The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

Just because AI is retarded, giving them a bigger gun doesn't make them any better or make the game enjoyable.

The game is better when the mobs approach the style of play of human foes, but then AI can only do so much.

When you fight most of the enemies in game you don't think "Wow these guys are good or challenging!", you think "here comes a stupid juggernaut".

The bigger the difference between the AI and Human rules the worse and less skillful the game is, regardless of how hard or easy is to overcome the mobs.

As some said, the most enjoyable battles in PvE is against the Charr and Stone Summit in GWEN in NM WITHOUT PVE only-skills and CONSUMABLES. Those are quite good

GWs main flaw is that can only add to the sides, while games like WOW keeps progressing. Its mindless and repetitive, but to beat the new stronger enemies, you need to level and acquire new gear and so on so forth.

To break the mold you need good PvP options. GWs has or had good PvP in GvG, but again it isn't a friendly one to get in.

In SC and WC3 you can play whenever you want. No need to schedule with other people.

In CS, yes for arranged teams matches you need to schedule with other people, but you can train and learn the game playing in random public matches and then trying to get in a team/clan.

For some reason, maybe GWs GvG couldn't generate enough income for Anet to keep the game or just for pure greed (and I'm not criticizing them for wishing to make more money), they decided to expand PvE.

But since they can't or decided against raising the level cap, they can't do what games like WoW do. They can only add more and more of the same stuff. So they decided to add titles to give PvE'rs more stuff to do, HM to give stronger mobs and PvE-only skills and consumables to replace the "better items and more levels" players get in other games.

Since GWs wasn't designed to be like that from scratch it became a mess - hence GW2.

Yes its stupid, yes its badly implemented. But that is why GW is going to be replaced by GW2.

HM wasn't introduced to be more challenging as in requiring more skill, its to be more challenging by requiring titles, new pve-only skills and consumables.

In the end you finish with a game that is as easy or even easier than before?
Isn't what happens in every RPG game, MMO or otherwise?

Wasn't what the game announced? Well, guess they sold their souls to the devil of successful money making MMORPGs, while still having the BEST MMORPG based PvP.

contradicting urself
nerfing overpowered stuff creates skill balance if done correctly
and vise versa wit buffing underpowered skills (aka we dun want to nerf for the sake of nerfing...we simply want balance)


i quite like the boss fights in gw and many other games thank u very much

its too bad that sorrows furnace is so empty
i thought that boss fight was pretty epic
wish more ppl would experience that rather than spending time doin monotonous tasks like farming/grinding the same spot over and over again


@red sonya
ur post is very misguided
while i agree wit ur attitude in general, the fault is not because ppl want to be highly skilled in the game
moreso the fact that there is a heavy importance on rewards/titles/etc

ppl who use game genie obviously arent lookin to be highly skilled in the game
so that has no relevance on ppl wanting to be very skilled
its more about receiving gratification from winning/obtaining rewards/titles/etc
and choosing the easiest path there is aka pve/overpowered skills

There is a difference between nerfing something (smiter's boon anyone?) and tweaking some numbers or minor adjusting.
Regarding the bolded part, balance in any game where you fight AI is temporary even without changes.You gain a great advantage after you beat the AI for the first time. Skills should be changed to allow players multiple viable options when beating the AI.

^no
jus the perception created by the community based on izzy's decisions on nerfs
izzy likes to completely destroy skills...thats not the true defintion of "nerf"

nerfing is lowering the effectiveness of a skill to create balance
whether it is minor or major adjustment doesnt change the fact that it is a nerf

btw izzy said hes not working on balancing gw1 anymore
so perhaps that means there will be no more "smiters boon" level of nerfs
(sowrie starting going offtopic...lets try to keep it on topic)

Of course the other way to increase variety is to increase the effectiveness of a skill.



Also it seems a part of the population only considers a skill balanced for PvE if that skill is considered ok for PvP.

Lets look, for example, at the recent nerf of protective was kaolai.

+24 armor that can be turned into a party heal in a pinch is quite strong for PvP. Making it +10 armor to reduce defense levels is probably (saying probably because I'm not playing PvP at this time) good for PvP.

But does that make any difference in PvE? Do the mobs have a hard time killing someone that has +24 armor instead of +10 armor?

If it has no purpose in PvE, especially cause there is a pool of skills in PvE that aren't available for PvP, why was PwK nerfed for PvE too?

And then there is the temptation of attributing all the evils of GWs to overpowered skills the PvE players use, without looking at hoe the mob skills look like - a good example is Ray of Judgment.

Ray of Judgment is quite a powerful tool for the Tank-and-spank archetype of play. But it isn't exclusive of players.

HM Rragar's Menagerie, for example, can be quite interesting. Especially when you have some heroes with you and like 10+ Fleshreaver Hound throwing RoJ's at you on a extremely long and narrow passage. And since its HM they can cast/recharge it quite fast and their RoJs are a "tad" stonger.

Is it impossible to do it? No, of course not. But can involve quite an annoying play style, that wont teach you any skill that will be applied in PvP.

Just for a simple comment, I think the community got increasingly pissy with factions and nf release. I know alot of original players quit during that period.

I think the last straw for most people was the decision to end the GW1 line, trash Utopia, and give us a strage gw2 logo. Kind of lowered my confidence and my willingness to let Anet do "whatever."

Factions was ok but nightfall with those stupid heroes ruined the game for many i even thought of quitting / I love the times where people where dying for a Human Monk and it made me feel good to help them with my monkey ... well and now its just "we dont need you our heroes are superior"

Diablo 2 and NWN's are multiplayer also, but, that doesn't stop the majority of people playing them solo. GW STARTED OUT as a more multiplayer game, but, has dwindled to a solo game with mere multiplayer elements like D2 and NWN. The proof is in the pugging now vs then. When GW first released I couldn't goto a single district without getting asked to join a pug, now it's next to nill or none in the majority of districts unless you are in the elite areas. Hardly anyone is pugging the story mode anymore they are being played solo with heroes and henchies the majority of time and the population in those districts in prime time proves it. I see more players just standing around with 8 above their heads, not chatting, not even moving or entering missions. It's like Medusa struck these districts and everyone has turned to stone.

There's nothing wrong with rewards coming from more stressful tasks. It's simply what you get for working harder. The difference that happened in GW is that ANet appealed to the few that wanted it easier, regardless of what happens. ANet even had less of a reason given that all of the rewards are simply cosmetic.

These days, more games are going down the path of rewarding those who "work harder". In Fallout 3 you earn less experience the easier you make the game, and you gain more the harder you set the difficulty. In Rock Band 2 you can turn on "No Fail Mode" and a setting that unlocks all of the songs, but you're disabled from earning achievements as you do so. Further still are there games that unlock secret content when completed on the hardest settings.

I consider how the enemies are set up in Guild Wars to be justified - just like how I consider the hordes of enemies with their special 1-hit kill abilities in other games justified - because I'm human. I adapt. I learn. I change the way I play. Rarely, if not at all, does AI do any of that.

This is further proved with their inconsistency: I praise the challenge of the summit mobs, but it's a bit confusing why. I'd point to them having well balanced team set ups, but I also got that in Kourna and the Desolation - and I don't think I ever considered those two areas challenging. I want to say that it's because I faced the summit much earlier in my gaming career, but even comparing the two today do I find the summit more challenging.

YMMV. I always like to reenact David vs. Goliath. It's satisfying knowing that know matter how big a bad guy's sword is, how tough and formidable a dragon can be, that it's always gonna be your brains the end the fight.

Either way, I find it massively interesting that you disdain how the enemies have been given these massive buffs, these "big guns", when Anet provided the exact same tools to the players. Now everyone can play like an idiot!

When one side of the game may be considered broken, breaking the other half just makes it two times worse.

Like many of anet grand jestures, they go half and half or do a half-assed job.

Pointless having a PvP/PvE skill spilt if alot of the changes made unnessary effect the PvE version of said skill. They've not even reverted some of the skill nerfs of the past because of PvP balance.

I just don't consider beating someone that is an idiot in some annoying exploiting way more skillful that beating them in a straightforward way.

A big gun is only a big gun if the other guys don't have it. Once they both have them they will just kill each other in a more spectacular way. Ridiculous would be if Anet had given players big guns and not to the mobs - and that happens in most of the NM.

At the start of this thread (and it is the basis of other threads) some were saying that PvE-only skills and consumables are bad for the community skill. Some even said that was what cause a lack of interest in PvP and whatnot. "Remove the consumables and PvE-only skills to increase the skill!".

What skill is that? Skill similar to GvG.

Its obvious that you beat the AI because the AI is designed to be beaten. And you beat the buffed, stronger AI because they are dumbasses, not because you are skillful, regardless of PvE-only skill or consumables.

Removing PvE-only skills and consumables wont increase skill, what they will make is that instead of you walking a flat road you have to climb a steep hill. But in the end is just a question of time spent not skill.

Its like you having a puzzle to put together, it can have more pieces or less pieces, but its always the same puzzle. Doing it more times will make you faster at it.

But the skill required by GvG is building a scaled down and fully functional model of something that always change, faster than an opposing team, while both of the teams try to disrupt each other work.

So removing those things on the grounds that it will increase the skill of the community and will make them go play GvG and make Anet decide GW2 will be a PvP only game is a bit flimsy.

And, once again, you can make your version of the puzzle have more or less pieces. You just wont be rewarded for it. (Although, if you are the first to discover some exploit in the game, you will most likely will be able to acquire more of something that the community sees as valuable and reap the profits before everyone else catches up).

And gimmicks builds started as innovative builds at one point. But more people learn about them and can run them to the same effect, since its the same AI for everyone.

In GvG, running the same build is very different of being able to use it the same way...

It's like you said, a puzzle. You have to come up with an idea of routes that you can come up with to solve it. What PvE skills do is provide you with essentially the answer. What consumables do is, in a way, make all of your answers - no matter how wrong - *right*.

That's why you fix the exploits. But then it comes to the question of what's actually considered an exploit...although I'm pretty sure most would agree that the tank-and-spank method shouldn't really exist in GW.

And how come removing things that put quite a halt on build configuration - the epitome of Guild Wars PvE - won't enforce people to actually put together more thoughtful builds? Sure it's not PvP, but there will never, *ever* be a game that "properly prepares you" for it. Even if you'd master expert bots in CS:S, you'll be entering a whole different ballpark once you actually go online. Same with Starcraft, Unreal Tournament...Guild Wars. That doesn't mean you can make it *less* thoughtful.

So what else will balancing consumables and PvE skills do? If nerfed accordingly, it will enforce players to 1. Configure more proper and balanced builds and 2. use skills that actually exist in both sides of the game. The more we include exclusivity in PvE, the more you put a turn-off in PvP.

Also, you state that removing PvE skills and consumables will make that "flat road" into a steep one. That's true if you're not terribly good at the game...Yeah, see the problem?

And hey, if you don't like that steep road, just switch back to NM!!!1 It's so simple, right!?

Rather late reply...

As some were debating, no I wasn't asking a question or looking for advice; I was only stating my (somewhat unexperienced) opinion on the matter. But I appreciate the response, as you said afterwards that new people tend to get ignored. I respect the conversations people have going though and I don't demand that attention be paid immediately..

That said...

I agree...it is really easy to isolate yourself, what with all the hench and hero options, though sometimes human parties make it easier in specific missions... And like you said, people are so preoccupied with other things that they have no intention to socialize in-game with other people. Judging by what's being said here, the general consensus is that there's too many things to do for too many people who don't know what they're doing.

The problem is that HM doesn't encourage playing balanced because you need 3-4 things for HM: damage, healing and [Protective Spirit] and maybe ["Save Yourselves!"]. Who needs energy denial, interupts or degen pressure when you can just kill them much faster?

As improvavel said, the enemies in pve are there to die and nothing else.

Interrupts are part of the defense not the offense

What you are saying it true and is a major problem with the game, but you are completely missing the point here. We have people in this thread talking about balance and skill and the game as a whole as if they are the only ones playing it. You CAN NOT do that because the game is multiplayer and has many people playing it in the same world. We can not talk about what is best for the soloers...only what is best for the game.

What is best for the game is beyond fixing. Anet has already caused a mass exodus from trying to BALANCE the game, then they tried to apease the powergamers and grinders and that caused more mass exodus. Then they mucked with necros power and that caused another mass exodus. There was a time when the game was fun PVE wise, there was a time when loot dropped all over the place and farming or just general adventuring was FUN. People grouped with anyone because the loot drops were great even if you did group with a sorry group of people. GW is NOT the game GW was out of the box nearly 4 years ago. Things are too easy for one thing, nobody really has to struggle anymore to get anything anymore. Inscriptions and heroes totally ruined the economy imho. And of course the list goes on. There was a time when ectos and Obsidian armors meant a lot. Now ectos are pretty much a dime a dozen and everyone is wearing some set of Obsidian armor or any other 15k armor. Nothing has value anymore. Titles are worthless except for epeen. Cept maybe wisdom and treasure hunter ones. And GW2 is going to be just like this only it will be a PERSISTANT world mess. lol For a game to survive there must be a reason and a goal constantly for the player(s) to continue. I'm not one to hack up willie over n over again for a few bars of gold that I already have more of than I need. Besides the adventure I want something others want that only some of us have.

It's like this I don't just goto work for an income, I goto work for goals, and to achieve maximum success within the company. To move UP the ladder and OBTAIN GREATER THINGS others don't have below me. That's just life. Without goals or better achievements that job would be boring and redundant and most likely I'd quit. Now maybe you don't need any goals. Perhaps you are satisfied pencil pushing the same types of paper over n over everyday just so you have food on the table, but, I'm the type that always seeks more and more advantages and spiffs out of my job.

[[Mental Block], [[Radiation Field], [[Smooth Criminal], [[Summon Ice Imp],[[Summon Mursaat],[[Summon Naga Shaman], [[Summon Ruby Djinn], [["Don't Trip!"],[[Alkar's Alchemical Acid], [[Black Powder Mine], [[Dwarven Stability], [[Ear Bite], [[Low Blow], [[Snow Storm], [[Light of Deldrimor], [[Deft Strike], [[Ebon Escape], [[Signet of Infection], [[Sneak Attack],[[Tryptophan Signet], [[Weakness Trap], [[Winds], [[A Touch of Guile], [[Feel No Pain] [[Raven Blessing], [[Ursan Blessing], [[Volfen Blessing], [[Signet of Corruption], [[Ether Nightmare], [[Elemental Lord], [[Shadow Sanctuary], [[Intensity], [[Vampirism].

Yes, you use these and PvE HM is a joke.

While I dislike tank-and-spank, Anet introduced the tools for it from day one.

You are right. You just pick any 3 pve skills and you win.


Again I refer you to the list presented. Second, people will always "tank" in PvE. It can be with [[obsidian flesh], [[shadow form] or simply by having a warrior body blocking the mob while enchanted by [[protective spirit]+[[shield of absorption] or any other variety of enchantments and bonds, because, first, the mobs are dumb, second, the mobs while dumb in some late nm areas and in some HM areas, can deal too much damage too fast if faced as if you were facing level 20 humans.

Taking 10 hours to finish DoA with tank-and-spank doesn't make you any more skillful than finishing it in 2 hours with cryway tank-and-spank.

So people can switch back to NM, but you cant stop using PvE-only skills and consumables that flatten the road for you?

And of course, most of HM is a joke anyway. [protective spirit] + [enfeebling blood] smashes most of it. What we are really talking is one or two areas that are designed to be played with tank-and-spank groups if there were no pve-skills.

Uh...so basically you mostly agree with me but you chose to disagree with me earlier for some reason?

I'll say it again...the game has to be balanced around the fact that it is a multiplayer game. The game philosophy has to be intact for EVERYBODY. If the game preaches skill>time it has to be skill>time for either everybody or nobody. Players going solo has no bearing on this.

Good job, soldier.

Now go ahead and list the rest, you know, the ones people *don't* part with. There's no excuse for having imbalanced, overpowered skills. If you can't beat the idiot AI, learn to play. Prove me wrong, you get a cookie.

Tank and spank has been a method since day one...and the problem is it hasn't even been *touched* since then. The only reason the holy trinity is successful is by being outside of the monsters aggro range while the tank soaks them up and you deal your damage. There are a ton of ways to solve this, quite a few I can think of right off the top of my head.

Tell me how it's any less selfish than you wanting them to stay as they are for your soloing prowess.

Because I'll tell you how what you want to maintain is more selfish.

I pointed out earlier how more games have been not giving you credit if you use one of their provided "cheap" methods: Rock Band 2 locks you from earning achievements if you turn on the mode where you can't get booed off the stage no matter how bad you are. Mass Effect will strip your chance of earning the "Hardest Difficulty Playthrough" achievement if you change the difficulty setting *at all*, even *once* through your gameplay. Even going so back far to StarCraft, you won't be scored if you entered a cheat: you'll only be yelled at with the word "cheater!!!" summing up your whole score.

More and more games, while still allowing you to do whatever the *#%@ you want, are still reminding players that there is still a threshold of skill maintaining their game. They're telling players they'll only give them their "pat on the back", their achievements recognized, if they *don't* use the bullshit cheapshots along the way.

That's something ANet has failed to follow through. You're not ever pushed to learn more about your character. You seldom benefit for actually thinking of something creative. They don't want you to play all that their game has to offer, to learn and see all of these skills your class is capable of, to actually see where you need improving: PvE skills and consumables have seen to that, the tank-and-spank method just adds to the problems.

What you don't seem to grasp is that this is terribad game design.
It's not just about playing how you want - it's cool if you can provide that - but it's also about maintaining the meaning of the game. That's what Guild Wars' PvE has lost. If you want an equivalent scenario in another game, it's like having every mission in your favorite strategy game give you unlimited resources and have all the buildings for you at the start of every mission. By following your logic in your thread, this is actually good for the game. So why don't we see every developer immediately hopping on this?...Because it's *bad* for the game.

What you have to do is show me why maintaining a balance in PvE won't encourage people to look at more choices. You have to explain why only having a *few* skills far above the rest is better than having a whole lot more be on the same level.

If you can show me a point in having imbalance, then I will here after stop posting on these forums. Show me why variety is bad, and why we should only stick to only a couple playstyles in a sea of potential thousands.

The rest is another half. On that half you still have skills like [[never rampage alone], [[draw spirits] and [[triple shot].

So basically the skills you are talking about are [[Save yourselves], [[There's nothing to fear] and [[cry of pain].

[[cry of pain] is not much without a full team of those and a tank. [[Save yourselves] is actually an alternative to tanking. Yes its powerful, but it is still quite the rare animal. [[There's nothing to fear] is a rare animal again that you don't see outside paragons, although its quite nice on [[mind blast] eles.

[[Pain inverter] is quite the noob skill.


I don't think whey they designed skills like [[obsidian flesh] and [[defy pain] they weren't envisioning that kind of play.



First, I play with another person.

Second, don't assume you know what skill or lack of it I have, since you don't know me.

Third, you are assuming most people play in groups or that people should play in groups.

First I've no say in Anet decisions. I don't want to maintain or not anything. Nor did I create tanking skills of pve-only skills.

All the rest is something about you wanting to be distinguished for defeating the AI in a way you consider more skillful.

Guild Wars is really an unsuccessful game. Bad design I guess...


The only difference is that in this game you can choose if you want all the buildings and infinite resources or not.

The difference between you and me, is that i don't care if other people want all the buildings and infinite resources since I'm not playing against them. You, on the other hand, want them to not have rewards that you have.

You and other just want to tell other people: If you use consumables and PvE-only skills you cant have the same rewards.

I also don't care if people can farm a certain type of item. Ive always been against including stuff that is so rare it might not even be there. That only encourages farming.

You are right. Lets start BY BUFFING ALL UNUSED SKILLS FIRST. Then we we will talk about nerfing the overpowered ones.

HM actually cripples variety - Eles damage? Meh. Pets? Boooo. Interrupts? LoL. Degen? RoFL.

And DoA, ELITE OF ELITENESS? Enchantments, hexes and conditions not allowed!!!(vs Mallyx).

Unfortunately, we can't split the world in 2, one where PvE-only skills remained and another where PvE-only skills and consumables were removed. So we will never know.

Given that you don't think it matters what other players have, or how easy it is to get things, do you think that players should be able to instantly be granted any item in the game they wish (bound to account, so can't be traded)? Maybe even for a small fee. If this option were made available, do you think this would be good or bad for the game?

edit: Bear in mind that there are countless studies that show that people care primarily about relative wealth, not absolute wealth.

I know that the people that want all the stuff now won't be playing any game for long regardless.

I also know people want stuff because its rare, look at the example of elemental swords.

It wont make any difference to me if the items people can buy, for a fee or not, have no impact in the game. If they get more powerful items as opposed to only "good looking skins", then i wouldn't be playing that game. And we already have what you described in bonus pack missions items.

But I guess I'm one of the few that think most obsidian armors (and a fair share of most elite armors), chaos gloves (and pretty much all other eotn gloves) and crystalline swords are ugly as hell and not desirable at all.

I always disliked randomness in drops. I would prefer if mobs only dropped materials or collector/bounty items, and all the upgrades/inscriptions/skins could be bought/crafted at fixed prices.

Yes, I don't care very much for economy in a game, as many like to say, "about skill and not time played" .

My satisfaction in games is either obtained by smashing other human beings (when I'm pvp'ing) or overcome the challenge presented with the given resources (and from those resources those that I consider fair. When a challenge requires a resource I consider unfair/dislike, I dislike the challenge).

I know the lure of many RPG games is leveling you character and obtaining more powerful items.

GWs is different. All items are the same and level is capped.

GWs was first about getting the skills, beating the campaign, trying all the professions, getting the skins (weapons and armor) you enjoy. Then they added titles to extend the PvE portion of the game.

I actually prefer titles like Master of the North and Legendary Vanquisher/Guardian, that you get trough your game play as opposed to titles like sweet tooth or LDoA, or the cartographer titles/skill hunter ones.

I guess all of this boils down to the fact I don't give shit and I'm not playing against any person in PvE. Sorry, but for me most of the other players, their titles, their weapons/armors, have exactly 0 value. They might not exist at all as far as I'm concerned.

I can't believe you are still going with this argument. It doesn't matter whether you are playing against them or not, it matters that you are playing WITH them even if you aren't in their party. IE: You are in the same world as them. This isn't the same as using cheat codes in Mario Bros.

This has nothing to do with rewards and everything to do with a balanced game. Yes people using abusive stuff to farm their rewards is a problem, but that is only a side effect of the overall problem that is complete game and difficulty inbalance.

You have also backed yourself into a corner. If rewards and titles don't mean anything, why do people constantly want them? Almost everybody I know playing Guild Wars is a title hunter nowadays...they must have SOME value right? And if they didn't have any value, then why do you have a problem with the overpowered stuff used to obtain them being nerfed or removed?

I guess you call a hard game a balanced game. For me, a balanced game is where both sides have access to the same tools. That being said, only prophecies is somewhat balanced. Is it easy? Yes. Is it balanced? Yes. But I know from personal experience that you will learn much more against weak opponents in a balanced enviroment with regular builds without pve skills than playing against level 28 mobs with monster skills and enviromental effects.


After you beat the game , you have 4 choices: 1.Titles, 2.PvP, 3.Just play from time to time or 4. Quit
Most people choose option 1. because they get recognition for their grinding in GW2.

Maybe because you didn't have much more to learn? If you are veteran from day 1 you pretty much learned everything important before HM was introduced.

Or maybe because you are not supposed to learn much from such mobs but rather apply your game knowledge and beat them with style?

Eh okay? That's not the point. Those skills can stay how they are. The aggro system cannot.

Talk to Dreamwind about this. If you can't find enough people for HM, gtfo of it and stay in Normal Mode.

But it looks like that wasn't enough for some people. Some people just wanted those rewards, ain't that right? Because that's the only reason overpowered crap exists right now: to appease those who want an easier time at the rewards. They obviously don't cater to you since you don't care about the rewards and can just stay in Normal Mode and make it interesting yourself.

...But for some reason that's not enough for you, since you yourself admitted that Normal Mode is "boring." Contradiction imminent?

Thank you. You just proved you haven't read a single word I said.

If this was God of War, I'd be saying the same things. You can keep claiming that I just care about the "loots" as long as you like to look stupid. If there was 0 loot in the game, 0 titles, single-player, no way of being recognized, I'd *STILL* care. Because I care about the game. Not me, not my "achievements", the game. And when you take that game from being skillful and meaningful to being mindless, hell yes I'm going to be upset.

If they simply had the game perform all the combos for you with the button, I'd be pissed. In Starcraft if they had the computer build all the right build orders for you and provided you with unlimited units, I'd be quite disappointed. The more you turn a game essentially into a screensaver, the less it becomes an actual game.

Good games (read: good games) keep an emphasis on skill. Some games are good even if they're easy, but it's only because their enjoyment can be found elsewhere and "being good" just isn't the point (Sims is a good example). But when it comes to other facets of gaming the skill threshold better be high.

Maybe it's because having to make your "own difficulty", you're "own challenge", your "own skill", is downright bad game philosophy? Why else would so many hundreds of titles on the Wii be getting terribad ratings?

Again: What we're advocating for is balance and maintaining the game. While having meaningful rewards is a part of that, I'd much rather see ANet insert merchants giving every rare piece of equipment for free than the shit we have now.

Overpowered skills break the game, underpowered skills don't. Start by what's breaking the game first. Not last.

I had a lot to learn when I started doing HM and only learned that protective spirit is awesome. I learned more while playing RA than playing hard mode.

What style? [Protective Spirit][Enfeebling Blood] and minionwall or["Save Yourselves!"] and all those high level mobs become less threatening than kittens.

You seem to think hard=balance which isn't corect. A balanced game allows both sides to use the same tools at their disposal, their choice of tools and how well they use them and skill in general should determine who wins. Prophecies is pretty balanced and that's why it's so easy. If they gave mobs decent builds that they can run well, the game would be harder and balanced.

Or do you have a different view on what balance is?

I agree with everything Bryant Again says. I want a continued challenge, presented by the game, not by myself - only when I have that, does the rewards start to actually matter.

Hehe. Spoken as the true owner of the ball "Play the way I say or I will go home with the ball and the game is over!".

OH mighty keepers of the sacred guild wars skill, dignity and honor, how can I play today? I beg you to listen to my pray ant teach me the ways of playing a honorable game!


Some people can't just understand GWs isn't MMORPG.

GWs its a freaking Single-Player game that needs to be connected to the internet to play and can be played in Cooperative mode. Also has a PvP mode.

Ever heard of B.net? Why do you think Anet its called Anet? GWs is an improved version of Diablo II.

The rest simply doesn't matter.


People wouldn't give a damn about titles if not for the lure of GW2.


Meanwhile I'm going to kill Mallyx in NM with my girlfriend (and she is the only reason I play gws since we are in different countries at this time, so its a decent thing to do together) and just to pain all the defenders of HONORABLE GAMING I'm going to use IMBAGON, Great Dwarf Weapon and Ebon battle standard of honor alongside 6 heroes.

Oh the agony you will be feeling while I open coffer of whisper after coffer or whisper, searching for miniature mallyx!

I agree with this.


P.S.:@ qvtkc - You want continued challenge - play PvP. Its the only place where you will find continued challenge, since while you learn and improve so will the opposition. Challenge in a PvE game only lasts til u beat the game once. After that is always the same.

Are you taking the human brain into account as a "tool", you know the thing AI will never have, thus *always* putting it at a disdvantage?

No. Seriously: why do you have to play in Hard Mode?

You said earlier it was because Normal Mode is boring which goes directly against what you've been saying in this whole thread. Do you not comprehend that? By saying "NM is boring" everything you've been saying, "create your own skill! Your own difficulty!" is INVALID.

If all you yourself could do was simply make the game more difficult for yourself - which has been the center of your argument essentially this whole thread - you wouldn't even be here. You don't care about the rewards, so why do you want to stay in Hard Mode when, if PvE skills were nerfed, you "supposedly" wouldn't have any problem because you can make NM as interesting as you personally want?

Also, by completing disregarding the rest of my point(s) you are displaying that you have nothing to respond to them - meaning, whenever you repeat yourself I will constantly remind you that "oh hey see all this you ignored? Yeah your post has become, again, invalid".

You can say "neener neener" all you want. The more you do so, however, the more your prove my point, the more you prove your selfishness, and the more your point dwindles.

We don't care how you play. We care how the game plays. Until you get over this fact we won't be getting anywhere in this thread.

I will give you 10 gazillion (whatever the highest illion is) dollars if you prove that to me.

No...it is a multiplayer game in a multiplayer world that can be played solo. You choosing to play solo has no bearing on what the game is. That would be like me saying Basketball is a singleplayer game because I can play it by myself.

LoL.

Why wouldn't I?

Hard Mode isn't a difficulty setting - it is part of the content.

If it was just another difficulty setting, then yes, you would have a point.

That is why I prefer to do the Elite missions in NM - there is simply no difference in content - you get a bit more but it is also a much worse design.

Titles aren't awards - they are content. In other games content is leveling up and getting stronger items. In GWs a big part of the content is getting the titles.


The creating your difficulty in NM is playing with smaller party than you have, not using such and such PvE-skills and consumables.

Its boring because I've nothing else to do in NM. I only do things in NM if I'm doing elite missions.

The thing is that I dried everything in NM already. Either I go play PvP, which I don't have the time to dedicate or I play HM BECAUSE IT'S REQUIRED TO GET TITLES. Titles are content not rewards for skill.

If you insist in confusing or considering HM/titles as awards for skill instead of content, then we will stay here bashing at each other.

You are just repeating that titles and HM are a reward for skill. I'm contradicting it by saying its content and should be seen like that.

If you, on the other hand say that the game isn't challenging for you anymore because of PvE skills and consumables, then you have the option of not using them, creating the challenge you want.

If you state that HM and titles are awards for skill, then I disagree since I see them as content. Simple and clear.

Not playing HM isn't an option if you want to do more stuff - titles require it. I'm not contradicting myself because I don't see titles as awards for skill.

In a game like Starcraft you play against the insane AI or not if you wish too. If beating the campaign against a harder AI unlocks some interesting video the normal one doesn't, then its content. The people not wanting to beat the harder AI and still want to see the video, have cheats.

Simple and clear. You bought the game, you should have access to all the content that isn't related to skill. PvE by definition isn't related to skill because its static - AI doesn't learn and doesn't change so it will never be balanced, only harder or easier - you require some skill but unless you are dumb and don't care, sooner or later you will beat it.

People that want content in GWs, and cant be bored to beat the harder AI, have PvE-only skills and consumables to access that content - and still atm the PvE -only skills and consumables aren't auto wins in all situations. just make it easier.

http://www.guildwars.com/products/gu...es/default.php

Game Details

"What kind of game is Guild Wars?

Guild Wars is a global online roleplaying game. Players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a mission-based game set in a stunning 3D fantasy world that offers excellent support for guilds. Because the team that developed Guild Wars had experience creating successful online game series such as Warcraft, StarCraft and Diablo, the members used their familiarity with the complex issues surrounding online games to create a game that is both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)?

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment. Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world. Players can meet new friends in gathering places like towns and outposts where they form parties and go questing with them. Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place. This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs, such as spawn camping, loot stealing, and standing in a queue in order to complete a quest.

Guild Wars takes place in a large virtual world made up of many different zones, and players can walk from one end of the world to the other. In Guild Wars much of the tedium of traveling through the world has been eliminated. Players can instantly return to any safe area (town or outpost) that they have previously visited just by clicking on it in the world overview map.

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat. Players can do battle in open arenas or compete in guild-vs-guild warfare or the international tournament. Engaging in combat is always the player's choice, however; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world."

The above is quoted from the www.guildwars.com faqs section to avoid confusions.

P.S.: Yes they say it is a competitive game, but then they say that the competition is on especial arenas or guild-vs-guild and not in the cooperative areas of the world. I reckon that today they would say GWs is A CORPG as in Cooperation or as Competition.

A brain isn't a tool.
Monster's AI is an inherent disadvantage that will always exist and doesn't justify things Anet done. As I said, instead of pumping numbers they could have given the mobs decent builds that they can run. If the game was ideally balanced then any mob fight will last like a pvp fight, I was in 20+ minute matches...
Face it, the mobs aren't there to win, there are there to give some resistance and die.

A balancer can change the tools but both sides must have access to the same tools, that's the first thing that makes a balanced game. A balanced game versus the AI isn't hard, in most cases it's easy. But in a balanced enviroment players will learn more that just "hurrr just use [Protective Spirit]/["Save Yourselves!"]/[Enfeebling Blood] durrr".

This thread is about the players sucking at the game, and the main reason is that they don't play pvp or if they play they use FOTM builds.

Pretty much sums it up bluntly. More than half of the playerbase really doesn't engage itself in any sort of competitive aspect the game offers. Close thread.

Re-read the OP, it's not what this thread was supposed to be about. It's been hijacked into a totally different direction, but I guess mods found it was interesting enough to leave it open. PvPers also use FOTM builds btw and the behaviour of quite a lot of them sucks (this is also one factor why some people don't engage in competitive play), even if they don't suck at the game.

So basically, it is an MMO but it has some differences from other MMOS. How is it not an MMO again? I just looked up the definition of MMO and it fits perfectly. You are basically saying since a Dalmation has spots it isn't a dog anymore.

Just step back and read what you are saying. Your argument is so bad that you have gotten to the point where you have to claim that Guild Wars isn't an MMO to support your position, because if Guild Wars is an MMO your argument falls apart.

Please show me where it says that. Honestly, your entire post just proves everything I have been saying from the beginning. Skill>time and competitive game and MMO. Guild Wars is supposed to be all of those. Your position is that Guild Wars should be none of those. Something smells.

I'd argue that the thread is still on topic. The original topic was whether or not the community sucks and if so then why. Many people here have already said yes and have moved on to the why in great detail.

That isn't my post. That is quoted directly from GWs official site (link is there before the wall of text and apologize if the post wasn't explicit and mislead you; fixed it now). If you want to tell the designers and owners of the game what their game is, is up to you.

Skill-> time isn't an accurate statement ever. Equal skilled players considered, the one that plays more time will be better. What that statement meant is that a player will never be at a disadvantage to someone else that acquired X item, because they play much more time than you do, if you are more skillful. Of course they were focusing on the PvP aspect of the game.

Obviously time played and repetition, increase skill, or at least maximizes the existing potential.

If you look at the thread about GWs vs WoW in these same forums (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10358509), you will notice a number of persons state what they like in this game is that they can play it solo or with other people.

MMORPGs require you to play with other people.

GW require you to have a party, human composed or AI.

GW is very similar to MMORPG without being one. If you look at it is a game that needs to be played online. Can be played solo or with other people in cooperation, or can be played player vs player.

If you look at most of the critics, by purists of MMORPGs, to GW, you will notice that they state GW is a solo/cooperative game with glorified chat rooms (outposts/ghs).


"Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat. Players can do battle in open arenas or compete in guild-vs-guild warfare or the international tournament. Engaging in combat is always the player's choice, however; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world."(quote from guildwars faqs)

I would say that they clearly recognize a Competitive Area and a Cooperative area. I would also say they linked the Competition to PvP.