this is an age old arguement but until something is done i believe i must remind the skill balancing team that paragons still exist. the same thing goes for other professions but this thing is gone to the point beyond ridiculous.
with all due respect to the skill balancing team and i mean this in the highest degree possible, have you forgotten that when you released nightfall you created a class called paragon?
a paragon at the moment is only used as an imbagon. do you see what is wrong with what i just said... 1 use in the whole game. the paragon is one of those classes i absolutely enjoy playing but when i go to pve with it they ask me to ping my build and i show some build other than imbagon. i am asked to change to the imbagon build and upon saying no they tell me that they have no use for me, even more so now with the HM missions. for this reason i end up H/H playing with my paragon in a game which i only play because actual skill is required and i enjoy the fact that other people are playing it with me.
with regards to pvp - HA, GvG, TA,RA,HB do you ever see a paragon? NO. what does that show? this shows that the class has become useless. therefore i come to my fundamental question. Do you really intend to render a class unusable as a primary profession after so many hours upon hours of scripting them? are you in any way masochists?
so, for the millionth time, fix that darned class.
Abond is useless, revert it. SoR is useless, fix it. DA, passable. SoP, useless, fix it. IJaFW, fix it, AoG, not even used in rspike anymore in ha, fix it. AoF, gah no comment. Cautery, /slitwrists.
and now witht he meta being made a split meta, what on earth is a party-requiring profession good for anymore. at least it was a bit concevable to take a para with Abond for a split maybe bonding the melee guys. now nothing. i know im saying this late but please i will keep nagging and whining till they are fixed because its a complete waste on both sides, both for players who spent so much money customizing one (me) and for you who have spent so much time and money to make one.
And by the way, sometimes it helps to listen and read posts which the community makes. skill balancers have their hands full with work but the players play the game and from what can be said some truth can naturally be extracted.
with regards to their power in 8v8. yes they are powerful but that is the name of the game, and they do not look so powerful to me when necros and mesmers are around. im sorry but if your mesmer or ranger can;t interrupt a DA, he is completely and utterly incompetant. and i never see anyone complaining about that partywide degen spell that hurts the backline so much
with regards to unremovability. true they cannot be removed but i heard well of silence, ulcerous lungs and vocal minority are really good vs paragons so don't say stupid things.
in conclusion i hope ANET start to think things through before executing certain actions and i honestly hope that instead of simply performing the updates they start talking PUBLICALLY about what they are about to do. 10 minds are better than 1 or 2. thank you.
ANET forgot they made paragons
lustnlood
Lord Of Blame
Everything you said is why I won't make a paragon.
Longasc
What shall we say. This happens all too often, in this case to an entire class.
Personally, I would not bet that they do something major to make Paragons more enjoyable till GW2 release, and then I am not sure what is going to happen to GW1. I guess they are content that there is at least the TNTF build left for Paragons.
Personally, I would not bet that they do something major to make Paragons more enjoyable till GW2 release, and then I am not sure what is going to happen to GW1. I guess they are content that there is at least the TNTF build left for Paragons.
lewis91
Winterclaw
Paragons were made after Anet decided they weren't going to focus on PvP anymore.
Evil_Necro
I was thrilled at the prospect at my paragon, got her to lvl 20 and made some interesting build..
but after a while..
mule.. >.>
but after a while..
mule.. >.>
Black Metal
my thoughts on Paragons also stands for Dervs. They really are only useful in PvE. For Paragons to be useful, you need all your allies in a tight little bunch, so all those chants and shouts affect everyone. That would be a gigantic tactical disadvantage in PvP. What more can you say.....the very fundamental way Paragons are most effective is a huge no-no in PvP. Make any skill tweaks you want, you won't see them in PvP.
As for Dervs, it's very similar. For Dervs to be most effective, they need to have 3 targets holding hands. Again, that won't ever happen in PvP. In PvE, they can tear through low- to mid-level mobs. It's just the way they were conceived, that puts them at an inherent disadvantage in PvP. I don't really see a way around this, skill tweaks notwithstanding, unles they were completely overhauled, which won't happen.
Just don't use them in PvP is all I can say. There's just no way around it.
As for Dervs, it's very similar. For Dervs to be most effective, they need to have 3 targets holding hands. Again, that won't ever happen in PvP. In PvE, they can tear through low- to mid-level mobs. It's just the way they were conceived, that puts them at an inherent disadvantage in PvP. I don't really see a way around this, skill tweaks notwithstanding, unles they were completely overhauled, which won't happen.
Just don't use them in PvP is all I can say. There's just no way around it.
Bowstring Badass
Can the same be said about assassins?
Dre
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis91
same... Made a paragon once, got to level 20 and then realised how useless they are.
They need more than some loving, i think i even like ritualists more than these guys. This
last time I logged in on my para (or rit) was to check if they didn't have any birthday presents yet
They need more than some loving, i think i even like ritualists more than these guys. This
last time I logged in on my para (or rit) was to check if they didn't have any birthday presents yet
Captain Krompdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre
this
last time i logged in on my para (or rit) was to check if they didn't have any birthday presents yet ^^^^^ qft ^^^^^
last time i logged in on my para (or rit) was to check if they didn't have any birthday presents yet ^^^^^ qft ^^^^^
shillo
Somebody brought up paras on the Wiki back in March. Izzy in fact replied (below, 'agree' refers to the question asked on the Wiki).
Quote:
I would agree here, a lot of the issues with the paragon is the fact that the tipping points with his resources so easily go from manageable to infinite, without some better gating mechanics to control the flow of resources you have to fully rely on recharge to gate his play. This is dangerous because in Guild Wars you can manipulate every resource which means if any skill is balanced by purely 1 resource it will become overpowered, and sense this class is allmost purely gated by 1 resource it's very easy for the whole class to cause problems. Add in high armor, instant cast skills, healing, res, and why not bring more!
Context: http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?...update_march_5Quote:
So yeah, they're useless, because anything else would be worse until they get a deep overhaul - something I doubt anyone at Anet will dare do, for fear of completely breaking the game balance for a long period of time.
Eddie Frenzy Spam
I wish ANET would forget about Assassins as well or any of the new classes.
Forgetting about Paragons was the best thing that ever happened.
Forgetting about Paragons was the best thing that ever happened.
street peddler
slowerpoke
the expansion classes just dont fit, might have been a better idea to extend the core than add extra ones. or just designed better ones 
afterall the original ones cover all the bases and the game was originally designed and balanced around them, they feel out of place.
afterall the original ones cover all the bases and the game was originally designed and balanced around them, they feel out of place.
Executioners Blood
I agree...they have one use in the game; well two actually, one is to added extra armor as a P/W then their is the mule character that mine has turned into. 
DaTa78
are you crazy paragons rule!! in pvp i use incoming top it off with fall back as an entire party heal added with a monk it really provides speed and easy heal, also go for the eyes, anthem of envy and 2 ranger spikes, with one axe liner
deep wound, sav, burn= fast death
deep wound, sav, burn= fast death
Sarevok Thordin
The problem with paragons started with the Incoming chains that flooded HA for a while and rained HELL with overly defensive power in an already defensive meta. When Anet had to control that, people just made whole teams of them, then Anet had to murder Incoming into the plate of CRAP that it is now. They just didn't count on people going to such lengths to abuse powerful skills, and players not wanting to take anti-shout skills to stop them in favour of something they are more used to.
Dervishes are not too bad, they have some uses if you work around their weak points (Like slow attack speed), AoG really caused alot of QQing when the defensive meta loyal got angry when their fortress was being smacked apart. I loved the old AoG, bring it back for a week Anet :P
Ritualists = Spirit Spam = Bad, Just bad, No, never do this. Turtling = not fun.
Assassins = Highest solo spike damage potential in the game and quite a thing for newbies to wiki builds for to take into the unorganised PvP arena RA. Scorned by organized players.
Dervishes are not too bad, they have some uses if you work around their weak points (Like slow attack speed), AoG really caused alot of QQing when the defensive meta loyal got angry when their fortress was being smacked apart. I loved the old AoG, bring it back for a week Anet :P
Ritualists = Spirit Spam = Bad, Just bad, No, never do this. Turtling = not fun.
Assassins = Highest solo spike damage potential in the game and quite a thing for newbies to wiki builds for to take into the unorganised PvP arena RA. Scorned by organized players.
Stealth Assassin
There is another positive thing about a Paragon:
They have some kickass FoW armor!
They have some kickass FoW armor!
own age myname
Paragons used to own HA. But those days have died...
Esprit
Unless Paragon's see a rather spectacular change in their abilities, a change to a few skills will doubtfully render them useful again. You may see a month of meta of players trying to use (abuse) the changes, but in the end, Paragon's will fall off of players' purview once more.
Lishy
Quote:
Originally Posted by own age myname
Paragons used to own HA. But those days have died...
This.
But only in the next two days will tell whether ANET gives a damn in the next update. I want my skill buffs
Besides. I'm stuck with a stupid, useless Harry Potter looking spear-chucking Paragon as my main in PvE, yet with no builds to play. Which sucks, because I accomplished a LOT on him!
But only in the next two days will tell whether ANET gives a damn in the next update. I want my skill buffs
Besides. I'm stuck with a stupid, useless Harry Potter looking spear-chucking Paragon as my main in PvE, yet with no builds to play. Which sucks, because I accomplished a LOT on him!
wetwillyhip
Although OP i do see para's now being used in RA, AB, and TA with the dazing spear spammer...still, that is the only build i see in pvp. There seems to be a single use for paras in pvp and one in pve, period. I leveled my para through NF, then i forgot about her.. i mean.. voltaic spears almost aren't worth equipping for her since everything else about her is not that great. i would agree with everything else said.
Skyy High
The only reason people only use paragons as imbagons is because, well, that build is so damn powerful there's no reason why you'd use anything else. Without it, a paragon can do just as much damage, ranged, as a warrior, especially when you take into consideration all the damage boosting they're doing for all the other physicals in the party. If you want people to play something other than imbagon, you're just gonna have to nerf TNTF and SY, because buffing paragons right now would be absurd, the intelligence of the average PUG player notwithstanding.
Alleji
I'm fine with them being useless because cranking the numbers back up will make them absolutely broken, as they have been at release. There's no middle ground using this approach.
The only way I can see the class alive is to smiter's boon the whole motivation line and make chants/shouts unstackable. Then you can fiddle with the (remaining) numbers and see if that helps.
...or they could buff the skills in PvE only. Imbagon already exists, so PvE isn't about to get more stupid - there will just be more options for stupid.
The only way I can see the class alive is to smiter's boon the whole motivation line and make chants/shouts unstackable. Then you can fiddle with the (remaining) numbers and see if that helps.
...or they could buff the skills in PvE only. Imbagon already exists, so PvE isn't about to get more stupid - there will just be more options for stupid.
Lishy
Skyy High, I would actually disagree.
Even without those two skills, there's still a major lack of strategies.
The best one I've seen in action as of yet is daze spam. And we all know what that accomplishes in PvE.
As a paragon, I rarely use my motivation line, and I would not use my command line if not for Anthem of Weariness. That said, those attributes have some of the most useless skills, such as Anthem of Guidance.
A major problem with Paragon's motivation line, for example, is that they can't do enough with it. Honestly, I'd like to see more than hard-to-apply heals that everyone else can do better.
They're not the best batteries and we all know BIP can do whatever a Paragon does, energy wise, better. And we all know Ritualists also make waaaaay better healers than a Paragon, despite using the same concept of a hybrid.
The motivation line is practically useless.
As for command, it isn't as bad. But they should give it a better offense.
"Find Their Weakness!" is bad because is requires a critical hit. This might be synergetic with sins, but it's still overall not worth a slot.
"Help Me!" is absolutely useless. Period.
And Image:"Brace Yourself!" should be party-wide.
Paragons, especially motivation, is a broken concept that may as well be re-worked.
Even without those two skills, there's still a major lack of strategies.
The best one I've seen in action as of yet is daze spam. And we all know what that accomplishes in PvE.
As a paragon, I rarely use my motivation line, and I would not use my command line if not for Anthem of Weariness. That said, those attributes have some of the most useless skills, such as Anthem of Guidance.
A major problem with Paragon's motivation line, for example, is that they can't do enough with it. Honestly, I'd like to see more than hard-to-apply heals that everyone else can do better.
They're not the best batteries and we all know BIP can do whatever a Paragon does, energy wise, better. And we all know Ritualists also make waaaaay better healers than a Paragon, despite using the same concept of a hybrid.
The motivation line is practically useless.
As for command, it isn't as bad. But they should give it a better offense.
"Find Their Weakness!" is bad because is requires a critical hit. This might be synergetic with sins, but it's still overall not worth a slot.
"Help Me!" is absolutely useless. Period.
And Image:"Brace Yourself!" should be party-wide.
Paragons, especially motivation, is a broken concept that may as well be re-worked.
Nessar
Paragons seriously NEED a rework/buff or something done to them. I lvl'd my para to 20, got through eotn and now shes my mule. Shes pretty durn useless unless I run imbagon, but I'm not going to bother to get the skills since I don't play her anyway. Hell, my ranger plays as r/p and can do it better then my para. Same with w/p.
Paras desperately need some attention :/ Along with rits, but they are still useful, just their prim att sucks.
Paras desperately need some attention :/ Along with rits, but they are still useful, just their prim att sucks.
Shayne Hawke
PvP doesn't need Paragons. For that matter, PvP doesn't really need any of the expansion classes, and it seems as of late that it's more the case that core classes are being used and expansion classes' skills are being abused.
In PvE, there's pretty much one definitive role for the Paragon: party support. The Imbagon is the optimal build for the Paragon to do this, so why run anything else? The answer for this would be to give Paragons something else they can do that would make them be important, but I'm no expert to Paragons, so the only advice I could suggest is to give them more damage potential in PvE. Straight nerfing the Imbagon would be a nice solution, for the sake of making PvE challenging, but if it turns out that the only reason players take Paragons is for the Imbagon build, then killing the build may just kill players' desire for partying with that class.
In PvE, there's pretty much one definitive role for the Paragon: party support. The Imbagon is the optimal build for the Paragon to do this, so why run anything else? The answer for this would be to give Paragons something else they can do that would make them be important, but I'm no expert to Paragons, so the only advice I could suggest is to give them more damage potential in PvE. Straight nerfing the Imbagon would be a nice solution, for the sake of making PvE challenging, but if it turns out that the only reason players take Paragons is for the Imbagon build, then killing the build may just kill players' desire for partying with that class.
FoxBat
TNTF is enough reason to bring paras alone, there are some funny near-perma TNTF builds that at least let you do a little more than mindless SY spam.
Antares Ascending
.
I usually just shake my head at 'another' (insert class here) R Suxors but the Paragon is.....almost good.
Handy in pve for buffs but my Para is a male mule in a dress
I usually just shake my head at 'another' (insert class here) R Suxors but the Paragon is.....almost good.
Handy in pve for buffs but my Para is a male mule in a dress
Raudic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
Can the same be said about assassins?
this is true, sins are only used for perma and nothing else
also mesmers and ritualists are in the same boat
also mesmers and ritualists are in the same boat
kazjun
I'd probably care more if paras hadn't stolen and broke all my warrior shouts till anet nerfed tactics into oblivion...
Gift3d
There's only a few great paragon skills that are useful in a bunch of areas in the game, and those are used more easily and often more efficiently as a secondary profession.
On the other hand though, i absolutely love paragons.
On the other hand though, i absolutely love paragons.
Masmar
Quote:
with regards to pvp - HA, GvG, TA,RA,HB do you ever see a paragon? NO.
Yes, Paragons call in HA
Lishy
Skyy High, keep in mind that the Warrior is WAY more versatile than Spears. Warrior has as much as ten times the skills a Paragon has.
I would not compare them unless barbed spear to sever artery.
I would not compare them unless barbed spear to sever artery.
LONGA
Reason why paragon suck in PvE is that most paragon builds only effective in certain team builds.And imbagon build is the most easy to use that can be use in any team.
My favorite is "Goes for the eye!" + Keen arrow.Very good spike damage if done right.
My favorite is "Goes for the eye!" + Keen arrow.Very good spike damage if done right.
FengShuiDove
Obrien Xp