Boycott the Storage Update!

1 pane is most likely around 1 kilobyte of data, and maybe less. Real cost is not in this size but in the need of sending the data between servers, data stations, and to you. Right now when you open your Xunlai, data from all 5 tabs is sent to you.
The server upgrade they have performed to make increases possible may include some changes in the network code regarding the data transfers, so that for example only data from your active tab will be sent to you (pure speculation, but that kind of update would make sense).

Still, if you think logically. all the additional data from new panes to be sent and processed is a VERY SMALL % of resources needed to

lolwut? Prices for character slots were never lowered, only prices that went down are the old campagins. Extra stuff may never see any decrease. Those overpriced xunlai panes already look hopeless.
I know I won't be getting overpriced 20 slots for $10 - I'm all AGAINST this kind of extreme pricing - so very little value for a sum of money that can get me MUCH MORE - so even though I can afford them, and could really use them - I'm boycotting them as a form of PROTEST and my money will go elsewhere - I made the decision, I'm getting myself a whole new account, and will move the less used items there... New account, a lot of freee open space... feeling so awesome :]

...and will abuse some more XTH on it for a few months till zkeys drop below 2k

31 pages in and this thread really isn't going anywhere tbh.

Most people here are either just regurgitating points made earlier in the thread (may not have realised due to not reading the entire thread) or just having a slapping session with someone else in the thread.

One thing I would like to ask/request - remove this from the OP - "They are selling virtual space, so Ill pay with my virtual gold". We are NOT paying for virtual space as many people have now picked up on - we are paying for the actual space AND maintenance of it from ANet's perspective. Yes, even I admit it is overpriced at $10 a slot but still, its payment they need (in their opinion) to move forward. So can this be altered to reflect correctly.

I'll elaborate a bit more. When ANet originally will have "sized" their database, they would have done it based upon the number of accounts expected to sell in a period of time and what would equate to maximum amount of room required for a maxed account (4 character slots each with max bags/pouch and storage). Factor in a percentage on top and voila, original size of the database created. Oversimplified yes (data types and lengths not mentioned) but in principle, there you go.

In time they would have increased this space (Factions/Nightfall either brand new four slots or 2 slots for a linked account). The point being extra revenue that these games generated paid for upgrading the disks and storage space accordingly.

Now they are giving us what we have asked them for and people are complaining because its not free and/or overpriced. People, nothing in this world is really for free - nievety to think this was always going to be free to us. If it had been just one tabe for everyone, yes free could have been warranted. But we are getting that slot free (as I read it) and you have the OPTION to buy more. They have sat down and thought through, at length, what we really could need. And, by the sound of it, they have done a good job too. Of course, this remains to be seen once it has been implemented.

Indeed this sounds a little far fetched to expect that high level of storage but you also have to remember the database they are using is MORE than 4 years old. Still doesn't warrant 8MB yes but, in conjunction with my points above, this maybe a rough ball park figure they have arrived at using existing data and future projections. After all, no one here knows how their data is structured, how many indexes they have on their tables (and the types of indexes too). Plus you have the extra logging the database has to do to keep track of any changes made to each of these new pane. For those of you interested look up "Transaction Logs/Logging" in Google.

All of this adds to this ballpark figure (and will certainly be a lot more than 1kb of data in total per pane).

Slapping in a couple of code monkeys won't work when they would be prohibited to code to the underlying data structure and coding of the database itself. Not trying to flame/insult, merely point out here.



AreaNet have given us a product that, for 4 years, has kept a lot of people happy for this period of time. For an outlay of the 4 games price (e.g. £29.99 when they first came out), for an online game, that is staggeringly good value for 4 years worth of enjoyment (if played from 2005). But, in order for them to survive, they cannot keep dishing stuff out for free. Things change, business plans/priorities do as well. Like it or not, its a sign of the times and a reflection of the world we live in today.

Also, I'd like to say thankyou to those of you who gave me very postivite feeback to some of the points I raised very early on in this thread - shows some can read

Get over it, Anet is gonna do whatever it is gonna do, everyone is short on money these days. If you need more storage, pay the $10, it wouldn't bankrupt you, if you don't need more storage, well, that's $10 saved.

/notsigned

oh.... your poll is BIASED. you have 3 questions stating negative views and only 2 for positive views one of which is biased towards having a lower price. a YES or NO poll is more decisive.

Having a different number of negative/positive answers doesn't introduce Bias.

The "$5 or $10 I don't care" option seems to be rather pointless, since if they consider $10 fair, then why wouldn't they consider $5 fair? Those two should be combined into a basic "I will buy" option.

And the negative options ARE valid because they break up reasons that people won't buy them. They refuse to pay *anything*, They refuse to pay $10, or they simply don't want it. A Yes/No poll is not more decisive and would actually supply less information. As it is, it separates the "Everything must be free" group from the "That's too expensive" group. This is a good thing.

I bet a stack of ectos that the raw data of 20 universal slots is LESS than 3 kilobytes. (almost sure it's less than 2 and close to 1kB but not betting on that)

If you don't know that, they aren't using ANY database to store our items - both characters' and accounts inventories are stored in blobs (binary large objects). No indexing or advanced structures. It doesn't matter it's 4 years old, it's their trademark extreme cheap technology that allows running this game at very minimal costs.

Wrong. They're a business, we want something, we even said we'd pay for it. They have no reason not to sell it to us. Furthermore, we are getting 20x(number of characters you have) slots for free with this coming update from equipment packs, plus possibly another 20 for a free tab (depending on the nature of this promotion they're going to be offering).

They are not a charity, your friend, or indebted to you in any way. Get over yourself.

Oh my gawd.

The last time this game had new content added was about 1 year and 7 months. In that time, all the Guild Wars players managed to play GW just fine with our current storage capacity. Now A-net is giving us free new storage and a new method of buying extra storage.

So a few whiny bitches decided to ignore that we are getting free new storage and that people seemed to have managed for the past year without any storage upgrade.

I really think that all the people who are disagreeing with A-Net are doing it for the lolz and to stir up some heated conversation because they're bored and have nothing else to do.

^ This.

lolguru

Anyway, no need for anyone to whine about it. If you dont want it or cannot afford it (financially or out of principle) then dont buy it. Prices will eventually come down. I'll wait a few months...

I don't see why you need to boycott this lol.

Every1 gets to vote for or against this by either purchasing it or refusing to...

I really don't think that the introduction of people who have more storage into the game is gonna have a huge effect.

You can't just keep demanding free storage... I mean if they give up and give out some, ppl will just manage their storage more loosely, and it becomes a problem again.

Where do you draw the line?

I didn't. Furthermore I'd like to see an old thread with a good amount of people saying they would.

So your excuse is they should sell everything because they can? I bet you are one of the people who thinks selling UAX is good too (instead of giving it to us like it should have always been and it is absolutely CLEAR it should have always been free). How about they take away the promise of UAX in GW2 and sell it to us in skill packs instead? Would that be ok too?!

The problem here is where do we draw the line of what is fine to sell and what isn't? Personally I have no problem with them selling character slots for example. But in GW2 they could easily sell the game itself as a minimal content experience and then a series of microtransactions unlocks the "full potential" of the game. That is not a series I want to be a part of, and it is clear they are moving in that direction.

Please desist on the personal insults, attacks, commentary, etc. Keep to the topic please.

I shall repeat:

"You can get storage Cheaper and with additional benefits by buying something else. Stop Whining, and take advantage of that."

"You are getting Free storage, in actually more useful form, too. Stop Whining, and take advantage of that."

Only reason to buy 10$ storage is "i gotta get all upgrades to pimp account" or "i dont want to switch mules". In either case: boo, freaking, hoo, shell out money.

I shall be rich tonight! Doing stuff cheap does not mean cutting corners everywhere. Nightmarish mess of "super effective storage" should cure that idea of every developer who touched that. Especially with people just waiting to whine about anything that would loose them items. "Expensive stuff" as far as performance goes are queries, transactions and updates, having everything in blob minimizes their amount.

20 slots huh,

Well, stored 'naked' GW character weighted 10kb in 2007 (30kb with chapters and related stuff - like maps and quest statuses). 45 slots on that character, that ends up some gorgeous 4kb for 20 slots.

And it actually ads up, just customization data is 0.65 kb (charname + 64 character uid + 64 bit account uid + customization/dedication flag).

Feel free to pm me anytime

Things that are fine to sell: Appearances and vanity. Not fine: Pretty much anything else. You should have all the best functionality right out of the box.

I agree on this , the $10 isn't realy worth it to boycott it.
And if they do make it $5 I can get a big mac menu. ($5 saved)

Oh dear.... all I will say is they actually use Microsoft SQL Server as their database engine and DO have a database. Yes I know what BLOBs are and you HAVE to use a DBMS (database management system) to store these data types.

Took me a while to find the article to back up what I already know, but here you go: http://www.dbms2.com/2007/06/09/the-...of-guild-wars/.

So please, understand what you are talking about before posting. Thankyou

I'll pay if I need to. ANet is a business and needs to raise money to keep the servers up and the business. Anyway, we may be getting a free special storage pane anyway.

From your registration date I assume you have played GW from nearly the beginning, but you seem to have forgotten that Anet have added more storage over the years..... they added new tabs for every campaign you bought plus they added the crafting material tag (which saved a lot of storage space)
They have now addressed further calls for more storage space by giving us more... for FREE.... plus an option of getting even more for a few dollars.
The only people who I think this will not please... are the few people who are never pleased.

Im also confused about how passionate and vocal you are about this topic when it doesnt really concern you since you rarely play the game anymore... but your ramblings do bring a smile to my face :-)

I'm not buying it. I do not participate in micro-transactions in MMOs, because they generally just get worse and worse as time goes on. I did not buy the BMP, and I will not buy this. I did feel the BMP was worth 10 dollars after reading about it, but this is not worth my money, IMO, especially when MOX was completely free.

I understand Anet's need for the green stuff, and it's nothing personal, but I cannot say this without sounding mean so I'll just say it. If you are going to release minor content and charge us, you might as well make the game pay to play so that way you can at least add in tons more content while you are at it, or continue pumping out expansions as an alternative to that. On top of that, I'll say this, if Guild Wars 2 follows in the same direction I'll likely avoid buying it. I detest micro-transactions in video games with every ounce of my heart since it's usually a bad cost to content ratio. The BMP seemed to be acceptable, since it was like a mini expansion, and character slots I did not mind since it all added up to 8. This? Well this just isn't worth money in my opinion.

Just voicing my opinion JR, there was no real way I thought I could say it without seeming harsh. I'm a bit of an Anet and GW fanboi as most already know, but this just feels wrong.

Monthly subscription or Chapter based business model with microtransactions. Take your pick.

You don't want to pay a sub? Fine. Stop whining about the alternative.

You aren't paying for the content. The content is completely free. You even get extra storage free too. They are simply giving you the option to get even more, if you so choose. Either they put it in and charge for it, or the option just isn't there at all.

Is $10 a little much? Maybe, but that's their call. As many have said: If you don't want it that much, then don't buy it.

After you bought 1 tab your not forced to buy more.

i'm a developer and i've worked with several major payment processing companies, and i'm well aware of how they work, kthxbye. they don't charge $5 per transaction because that isn't practical for small transactions. would you pay $5 for a banana? hell no. their fees are usually calculated based on the purchase price or have a low, set rate. besides, anet does offer 2 items for $4.99, so your point is moot regardless - "living" proof that there is no $5 transaction fee. realistically, i'd guess the overall cost of one transaction is more on par with $1-$2 depending on the price of items purchased.

since i only have one account, i might consider buying an extra storage tab or two.

but then again:
1. i don't play as much as i used to.
2. when faced with a $10 charge, i might take a closer look at what I already have in my storage, and throw out or sell junk that i never use anyway.

/signed

If GW had a Auction hall there would be no need for extra storage, what I hate the most about GW is selling my own stuff wasting time in Kamadan typing WTS or WTB, the reason why I need extra storage because I have stuff to sell and I don't feel like taking the time to sit in Spamadan................. I currently play 2 MMO's and the other one has a AH, and I don't have a storage problem, and they have less storage then GW, not paying $10 for storage.

In company where I work, issuing invoice to our customer costs about 300$.

No kidding.

Those GW's 5$ are too much for automated bank-to-bank transaction, sure, but quite right if they go thought accounting & billing (which they should).

I think it's fairly obvious by now that had it been possible for ArenaNet to implement an Auction House they would have. It's been up there with the most popular suggestions since release.

With that in mind, your post doesn't address the point.

Guys, I havent read the whole thread yet... But has anyone done the math?

There are many posts discussing database size and storage requirements driving this $10 charge.

There have been speculations on the amount of extra storage space needed in the database per account. I will pick the lowest one to start with. Someone mentioned 1k worth of data needed to support the extra storage.

For simplicity I am going to use a 100Gig HD at a cost of $250 (I can actually get a 300G drive for under $300). Now for redundancy reasons lets use 4 100G drives, at a total cost of $1000.00

At 1k per account, 1 million accounts will use 1 Gig of storage space (someone can check my math to make sure I don't have a zero off, but it wont matter).

The cost of 4x100G ($1000) / 1k per user = .00001 $ Yes, less than a penny per user for storage, 1/1000 of a penny (now that is a micro transaction)

Now, lets assume that 1k per account was off by a factor of 100, or even a factor of 1000. The storage cost of supporting this upgrade is mouse nuts, it is a rounding error.

Do they need to charge for it for the upgrade? Have they moved from the "free to play" model to the "micro transaction" model? Yes they have.

Lets not confuse micro transactions with mega transaction. $1.99, $2.99 ok, $9.99 nope. I can buy a new copy of Proph or Factions for $9.99

Anyone paying $9.99 for the upgrade is a blind fool.

There is more to it than just the space cost, the panels just don't appear by themselves.

Some people should try and look beyond their own playing style and preference before they denounce others as blind fools.

I plan to buy extra panels, and they'll suit me much better than extra characters or extra accounts.

Why, you ask? Because I'm not a packrat, and with just 2 or 3 more panels in addition to what I expect from the equipment packs, I will have no more need for any mules at all. Right now, some of my characters keep a small amount of stuff. One keeps stacks of dye, one keeps stacks of tomes, some keep a few assorted trinkets. None of them use more than 10 slots (1 bag) for that purpose.

Give me a few panels and I'll never mule again, which I definitely consider to be worth a few bucks.

The point isn't if it would be useful or not, the point is you're overpaying by a huge margin for what you're getting.

I already spent money on the damned BMP and 2 extra char slots. Unless something completely outstanding comes with the storage tabs, anet will not get any more money out of me unless its for an expansion/gw2.
This is the reason I would never buy them compared to buying another char slot or a cheap account from somewhere like amazon or a game store.

Boycott it if you must...It's Anets way of making you purchase a new account for their sales department/figures. Then they can boast about how many new copies they've sold in Q2 '09.

I'm actually not fully in agreement of this statement. But since I agree with most of it I won't elaborate.

Ok my memory is really bad, but didn't they only have like 2 storage upgrades through the history of the game? I don't remember it being per campaign. I only remember they added a storage pane that holds materials and then they added a few more tabs for everybody. But this was MUCH later...like years later I remember because storage has always been the #1 complaint from people...more than auction house or balance or more than just about anything else.

Long time no see JR. But anyways your post basically sums up the problem...I don't want to play EITHER type of game. Guild Wars didn't use to fit either one of those categories and now it does. I bought Guild Wars partially because it wasn't this (among other reasons). I think it is perfectly legit to whine about that change and others that have happened to this game.

That's for everyone to decide for themselves. Which is why it's such a moronic notion to boycott a product for finding it overpriced. Reasonable people would just not buy it and call it not buying it.

Offcourse I am not going to pay for extra storage. Because I never needed extra storage in the first place.

I disagree, it doesn't. GW2 may be, but not GW1. I think you're just too "purist" (not to say "fundamentalist") to see that change is needed, but it's not black&white. I don't believe that it's a GW business model change, I think Anet has simply a more flexible approach than other companies.

How do you know what it cost ANet to provide this? If you're basing this opinion just on what it costs to buy a bit of disk space, then you're way off.

It's been pointed out by several posters in this thread that disk space is only the beginning. Double, triple, or quadruple that for replication. Add in costs of bandwidth, for replication and to pump all the extra data out to the clients every time they open storage. Perhaps faster hardware because of scaling issues caused by a big increase in database size. More system memory to account for a bunch more data showing up whenever someone opens their storage.

Figure all of that, and then figure in the costs that went into developing and promoting this upgrade. Design, programming, server support, QA, and more.

Now, tell me what this margin is that you're calling "huge". Give me a number, or at least a percentage over cost. Even an approximate percentage. Back up your statement that the overpayment is huge.

Not to mention Network management costs and the cost of pulling/subbing ppl for GW2 to help with the update(face it - an update like this can't be done in 4 months with only 2 ppl). DO NOT assume any of you knows what it costs to design, program, implement, and maintain a system like this. Until you do stop whining. Also, ANET IS A BUSINESS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, pleasing/supporting customers is ALWAYS second to this. THIS IS NOT YOUR RUN OF THE MILL ONLINE GAME THAT REQUIRES LITTLE SUPPORT FROM THE DEVS. You don't like micro transactions? Don't pay for them or go play a game that doesn't have a need for them. GW may not be a typical MMO, but it still requires far more resources just to run than something like Left4Dead, COD4, or ANY game that runs on player managed servers. Not to mention that ISPs are raising costs and/or putting bandwidth limits of customers(both business and home) and ANet has to make up these costs somehow as well as pay for GW2 development. They aren't like other MMO devs, like Square Enix or Blizzard, who HAVE other ips beyond their MMO to bring in revenue. They ONLY have GW and it's pretty clear that the box sales are dwindling. Would you rather they don't charge, run out of money and then drop ALL support for GW and ALL dev of GW2?(I know that's extreme, but it IS a possibility)

No, I'm basing it off of a little something called reality. It's nice, you should try it sometime - very healthy for you too.

So your reality is of someone working in an MMO company? Or game dev/designer? Or a programmer? Because BrettM's post sounds much more realistic (same linguistic root as reality).