May Skill Balances

Way back when in the time of dinosaurs there was no such thing as unlocking skills and items with Balthazar Faction, so everyone had to PvE. Yep, even the PvP destined players played PvE and played through the game as it was "originally released". Very few people are PvP players solely, most PvP players use PvE toons to PvP with, earned their FoW, cool looking stuff etc the hard way, and PvE to some degree. Some of them are even God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals!

This is mostly because few people understand that PvP players play PvE too and could mostly be considered PvXers really. Sure there's some that only play PvP (and only ATs prolly lol), but those are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. They don't understand that a lot of PvP players use PvE toons to PvP with either!

When there wasn't skill splits, that was the closest this game had to a universal balance. ArenaNet is to fault at several points here for PvE balance, notably not reworking enemy + henchmen skill bars in accordance to balance changes, I will agree with that, however the Skill Split is only going to prevent PvE balance as it was mostly implemented to prevent nerfs from PvE ever happening and to give it insane buffs that wouldn't work in an actual balanced game. Stuff like Ether Renewal (infinite health, energy, free spammable 300 HP heals + prots everywhere), Splinter Weapon (greatest AoE damage skill in the game), Shadow Form (god mode), and so on are all helping to prevent PvE from becoming truly balanced, and so will be the case so long as people continue to think that balancing was always done with PvP only in mind (not the case at all) and decry any and every nerf, no matter how good (Soul Reaping, Death Magic, Protective Bond) or well intentioned those changes were for helping to balance PvE.

It does give a heal, and if you aren't facing hexes in the game, you aren't playing PvP. Mesmer says 'Hi!' And the way she wrote the skill, that 90% reduction in duration was gone, just leaving the removal. I was basing my response on her skill rewrite. Besides, if you don't have E-management ability as a monk, that you can't afford the +5 e, you should quit watching red bars and prot more.

As she wrote the skill change, the two, I think, are not far apart. As PnH is NOW, yes, it is imbalanced.

I do think that Dreamwind has a point where PvE is concerned.

This is new.
A 15 page long argument about PvPers being elitists and PvEers being scrubs occurring a week BEFORE the monthly skill update.

You guys just can't wait to start arguing with each other can you?

Actually, this is how it goes:

First, Anet will tell us when to expect the update. When told it is later than expected, the PvPers state how unfair and lame it is. PvE'ers then tell the PvPers to stop whining, then proceed to asking Regina to make sure to nerf RoJ and SF because it is unfair to the monsters.

The PvPers step up, saying how PvEers get everything they want while Anet disregards the PvPers discussions. Then, they ask exactly how long it takes to do a simple fix to the game. PvEers jump the Anet's rescue, and proceed to ask for free storage and another Gwen action figure. PvPers tell PvEers to shut up, stating that PvEers don't understand balance and to keep their noses to raptor farming and fow armor.

This generally goes back and forth, until Regina steps in and answers some random question about Zquests or Storage. Then, the tornado of player-hate continues.

That being said, PvP announcements should be posted in the PvP portion of the thread, Regina.



Thanks

Mainly because the PvE'ers told the PvPers that they didn't have a right to bitch for having to endure one of the worst metas ever.

Why is it so bad? I've been having a lot of fun trying new builds since i came back.

Meta changes... it keeps things fresh and new... enjoy your Aegis, although it will probably still be there with a 20 second window of non-mass enchanting... enjoy your PnH, although it will still clean off most your hexs and cons... enjoy your LC, although it will still lower healing ability...

Overall from what I heard from others and the way PvP has been working... it doesn't seem like the skills currently used are going to change much... they will be weakened, but not nerfed into oblivion.

I think what we will see for a change to the meta is nerfing of the big Gimmicks (Lich, Blood, IWAY) and an Increase of non used areas (Sword, Rits, Dervs, Para). This will produce more options to choose from instead of 2-3 standard builds with 1 slight role change (like 2nd Mesmer instead of a Ranger or a Shatter Smite instead of a LoD Smite.)

PvP battles needs to be diverse with a lot of options to choose from. If it doesn't, it will become stale and less interesting from a tactical build stand point. Its "run this, because it the Meta, 1337, and everyone else does it!"... and we need to get away from that. Open the game up, and diversify into some newer builds. My Guilds are already looking into those areas... and others should too, and hopefully this update will create that. I wanna see a Sin Split verse a Balence... or a Presser verse a Spike... or a 3-3-2 Split verse a 5-3... I want to see a tactical game... not cookie cutter balenced same build going head to head... save your cookies for your milk and try some new flavors

I gave up on expecting any real form of balance a long time ago I would rather have a bunch of wacky buffs than a half assed attempt at balancing the game at least its fun to screw around with new skills.

Divert removes conditions only if it removes hexes and costs 10 energy. That makes divert a crappy buildwars elite and PnH a skill that would be useful in every match. Also I like how you mention in passing "5 less E", as if it wasn't a big difference.

Your turn.

EDIT: Oh look, there's more... should've read the whole thread.

Excuse me while I use divert hexes to pull this shame off myself. Ok, maybe not that... but dom mesmers don't stack hexes. Neither do water eles (or mesmers). A veil/cure on each monk + smite hex on midline or something similar is enough to deal with diversion and VoR/backfire. Unless you're facing hexway, divert is a waste of an elite.

I'm surprised this revolutionary monking technique called "e-management ability" haven't earned your shield of regeneration monk a gold cape yet.

5e and 10e is a HUGE difference for a monk. If you don't realize that you shouldn't even be in this thread talking about balance.

Your response is contradictory and shows you did not pay any attention to what I stated. I stated skill emphasis of choice, meaning Skill Line: Domination, Wilderness Survival, Sword, Command, Wind Prayers, Earth Magic, etc. etc. Regardless of skill emphasis of choice the player should be able to contribute successfully anyplace in the game. This would provide balanced play in player expression of concept versus environment. As it is there are entire classes that no matter what skill set you bring they will be utterly useless in 50% or more of a map.

Hey, what are you spiking your lime-ade with? It seems to be tinting your glasses a rosy shade of pink. You are ignoring the 3.5+ years of experienced play at pulling, hench maneuvering, developed flagging skills, hero queuing, and Vent/TSing//same room communications, skill bar reconstruction, etc. which we have. These are assets also held by those screwing up the skills, and which they do not compensate for when making skill balances. Game balance should be made for those who are at an average not at a superior level of asset achievement. The point to having superior asset achievement isn’t to go cry for mommy and daddy to make the game harder for everyone else, but to turn around and go assist in the new guy's development.

First, I meant PvP is based on Ego – its entire meta is based upon Ego. The entire function of PvP is centered around only bothering to support the group because of what ‘I’ the Ego will get out of it. It is Self-centered, Selfish, Self-aggrandizing, … hence Egotistical. It has no socially redeeming value except perhaps to show people the lack of ethical social value in opposition to everyone.
Really, then do it. Solo, and I mean Solo not H/H, no player assist, - not in one quest, mission, vanqing, etc. everything in PvE with a Paragon. And I want a movie of it – Solo, remember, S o l o!
I am more aware of this than 99.9%. One does not adventure to be a part of the resurrection soup. One chooses to be an adventurer to participate in the Hero with a Thousand Faces, even if one does not understand what that is. The paradigm of the hero is one of success and one of attainment through tight spots, not continual defeat, and eventual snicking under 60 dp. This is not my normal MO, but there are spots where it has been unavoidable. (The people I was with got discoed and I did Griff’s War with Myself and 3 heroes. That was a 60 dp fight where I am sure my character looked like he was sacking cats and ran out of paper bags.)

PvP is based on limiting skills so that the 20th level somethings, with the latest PvX rebuild out of the latest nerf, can button mash their kiting while really doing nothing new with skills that marginally call for shaved-seconds differences in timing for the same sequences of 1-2-3, kite.
PvE is about facing foes up to 33rd level who can effect half a health bar in damage with a crappy skill, and because of super special HM and boss powers unavailable to players, wipe them in another ½ second. (Tarlok comes quickly to mind with that one, but is not the only one that can do this.) This is of course when not facing things that have unique monster skills not available to players at all and against which there are sometimes no real or effective counters unless you bring that one player who runs a X/Y recently dipped in blue honey under a blood red moon in the third quarter of the year of the fire goat when the Hollyhocks were blooming while drinking Ephedra Tea and singing the 4th verse of the Canthan National Anthem.

Yes, because successful players are bad for the game. Starving players are the most important. It is after all starving players that will purchase E-bay gold, lose their accounts, and then buy a new one because – well, they knew they shouldn’t buy E-bay gold. Never mind that they were starved into it by nerf after nerf after nerf aimed at ensuring they would be less and less successful.
Further, the main reason I started a Necro was to play an MM who could control a platoon of minions – not to roll through the game, but because the formation looked good. There was art and symmetry and expression – something I won’t expect a non-PvEer to understand.

The problem is on the people who make the game because they are only and remain solely concerned with making decisions through the lens of PvP play. And yes, NC West has had time to make appropriate balances to PvE in the last year, to counter the decisions made exclusively for PvP in the previous 2+. They have not done so because PvP is the only priority in their concept of the game.

You have no idea what PvE is because you are only a PvPer, no matter how much PvE you may have dabbled in. You also are incapable of paying attention to detail. The inbalance of Ursan was that they did not develop it so that it could be maintained and used by all classes equally. Because they failed to develop it so it could be used by all classes equally they nerfed it into relative uselessness. I have played with it a little outside of the missions for fun, but I don’t really even bother with the blessings in missions. They aren’t important. They aren’t necessary. They aren’t efficient. They aren’t reliable. Other skill bars work much better – til they get destroyed to merely because they are useful to a PvE player.

Their ‘choices to consider’ never, I repeat Never involve allowance for continued or developing opportunity for player success. They are only for its elimination. They force the community to continually retrench around limited options of classes for amassing currency to purchase wealth so that characters they do like will have half a chance at all of possibly accomplishing something or even barely scraping through the next mission or dungeon with sufficient consets.


PvP is and always will be an elaborate form of Pong, like all other video games. The challenge for a PvP game is how close to the line for suspending disbelief can the dev.s get before the players cry foul. So, don’t call it rock paper scissors, call it 1-2-3-kite, it’s still the same thing.

The difference is this. Within 48 hours of nerf, nothing is effective for replacing the PvE skill used against Boss X who has Super-buffed skill Y and HM level 28, plus super energy, health, and armor never seen in a PvP arena. On the other hand, within 48 hours PvX vetting replaces nerfed super builds for 1-2-3-Kite used in month Prior with new super builds for 1-2-3-Kite, in month present.

And this of course is your first description because you are a PvE player in-tune with the concept of the Champion Eternal. You are channeling the Hero of a Thousand Faces and functioning solely in your consideration of the interests of success against the greater evil, the gathering of forces for the final confrontations, and the bequeathing of heritage to the culture you protect…
;P, that is how I know you are a PvPer, and merely dabble in PvE but don’t get it.

And the fact remains that 1-2-3-Kite will always be the meta for PvP no matter what they do to the skills because it is inherent to the mechanics of PvP. It is fully unavoidable in GW.

One, you assume a great deal, if you think I will give them that much credit after the lines they have pulled on us concerning farm codes never existing, the Factions production (and other Factions) fiascoes, and this last month’s especially radiant brands of lunacy. (Which btw – after watching NC West screw over members of my alliance for NC West’s errors and take weeks to fix it, and the bans on people for using bad words in languages they don’t know anything about – no one in my gaming clan considers NC Soft worth buying games from.)

PvP as a concept is still to blame, and so are the PvPers who waltz over to PvE and insist the PvE game play like their PvP. Changes are still measured against a PvP standard that has never applied, and PvP players still demand it.

The imbalance in PvE has less to do with the split, after which PvE needs were ignored, than with other accumulated problems. The Paragon is a pretty and useless class, if it isn’t a God Paragon – it has no party value. I can run it – I don’t particularly want to. The only skills available outside of it that make the Para effective for play are PvE only skills (Ruby Djinn, Ebon Vanguard Assault, Pain Inverter). I know how to run H/H so I am pretty effective with my characters across the board, but I am also aware that there are some that are useless on the merits of the game design virtually game wide.

PvP balance is for making skill effectiveness slender enough in comparison that arrangement, button mashing, and kiting control the outcome – or as y’all put it ‘the Skillzzz.’ PvE balance is based upon being able to effectively express the concept of the skill line in social play, regardless of where you are at, and without restriction to some build-nazi's preferred 2-3 classes while you and your friends achieve with appropriate effort, success.

After all those years, is it still needed to 'balance' those skills? I mean, after the release of a new chapter, sure, some adjustments may be needed because not everything can be tested perfectly by the testing team.

But it has been years since the release of Nightfall now, even almost two years since GW:EN which hardly brought any new skills. Shouldn't the skill properties be finalized by now?

Well, they were more-or-less finalized until anet started doing their dartboard buffs, which was effectively throwing new skills into the game.

Sure... some good stuff came out of that, like Aura of the lich, VoR, or Ether Prism, but they also created really stupid skills like PnH (and to a lesser extent, LC, which is being kept in check only by PnH).

By putting something ridiculous like PnH in the game, anet did two things:
a) Made all other elite hex removal obsolete
b) Made all hex stack builds obsolete (Yes, I know how many people hate hexes, but I don't think removing a whole strategy from the game was a good move)

It would be nice if Hyper.nl were right though. NC West should fix the skills correctly to provide PvP the blandness they need for balance based on key board manipulation, and PvE the balance they need for class utility across the board for success in social adventuring. Then leave them the Frak alone so we can play. I quit playing AD&D the first time because I got tired of having to buy and learn a new book every month just to have some fun - and that was over 30 years ago. (Ok, they really got stupid about it 25 years ago with 2nd Ed.) NC West is just as ridiculous with monthly nerfs.

Boy, if only PvP was as easy as 1-2-3 Kite! I suppose Chess is as easy as 1-2-3 Checkmate now too.

You play an online game. Patches happen. I dare you to find a single multiplayer online role-playing game that doesn't have skill updates. (You won't find one.)

You have to admit that it's a quite important part of PvP, especially the high-end. I was amazed to listen to KiSu vent recordings (no offense to KiSu, one of the PvP guild I respect the most for their work at helping others), it was a constant series of 1-2-3 spike. And TA only works if you can spike apparently, which suggests that spiking has become the equivalent of the PvE-skills for PvP. I loved reading the PvP threads about pressure, and you can see that in Observer mode, and PvP surely is not all about spiking, but this is something you rarely see in PvE.

/hopes (for PvPers) this skill balance won't fail :/

If I could actually be bothered I would go through your whole post explaining why alot of what you wrote is wrong.

In short, many PvP'ers PvE as well. You should not be blaming PvP'ers when it is clearly Anet's fault they can't balance PvE OR PvP.

Edit: Kisu's vent recordings are kinda meh because they have good and bad players(It's still great they take new players). I'd try listening to the recordings of competitive guilds (like rawr) or http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12753

Ty for that! QQ is so difficult to browse (spend all my time filtering the crap)...

Everytime players come up with new builds the holy trinity pvp players whine and cry and boo hoo that they can't counter it and don't want to and Anet oblidges them and nerfs them into oblivion, Iway, Minion Masters, Spike teams of any kind get nerfed to oblivion because the holy trinity war/monk/fire ele don't want to play against that.

I've seen some great fun builds in the Meta like when the Devishers were popular and instead of seeing W/E fricking stupid warriors all the time you saw some new builds with Devishers at the forefront. Then the whinny warriors cried and cried and boo hooed that they weren't at the forefront anymore and Izzy (the ignorant) nerfed dervishers into oblivion.

Everything that beats the holy trinity gets nerfed. You can go back to the very beginning of GW from the very first nerfs to present and you will see that is so. If the skills don't bring in the holy trinity and ONLY the holy trinity rules the tournaments then it gets nerfed. And lord knows Izzy loves rangers because he has them so overpowered with interupts it's not even funny. Not forgetting to mention their emanagement main attribute of expertise reducing the cost of nearly everything to 5e or less.

So it really makes no difference when new builds enter the meta, if the holy trinity can't beat it to a pulp then it will get nerfed.

I'll admit that I love PnH for PvE.
But wherever I see it in PvP, including observing Hall of Heroes matches, there's always some overpowered PnH monk =/

I think what you overlook about DnD and really all games is the first game made is FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME, then anything made thereafter is FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY. DnD made all those editions and new books for MONEY. You reach a point with your first game sales of hardly any profits. Sooooo, you have to make an EXPANSION or a NEW CHAPTER (remind you of GW anyone?) to make MORE MONEY no longer is it for THE LOVE OF THE GAME. Same thing happened to GW, in the beginning what they put out here was FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME and every chapter and every nerf and every UPDATE (look at this last UPDATE) is for THE LOVE OF MONEY!

People really need to understand these developers DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOU or WHAT YOU WANT! They only give a crap about MONEY and what they can do to GET MORE OF IT OUT OF YOU!. NCsoft really doesn't give a crap about you all they care about is YOUR MONEY. So, they will do things to get SOME of YOU to SPEND YOUR MONEY FOOLISHLY. And of course you do it. Enough of you do it to keep them in business while a lot of you must suffer the consequences of GREED.

So, cry me a river cry cry cry no matter what the game will go forward for THE LOVE OF MONEY not for the love of the game or the love of the players.

Dang it, Fitz! Now you went and told everyone about our ONE super secret bad arse weapon! Anet will surely nerf us now! That's it, you're off the R & D team.

Red Sonya, I rarely agree with much you say, but I think you're spot on about love of the game vs. love of money. Unfortunately.

"Hi I'm Valve."

"And I'm stardock." (to a lesser extent).

Hmmm.

I don't think that's why they were nerfed...

I refuse to believe you even play PvP. Otherwise, you'd know that the best Eles in GvG are Mind Shock Air Eles. Not even Mind Blast Distortion is that great, since split builds suck in the current meta. You'd also know that everyone HATES Warrior's Endurance since it requires absolutely no skill to play. Furthermore, the current GvG build of choice is hyper-defensive spike. Oh, and the last time Dervishes were decent in GvG was back in the pre-VoD days where Avatar of Melandru Dervs would gank all of the NPCs during VoD. That was, what, a year ago?

Unless, of course, you're talking about HA, but, that would be dumb since skills are typically balanced around GvG and not HA. In the case of HA, fire eles are always going to be good since you need AoE for nuking the shrine. Even, then, though, plenty of builds with Assassins and spike builds are played there successfully.

You're just going to have to deal with the fact that Dervishes are crap for all PvP except HB and that it will likely never change. I mean, there's no real reason to run a Rit or Paragon anywhere but HA, but, you don't see me crying about it even though they're my favorite classes. >_>

The "Holy Trinity" is war/mo/ele. Don't dismiss a point because Red Sonya used "fire ele" instead of "ele".

There is no "holy trinity" in PvP or in PvE (unless necro/necro/necro is a trinity).

2005 is that way ---->

The reason they nerf those builds is the simple fact they are gimmicky and no thought is needed to play them... even when fighting a Blood Spike team, they all run around like a herd of cattle doing the same thing... grazing on the spikes...

when the game gets to a point where the loss of thought is needed to play it... then the skill/build must be OP and needs to be nerfed... GvG needs to get back to skill play... not mindless grazing...

Which is why that every build that has ever won a championship or accomplished anything in the game PvP wise has had at least, AT LEAST one mesmer and one ranger in it...

Some of you people really need to get a clue before you learn to speak. If you don't have said clue as to the subject at hand, than please refrain from spreading information to others arguing your viewpoint, when in reality you do not have anything valuable to discuss pertaining to either side. (I wont name names, but a few of them have spouted off some rather interesting, albeit wrong information thinking they know what they are talking about, wehn in reality, it makes them look even dumber)

Well, like most skill balance threads, this has turned into a dumb PvE vs PvP argument. You all know that the skill balance is delayed, and that is it.