The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

The balance between monster and player is how you make-up difficulty curve, if I'm reading you correctly.

And not having everything balanced limits that greatly.

Because you'd be balancing them based off of what we have right now: OP PvE skills and consets. I'd agree more with simplifying the NM areas, though.

Firstly, what's the point of HM if you're just to make it as easy as the NM?

Secondly, again you're assuming that all we want to do is nerf PvE skills and consets and that's it.

The reason a top GvG team went with the HT is part of the reason it needs to be nerfed: pretty hard to think outside of the box when you know that there's something that will always work. We have even more of that now with the holy trinity still untouched and further with PvE skills and consumables.

Step by step.

This only emphasises that how broken the paragon class is if it needs to rely on PVE skills to be effective. Which in turn emphasises how great and well thought proph was where all the characters were homogenous.

That means that those areas were badly designed from the start...

Yes they were and are.

And that is why consumables and PvE-only skills exist.


So, they RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed it first time. The solution they came is a crappy one. So now people are expecting them to go fix it after remove pve-only skills and consumables?

@Bryan

If there is a fix to this situation, which I don't believe exists, both these problems need to be addressed at exactly the same time.

Otherwise you are just replacing the problem with a slight variation of it.

Read: The main problem was the creep of power in the mobs and then the following power creep on the regular skills then the pve-only skills and then the consumables.

No one here is saying that those aren't powerful. Some are extremely others not really, but that is beside the point.

In a game with more depth, Mobs would be harder due to builds and not to stats and artificial monster-only skills and environmental effects (read their own consumables).

Kostolomac has the right idea - better designed more challenging mobs aren't necessarily harder compared to stat buff mobs. Probably they are easier, but they would play (or emulate) a lot more similar to humans.

Avarre states the same.

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game harder?
Yes

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game more skillful?
No.

If the point is to make the game harder then it will work. Creating mobs that take only 1 damage per hit and steal 1000 life per attack will do that too.

If you want to increase the skill required to play GW and make it closer to the skill used in GvG, then this won't do it. You need to treat this at the same time because they are the same problem.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't like challenging games. I'm just tired of mistakes. If you want to make it right, then do it in a single step and for the rights reasons.

...

And again I say, apparently having the players as stupid as the mobs is just as skillful as trying to put together builds to challenge the areas (bear in mind that the holy trinity didn't go away).

The point is not to make the game harder. The point is to make the game more balanced. Snaek's said it, Dreamwind's said it, Avarre's said it, I've said it. If the byproduct is that the game is harder then oh well, the plus side is there's nothing you need for completing those areas besides vanity.

PvE had many problems before all of this bullshit was added to it. ANet then multiplied the problems tenfold by completely ignoring them and adding more problems. What we want to tackle first are the PvE skills, consets, etc. before we start fixing the deeper dish.

You're not disagreeing with us at this point, you too want the game to be more skillful. We need to get rid of the tools being given to the potentially skilled players before we look at how best to tackle with everything else. At this point, a game where both teams have overpowered abilities with one team having a total advantage (human side with brains) is far worse than one side having intelligence and the other side having brawns.

While we sure would like all of this to happen all at once, you yourself said it's gonna have to be done "step by step" (or have you flip-flopped?), be it implementing the changes step by step or developing them one at a time and releasing all at once.

Generally, when you balance something you take in account the high end first.

New players don't start with consumables and PvE-only skills.


We need to get rid of the need for those tools. Those tools are mostly being abused by skillful players to farm or being used by players to remove grind time for titles.

Removing those tools will only change where/what they are farming. The way to deal with farming is improving drops for general play and dealing with the skills that allow for farming (mostly PS, Spell breaker, Shadow Form) with both changes to those skill paired with better builds given to mobs.

Curiously, farming is the type of play that attracts pugs.

I reversed the "step by step" snaek and you were throwing - by saying change "the areas in question first and only then the skills/consumables step by step" - and send it back to you.

I prefer releasing at once.

I guess it will be called GW2 though.

Making GW2 free of the mistakes GW suffer from is worthy enough.

Nor do they start in the later areas of the game, or stick to HM or the elite areas. They are new, afterall.

All of what we're talking about concerns largely those who want a bit more out of their game in areas much later within the campaigns. Everyone else is fine.

Here is the problem: there was never a need for those tools. The only things you really "need" in this game are skills and max level equipment. Every single thing after that is simply a want.

And if we wanted to reduce the time required to get those titles, then the answer to that is simple: reduce the requirements for them. Or just simply give us the titles, honestly anything is better than what ANet's done to "help" grinding.

And still, these titles are a want. They're not attunements to get into another area, they're rewards with next to no benefit. There's nothing pushing you to get them besides saying "look what I got, guys!".

Okay, but you don't give us any reasoning for doing so.

Because 1 quality product is certainly better than 2, amirite? Completely disregarding a game is good, ja?



(hint: no and no.)

besides the fact that anet doesn't have the dev power to release everything at once...

even if they did, nothing is perfect. do you realize how many products receive revisions? updates? patches? fixes? even before release, products go through concepts, mock-ups, alphas, betas, etc. do you really expect them or anyone to achieve perfect balance on first release? also, are you saying your against anet doing monthly updates to gw1?

I just have to say many of your posts in this thread have been brilliant...you keep taking the words out of my mouth (especially your post about the absolutes). +1

I think Fril sees this by now but I just want to reiterate...it isn't that we don't want people to get better or to not teach them to get better. It is a noble cause. The problem is almost nobody except you really sees the point anymore. There are so many people in this game and this thread who desire a low depth game where growing isn't required. They want the "choice" to not be skilled if they don't have to (especially if the difference between skilled and nonskilled is very low), and many people if given that choice will take it. I don't think it works anymore BECAUSE what Avarre said in his post has happened to the game. That is my opinion I hope I got across by now. I'm sorry we "wrecked" your thread.

Go ahead and make your guide though...nobody is going to stop you and maybe you will prove us all wrong. I think you'd be better off waiting for GW2 though, because IMO GW1 nowadays is a lost cause in this department.

Improvavel I've disagreed with 95% of the things you've said in this thread. About the only things you've said that I agreed with was that removing PvE skills and consumables alone wouldn't fix the game, that the band aids didn't work, and that some areas were poorly designed. I agree with you! We are just saying that is the beginning...just like nerfing Ursan was the beginning. The problem is Anet has mostly given up on GW1, but that doesn't stop us from pointing out the flaws they have made in hopes that GW2 won't have the same flaws.

BUT...you saying Avarre's post was clever and then posting everything you have been posting in this thread is a joke. Almost every single thing you have said in this thread goes directly against what Avarre was saying. He says PvP and PvE should be closer together...you said them being closer together is bad for the game. He says overpowered stuff ruined the game...you say god mode and 10 billion damage would be ok.

I don't want to speak for Avarre or anybody else much, but I could sit here and type an essay on how everything you have said in this thread is probably the exact opposite of what people like him think. Same thing goes for Gun Pierson (who has I guess given up posting) and a few others in this thread as well. In fact I was browsing that letter to Anet thread, and I noticed a lot of people in this thread agreed with that letter. The problem is the same people are in this thread posting things that go directly against what he was trying to say, and I find it quite sad.

Which I still agree with except for the part about them not playing the game. I think anybody should be able to play the game and have fun. I don't really want to get into that too much though. I'd rather stick to my previous point that changes to the game have really contributed to the problems that this thread was talking about.

"Tankway" is just as boring and skillless as ursan was, player gets aggro others nuke it hell out of them, rinse and repeat. If you wasn't a nuker/tank/monk then it was basically gtfo

Tankway can be argued that its an of abuse in its own right, but its accepted as a play style by the masses. Just because it takes longer then ursan/insert broken builds/skills here, thats a balanced and skillfull way to play?

Theres always been unbalanced/skilless ways of playing in this game, its just the community accecpt it as a way of play or they ignore it, then they scream foul when a build/skill comes along that pushes the boundaries that little further.

Spot on.......

While I totally agree that the game would be better if it were more balanced..... it will never happen.... as soon as you think that it is, somebody thinks of a way round it....

I will also go as far as to say Guild Wars can never be Skill > time
(Not even sure if it ever was)
Why cant it be? Wiki... simple as that... want to do something... go search on Wiki and do it.....
If there was one single factor that has taken the "skill" out of GW it is Wiki.

So in essence, it is the skilled players that have taken the skill out of GW by sharing their knowledge on Wiki

I think it was "skill > time" for a brief period after the initial Prophecies release.

First, and again, I'm not the one holding or telling Anet to do any updates or not.

It isn't like they come here and see "That bryan and others dudes have compelling arguments lets change", then I and others come and say our opinion and Anet goes "ah, after all lets not change because Improvavel and others also give compelling opinions".

So we can pretty much be here talking and trading arguments, chances are nothing will happen.

For that reason we can talk about ideal scenarios, because if they change at all, they will go all the way. If don't change they won't change at all.


Good you say that. Apparently and after reading some of the posts in this thread, I had the impression it was PvE-only skills and consumables causing the community to suck.

It isn't. The only time people were playing the elite areas in prophecies were when there wasn't any others. Still many were 55 farming.

The only time when people were doing the elite area of factions was when they were the new elite areas and after everyone got access to them. Still many were farming, 55 or otherwise.

The only time poeple were truly playing DoA was during ursan blessing. Still many were farming 55/600 or otherwise.

People don't play dungeons. They 600 farm them.



Exactly. Don't say that around dreamwind though :P

Since, as you say, you don't need those tools, why you use them?
You say those tools make this game mindless and reduce is depth. Why don't you stop using them and use the builds available without those consumables and PvE-only skills?

That is what I don't understand. Today you will go and use the consumables and PvE-only skills and say the game isn't interesting. If tomorrow Anet removed those you would be like "Great game again".

Why don't you do that already and need Anet sanction?

Because of honor of the game? Because you want to feel you are in a game that is hard and people need to spend time to learn it (even though skill>time)?
Sorry but that is stupid.

If it is because you can't find enough people to play it like that, well, I already told you that me and my girl don't use consumables and only use pve-only skills to make up for heroes flaws. Dreamwind don't even use skills that have pve/pvp versions. Other people in here dislike those too. Guess we have enough people to start a guild - we can call purist guild or whatever.

We can actually do the stuff with and without and provide feedback to anet.




Options. You have the option to keep your swimming pool or not. Removing those things you are just limiting the other people pools without solving all the stuff.

More, you are proposing to both remove PvE-only skills and consumables without even testing without one of the options first.

TAM alliance finished The Deep HM without PvE-only skills and without SF tanks or obby tanks in about 25 minutes, due to consumables.

While PvE-skills are surely powerful (some aren't that much, but ok), and many builds use 3 of those, other builds don't use or use only 1 or 2 - my warrior generally runs whirlwind attack only and my monk seed of life sometimes, for example - consumables are so much more.

Consumables give boosts equivalent to skills and can't be removed or interrupted. AND DON'T TAKE SKILL SLOTS. Sure, PvE-only skills don't require attributes, but at least are limited to 3, so they are competing with each other and replace other skills. Consumables just go there and save space for other stuff.

I bet PvE-only skills without consumables will be much less powerful.

2 is better than 1, yes. But 1 is better than 0.

Avarre and I said overpowering the mobs to make them more difficulty make the gap between PvE and PvP bigger.

Splitting PvE/PvP skills in the current context of mobs being ridiculous overpowered in term of stats should be done from the start.

The ideal though, was keeping the mobs in range of humans. FoW shadow mobs are ridiculous when compared to Anur mobs, or if you prefer, Anur mobs are ridiculous overpowered.

No, I didn't said that. I said it wouldn't ruin the depth of the game for me since I wouldn't use it. And Avarre's overpowered included the stats of the mobs.

That is different.

I also said the dupe of armbraces didn't affect my game while you said, somehow and the only way I see was if you bought one, it affected the depth of your game.

Would you use god mode if it was in GW? If you knew a cheat that was undetectable in PvE, would you use it?

I wouldn't. It would just ruin my game.

Apparently you said that you wouldn't use those either because you said you don't use PvE-only skills and consumables and not even pve/pvp split skills.

See, you can choose too without needing a leash. Lets other people choose for themselves. (And no, I'm not asking Anet for a god mode. Wouldn't affect me but there is no reason to bring it on.)

If Anet can solve all the problems and bring the game back to the state PvE mobs are close to what humans would do in PvP (and that will include nerfing the stats of the mobs, while changing their builds and team composition), then yes you can strive for skill and for honor of the game, because the game won't have wounds that need first aid bandages.

starting to go in circles again... asking questions we've already answered 100 times already...

i really don't like this attitude of "nothing will be done, so don't bother to try." honestly, if you don't want to try and promote positive change, then just stay neutral. by arguing, it makes it sound like you don't want positive change to happen at all.

the way i see it (and i could be wrong, please do not take offense), is that you are very isolated in the game. you have very little understanding of the word "community" because you mostly play just by yourself and your girlfriend. you do not care about the economy. you use a very limited set of skills, very rarely trying out new things. you like your current situation and just want to be left alone, and therefore do not want any change even if it will be good for the "community". until you understand that this is a community, will we be able to have any meaningful discussions.

kind of brings a whole new meaning to "does the community suck?"

Your opinion.

My opinion from you is that you don't have a notion of what most of the players are doing.

They aren't using cryway, or consumable clearing HM elite areas.

They are grinding titles. They are farming UW. They are farming dungeons.

Some have so little understanding of the game they "buy" HM missions or vanquishes regardless PvE-only skills and consumables.

If you attack me instead of my points of view then I will just say you are an elitist and your only interest is to reduce the available amount of skins to boost prices so you can profit!

i chose to not discuss the points made because we've already discussed them 100times over--see "circles" comment.

and yes i do understand that many people farm/grind. i have mentioned it many times. have you not read any of my posts? these are some of things we are trying to promote a change for.

The game is there to be played. I respect farming as a gameplay decision, but it's not something that should be vastly superior to regular gameplay. That's why I no longer disagree with loot-scaling.

On a similar note, it's why I don't have as big of a beef against the Holy Trinity party configuration: works, but slow as balls. It still needs to be fixed, though.

Because unfortunately, I don't have the capabilities to make balancing changes to the game. And unless you can give me a compelling reason against it, last I recalled balance was a good thing.

Now repeat after me: I want to balance PvE skills and consumables, not remove them.
I want to balance PvE skills and consumables, not remove them.
You can't claim that I want to limit options when PvE skills/consets/the other bullcrap does just that.

Sure I'd like it if they were nuked and gone from the game, but not everyone else would. What they should be is balanced, and if you're against that then you're case is going to be pretty interesting.

If you find HM too hard you can simply play in Normal Mode in the meantime - I mean that's essentially how "difficult" HM was with PvE skills and consets. Granted getting those titles would be a bit difficult, but then you'd have to convince me why you'd "need" that perfectly super rare weapon or expensive set of elite armor.

Having a few options in a sea of thousands is not good design. Just because those other options are there doesn't mean anything when those other few are vastly superior. Why spend resources on one unit when there's another unit for the same price that can do everything the original can but better? (let's assume that they're also available in the same tier (to be easier, let's assume they're two of the very first units you can purchase)).

And yeah, this is the exact same argument we've had pages ago.

I can't say I agree with that moral viewpoint. It's also much more possible given that GW1 is still receiving updates.

Things would be different if GW was just as it is now at the start, but it wasn't. ANet needs to first undo what mistakes they introduced later into the game before they have the chance at taking in the deep dish.

The only thing you have been saying is : "nerf or remove pve-only skills and consumables".

Then you say it is to improve skills or to make people playing together, or to reward skill or to something.

You just want to nerf those and then try to justify it. Other people come here tell you why wont improve what your aiming for with and present arguments.

Don't agree with them its fine. I don't agree with yours.

Maybe? or Maybe not? If they start on a change, why would they not go on to complete it if ever they decide to actually do it? But what does what Anet will do have to do with what we are saying? Whether Anet applies the change, or keep it in mind, or completely ignore us, that's up to them... It does not make the plan that many are proposing become suddenly bad.

Nobody said you were. But that does not mean that arguing about semantics suddenly become a good argument.

I think you just answered the question you gave me earlier just here yourself.
So, maybe we can actually talk about what is good for the game and not bother with useless details like how or whether the fix will be released overnight or by steps if ever they release the "fix" ?

And, Like what snaek said, you are going in circles, asking same questions that people have answered before.

Reread what snaek been saying, he/she has been saying that this was one of the many steps needed. Not the only one...

Yes. And I'm saying the same.

The only difference is that I say start with some other.

Additionally, they don't say what other steps will be. Present the all plan. Otherwise it seems those are the only problem and all else is fine.

I suggested more steps than just those.

I already said - make mobs power not stat based and build/team based instead.

That is the ideal. Give them 2 professions. Give them good team builds.

The game will require more skill and will be closer to the PvP style of play. It might not be harder maybe.

Removing or nerfing, depending on the poster, is a step. But you don't have to do it till all other things are in place. Especially because those steps won't change the game philosophy.

And a change in game philosophy is what the game needs. If you don't then why bother?

eh?

We've been acknowledging the other problems for numerous pages now. We've said "changing these won't fix everything else" in numerous posts.

Then you agree with me that buffing the mobs stats to make it more challenging is a bad idea? That is better to reduce their stats power, give them better builds and make them closer to human level?

If you agree with that and defend that the HM buffs mobs get are stupid, then we agree with the same.

Since that will require such a change, chances are it will never happen, but if does happen might as well come in a nice single huge patch, to make all community understand why it is happening and not to piss someone in between all stuff gets into place.

Good we went from the "but others games have various difficulty levels that are harder so we need to make the game harder till it lives up to its name" to "lets change the way hard in implemented".

So concluding we want:
- mobs groups with team builds;
- mobs with better builds and 2 professions;
- mobs without stupidly OP monster only skills;
- to get rid of stupid environmental effects, including the HM benefits mobs get;
- in exchange mobs get something like 1-2 additional member and slightly higher levels in HM;
- PvE-only skills and consumables either removed entirely or in line with other skills (just to make up for class differences);
- mobs recognize that their attacks are being wasted and change targets along with other AI improvements like casting by opponent class and not just weapon;
- PvE mob style of play closer to PvP teams style of play;
- make rewards for regular play equal or better to farming;
- etc.

Agreed. This is more or less what many including me have been trying to say. Different order, but whatever, the end result will be the same. So, you reckon that the rebalancing of pveskills and consumables would be much welcomed if Anet changed those design and builds of mobs?

I couldn't care whether they do step 2 before step 1 or the other way round, all that matters is the end result.

And including me.

If you read all from the beginning many just wanted to remove/nerf stuff cause that would make it harder and that would be enough.

I'm just against half ass measures that the only effect is depopulate the game.

The only problem I have with it is some scaling issues: Prot Spirit, Mesmers, etc. Aside from that I just see it as it's namesake intends: hard mode. Sure some builds could use some touch-ups, but bear in mind we're still dealing with an AI, something continuously inconsistent. Because of that, the only way you're going to find any sort of "challenge" is through "the stupid shit".

And honestly, from my perspective in Guild Wars, those are the only instances I've happened to find anything challenging as well. I never noticed the Charr really tossing too many hard punches in GW:EN save for when one of their Ele's starts to cast MS or Firestorm. In the Realm of Torment in NF I only recall having "trouble" when I didn't kill the MM or when I didn't catch Call to Torment. In Kourna and the Desolation I think the only time I found it difficult is when going against a boss mob, but aside from that - even though they had decently configured and balanced team builds - I didn't see anything that popped out to me as "challenging".

The problem? All of those areas I mentioned actually have enemies with decently configured builds.

So the question is this: how much of a difference would we actually see? Given what I've said above, the answer would appear that it would be less difficult. Now I fully agree with getting rid of this stuff in Normal Mode since that's what would be called the "intended" form of play, but in terms of Hard Mode I can't say the same.

When it comes to the monster side of balancing, what really needs fixing?

He said just about anything that increases the gap (including seperating skills and adding PvE only skills and items) is bad for the process. You want a complete PvP/PvE seperation. Its ok you aren't the only one though.

Sigh...we've been over this time and time again. We aren't talking about what does or doesn't affect you or me. We are talking about what does or doesn't affect the game. The game has a community in the same world as you. If you choose to not be a part of it that isn't the problem of the game. If there are changes that affect everybody that is a problem of the game.

We've been over this time and time again. Saying "don't like it don't use it" is a terrible argument on so many levels that I don't have time to type it out right now. If you think god mode would be ok, I don't see how you can agree with the open letter though. It surely doesn't agree with you.

We've been over this time and time again...we know that fixing the band aids wouldn't fix the entire game. It would be a big start though just like fixing Ursan was. These things are shining beacons that point to the inbalances of the game as a whole.

The problem here isn't that we aren't neccessarily suggesting things that WILL happen to the game, because we KNOW that nothing will probably happen. You probably have no idea how PvPers feel about that. GW2 is in full swing and GW1 is basically nothing in the eyes of Anet nowadays. The problem here (as I've already said) is that the franchise needs a fresh start and GW1 is a perfect place to point out the flaws that Anet has made in hopes that they won't make them again. The worst scenario would be Anet not listening to us and not realizing what they have done. The skill of the community has suffered because of all of this.

the reason i suggest skill balance as the first step is because that is what anet is most familiar with. if anet was indeed going to take action, skills would probably be the first thing they would touch. another factor is that skill updates is an ongoing process. you will see it in the 1st step, you will see it in the 2nd step, the 3rd step, 4th step, etc, etc.

i already acknowledged that revamping monsters is a good idea. if they decided to put in the tons of work required to revamp specific areas and specific monsters, most likely a skill balance will be included along with it. do not forget that monsters use skills to.

when it comes to gameplay, skills are generally the biggest influence in how its played, i.e. if solo farming skills did not exist, solo farming gameplay would not exist.

I thought this was a discussion on why the average player doesn't know/understand the game mechanics and insists Searing Flames elementalist is the shit in terms of damage.

Because if what you want is "stupid hard" you can also get monsters that only can lose 1 health per attack/spell and steal 1000 damage with a skill (a skill - skill not spell).

That will be hard as shit, on the verge of the impossible.

Won't make the average player more knowledgeable of the game mechanics though.

Those mobs that have "decent builds" are indeed harder and require better understanding of the game mechanics, unless you exploit them or use the overpowered stuff. 3 aataxes on the other hand, even hitting harder/being higher level pose no threat.

Of course if the overpowered stuff didn't exist and the mobs had builds like their own "sabway" or "discordway" spike, things would be interesting.

Do you know what items I have or haven't?

I may have duped armbraces and have 1000 of them sitting on my chest.

How does that knowledge or lack of it changes the playstyle of the game? Changes your builds, change the way you use your skills?

I thought this was a discussion on why the average player doesn't know/understand the game mechanics and insists Searing Flames elementalist is the shit in terms of damage.

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So my friends, if your objective is making the game harder through stupid shit, I will have to say that in my opinion it won't increase the depth of my game and of other people that think like me or the average understanding of the game mechanics by the player base.

You have the right to want it harder and believe it will be more fun. I've the right to disagree with it and think it will be less fun.

Please just don't say that making the game harder through stupid shit will make people more knowledgeable of the game and more skillful in the PvP sense of skill.

Avarre post was/is (at least the way I'm reading it, feel free to disabuse me of the notion Avarre) about creating both stupid "hard stuff" and both stupid "overpowered ways" of defeating it, because that increased the gap between the PvE and the PvP community. And that is bad to both communities.

The OP was why the community lacks knowledge of the game mechanics and prefer to abuse stuff instead and how can we increase the average knowledge of the player base.

Stupid hard stuff isn't in my opinion the way of achieving that. That was all I (and others that think like me) was saying and I was discussing the merits (or lack of it) of increasing the game difficulty through stupid shit from that perspective.

While the monsters you mentioned are easier, people learn more while playing against more balanced monsters that draw their power from builds and team composition rather than insane stats.
This thread is not about challenge , it's about people sucking and what can be done about it.
Something interesting, most people I know that complained that something is hard were complaining just about the charrs in eotn, and not monsters with insane stats and damage. What they they said about monsters like aatxes: "I just [Protective spirit] it lol!"
Giving monsters insane buffs and shit builds won't improve the player, he will just exploit some weakness and won't learn much.
Ideally, both us and the monsters wouldn't use pve skills and have insane stats, in such an environment (that is close to pvp) people will learn more than fighting monsters with 3 skills and stats that go through the roof.

The mere presense of something in the game changes the whole game even if you or I don't use it. Not your duped 1000 armbraces, but the POTENTIAL to dupe armbraces. The problem here is not many people would get those 1000 armbraces the hard way if they knew they could be duped. Same goes for overpowered PvE stuff. Not many people use lesser powered stuff if they knew they could blow through levels easier with the overpowered.

So for this reason not many people will care about getting better because there is not much point. The only depth nowadays is how strong the stuff you are using is...the only knowledge and skill required is how to get and use the strong stuff.

I don't know why you keep saying that we want the game to be harder. I thought this myth was blown out by Bryant or Snaek by now (I'm pretty sure it was). We want the DEPTH to be greater...that is there are super hard areas, hard areas, medium levels, easy levels, newbie levels. We want room for personal growth. We don't want the game to be watered down when we find stuff that makes 99% of the game becomes a cakewalk.

Personally I think you read it wrong...maybe he could come in here and clear it up. I understood it to be that almost any difference in PvE and PvP was bad for the game...ESPECIALLY the different skills because players have to relearn everything.

To me the blending of PvE and PvP in Prophecies and Factions and the PvE to PvP transition was the greatest idea Guild Wars had going for it. I think the complete split, like heroes, was both a blessing and a curse.

The only way we can increase the knowledge of the playerbase is how to more quickly and efficiently attain and use powerful stuff that abuses the game mechanics (so they don't have to learn them). That is called inbalance. There is almost no need to teach them anything that personally grows them anymore.

That has exactly nothing to do with game mechanics and people getting more skillful and move to PvP, though.

I agree with you those things shouldn't exist either but the existence of those
things don't change game mechanics and GvG.

But the 2nd part of what I said does (the inbalanced stuff).

Ok big opinion time...I honestly don't see much difference between duping and overpowered PvE stuff. The only difference I see is that one is intentionally put in place and the other isn't. One is an Anet sponsered exploit and the other is an unsponsered exploit.

And I don't see how you can say duping shouldn't exist but god mode and 10 billion damage could. I could get 1000 armbraces using either in probably the same amount of time.

I also don't see how what you posted from Bryant deals with my position. Hard mode should be hard...not a replacement for normal mode that it is now. The rest was about AI which a whole other topic I didn't comment on.

I think it's pretty horrible how this topic is still going and is the same 3 people arguing back and forth like nonsensical children. None of you are getting anywhere, you're all arguing the same stuff, no one is really saying anything to make a point. You're just arguing for the sake of it and no one is listening to anybody, let alone Fril. You basically took a topic, ignored what it was about, and pushed it in a completely other direction for your own goals. This topic wasn't about RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Hard Mode, if it should be hard or not, it wasn't about balance, it wasn't about PvP, it wasn't about GvG, it wasn't about the differences in PvE/PvP, it wasn't about monster imbalance, and it wasn't about "what we want in PvE". The entire point of this topic seemed to have smacked you in the heads, rebounded off your thick skulls, flew into outer space, and cried itself to sleep in the heat of a Sun about to go supernova.

The topic was about if GW players are bad because of the community's inability to teach, neigh, the community's apparent desire to ignore the responsibility to do so, and if so, how can we improve or change that? How can we improve getting the resources they need to them faster? How can we improve our ability to teach others?

Instead you all went on some maddening crusade on how the game sucks and how it is all ArenaNet's fault and how they should magically fix the game because everyone sucks at the game and basically proved Fril right. The community is bad because our resources aren't in good enough spots or aren't apparent enough to the average player, the people who teach just say stuff without explaining or don't do a good job of it, and most importantly, instead of trying to improve the community in some way, you're all sitting here stroking each others egos and blaming ArenaNet for everything instead of looking at the real problem.

This topic should have been locked a long time ago.

you get this locked and what will we all do for entertainment

You go QQ somewhere else.

This thread isn't going anywhere anymore, so closed.