn't even had a full 2 years to work on GW2.

LOL @ CR damage-controlling scheme. Let me ask: You're a CR and all you can do is waving your CR flag telling us to just take your words for it? What are we, some blind, brainless fools? Some fanbois here give out more concrete reasonings as to why GW2 isn't a vaporware than you did in your 2 posts COMBINED.

Sad, sad day indeed.

I don't know how much more upfront they could have possibly been. "Guys, we're stopping all production on new chapters for GW1, pulling all devs save 2 (now bumped up to 5, I think), and moving everyone to this new project. Here's a nice magazine full of lore and concept stuff, much of which would have been in the new expansion, but you won't see now." I mean, how much stronger of a "we can't do both games at the same time" statement do you want? Your interpretation of my post is correct, I don't think they had any good options, but I think they picked the better one of the two, which is still something.

To the trolls above me: what the heck did you expect her to say? "Oh, I see now you guys reeeeeally want info, here you go, sorry it took so long"? If you were just going to call her a liar no matter what she said, why are you surprised that she doesn't address the subject very often?

I love it...you naysayers are going to get yourself so embarrassed from this site if Guild Wars 2 actually does come out.

I am not going to defend ArenaNet, nor am I going accuse them of vaporware. I'll reserve judgment until a later date. There's no hardcore proof either way, so you can shout vaporware all you want. Only way it will ever cease to be is if the company goes out of business or they publicly state that Guild Wars 2 has been canceled.

Sorry, are you really belive to everything that people saying to you ?

Ty Regina. I've highlighted this bit, because I can't believe how people are talking non-sense when you've said this twice now (once on your talkpage, once here). People may choose to discuss the PR policy or decision behind the silence, everyone has its opinion, but not believing your words on the fact that you've actually played the current GW2 prototype, that goes beyon my understanding. (the only rational explanation being that they're trying to push for more info, forcing you into the corner of denying that GW2 is vaporware, which you've, rightfully IMHO, shown just above)

200 people on GW2, and I thought it was 100+ ! This is going to blow us completely I'm sure, I'm a happy GW1 player who's enjoying rollerbeetle race as always and happy to know you're progressing and getting each day closer to the first interesting bit of news on GW2. Keep up the good work, you're a unique gem in the sea of the gaming industry.

Well I for one appreciate you coming here, despite the heat, and posting what you did. I believe you, and am relieved to read that you have seen the actual game and are hyped by what you've seen.

One suggestion for your company I would give is this; Someone there should update the GW2 website, put the backstory that was already released in PC Gamer on a tab of the official GW2 site. Post the 5 races, with their concept art (also previously released in PCG). Basically get that site ready for the outflux of new info, 'coming soon' signs accepted.

I think (actually for myself - know) it's the outward appearance of no progress that is worrisome. Maybe getting the site more polished would assuage some fears, maybe not.

Heh... I doesn't belive in Santa Claus, tooth fairies, communism and 200-people projects wizout any screenshots or even concept art. Sorry, man.

Do people here really have nothing else to do than GW? Isn't there anything else that you can do while you wait for GW2?

Btw thanks Regina.
Most of the people on this forums don't know anything about designing and marketing so they tend to get a "little" impatience.

Take a chill pill people. And just for the record, for those of you trying to convince them this is bad marketing and people will just move on, I say to you... You're still here... Posting about GW2 nearly every day.

It is likely that they have seen the recent MMOs release and then nearly flop a month later because they can't maintain their subscription base with all the hype they got in the beginning, then failing to deliver on it. So they spend their time polishing their game, making sure it's absolutely perfect before even releasing screen shots and such.

Just give it time.

i can already see the next stage of the vapoware trolls. as soon as anet releases some screenshots, people will come up with something like: "Oh, everybody can put together some screenshots in a 3d programm without having an actual game. gw2 is vapoware more than ever".

just look at darkfall. some people still think its vapoware after seeing screenshots, videos and beta reports.

You showed off guildwars when it looked like this. I bet folks didnt complain what it looked like and were pleased to see anything. They would only be more pleased to see that the end product was event more polished.

Players are aware products change and improve, you may want to give us a little more credit, than taking the attitude of 'sorry cant show you anything'.

Well, at least it would proof that ANet still has some 3D modellers\Animators)...