The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)
Improvavel
Bryant Again
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lol in all your seriousness you're funny. Time to open your eyes.
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What I've been asking for in these last few posts is the evidence showing that you can pinpoint exactly what it is that the majority wants. You haven't been able to provide me with that because it's impossible. If it was accurate to judge the opinion of a minority to a majority then elections would be over in an instant.
Am I saying I disagree with the implementation of heroes? Hell no, I already said that on this page. What I'm saying is that you can't come to a decision based on a few separate and personal experiences and that ANet doesn't always know what to do with their game.
Right now, the latter fact is most easily evident: PvP community has been shat on, PvE has been horribly dumbed down for no apparent reason, and the problems go on. Threads like these are just supporting the fact.
I'm also not saying that Guild Wars is doomed. At the most basic level it's still fun, it's still accessible, highly optimized, and has "free to play" on the cover. No matter what ANet does to the deeper portion of the game, it's still going to be successful.
As I've been saying numerous times now, all that we've been discussing and hoping to fix are concerned with the less widely accessed portion of the game. Why was it a "good move" to disregard a more experienced portion of the playerbase in favor of those who are less so, especially when the latter can find enjoyment in games much more easily?
snaek
well usually, you know, the best place would be a mission outpost, saying "lfg mission"...did you even use party search?
go to something like venta cemetary.
count the number of people there.
try to form a group.
break it down into 3 categories:
1) wanted to group
2) said they did not want to group
3) said nothing
also...pics or it didn't happen.
btw, your "experiment" is pretty baseless. i can survey my house and tell you that 100% of those people think im awesome...
go to something like venta cemetary.
count the number of people there.
try to form a group.
break it down into 3 categories:
1) wanted to group
2) said they did not want to group
3) said nothing
also...pics or it didn't happen.
btw, your "experiment" is pretty baseless. i can survey my house and tell you that 100% of those people think im awesome...
DreamWind
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I'm a RTS gamer at core. Controlling several units, enhance their abilities and use them to complement themselves and achieve the goals is part of a RTS game.
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Don't see what is the difference of having 8 players running builds that complement each other and have 2p+6 heroes doing the same.
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
I like the overpowered hero builds bit. You can roll any areas with competent players much faster.
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Again if heroes are so good why aren't GvG 2 players plus 6 heroes?
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Because read the wind is so more powerful now And if you don't use them how can it ruin your game experience?!?!?!
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
And don't forget PvP nerfs also hit mobs.
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pumpkin pie
'who wants to pug and have some fun?' < if you say need help with quest i might have answer, not when people says lets have some fun cos it sounded like you leave the group. just a thought.
Bryant Again
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I just provided you with one example of what the majority wants: heroes. It was backed up with arguments and even an experiment, that's way more than the bags of air you have been selling in this thread.
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You go ahead and do one little "experiment", completely disregarding what anyone else may experience, and you hold it as supporting evidence? The equivalent is me going to my work, asking who they want for president, and sending that to Congress saying "here's obviously what everyone wants, make it happen" - and they deem it logical.
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I thought we were past that stage several pages ago. Numbers and money. It's a hard world out there.
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I've already given several out-of-my-ass suggestions that are much more healthier than what we have with PvE skills/consets: lower the difficulty of Normal mode, give the same rewards in normal mode as in hard mode, lessen the requirements for several titles...ALL OF THESE maintain far more integrity and game depth than what we have now. Worst part of it all? I thought of them on a dime.
These changes don't help the majority, they make them worse. The majority "sucks" at the game but ANet made that not matter, not only that but they catered solely to people who didn't care about the game.
So, no. What ANet has done is inexcusable.
Bryant Again
Why should they be put in a good light for terrible decisions?
Bryant Again
We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.
The least we can all do at this point is to spread the word and get as many people knowing about what ANet did as possible, and a thread with 20k views isn't too bad.
The least we can all do at this point is to spread the word and get as many people knowing about what ANet did as possible, and a thread with 20k views isn't too bad.
snaek
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Originally Posted by gun pierson
You're always welcome to do the experiment together and set up the rules. Btw the three continents are not my house nor do I know the people that play in them. Are you suggesting those players are not representative because they play with heroes? Or that people don't wanne play with me?Just checking as I don't follow you there.
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The only thing you guys are doing now is spreading a lot of negativism amongst fellow players and putting Anet in a bad light. |
regarding changes made to gw1:
i've already made my viewpoint on the matter... and that is to just hope for the best in gw2. in terms of gw updates, i simply want skill balances, bug fixes, ai improvements, game mechanic improvements, etc--things that they are already doing (albeit at low priority...still better than nothing at all).
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Originally Posted by bryant again
We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.
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really, if i knew bout this earlier, it woulda saved a lot of time lol. i woulda just been like here, read this so i don't have to explain it.
boko
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Maybe that is why people don't pug anymore - they are more interested in trading.
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And as for Gun Pierson's little experiment, it means nothing. You make a survey among people who are left in the game, who just can't be bothered with the new direction of GW and who stayed to grind titles, and you expect us to think that the result is gonna be unbiased? Your little experiment is 2 years too late, my friend...
In conclusion, GW is a mess. But no matter what Anet does, nothing is gonna change. People who left ain't coming back. They moved on. Anet decided to cater to soloers, and that's the population that they will get... Is the current GW a good Coop game? No, definitely not anymore. It is closer to a NWN or Baldur's game than anything else (i.e 1hero+6-7 npc)... and very far from being the CORPG which it was originally designed to be...and even PvP is getting bad, with its fair share of problems e.g ladder manipulation, too many exploits, the abomination that is HB, etc...
However, not caring about the current issues and saying that everything is fine is wrong, since the way it stands ATM, Anet is probably using GW1 to gather opinions on what to add to GW2. The last thing players want is for GW2 to be a continuation of the mess that GW1 has becomed... I hope they don't add the abomination that is PvE skills to GW2, since I don't see myself playing for hours just to level up 1 series of skills...+ in addition of having to level up too... This is going to be a nightmare....
Edit : Grammatical mistakes! ZZZzzz ...Corrected Pearson to Pierson... my bad...
DreamWind
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We tried, and under Guru law another topic regarding it would be closed. The best we've gotten thus far has been a nerf to Ursan and getting rid of most of the "time" factor (downside is this buffed PvE skills considerably, but I'd prefer that to grind). Everything else is still there.
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Fril Estelin
Your post illustrates what went wrong (for me, I'm sure you see it differently) in this thread: you were trying to spread a word, not listen to the words I was saying (I wasn't discussing Anet's responsibility in this problem, but the player's responsibility, where the vast majority won't take any responsibility). Sorry to have to say it, I said before I would leave the thread to you (with mods doing nothing, I'm not complaining, just stating a fact), but your post made me jump on my seat.
Gun Pierson
Yes you're right Fril and I'm sorry I took the bait. They are not here to debate, but to 'spread the word' in such a fanatical way that it even damages people who were in favor of Avarre's letter.
I reread that letter as I supported it and still do. I feel naive thinking something constructive could come out of it here, always with the current playerbase in mind as they still play.
Shame on you guys, you abused this thread and the ideas of people with good intentions. I even send a PM to Regina. Shame on me because I took sides for the underdog (the playerbase that 'sux') while at the same time I'm a vet myself and in favor of Avarre's letter.
Out of respect, I deleted almost all my post because I'm at fault too.
I'm in favor of a complete removal of this thread from guru.
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I reread that letter as I supported it and still do. I feel naive thinking something constructive could come out of it here, always with the current playerbase in mind as they still play.
Shame on you guys, you abused this thread and the ideas of people with good intentions. I even send a PM to Regina. Shame on me because I took sides for the underdog (the playerbase that 'sux') while at the same time I'm a vet myself and in favor of Avarre's letter.
Out of respect, I deleted almost all my post because I'm at fault too.
I'm in favor of a complete removal of this thread from guru.
EDIT
Bryant Again
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Yes you're right Fril and I'm sorry I took the bait. Bryant is not here to debate, he's here to 'spread the word' in such a fanatical way that it even damages people who were in favor of Avarre's letter.
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I find it interesting you point out to me alone, though. If you saw when I came back it was because of people largely in favor of keeping the game degrading, in favor of keeping the players inexperienced and jaded. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
I'm sorry that my discussion did not intersect with what yours, Fril, and that I often times went off-topic. But I'm not sorry for what I've said, because I do strongly believe that there are problems with GW that need to be addressed that would better the game in both it's quality and longevity. If we want the community to "suck less", we need the game to suck less.
It certainly doesn't help that many experienced players don't have something to care about anymore. I personally lack the motivation to teach players to get better because a. portions of the game have been "pushed aside" and b. well, it's not really required: Pick up some consumables and PvE skills and there's really not a whole lot you have to worry about, honestly. I could tell them about the millions of build combinations they can come up with, but I'm under the belief that if it's not worth using it's not worth learning.
hehehe, can't deny that that gave me a bit of a chuckle, though.
Rocky Raccoon
You are all right and you are all wrong, time to close this wall of text.
Improvavel
Ok lets say prophecies was harder.
Now lets analyze why prophecies was harder.
1- People knew very little about the game.
2- People had to rely on other people that knew very little about the game or henchmen with really bad builds to play.
3- For a large portion of the game you were limited to a very small number of skills.
4- Max armor was late in game.
5- Max damage weapons was late in the game.
6- Elite skills were late in the game.
7- 8 size party was only fron dragons lair onwards.
8- To salvage stuff you had to rely on luck.
9- Customization of armor, weapons and whatnot was a lot harder.
10- Ability to change secondary profession was quite late.
Now lets analyze why prophecies was harder.
1- People knew very little about the game.
2- People had to rely on other people that knew very little about the game or henchmen with really bad builds to play.
3- For a large portion of the game you were limited to a very small number of skills.
4- Max armor was late in game.
5- Max damage weapons was late in the game.
6- Elite skills were late in the game.
7- 8 size party was only fron dragons lair onwards.
8- To salvage stuff you had to rely on luck.
9- Customization of armor, weapons and whatnot was a lot harder.
10- Ability to change secondary profession was quite late.
Fril Estelin
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I'm sorry that my discussion did not intersect with what yours, Fril, and that I often times went off-topic. But I'm not sorry for what I've said, because I do strongly believe that there are problems with GW that need to be addressed that would better the game in both it's quality and longevity. |
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If we want the community to "suck less", we need the game to suck less. |
I do understand I'm on a very small group (mainly myself, group of 1) of people trying to get accross an utopic message of players taking the collective responsibility into their hands, and I'm facing the wall of "well not my job, and furthermore skill does not matter anymore according to Anet". But please don't bring back the old discussion on "Anet needs to bring back the need for skills and only then will I consider doing something", only to say that a group of people (I removed the name of quoted forumer to try to avoid pointing at anyone) did it to satisfy the Guru rules. So this thread is an artificial means to revive Avarre's thread at the expense of what the thread was actually trying to discuss (and I don't mean the thread title, I mean the OP and other explanation I gave later).
Maybe I won't get a reply to my post (another time) because I'm on the ignore list (or you're effectively being ignored me, like the point I was trying to make). Whatever GW2 brings, it won't change the community, that's the new scoop I can tell you about GW2!
qvtkc
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You are all right and you are all wrong, time to close this wall of text.
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Ok lets say prophecies was harder.
Now lets analyze why prophecies was harder. 1- People knew very little about the game. 2- People had to rely on other people that knew very little about the game or henchmen with really bad builds to play. 3- For a large portion of the game you were limited to a very small number of skills. 4- Max armor was late in game. 5- Max damage weapons was late in the game. 6- Elite skills were late in the game. 7- 8 size party was only fron dragons lair onwards. 8- To salvage stuff you had to rely on luck. 9- Customization of armor, weapons and whatnot was a lot harder. 10- Ability to change secondary profession was quite late. |
Warrior IAS
Prophecies: either take double damage, or do less damage, or don't use any other skills.
Nightfall: Perfect PvE IAS and you don't even spend energy on it.
Elementalist elite
Prophecies: Elemental Attunement maybe... or like Glyph or Renewal or something...
Nightfall: SEARING FLAMES
Monking
Prophecies: Word of Healing, solid skill I admit.
Nightfall: Healer's Boon oh my now your Orison outpowers WoH so much that they had to buff it to prevent it from looking plain silly.
Mesmer
Prophecies: You had to work hard to make it work.
Nightfall: CRY OF PAIN CRY OF PAIN CRY OF PAIN WHO CARES ABOUT INTERRUPTS LETS NUKE SH*T
Grj
What "too much truth" all i see here is mostly misguided views and sweeping statements made by nobody's whom are either bored or got nothing to do in game with alil truth thrown in here and there.
Again nobody care's when the 55/600 invimonk took off back ion the day, people scream for the shadow form underworld farm while all the time people can speed clear it in teams in 10-20mins, nobody cares about that.
Nobody cares about near all dungeons/quests can be run in EOTN in hard mode by a 600/smite.
People in this thread claim they care about the playerbase but wanna be selictive about it to suit their own agenda, pathetic
Now we have some discussion here about changing some PvE skills, touting the fact it'll improve the base skill level of "noobs" that infest this game when it will not change anything.
It's like a vast amount of PvP'ers asking for builds/skills to be nerfed all in the name of "balance" only for after the game update to roll in and 5 minutes later the next build to take over and the same people to start whining.
Some people use "balance" as an excuse to change what they're getting owned by/force a play style onto the playerbase or to instill a little amount of satisfaction to a small vocal minority when they resrict people doing stuff ingame.
Discussions like this are futile, the quote wars continues until someone gets bored/ the thread gets locked or the posters in this thread get "converted" to their way of thinking.
Why is this still going on, what does it matter? Anet won't/refuse to pull their finger out to make the changes... i got alil hope for the update next month but i very much doubt it.
Regardless these issues, it'll all be forgotton soon when the slew of GW2 info starts to come out and im sure even the people in this thread will throw out/disregard all the issues here and in other threads once anet start turning up the charm.
Again nobody care's when the 55/600 invimonk took off back ion the day, people scream for the shadow form underworld farm while all the time people can speed clear it in teams in 10-20mins, nobody cares about that.
Nobody cares about near all dungeons/quests can be run in EOTN in hard mode by a 600/smite.
People in this thread claim they care about the playerbase but wanna be selictive about it to suit their own agenda, pathetic
Now we have some discussion here about changing some PvE skills, touting the fact it'll improve the base skill level of "noobs" that infest this game when it will not change anything.
It's like a vast amount of PvP'ers asking for builds/skills to be nerfed all in the name of "balance" only for after the game update to roll in and 5 minutes later the next build to take over and the same people to start whining.
Some people use "balance" as an excuse to change what they're getting owned by/force a play style onto the playerbase or to instill a little amount of satisfaction to a small vocal minority when they resrict people doing stuff ingame.
Discussions like this are futile, the quote wars continues until someone gets bored/ the thread gets locked or the posters in this thread get "converted" to their way of thinking.
Why is this still going on, what does it matter? Anet won't/refuse to pull their finger out to make the changes... i got alil hope for the update next month but i very much doubt it.
Regardless these issues, it'll all be forgotton soon when the slew of GW2 info starts to come out and im sure even the people in this thread will throw out/disregard all the issues here and in other threads once anet start turning up the charm.
snaek
^your right...the game will never be balanced so its pointless to even try. i like your attitude.
honestly fril, your posts aren't that much better. our viewpoint is that the game must change in order to better facilitate a learning environment. why do you disagree so much with this and think that your viewpoint is so much better in helping the community? if you want to make a guide, then start up a guide, we're not gonna argue with you or try to stop you from having that happen; why do you have to rag on us for wanting to help out in a different way?
the problem with gw is that because of the game it has become, it has attracted player-types of that which do not have (or want) to learn to a high degree. i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.
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Originally Posted by fril estelin
Or we can actually make the community suck less, and not by refereing them to Guru threads and wikis that will teach them to mimic stuff? (note: some threads are pure brilliance as they actually teach you why you do things one way, and give you the skills to start learning by yourself, instead of the "read wiki and then come back") To which you responded by saying that the fact that Anet removed the need for skill make you care less or teaching: what about the actual players that will benefit from your knowlledge?
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the problem with gw is that because of the game it has become, it has attracted player-types of that which do not have (or want) to learn to a high degree. i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.
kostolomac
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the problem with gw is that because of the game it has become, it has attracted player-types of that which do not have (or want) to learn to a high degree. i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.
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No matter how you make it you can't learn much from pve because our enemies barely have any basic knowledge, increasing their numbers and stats won't improve them or us. AI enemies just use brute power, we just counter that and deal enough damage and we win. No matter how much ANET buffs them in numbers and stats the formula is the same, the execution is different.
However, if they made monsters to more resemble a pvp scenario, people will improve more even if the monsters are less difficult.
We want the majority to improve, don't we?
If ANET really wants people to improve they should balance out pvp rather than pve and then find a way to motivate people to play pvp (armor skins that can be acquired only through pvp would be a nice motivation).
Improvavel
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the problem with gw is that because of the game it has become, it has attracted player-types of that which do not have (or want) to learn to a high degree. i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.
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They attacked Anet headquarters and forced to do all the changes just to annoy the "Truly skillful players!"
Pathetic.
-Remove PvE-only skills and consumable.
-People go back to tank and spank with obsidian flesh and shadow form.
-Nerf those!
-People will still tank and spank with defy pain or body block with protective spirit and shield of absorption.
-Nerf those too!
-People will tank and spank with smiting monks under spell breaker aura.
-Those need to be nerfed too!
-People will still use minions to block and wards and +armor skills.
-Nerf those too!
-...
-And remove heroes because they are imbalanced and henchmen too because player skill is measured by team skill and not individual skill!
I still want someone to explain me why if a human monk is pre-protting a human warrior that goes lure is good play, while if it is a human warrior clicking on the skills of his monk hero its noob overpowered player.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Suddenly, not only is the game extraordinarily easier, thanks to skills that were so broken they had to be prohibited from actual competitive play, and were designed with this in mind. Yes, I know a lot of players wanted these because balance was laughable in your newer elite PvE areas. That is the problem that needed addressing in the first place. If the PvE and PvP portions of your game were closer together, it would improve cohesion among your playerbase – letting them separate would kill PvP by creating huge barriers for new players to join in, and more importantly for some, it would remove the collateral damage of skill rebalancing.
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As I've said the problem in the first place is the PvE mobs increasing power and then having to release first aid bandages.
You can't start by the PvE only skills and consumables. You need to do both at the same time.
snaek
@kostolomac
i'm not saying theres anything wrong with rewards. but rewarding farming/grinding/mindless gameplay is not the best move. not many people are transitioning to pvp because of this. theres just too many reasons and too many rewards to do low-level play instead. this is why we want to change the game to facilitate more skillful play. yes this could mean more incentive to transfer over to pvp, but also that skillfull high-end pve should not be neglected either.
why do you insist time after time that the only reason people do things is out of spite? i'm not sure if people have hurt you in the past, but there is no one trying to hurt anyone in this thread.
avarre stated one of the possible reasons that this happened, and that was that anet really just had very little understanding what they were doing. another possible reason was from a business standpoint, as it would bring in more customers and more money.
as have i and many others in this thread. i really don't know why you continue to argue? the problem is that avarre is being very generic, and we are being very specific. for some reason you cant see beyond the specifics and see the overall scheme of things that we want to basically: improve gw just the same as avarre does.
i'm not saying theres anything wrong with rewards. but rewarding farming/grinding/mindless gameplay is not the best move. not many people are transitioning to pvp because of this. theres just too many reasons and too many rewards to do low-level play instead. this is why we want to change the game to facilitate more skillful play. yes this could mean more incentive to transfer over to pvp, but also that skillfull high-end pve should not be neglected either.
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Originally Posted by improvavel
Yes kill the heretics! How dare they spoil such a good game!
They attacked Anet headquarters and forced to do all the changes just to annoy the "Truly skillful players!" |
avarre stated one of the possible reasons that this happened, and that was that anet really just had very little understanding what they were doing. another possible reason was from a business standpoint, as it would bring in more customers and more money.
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As I've said the problem in the first place is the PvE mobs increasing power and then having to release first aid bandages. You can't start by the PvE only skills and consumables. You need to do both at the same time. |
zwei2stein
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...
-People go back to tank and spank with obsidian flesh and shadow form. -Nerf those! -People will still tank and spank with defy pain or body block with protective spirit and shield of absorption. -Nerf those too! -People will tank and spank with smiting monks under spell breaker aura. -Those need to be nerfed too! -People will still use minions to block and wards and +armor skills. -Nerf those too! ... |
Because it was quite inefficient and much more slower than "skilled-way"
So, playing "skilled-way" had point and it was quite desirable to things that way. While tankway was still there for people who just "wanted it done".
Btw: completelly agreed of PvP split. I was claiming for long time that PvP influence is what made GW PvE great. Shame that nerfs were so often "kill the skill forever" type that made people loathe PvP-based balances.
Improvavel
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as have i and many others in this thread. i really don't know why you continue to argue? the problem is that avarre is being very generic, and we are being very specific. for some reason you cant see beyond the specifics and see the overall scheme of things that we want to basically: improve gw just the same as avarre does.
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Then people like DreamWind comes and say anyone that doesn't play PvP sucks and is noob and shouldn't play this game and whatnot.
As I already said, countless times, PvE-only skills are a bad idea. But so are environmental effects and monster only skills.
DreamWind and Bryan say those things are fair because the AI is stupid.
I say the more powerful those things and the more the difference between the power of players and mobs are the more people will abuse AI coding flaws.
They say removing PvE-only skills and consumables should be done immediately.
I say it should be done along the revamp of the elite areas that are stupidly designed and probably watch at some skills that have been nerfed for PvP and aren't a problem in PvE.
That is the main difference snaek.
New players will be far (sometimes closer) from consumables and pve-only skills so removing those things for their benefit isn't important.
Veteran players will be only (or mostly) interested on doing stuff those stupid first aid bandages exist for.
Improvavel
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Because it was quite inefficient and much more slower than "skilled-way" So, playing "skilled-way" had point and it was quite desirable to things that way. While tankway was still there for people who just "wanted it done". Btw: completelly agreed of PvP split. I was claiming for long time that PvP influence is what made GW PvE great. Shame that nerfs were so often "kill the skill forever" type that made people loathe PvP-based balances. |
snaek
^as far as i can tell, im always the one who has to be defending my viewpoints, not the other way around.
and the main reason we were arguing in the first place, was that we wanted to balance the overpowered skills, but you wanted imabalanced overpowered skills to remain. not only did you want them to remain, but you also stated that you didn't mind if there were even more incredibly imbalanced overpowered skills than we have now.
now the main reason we emphasize priority of skill balance before revamping of areas/ai, is that we have to take it step by step. skills should be easier to code (since they do it all the while) and should come first. yes, we would like to see a complete revamp of gw...but you said it yourself, they don't have the resources to pull something like that off. skills are also universal, they can improve the whole game, whereas fixing one specific area will only fix that one specific area.
you told us to gimp ourselves if we don't find the game challenging enough. believe me, i have been there done that. so don't tell me that if we balance skills first and hm second, that hm will no longer be doable. we can bring life back into the "easier" areas first....uw, fow, sf, tombs... this will take time. like i said step-by-step, you can't expect everything all at once. even the skill balance itself will have to do skill by skill. you can't expect all skills to be balanced in one single update--its just unrealistic.
and the main reason we were arguing in the first place, was that we wanted to balance the overpowered skills, but you wanted imabalanced overpowered skills to remain. not only did you want them to remain, but you also stated that you didn't mind if there were even more incredibly imbalanced overpowered skills than we have now.
now the main reason we emphasize priority of skill balance before revamping of areas/ai, is that we have to take it step by step. skills should be easier to code (since they do it all the while) and should come first. yes, we would like to see a complete revamp of gw...but you said it yourself, they don't have the resources to pull something like that off. skills are also universal, they can improve the whole game, whereas fixing one specific area will only fix that one specific area.
you told us to gimp ourselves if we don't find the game challenging enough. believe me, i have been there done that. so don't tell me that if we balance skills first and hm second, that hm will no longer be doable. we can bring life back into the "easier" areas first....uw, fow, sf, tombs... this will take time. like i said step-by-step, you can't expect everything all at once. even the skill balance itself will have to do skill by skill. you can't expect all skills to be balanced in one single update--its just unrealistic.
glacialphoenix
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Btw: completelly agreed of PvP split. I was claiming for long time that PvP influence is what made GW PvE great. Shame that nerfs were so often "kill the skill forever" type that made people loathe PvP-based balances.
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I mean, yes, you can go on about how the smart player will realise that you need balance, etc, etc. Yeah. You need balance. That's not something you can argue with. But there's a bigger PvE playerbase than PvP playerbase (I should think) - and it's far, far easier to cater to both by making the PvP/PvE skill split. Which is what eventually happened.
Ec]-[oMaN
Fril, really for what you wish to happen will never manage to see light.
This thread the longer is gets reminds me of this episode on the Fifth Estate. Where you hope people will clean up their act by giving them a safe haven to continue on in their destruction.
You can not expect players to get better when the environment around them is encouraging non-skill full play. Just like trying to kick a drug habit is much less likely to occur if they are always surrounded by the drugs and encouraged to use them.
This thread the longer is gets reminds me of this episode on the Fifth Estate. Where you hope people will clean up their act by giving them a safe haven to continue on in their destruction.
You can not expect players to get better when the environment around them is encouraging non-skill full play. Just like trying to kick a drug habit is much less likely to occur if they are always surrounded by the drugs and encouraged to use them.
Master Fuhon
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Or we can actually make the community suck less, and not by refereing them to Guru threads and wikis that will teach them to mimic stuff? (note: some threads are pure brilliance as they actually teach you why you do things one way, and give you the skills to start learning by yourself, instead of the "read wiki and then come back") To which you responded by saying that the fact that Anet removed the need for skill make you care less or teaching: what about the actual players that will benefit from your knowlledge?
I do understand I'm on a very small group (mainly myself, group of 1) of people trying to get accross an utopic message of players taking the collective responsibility into their hands, and I'm facing the wall of "well not my job, and furthermore skill does not matter anymore according to Anet". But please don't bring back the old discussion on "Anet needs to bring back the need for skills and only then will I consider doing something", only to say that a group of people (I removed the name of quoted forumer to try to avoid pointing at anyone) did it to satisfy the Guru rules. So this thread is an artificial means to revive Avarre's thread at the expense of what the thread was actually trying to discuss (and I don't mean the thread title, I mean the OP and other explanation I gave later). Maybe I won't get a reply to my post (another time) because I'm on the ignore list (or you're effectively being ignored me, like the point I was trying to make). Whatever GW2 brings, it won't change the community, that's the new scoop I can tell you about GW2! |
That’s where what Avarre said comes in, and I can’t say it better than how it was already said. People are going to outgrow things, and they’re going to realize certain things no longer fit them. And when they suck less, they might decide the game only fits people who suck. The suggestions to make the game fit growing people over sucky people are about the most useful things anyone could present to the company that's working on making another game.
Using the terminology in this thread when using the word "suck". Not using it to stir up an argument with someone who takes the label personally.
Improvavel
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^as far as i can tell, im always the one who has to be defending my viewpoints, not the other way around.
and the main reason we were arguing in the first place, was that we wanted to balance the overpowered skills, but you wanted imabalanced overpowered skills to remain. not only did you want them to remain, but you also stated that you didn't mind if there were even more incredibly imbalanced overpowered skills than we have now. |
I said you can balance overpowered skills. You just have to balance the other stuff at the same time.
And please don't take my remarks out of context. I said imbalanced skills don't affect my game or fun with it cause I can choose to not use it, while some other people insisted they couldn't have fun in the game anymore because of the imbalanced stuff but they have to use it to remain competitive.
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now the main reason we emphasize priority of skill balance before revamping of areas/ai, is that we have to take it step by step. skills should be easier to code (since they do it all the while) and should come first. yes, we would like to see a complete revamp of gw...but you said it yourself, they don't have the resources to pull something like that off. skills are also universal, they can improve the whole game, whereas fixing one specific area will only fix that one specific area. |
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you told us to gimp ourselves if we don't find the game challenging enough. believe me, i have been there done that. so don't tell me that if we balance skills first and hm second, that hm will no longer be doable. we can bring life back into the "easier" areas first....uw, fow, sf, tombs... this will take time. like i said step-by-step, you can't expect everything all at once. even the skill balance itself will have to do skill by skill. you can't expect all skills to be balanced in one single update--its just unrealistic. |
If the problem is pve-only skills and consumables you can stop using them.
If what you want is deny people the hard areas so easy areas get life back, then its stupid.
Bryant Again
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..To which you responded by saying that the fact that Anet removed the need for skill make you care less or teaching: what about the actual players that will benefit from your knowlledge?
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There is very, very little knowledge to give out that will actually benefit you. The rest gives you a higher chance of getting you killed. The players I have tried teaching that to didn't really appreciate that too much.
As Dreamwind said, there's very little reason to learn all of this stuff. When you get a game that doesn't get balanced you 1. learn the best build for your class, 2. get proper consets and PvE skills in the group, 3. kill healarz firsst!1
i.e. There's very little you have to learn to do these days. These days the "guide for success" wouldn't even fill up this post. You can't teach anything when there's little to teach.
Welcome to Guild Wars.
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Originally Posted by snaek
and the main reason we were arguing in the first place, was that we wanted to balance the overpowered skills, but you wanted imabalanced overpowered skills to remain. not only did you want them to remain, but you also stated that you didn't mind if there were even more incredibly imbalanced overpowered skills than we have now.
now the main reason we emphasize priority of skill balance before revamping of areas/ai, is that we have to take it step by step. skills should be easier to code (since they do it all the while) and should come first. yes, we would like to see a complete revamp of gw...but you said it yourself, they don't have the resources to pull something like that off. skills are also universal, they can improve the whole game, whereas fixing one specific area will only fix that one specific area. you told us to gimp ourselves if we don't find the game challenging enough. believe me, i have been there done that. so don't tell me that if we balance skills first and hm second, that hm will no longer be doable. we can bring life back into the "easier" areas first....uw, fow, sf, tombs... this will take time. like i said step-by-step, you can't expect everything all at once. even the skill balance itself will have to do skill by skill. you can't expect all skills to be balanced in one single update--its just unrealistic. |
What exactly would you lose with PvE skills/consets being nerfed, Improvavel?
Improvavel
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What exactly would you lose with PvE skills/consets being nerfed, Improvavel? |
What would you gain other than limiting people options?
Nothing.
So if you don't lose anything or gain anything, why change?
You nerf what people abuse, they will abuse the next best thing, so no skill gained either way.
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When I'm butchering thousands of monsters that are buffed to the moon and back, yes I would like a nice drop or maybe a title. Is that wrong?
No matter how you make it you can't learn much from pve because our enemies barely have any basic knowledge, increasing their numbers and stats won't improve them or us. AI enemies just use brute power, we just counter that and deal enough damage and we win. No matter how much ANET buffs them in numbers and stats the formula is the same, the execution is different. However, if they made monsters to more resemble a pvp scenario, people will improve more even if the monsters are less difficult. We want the majority to improve, don't we? If ANET really wants people to improve they should balance out pvp rather than pve and then find a way to motivate people to play pvp (armor skins that can be acquired only through pvp would be a nice motivation). |
I think the way you, bryan, want to tackle the problem will never succeed.
Bryant Again
Understandable if we didn't lose something with the introduction of all this dumbing down (depth), and if we wouldn't gain anything by balancing them (depth).
Which is why I've stated repeatedly that balancing PvE skills/consumables is not going to be the "end all be all" of fixing PvE, rather they're amongst some of the biggest problems. Just because the game already has a few problems doesn't give any excuse to break it further.
Wow, I've just been told that balance isn't good for games.
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You nerf what people abuse, they will abuse the next best thing, so no skill gained either way.
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Wow, I've just been told that balance isn't good for games.
Improvavel
What did we gain with tougher mobs, with higher stats and environmental effects (including HM environmental)?
More exploitation of AI.
Why are you so adamant on removing (or nerfing) consumables PvE-only skills and consumables, but have no word to demand better builds for the mobs?
No. I just told you your "balancing" wont create a more skillful environment.
More exploitation of AI.
Why are you so adamant on removing (or nerfing) consumables PvE-only skills and consumables, but have no word to demand better builds for the mobs?
No. I just told you your "balancing" wont create a more skillful environment.
Bryant Again
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What did we gain with tougher mobs, with higher stats and environmental effects (including HM environmental)?
More exploitation of AI. Why are you so adamant on removing (or nerfing) consumables PvE-only skills and consumables, but have no word to demand better builds for the mobs? |
In regards to "giving better builds to mobs", what can I say against that? If it makes the mobs more challenging and encourages more thought than why *not* do it?
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No. I just told you your "balancing" wont create a more skillful environment.
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Edit: almost missed this, thanks Boko:
A few overpowered facts doesn't limit options? That's the entire point of balancing: To broaden the choices, variety, options.
boko
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What would you gain other than limiting people options?
Nothing. So if you don't lose anything or gain anything, why change? |
Balancing the game does not necessarily limit other people's option.
You say that the end game (e.g DoA) areas are horribly unbalanced and that is why we need PVE skills and consumables. Agreed. Then, maybe what Anet needs to do is to actually rebalance those areas which was very badly implemented in the 1st place. But instead, what Anet did, was to provide us with PVE skills and consumables, and tell us that now you can complete those areas now. Happy?
By removing/rebalancing PVE skills or consumables, maybe Anet can actually tackle the real root of the problem which is the design of those areas itself, so as to make it more on par with UW of FoW, or even The Deep, i.e more balanced where the Tank and Spank strategy is the NOT the only viable option. So, instead of buffing the mobs with overpowered skill, maybe buffing them with better AI/skillbars and team strategy would be better. Would that limit other people's option? No. But would it be more fun now? No. It's not gonna be magically be more fun again since there are many more factors which downgraded GW, but this is a step in the right direction.
snaek
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Originally Posted by improvavel
That is why we argue.
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we want balance, you think we only want to nerf everything to oblivion.
while balance involves nerfs, it also involves buffs. directly and indirectly. it may seem like we want to remove options, but overall balance will provide more options.
we want depth, you think we want the whole game to be hard.
we want there to be hard areas yes, but we want there to be easy areas as well. you progress the levels as you get better and better. if theres only one defficulty level, theres very little room for progress and growth.
we want to reward skillful play and not mindless farming/grinding, you think we want to take away all the rewards from people.
if someone truly enjoys farming/grinding, they can continue to farm and grind to get rewards. but we believe in skill>time, the game should both facilitate and reward that, and currently they do not. currently there are hundreds of farming/grinding mmorpgs, gw does not need to try to compete with them. we are not trying to take away rewards or prevent people from getting them, we simply want to facilitate more options, specifically skillful ones, in obtaining them.
we want to bring back multiplayer into a multiplayer game, you think we want remove all singleplayer options.
again, you should be able to solo, but in the current state of gw, solo has become the dominant playstyle. i said in an earlier post that "gw can be played solo" with the emphasis on the word can, as in "gw can be played solo, but is meant to be played multiplayer." i would definitely would like to keep single player as an option, but please bring the emphasis back to multiplayer.
balance, depth, skill>time, multiplayer...i hope i didn't miss anything?
edit: boko makes a good point in that balancing skills allows the devs to better gauge how to balance the elite areas.
improvavel, change takes times. you can't expect everything all at once. i'll say it again, step by step.
Improvavel
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balance, depth, skill>time, multiplayer...i hope i didn't miss anything? |
Multiplayer - either people want to do it or they don't. If they don't and people can't anymore they will go away. If you can't find people to play with you maybe you should try harder. If you already can play with other people then I don't see any problem. And in my book 2,3,4 people is mutiplayer too.
Balance in PvE is between classes and options of playing. Not between mobs and players.
Depth is a very subjective and vague notion. What strikes me first as depth is options.
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improvavel, change takes times. you can't expect everything all at once. i'll say it again, step by step. |
Step by step.
Improvavel
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Maybe, a better game? And who said anything about limiting people's options?
Balancing the game does not necessarily limit other people's option. |
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10194416
Currently most of the duality tools are reserved to PvE-only skills. The regular skill options for this type of play have mostly been nerfed due to PvP concerns.
Mobs are stupid and dumb, but they have brute power.
Eliminate the tools for duality play and you return most of the time to trinity play.
Yes, PvE-only skills and consumables make the normal mode areas too easy, but new players won't have immediate access to them.
If need be, restrict PvE only skills to HM and GWEN (maybe the elite nm areas).
Otherwise all you get is Holy trinity - and again that was what a top GvG team came with to finish DoA.