Update - Thursday, May 14

Martin brought up an interesting point which I'm compelled to test - is anyone else a forumgoer on other GW boards and if so what are the reactions to the update there?

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=488605

From the looks of it, they don't like it that much either.

SoH is even more useless then it was (Pvp)

I dunno what they were thinking, I guess PvErs need it more than PvP.

As for the Aegis chaining, thank christ it's gone. I can handle spike catching but party wide chaining of guardian is just horrendously annoying. I wonder when people will counter the lack of defense with more offense....

I also don't see why people are crying so much about needing to smartly use WoH now, that's how it was back in the old days too.

German boards speculate about using Cripshot instead of Melshot.

But many still blame Izzy, and also still use the "random button" phrase. Guru posters already use the "dartboard" metaphor.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=376
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=386

wartower.de: I just reread the two threads about the update there, some complains about no significant pve-buffs to rt or para and roj still causing no scatter, but the majority is quite happy with the update (besides the regular "OMG Izzy/Anet-Fails" comments).
gw.onlinewelten.com: [[hunter's shot]-nerf is to hard, but not even a single post that calls this update bad.
gw-tactics.de: 2 months for this? Nerfs hit necro to hard in TA, no roj-nerf, not many positive feedbacks about the update.

All are german fansites.

He analyzed the process and came to the conclusion;
a)the process is ineffective
b)the process is also inefficient time wise

I'd also agree the process is mind boggling, hence why we get piss poor and small updates. Defend it all you want, but that's the reality.

Corporate environments or processes are their own demise if you've ever worked in one. You increase the amount of people a simple decision goes through, you increase the amount of variables, road blocks, and from draft to final the gap grows.

Not that I am too keen on the skill, but maybe just use [glyph of renewal] or [glyph of swiftness] ???

Or just Echo it.

Kinda useless considering you'll be echoing it for 1 use (30 second recharge). It's basically like wasting your elite on another Aegis.

I'm still waiting for a developer update on this though. We've gotten them in the past, or have they decided it's just not important anymore?



EDIT: Alright, thanks Arkantos, I must have overlooked it whilst browsing the thread. I probably should have browsed slower.

12 characters

Looks like I missed the boat. Oh, well, it's my first time seeing one of these updates first hand.

Dervs still suck. Not surprised. Didn't expect them to get anything, really (paras and rits need love much more). It's as if Anet intended them to be near-useless in PvP and have nothing but avatars going for them in PvE (most of them suck, of course, but hey).

Paras got nothing. No surprise. I don't think Anet even remembers they exist.

Rits got a nerf? And their primary attribute is still worthless? I can understand that they want to encourage rits to use skills other than PwK, but what they fail to understand is that rits use PwK not because it is overpowered, but out of necessity; much like how having a few monks in your party is crucial to success. Without an accompanying buff to the rest of the rit's arsenal, diversification will only hurt them. And if said buff doesn't involve spawning power in some way, N/Rts will just make primary Rts redundant (much as they do now).

RoJ didn't get a nerf (or rather, AI didn't get a buff to recognize it as AoE and scatter)? I'm sorry, Anet, but I think it's important for you to realize that monks are a SUPPORT profession. They are the best healers and protectors in the game. They shouldn't be great nukers as well. Smiting is supposed to be a niche tree. Fix this, please.

And SF...What can I say? Clearly, Anet has reversed it's stance on god mode skills since Ursan.

And so, I'd like for someone to tell me how to go about starting a formal petition to Anet. Not to nerf perma-SF, oh no (I'm sure somebody has already tried that); a petition to give every other profession their own perma-SF. If Anet wants to allow god mode in their game, that's fine. I can live with that. What is unacceptable is to reserve it for one profession. Every profession has a right to complete and total invulnerability just as much as the Assassin.

So, now, I eagerly await the next update, in which I fully expect the following skills to be implemented:


Signet of Immortality (Warrior)
2 activation, 10 recharge, attribute: strength
Elite signet. For (1...20) sec, whenever you lose health you gain back an equal amount.

Sacrifice Pet (Ranger)
5 energy, 2 activation, 4 recharge, attribute: expertise
Elite Stance. For (1...16) sec, if your pet is alive and an action occurs that would kill you, your pet dies instead and you are brought to full health.

Glyph of Greater Invulnerability (Elementalist)
15 energy, 3 activation, 5 recharge, attribute: energy storage
Elite Glyph. For (1...12) sec, anytime an enemy attempts to attack you or target you with a spell, it misses and you gain 5 energy.

Proactive Resurrection (Monk)
5 energy, 1/4 activation, 3 recharge, attribute: divine favor
Elite Enchantment Spell. For (1...12) sec, any time that you would die for any reason, you are instead brought to full health.

Illusion of Game Balance (Mesmer)
10 energy, 2 activation, 3 recharge, attribute: fast casting
Elite Hex Spell. Affects all enemies in area. For (1...12) sec, any time affected foes attempt to attack or target you with a spell, they instead target themselves.

Animate Self (Necromancer)
10 energy, 2 activation, 1 recharge, attribute: soul reaping
Elite Enchantment Spell. For (1...18) sec, if you are enchanted with Death Nova and any action occurs that would kill you, you are instead brought to full health and recieve energy via soul reaping as if you had died.

Unkillable Was Shadow Form (Ritualist)
10 energy, 4 activation, 20 recharge, attribute: spawning power
Elite Item Spell. Hold Shadow Form's ashes for (1...30) sec. While holding the ashes, if there is a spirit in the area, you and all allied spirits in the area become invulnerable and the spirit's lifespans are frozen. When you drop the ashes, the spirits' lifespans are reset.

"This Is Not the Enemy You Are Searching For" (Paragon)
2 adrenaline, attribute: leadership
Elite Shout. For (1...16) sec, all hostile attacks and spells miss you.

Avatar of Every F***ing God Put Together, Including that B**** Kormir (Dervish)
10 energy, 3 activation, 30 recharge, attribute: mysticism
Elite Form. You gain infinite hp for (12...70) sec. This skill is disabled for 120 sec.

They just need to add Deathknights to Guild Wars. I mean, really now... LOL. The good news is...

Yep, that's the next I tried. Glyph of renewal sounds like the best option, maybe taking care of energy. glyph of swiftness isn't enough to lower the recharge time.

btw, I saw yesterday a mo with the elite glyph and aegis and still was kinda useless (or at least imo)...

Gawd, people are overreacting DX

As funny as all that is, I really like the ritualists skill. Maybe a not so strong version would be ok at least for PvE. Something like:

Unkillable Was Shadow Form (Ritualist)
10 energy, 4 activation, 20 recharge, attribute: spawning power
Elite Item Spell. Hold Shadow Form's ashes for (1...30) sec. While holding the ashes, if there is a spirit in the area, you and all allied spirits in the area gain +40 armor. When you drop the ashes, the spirits' lifespans are reset.

Gotta love the use of the buzz-word "god mode"...SF isn't even close to "god mode". Activating it doesn't kill every enemy in the instance. You're not invulnerable, at all. traps, touches, signets, PBAoE all ignore it. And according to most, Assassins don't have any other use in PvE than perma shadow form(laughable but it's argued often) so why take that away and kill the profession?

This is just another "I don't want to do it so you shouldn't be able to either" whinge-fest. Perma SF makes most of the game possible to be played by casual players. Period. Yes it's abused by hardcore players but who cares? All it does is bring prices down on everything, FOR CASUAL PLAYERS. What's the problem, other than you might just want to preserve prices on stuff that you want to hoard and sell?

And monks already have two versions of your so-called "god mode": the 55 and the 600.

Gotta love the use of the buzz-word "god mode"...SF isn't even close to "god mode". Activating it doesn't kill every enemy in the instance. You're not invulnerable, at all. traps, touches, signets, PBAoE all ignore it. And according to most, Assassins don't have any other use in PvE than perma shadow form(laughable but it's argued often) so why take that away and kill the profession?

This is just another "I don't want to do it so you shouldn't be able to either" whinge-fest. Perma SF makes most of the game possible to be played by casual players. Period. Yes it's abused by hardcore players but who cares? All it does is bring prices down on everything, FOR CASUAL PLAYERS. What's the problem, other than you might just want to preserve prices on stuff that you want to hoard and sell?

And monks already have two versions of your so-called "god mode": the 55 and the 600.

Hooray, a reason to use pets! Although stances don't have activation, but who cares about game mechanics anymore?

ROFL, what a joke, just farm in areas that don't have that. It's god mode and you know it.

For once I agree with ^ Fay. It's been god mode for awhile now and needs to be nerfed to oblivion. At least give it a cool down period like the dervisher FORMS. It's a FORM and you nerfed DERVISHER FORMS TO SMITHEREENS so nerf Shadowform to smithereens as well.

Yes, ShadowForm should not be perma.

And the juggernauts/turtles in JQ a fix.
And RoJ should cause the AI to spread out.

Would be a fabtastic fix for next months so called balance update.

Since when is it "god mode" to not die when going somewhere specific solo with a specific skill bar? So 55 and 600 Monks are "god mode" too? How about Vaetirfarm with Obisdian Flesh or Ice Impfarm?

Yes, let us assume that your idea of balance is the correct one and move on.


Pff. Right. While I don't disagree that those things need to be adjusted, calling ANets' balancing style, "so-called balance" isn't correct. Maybe it's not the idea of balance that we would like to envision, but ANet has to have some sort of system/plan in changing the shit they do.

Its the spin that some members of the community seem to put on it, makes it sound just that much more bad.

Its hillarious there was nowhere near the uproar over the 55 solo/duo or whatever its variation back in the day.

In fact i quite remember the very few threads about it where laughed at or trolled to the point where the thread was deleted or locked.

Speaking of which, when are we supposed to get the update notes? I really want to hear the thought that went into these changes.

so apparently Shadow Form = Ursan.

and casuals are the cancer killing video games.

actually, SF is worse than Ursan. Ursan at least required a team. The fact that Anet nerfed that but hasn't nerfed an even more overpowered skill is what frustrates all of us.

55 monks arent nearly as bad as SF.

And I wasn't kidding. I really wouldn't mind it if everyone had their own perma-SF. But they don't. So how is it fair that sins and only sins get what is for all practical purposes total invulnerability?

If you really think that it's okay for a character to have god mode, then join my petition, so that the joys of it may be brought to the masses. Unless you just want to hoard it all for yourselves.

Lol...........LOL! Just, freaken LOL!
I don't see any concepts in variety in builds being ruined. I don't see discrimination or grinding to get into a title because 80% of pugs are "GLF R8+ URSAN!"
Have you wondered the true reason they nerfed Ursan? And why it took so long? I'll let you find out yourself.

And overpowered? AS IF! The most you can do as a perma is tank or keg farming. And I don't see permas running COF.

As for sins getting their own shadowform but not others, HELLOOOO!!!
Elementalists got mist form and obsidian armor!
Besides. What's wrong with a class with a skill that's effect was intended for? We were able to perma even before the buff to Glyph of Swiftness and Shadow Form.

And who said it was god mode? I dare you to do a CoF run.. There's just so many vulnerabilities with shadow form that I'm not even going to get started..
Though I'm going to ask: Haven't you wondered why Shadow Form can't farm many areas, despite its NEAR-invincibility in some?

You wanted every class to get so called "god" mode (Which is irrelevant)?
Well, then it will be the same problem pre-nerf to ursan. Shadow form gives the game variety in builds. It's actually a GOOD thing that Assassins can use it and Warriors cannot.

Stop talking nonesense. I'm tired of all this Shadow Form QQ.
If you're "mad" because people have another method of farming, yet a difficult to handle method, then that's just pathetic.

Please get some common sense in video game design. And stop calling it god mode. Shadow Form is nothing more than a fun tool to the game for farming.

See the bit in bold? That is the problem, so let's address it

Ursan was nerfed for the fact that it allowed the use/abuse of a not thought through game mechanic to speed clear areas such as UW, FoW, DoA and ppl cried continuosly about it the funnier thing is that it required nothing other than the flipping of your skillbar in ursan mode.

1 Ursan player on his own = Failure couldn't farm if he life depended on it
3 Ursan players = not much better
6 Ursan + 2 monks = Rip everything to pieces

Now to the Perma-Sin

Perma-sin Is the abuse of Game mechanics to allow a permanent 50% HSR on Shadow Form (Hence permanent Shadow Form) apart from PBAoE, Mes Signets, Traps and a few other rare instances, in the main you can walk around any area all day long with SF up and get receive no damage.

1 Perma-sin on his own = Can farm just about every area in the game solo, can vanquish areas solo, can run dungeons solo
3 Perma-sins = can do the above faster
8 Perma-sin = Breaks the game into tiny pieces (but it is not OP )

You see a Perma teams doesn't even need a monk unless it simply wanted to be completely over cautious, but the monk would slow them down.

Ursan was OP for sure, but Perma is far more so and in some ways is killing this game off as all people want to do is speed clear so come the time (if ever) that A-net wake up and realise that Perma-SF has broken the game, AoE without scatter on a support character is simply stupid, PvE only skills need taking down a few notches, then what we will be left with is about 20% of the current gaming population crying for months that they now have to farm slower than before (the reason I say farm slower is that all these people do non-stop day in and day out is farm)

I Play PvE in the main but also Play some PvP but I completely understand why the PvP players have little regard for PvE'rs and unfortunately things like the perma-sins are the cause of this.

why? well, 99% of SC players would truly like nothing more than the most OP skills that allow for areas to be cleared a.s.a.p, if you gave them the chance to have [glyph of swiftness][deadly paradox][shadow form][kills all foes in area 10x aggro circle OP Uber nuke] on their bar they would take it and defend it's use by saying well it been given to be used, but it is not OP yadda yadda yadda

That is the mentality of about 20% of PvE players and it has unfortunately tarred the rest the same way.

The rest are a mish mash of ppl learning the game, ppl that actually play through missions, VQ's etc.. and have some idea that they need to change bars dependent upon area, you nkow actually put some thought into what they do

PvP depends on balance which is why you will always see PvP complain the loudest about poor skill balancing as it affects their style of play FAR MORE than in PvE

In Summary

Shadow Form is not OP on it's own (like any Sin uses it this way lol )

Perma-form is not OP? LMAO you truly shouldn't be commenting in a thread about game balance if you think this as you unfortunately do not have a clue what your talking about.

All this arguing about OP skills etc... siply comes back to the point however that A-nets simply do not seem to know what is wrong with their own game, do not seem to have a clue how to balance skills for PvP and seem to be merely making dartboard buffs or nerfs in the attempt to shift meta's

Wake up A-Net FFS before this game dies from apathy

So I heard you can do UW in 30 minutes with SF?

a well thought out, excellent post

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena..._December_2008

They have decided to keep SF in the game (despite knowing how broken it is) BECAUSE it's fun.
So unless they changed their minds - I see no reason to nerf it.
SF is still fun.

Good post upier ( I saw what you did there )

Doesn't that simply point to the problem with A-net and there inability to see where they have and are going wrong, it is almost like they do not understand their own game or the mechanics behind it.

There reason for nerfing Ursan (waits for the conspiracy theorists to pop out of the woodwork for having the temerity to mention the dreaded Ursan nerf) is that in their eyes the game mechanic was being abused by the abilities of the "skill bar" (even though they designed it that way and you would assume had play tested it across a number of scenarios) they didn't like the fact that a group of "Ursans" could simply stroll on through places such as DoA (as long as they had 2 monks to keep the bears alive) and thus decided to Nerf it.

So now we have Perma teams, who have taken to the Ursan idea to new levels of idiocy and don't even need any healers in the party to be sure of survival, let's be completely truthful here, Perma is as close to godmode as you will ever get it makes Ursan pale by comparison, it clears areas Ursan couldn't, it is faster than ursan ever was or could have hoped to be and is so Broken that you can basically solo just about everywhere you want.

Despite this A-Net deems Shadow Form as really fun?

It seems to me that A-net truly need to sit down and look at their game and push on for a big skill balance, to simply keep saying all resources are now pushed towards GW2 isn't acceptable, yes we all want the sequel but at the same time we all purchased this game so they have a duty of upkeep, more and more players are disillusioned and when you see players discussing what is broken in game for 6 months or more and there is STILL no action from the developers it doesn't bode well.

It is clear their priorities were pushed towards the pay for content, which is fine as long as the upshot from this is that they put more development into place for GW and not use it to springboard GW2, somehow I can't see this happening.

If the game stays as it is for a few more months then expect to see the population in game lessen even more, GW needs a shake up but are the dev's ever going to bother to do this?

You want to know why I love Shadow Form? Because I can actually get things done in a reasonable time. I don't want to sit in ToA and spam all day looking for a pug, or even get a guild that specializes in UW/FoW for all that matter. I play the game to have fun, not sit through the whole UW for 3hours and get what, 2-3ecto? I can get it done in 30min with SF (but PUGs still fail alot). Shadow Form actually makes me get things done, I can realistically get Obby armor without wasting time I could be in real life.

If Anet nerfs SF, that'll be the last straw for me. I've been having a lot of fun lately doing successful FoWSC with PUGs. If you don't like SF then please, let the people who do use it. The only reason you should care if you're precious ecto stack prices are dropping, but why care? You're probably rich anyway from gimmick just as bad as SF, back in the day.

I'm not going to get started on the whole Ursan argument....

Anet uses ShadowForm themselves for everything. That's why they don't nerf it. Heck, they would even play ShadowFarm in GvG if they could because it would be fun!

They use ShadowForm to block our comments on how to balance as well.

Meh. They should just turn Shadow Form into something like 10/2/60 and "While Shadow Form is maintained, all other effects you maintain end and your Energy regeneration is reduced to -1. You may not be targetted, are invisible to NPCs and do not cause aggro. You are also protected from all external effects, friendly or hostile, and may only use skills that affect yourself. Shadow Form does not begin to recharge while it is active." or some such thing.

ie, turn it into something that you can use to escape and have some time to heal up or whatever, or even to travel through nasty areas - but not use to attack from safety while in combat. Probably some way to abuse even this, but shouldn't be easy to farm with 'cept maybe to get to areas that would otherwise be inaccessable 'cos of the nasties in the way that could poke through the old version...

I. agree with this part 100%

First, yes, I think SF is overpowered, even though I myself use it a lot for farming. I don't want to see it nerfed to complete uselessness, however.

I would like to see it made impossible to maintain permanently, perhaps by making it a form, but then remove the dmg penalty and remove or reduce the health penalty. Make it so the sin either has to jump in, do the damage and jump out or else take along a bonder to cover the time when SF is down.

However, in the bigger picture, removing the perma-sin ability will not open up areas to new people. Sorry, but the reality is that the game is now at the point where it is no longer pug friendly and there is no real going back. Things like the zcoin bounty quests will work for a short while to get people to play together. But the days of playing with pugs are gone forever for most of the game. Ending perma-sin will only make farmers go else where with other builds to accomplish their individual goals. Many of us are at the point of getting the cash for the more expensive titles or other individual goals and can't be bothered with the time investment of pugs. Places like ToA will simply empty out.

So, if the expectation is that ending perma will encourage group play, forget about it. Won't happen. That is already a dead duck.