Buff to Spawning Power

If you dont want to read this post, which has some rage in it... read the end of the sentence and move on, if its not broke, dont fix it!

Alright, just on this page, I think some of the ideas are BS (and there arnt too many because everyone is talking about SR). Reducing range of spirits? Comon. That would be a NERF rather than a buff. Sorry to sound rantish, but my main is a rit, and (not to sound ego-tistical) I am pretty good at playing rits.

1. Reducing range of spirits. If anything, from what i was reading it seemed like you were saying that would make it difficult because the battle would move outside of the range... NO if the rit is even half smart, they will try and keep the battle within range, and thus (in this case) putting MORE pressure on the spirits, and with the lack of spirit healing spells... isnt good. (Btw, this sounds more like a PvP change...)

2. Useing Spawning to reduce casting time of healing.... the good healing spells are already quick enough, sounds like your trying to make rits healers with healers boon or cons all day everyday. They dont really need it...

Increasing the healing would be nice, but emanagement to rits... THAT is needed. Many builds that are for rits almost always have some form of the emanagement, [Offering of Spirit] for example.

(who ever was talking about Necro MM's... Rits do it better as a supporter)

If they are going to reduce the range of spirit, i think it would be fair to reduce recharge, casting time, energy cost, and how long they last. OR they can make draw spirit be like the kurz/luxon skill summon spirits.

2. I think that is a good idea, but i would rather have ALL conditionals be if you are in earshot of a spirit OR holding an item. So essence strike would also give you energy if you are holding an item.

increasing your max energy while holding items would be really good. its not a radical change and it would be enough to make me actually invest in SR beyond the 3 points i usually just dump into it.

honestly im not expecting much. judging by linseys response on wiki they had nothing planned for Spawning Power prior to the huge wall o'text. All im expecting is maybe some SP skill buffs and elite reworks to tide us over.

2. That's what makes a Rit uniqe, But I understand your feelling
3. That's something you can prevent bij using 0 en set's like i do.(wand+shield)
changing the inherited effect will ask a lot of balacing, for now I will apreciate it if they make SP skills worth it, like I suggested on page 4

I would be satisfied if they buffed/remade spawning power skills...they just need to make them worth using.

Would Make RitSpike Too Strong

Here are my suggestions for Spawning Power in PvE:

1. Spawning Power is identical to expertise, but works for spells instead.
2. Spawning Power works like a lighter version of expertise for spells, but also reduces recharge time.
3. Spawning Power increases potency of spells (damage, range, duration, etc)
4. Spawning Power increases mobility, duration, armour, and health of spirits. At 0 Spawning Power, they can't move. At 12, they move as fast as a human. Health, duration, and armour, likewise, rise as Spawning Power goes up. This would make them have some genuine survivability in hard mode, and make them more useful for a mobile party.
5. Spawning Power increases Energy Regeneration. One pip for every 3 or 4 points in Spawning Power.

Regarding conditional effects: As has already been indicated, I think this is intended as part of the flavour of the ritualist. The theory appears to be that while the Monk is a little more 'spontaneous' and more effective off-the-bat than the Ritualist, the Ritualist, with a bit of preparation, can stack several conditional effects with each other to create a whole that is sufficiently greater than the sum of its parts to beat the Monk in the long run. Of course, current mentality of speed clears and the tendency of virtually every mission in Factions to be timed does devalue the idea of setup - and how much the theory translates into practise is up for debate.

In short, the intended difference between the Ritualist and the Monk is that the Monk can just do their thing with minimal setup. The Ritualist needs more preparation, but reaps the benefits from that preparation. In a party with a Monk and Ritualist as the backline, the theory would have the Monk providing most of the support in the first few seconds of the battle, with the Ritualist steadily taking over as the battle progresses.

Regarding reducing the area of the spirits: This is a nerf in isolation. However, the intent of such things is to propose a situation in which something else can be buffed without breaking the game.

One of the issues with the Ritualist is that the profession itself is not an underpowered profession. There's just little reason to be a primary Ritualist, which is why we see the well-known N/Rts and Ritualist skills being regularly cherry-picked by other primary professions in general. A big Spawning Power buff - whether directly or indirectly by improving the importance of the health of spirits - could potentially lead to the profession shooting into overpowered territory.

Of course, in the short term, if restricted to PvE, this could be a good thing - give people a chance to get to know the 'new' Ritualist, and then pare it back. However, in the interests of balance, we should be willing to accept a price in exchange for the gain.

So... Would you be willing to accept a 10% reduction in the effectiveness of Ritualist skills... if Spawning Power increased their effectiveness by, say, 2% per rank? (thus breaking even around 6SP, and a buff to primary Ritualists around 10?) Would you be willing to accept a reduction in the area of effect of spirits if that meant that within that area, you could provide protection that competed with a SY! spammer?

1. Rit's don't have energy problems, so don't make SP related to EN, it will cause A lot of nerfs.
2. Will also cause to much nerfs.
3.To hard to define.
4. I've also thought about mobility. but instead of movement speed for each 3 ranks in SP 1 spirit can move. so @ 12SP 4 spirits can move. And who uses more then 4 spirits? or 5 @ 15sp
5. same as point 1

We know rits dont have energy problems but right now there is no reason to go a primary rit because you can do it better on a N/Rt

Concentrating only on item spells and summoning rituals isn't the best idea IMO. There are many ways of playing a ritu as he's kind of a jack of all trades, but SP the way it is now, doesn't encourage it.
I played over 1160 hrs with my rit for the past year and I'm used to having 0 pts in SP, cause I rarely play as a spirit spammer (mobile spirits when I'm reeeally bored) or healer/supporter (usually have 1 spirit for energy management, and splinter weapon if there are any melees on board). I use a nice rt/n dmg dealing build, and I'm quite happy the way I am, although I wouldn't whine if there was a primary attribute I could really use.

<will sign any petition >

Unfortunately, that's true. If I could go back in time, I'd definitely make a n/rt instead :/. But I already maxed 24 titles, so I'm not really into the idea .

=_____=

This is only workable in situations where you either camp or remain in the same area for a prolonged period of time. In PVE where most battles last only a few seconds the battle would be over by the time you get your slow ass spirits set up.

Yes, I find that spirit binding is too slow even with the skill that allows you to teleport spirits. Not to mention that spirits often die in a shorter amount of time than it takes to make them. I realize that spirits were meant to be physically weak to prevent them becoming overpowered in pvp but in pve this is simply a joke... ok enough of that in case i get accused of QQing.

That said, I'm wondering what kind of builds people usually run in pve? I've been experimenting with different attributes but I can't find one that I like. I initially made a rit because I liked the versatility...it sounded good in theory but in practice I find that theres no good reason to take a rit over a monk healer or a rit over any other damage dealing class.

splinter weapon, ancestors rage should be stapled to your bar. anything else is filler really, with those 2 skills alone youll be pumping out more damage then an ele.

you can easily run a resto build though. usually i run another hero resto rit if i go resto, very good. i usually make the hero rit the spirit mule so i can just focus on healing. all you need really with 2 resto rits is a prot monk after that, even in hard mode.

If you know we don't have EN problems why insist on making SP related to EN?
Thing's like mobile spirit's,
Higher level creations,
Increase item spell's duration,
Alowing copies of spirit's.
Other effects then EN from spells.
Decrease recharge.

Not entirely bad, but the 10% reduction of effectiveness will:

1. Take far too much tweaking
2. Kill /Rt ANYTHING
3. FORCE Spawning Power for effectiveness.

However, giving Spawning Power a function that works entirely well at 6 SP is a good range to shoot for, as what currently would be a 12/12/3 Split between, say, Resto, Channeling, Spawning, could easily become a 12/11/6 for increased efficiency and making the Ritualist primary more appealing.

Since the 10% cut in reduction to all/many popular Rit skills just ain't gonna happen based on the scale of the operation (and other reasons listed above), the 2% per rank in SP is gonna be too much, but I still stand by the idea behind that. As earlier in the thread I proposed a 1% increase to each "green" (attribute affected) value in Ritualist skills per rank in Spawning Power, I still think that this tiered-benefit system that applies to all Ritualist skills would be the most effective and easiest change. Not to mention, except for the health of spirits, it is similar in functionality to the current SP, and even considering spirits, the durations will typically be affected and the level as well, which may compensate for the loss in additional health.

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However, 1% is probably too conservative, as, again, most good Rit builds are going to combine at least 2 other Ritualist attribute lines for maximum efficiency. So let's scrap 1% as too conservative and analyze the same set of popular skills analyzed earlier on 1.5% increase of efficiency per rank in SP

Case 1. For 12 Resto, 11 Channeling, 6 Spawning (therefore all Ritualist skills are 9% more effective)

[Life] - Level 8 --> Level 9; 6 -- 7 health per second (120 --> 140 at full)

-This is a good exampled of a heavily tiered skill (that doesn't change with each attribute point) that is still noticeably better with even a moderate investment in Spawning.

[Ancestor's Rage] - 82 --> 89 damage; (PvP) 23 --> 25 damage per second

-Here is a direct damage Channeling skills that again gets far more powerful as Spawning increases. Since PvP balance is a concern, consider that with 11 Channeling and 6 Spawning, damage only increases by 6, total, and even at 16 Channeling/16 Spawning (completely arbitrary of course), damage would go from 33 --> 41 per pulse for a total increase of 24 damage. That's entirely unrealistic, but it increases effectiveness without destroying balance at actual levels of play.

[Splinter Weapon] - 4 --> 4 attacks; 38 --> 41 damage to adjacent foes; (PvP) 4 --> 4 attacks; 23 --> 25 damage to adjacent

-Much like A-Rage, the benefit here is direct damage and is noticeably more powerful even at moderate investments in SP but isn't game-breaking even at high levels.

[Weapon of Warding] - 9 --> 10 seconds; 4 --> 4 regen

-Here is another heavily-tiered skill like Life that is only affected by attributes at certain critical levels. Much like current SP, the duration here is affected but nothing else.

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And so my assertion is that a +xx%/SP rank would strengthen Ritualist primaries enough to play the class without really needing that much adjustment to other skills if any at all. Even at 14 Channeling, 13 Spawning, a Rit will now be comparable to an Ele for lightning damage/air spike.

Anyway, those are once again my thoughts. I'd like nothing more than to see a buff to Spawning Power to make Rits gameworthy in all areas of the game.

I have two - actually, three - responses to this:

First, this wasn't the case so much when the Ritualist was first introduced. As the game has developed, offensive abilities, especially in the PvE meta, have increased at a rate that has outstripped most defensive abilities. This, plus a focus in 'speed-clears' and similar such concepts aimed at doing things in the fastest way possible is what leads to the concept of fights lasting seconds. But in styles of play closer to what was the case when the Ritualist was introduced, it was quite possible to have enough time to have all your synergies going off by the time the fighting reached its peak, at least in the tougher battles. And in the easier ones, the ones that do only last seconds... than you can make do without them. Those are the ones where you don't NEED to be pulling out all the stops, after all.

Second, it IS possible to pre-prepare. I know this idea is anathema to the speedclear crowd, but in a difficult battle where the difficulty is zOMG-damage and where if you can survive the damage you can take the enemy down in those seconds you describe, you ARE allowed to spend a few seconds putting up protective spirits, loading up an item spell, seed a few weapon spells, and so on before you go in. If such a battle DOES only take seconds, it could even be over before you have the chance to throw more than one or two heals, meaning that it's actually the setup that has the greater effect.

Third... who says the time required to perform a ritual has to be set in stone? (Addendum: Personally, I think the Ritualist probably could have benefited from more skills like Anguished Was Lingwah - spirits that could be preprepared in pot form and dropped when needed)

The point I was making is that the Ritualist is intended to be a profession that rewards preplanning. The reasons that primary Rits haven't done much to threaten the dominant position of Monks are the following:

1) The 'payoff' isn't really big enough. It's not clear that the Ritualist actually DOES get more effective than the Monk even with all the synergies firing. (but see #3)

2) Introduction of a profession that rewards patience when the game has increasingly rewarded speed over patience. Factions had almost every mission being timed, while after that we have the steady increase of firepower to the point where 'kill fast before you get killed' becomes the name of the game.

3) As was referenced earlier in the thread: Lack of prot after the Ritlord nerfs. Protective Spirit is one glaring hole in the Ritualist's arsenal - Shelter was supposed to perform the function, but has been nerfed to the point where it really doesn't.

Even with all these points, however, it is worth noting that Ritualist secondaries are getting to the point where they are favoured over Monks in some situations. After all, the synergies aren't hard to hit. Protective Was Kaolei only takes a second to cast, and can be dropped to produce a party heal. Most weapon spells take a second to cast (and, y'know, have their own worthwhile effect), and then you can follow up with a conditional. And as for spirits... you only need one, cheap, 3s-bind spirit in the general area, and EVERYONE's spirit-based synergies can go off.

Numbers can be tweaked. Given the borderline (or post-borderline, even) overpoweredness of Rit secondaries, I don't think a revision downwards of those numbers would kill them. Maybe 5% if 10% is too big, or 8%, or 4.57392% - whatever works. And I don't see any problem at all with encouraging characters to use their primary attribute. Do you see Elementalists complaining about being FORCED to use Energy Storage, or Necromancers complaining about being FORCED to use Soul Reaping?

(That's not to say zero isn't an option. But being realistic, I would expect a big buff to Spawning Power to be followed by a battery of nerfs once the Ritualist to longer has to rely on the power of its skills to make up for a lackluster primary.)

im pretty sure they are going to have to buff us in some way to get rid of the /rt overpoweredness, XD.

im pretty sure the only "overpoweredness" is just the N/Rt healers... Which isnt overpowered due to the /rt but because of Soul Reaping.

It's a combination. E/Rts are just behind N/Rts. The overpoweredness comes from combining a set of skills that have been made to be functional without a useful primary with one of the more useful primaries in the game.

i think raising a spirits level instead of just raising its max health would be a very nice buff. we would also be able to take something away from the necros, and who doesnt like that. that is as long as it would still effect minions.

Hrrmn. I think the Necro players could rightfully complain if Rt/Ns started being better MMs than N/ primaries...

...although, to be honest, I don't really think that would happen, as long as the increase in level from Spawning Power is sane. Rits don't have the Soul Reaping energy engine or the ability to reach 10 minions without buffs to their skills, so it would probably work out, at the most overpowered, as a quality/quantity thing.

If it IS to affect everything, I'd probably set it at +1 level per every 4 levels of Spawning Power - that way things like animated minions, Asura summons and EVAS don't get too silly. That might not be enough to keep spirits alive, but, well, at least it would HELP.

However, it still doesn't address the greater problem, in that the majority of possible Ritualist builds do not make significant use of SP.

True rit's don't use builds a lot with spirit's because spirit's are not flexible, and die to fast.
Higher level=higher survival.


Rit's have 3 "unique" kind of skill type's
Weapon spells, Item Spells, Binding rituals.

The only thing these 3 things have in common are:
1) They all cost EN
2) They all have activation time
3) they all have recharge
4) they all last for a period of time

Not quite unique features.......

So it's hard to come up with something which balances all of that.
And if you do expect a lot of nerfs.

"For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create have 4% more Health, and weapon Spells you cast last 2% longer. For every 5 ranks in Spawning Power, theese creatures will also have 1 additional Health Regeneration. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power."

Now THAT would have been much more useful, and fit well with what Spawning Power really is all about.

*ponders*

Not really. Two pips isn't a lot given the life expectancy of a spirit that starts taking damage, and it still doesn't do anything for the majority of (N/)Rit builds that basically rely on a cheap, fast-recharge token spirit just to set off the synergies without caring much about what the spirit itself does.

i'd rather see them make spawning power skills more useful - its skill line is just an even lamer version of communing. increasing the spirit health boost would be nice too, because health is squat when they have no armor. spirits are just momentary free adrenaline builders for wars/paragons.

each rank of spawning power your summoned creatures gain 5% max health, weapon spells last 3% longer, and for every 4 ranks creatures you create gain 1 level.

i have a dream..

and how does this help channeling?

channeling doesnt need help.

Neither does Restoration. This is why you see so many /Rt secondaries using Channeling and Restoration.

The point of a SP buff is to give someone an incentive to use Spawning Power... and, by extension, to use a Ritualist secondary. If a Spawning Power buff provides no benefit to the most used Ritualist skills (typically conventional spells and weapon spells with a limited number of activations) because they 'don't need the help', then it will have completely missed the target and we will continue to see N/Rts favoured over Ritualist primaries.

Well I bet the devs are also having a hard time figuring out how to fix this problem. The only way I think to have primary rt be better than the /rt would be to make the resto line heal for less and make spawning somehow give more healing or something like that... Seems like fixing spawning is just to hard for a jack of all trades class, I hope they can figure out something.

This is one suggestion that's been made, yes.

[Nightmare [email protected]] Limits = 3 attacks
[Splinter [email protected]] Limits = 4 attacks
[Wailing [email protected]] Limits = 10 seconds, recharge 25
[Warmonger's [email protected]] Limits = 13 seconds, recharge 30
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = Target Self
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = It sucks
[Brutal [email protected]] Limits = Has no effect when enchanted
[Ghostly [email protected]] Limits = Next attack
[Guided [email protected]] Limits = 15 energy
[Sundering [email protected]] Limits = 3 attacks
[Vital [email protected]] Limits = Other useful weapon spells
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = Why don't we use this?
[Resilient [email protected]] Limits = Armor < Blocking
[Spirit Light [email protected]] Limits = Healing Breeze
[Vengeful [email protected]] Limits = Next damage
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = Next damage
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = 9 seconds, 20 recharge
[Weapon of [email protected]]] Limits = Why have the regen?
[Xinrae's [email protected]] Limits = Next attack
[Weapon of [email protected]] Limits = Next attack
[Great Dwarf [email protected]] Limits = Need a tank

How many weapon spells has a chance to not last their full duration?
9 out of 20

How many weapon spells last less than 1/2 the recharge
3 of 20

How many Elite weapon spells are out done by other normal spells
2 out of 5?

How many weapon spells that should be used more?
2 of 20 ([[Great Dwarf [email protected]] and [[Weapon of [email protected]])

Including the less than 1/2 the recharge. 12 out of 20 ends early, making SPAWNING POWER USELESS!

if weapon of quickening was in channeling/restoration it would be much more popular. also the cast time is kind of limiting.

when it comes to weapon spells that don't end after a condition is met, spawning power is an indirect form of energy management. when weapon spells last longer, you don't have to cast them as often, obviously.

however, you are right when it comes to weapon spells that end when a condition is met. rather than change spawning power to accommodate them, the solution would be to remove the conditions and adjust their durations so that spawning power can come into play.

So, if most of those weapon spells were weakened ALOT, but instead of making it end at next attack or whatever, they could have a duration.

then spawning power would actually help.

very good idea guys

I'd be inclined to say that the weapon spells with duration less than half recharge are some of the better arguments for using Spawning Power in it's current form. They're all fairly powerful effects, where making them last 20% longer can mean another interrupt or another application of Blind or whatever.

A more important analysis would probably be on which of those skills get used. The weapon skills that tend to be mentioned in high-powered builds are Splinter, Vengeful (and Elite variants) and Warding, which makes 2 out of 3 end early (and the ratio goes up if you include the aforementioned elite variants of Vengeful).

Making all weapon spells like that would be a lot of work, that's the reason it probebly won't happen.

It is a good idea.

/signed It's a great idea considering Spawning power seems to almost play a useless attribute. You can be a spirit spammer w/o it and it will still be fine.

EDIT to spirit armor level and SP breakpoints

I've been thinking about SP for a long time, and I think that this idea (although a little wordy) isn't overpowered, but more than enough to give the Rit power over it's own profession. Ok here goes:

Spawning Power-
For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have 5% more Health and weapon spells you cast last 3% longer. Binding spells will cost 5% less energy, cast 5% faster, have 5% more armor, and recharge 5% faster for every 2 points of Spawning Power. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.

-OR-

Spawning Power-
For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have 5% more Health and weapon spells you cast last 3% longer. For every 5 ranks of Spawning Power, all of your other Ritualist skills will gain 1 additional attribute point. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.


AND!!

For PvE only, allow up to 3 duplicate spirits be made in one area. That would be amazing.
What do you guys think?

I personally think that the breakpoint of 4 for my second idea still wouldn't be overpowered, but hey, that's me.

wtf so @ 12 SP and 12+1+3 chan and 3 dump points in res
I will have a total of 20 chan :S and still have total 7 resto :S

overpowered

This has been suggested but how would it work?
set up 3 life?
or 3 recuperation so you get 9 regen?
will have to many issues