The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

Superficially, yes. But game dynamics are still quite different.

Take consumables, for example.

GW has conset. Grail of Might for example basically increases health and energy by 20%. Full conset is about equal to adding two party members in terms of raw numbers. They are fairly expensive, but still very cheap for their effects.

WoW consumables are much more tamer. Full suite (food buff + two potions + scroll). players having 15000hp has access to consumables increasing it by 6% maximum and serious effort must be made. Damage buffs don't add more than percentage of damage thrown around in that game! And they mostly don't persist through death.

See, WoW makes consumables not worth it for playing most of the time under their effects. Even for harder content. Only dedicated raiders have justification for getting that little extra. For rest of population it is just "serious business".

GW equivalent of WoW consumables in raw power would be things like Drake Kabob.

See, it is not being made like wow that affected player skill. It is plain simple easy-button being added that goes far, far beyond imitating wows easy gameplay.

they also lower the amount of skill required

it doesnt follow skill > time

it follows time > skill, where time < 100 instead of 1000
(that means skill < 100 instead of 1000 as well)

*using made up numbers, but u get the point


is there not a way where we can have skill > time, where time < 100? but skill still stay > 1000?

Of course we can! Its called "lets not use consumables and PvE only skills".

Or you mean mean "I want more rewards for having more skill?".

Ugh...how many circles is this thread going to go in before the position of me, Bryant, snaek, and many others is shown to be logically correct?

PvP is dying because Anet chose to appeal to the masses.

We've gone from a game that was suppose to transfer the playerbase to the end game content, PvP.
(In Proph, all that was left after you beat the game was underworld and PvP or roll up another toon)The game overall was more simplified, with less to do, which led to the crossing over to the other half of the game.


From that --> to heroes, consumables, more Elite endgame PvE content, crappy attempts again at trying to bring the mainstream community more in line from PvE to PvP through Factions alliance battles, too bad none of that transpired into a healthy high density PvP game. Some could argue though that steps or hurdles between the boundary from PvE to PvP were not addressed in a timely manner, like being able to roll up a PvP char, and balth faction/unlocks being a huge factor.

When I've played a game from the first day till now and see titles upon titles, heroes, HOM, community bitching about bots in transitional PvP arenas and overall decline in GvG/HA, ya I'd say the community sucks and hasn't even played 50% of the game yet. I guess I could say I blame the developers for that, catering to that style of game, boring monster slaying appealing to the majority players out there.

Your entire post is spot on, but I think this part is key to the thread. The PvP of this game has always been where skill is determined. The shifting of the game into a more PvE focused game in and of itself has meant a shift in lower skill level. We can go back and forth all day about the skill level in PvE, but we are talking about the Guild Wars community as a whole...and PvP is a part of that.

In regards to solo farming, it's pretty much going directly against the game's intended mode of play but is now accepted by ANet.

Firstly, you say that like those are the only kind of people who have access to them. Secondly, expert players are so good that they shouldn't need PvE skills, and they make those "dumb" players stay dumb.

How about instead of repeating yourself here, you go back to the numerous comments I've made in response to passages which are similar to the above?

I've only started reading the thread but I'll just make a comment now:

I'm absolutely willing to listen to criticism from more experienced players; I started playing about a month and a half ago and I have yet to encounter someone willing to impart their knowledge to me. I don't know if most have given up or I'm looking in the wrong places, but it seems to me that a clash of attitudes on both parts (experienced players and noobs) has led to a no-win situation.

So you think that if Anet hasn't chosen to appeal to the masses (i.e., in a GW world without heroes, PvE skills, consumables, etc.), their original vision would have lead them somewhere 4years after the release of GW1? You think "we", players who joined 1-3years after the original release, would be playing and enjoying this game in its PvP part?

(well, since the thread has completely changed topic, despite the post above me trying to steer it back into the original direction, I shall ask the question...)

Who knows maybe? All I'm saying is I've noticed a direct correlation between Proph(Simplistic in design and endgame) being released and the game toting "Skill" as a lure, to Nightfall(a heavy PVE installment of GW), Heroes, titles, consumables, imba skills, and a direct decline in the PvP playerbase, it's there and anyone who's been around can tell you that.

Until is closed I guess.

Yes, the game requires less skill if you use PvE-only skills and consumables. Actually, if you use mending warriors it even require more.

Does that changes your game in the least?
No!

You choose the skill level you want between the options you have.

Is it best if everyone is awesome skillful?
Sure!

Is it feasible?
No.

So why not give rewards (or more rewards) for the more skillful only?

Its a game. Doesn't need to be like real life.

It should be ovbious from many GWG threads (not to mention the famous Bryant Again-Dreamwind exchanges ), I'm not questioning that. Your "maybe" makes me think of what Alex Weekes wanted to do with Fury (I don't know much about it, so could be wrong, correct me if I am please), which failed miserably after less than a year. I don't think that the PvP community (so to say, because in a GW world with the original Anet vision, there wouldn't be a PvE-PvP split) could have sustained the game and Anet. Don't take my post wrong: a lot of PvPers are brilliant players, but most are just simply too "immature" or rude to enable a healthy community to exist (drama aside, it's in the human nature).

When I see that:
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11067
I think that it's still possible to "teach" people how to play the game, but: 1) this guide is for people with more "skill" than the average GWer (this is debatable); 2) PvPer may not like to share their ideas because it'll lead them to loosing their egde due to people countering these ideas (or playing them better); 3) there's still in the "PvP community" a very strong mentality of "you have to learn by failing a lot and don't come whine at us for that" (yes you'll fail a lot, that's unavoidable and I'm not questioning this bit but the rest).

EDIT: 4) look at QQ, some people are so stupid, a lot have these cool signatures and/or cool avatar pics...and then you want to make fun of PvErs with chaos gloves and tormented shields? It's not my intention to flame anyone, but some truth have to be accepted first before we can have a healthy community, there are stupid people everywhere and we can't do much about them, pointing fingers is not going to help us...

The GW scene in terms of progression looks like a staircase with steps of varrying height, the last ones being very tall, and people standing on the higher steps simply saying that it's the fault of the staircase builder and other people should learn to jump, or stay where they are. I know it's only a game and people are free to spend the time needed to learn2play, but somewhat I feel we can do a lot more.

not exactly...

we want to play at a high skill level
instead we're forced to play at a low skill level and may choose to handicap ourselves to fit this level more appropriately
is that really choice?


@fril
i thought fury's failure had to do wit it bein a bad game
not from bein an initial success, and then completely turnin it into a single-player game from a multi-player game cuz they thought it would make them more $$$$

and yesh i do think that gw would have been a better game if it had stuck to its vision

Or until you respond to what I said here.

Self-inflicted challenge does not equate to a real challenge. I'd only gimp myself if I knew it would help me face a difficult task that *doesn't* require me to enforce my own handicaps.

Makes no sense.

If Anet remove consumables and PvE-only skills, the game will be better according to you.

If you remove those it isn't. Its gimpimg.

Explain me the difference, plz.

Against AI?

Maybe in a few years

Retype the third sentence (I have no clue what you said there) and then I'll respond.

Do you mean you can't tell the difference between a developer removing the PvE skills compared to me not using them?

Higher skill level, and all those overpowered PvE facets really lower that level.

The average player skill level in any game is directly dictated by the enforcement, not choice, of maximum difficulty to attain commonly desired goals and/or rewards.

Throw a shotgun into the middle of a knife fight and observe the results.

Nope.

My game without PvE only skills and consumables by my decree is the same as Anet without those, with the exception I can use them if/when I wish.

Let me rephrase the last post.

If Anet removes pve only skills and consumables the game will be more challenging and requires more skill.

If you remove those from your game by your option the game won't be more challenging?

Cause that doesn't make sense.

People that are really interested to play PvP, will work to attain the skill required and the only way to do that is by playing PvP and not PvE, regardless of skills or consumables existing or not.

And GWs isn't a game where starting PvP, especially GvG, is easy. Most noticeable because it requires a 8 player team and builds.

You want to get new blood in PvP? You want skill?

Get a RANDOM GvG. How?

Have 2 team templates. People join a Random GvG, are assigned to one of the positions available and have an assigned build and equipment.

People will learn those basic builds and basic GvG tactics.

Still requires in game voice.

It is also related on the number of players. I bet small games have higher average skill per player.

That is if you want to make people play with you or PvP.

Otherwise, why are you messing with people PvE game? It is none of your business.

People don't play PvP because it is either stupid (arenas) or the entry level is too high (GvG), not depending exclusively on you and your will.

I am sorry that some people here on the forum are more interested in arguing amongst themselves than stopping to answer your question.
May I ask if you are in a guild? If you are then just don't be afraid to ask questions. A good guild has members who will be glad to you soame tips and help. If they don't go find one that will.