All violent video games to be banned in Germany

I'm sorry, but groups of people hitting each other with swords, throwing fireballs at each other and shooting each other with arrows is most definitly violence.
It isn't graphic, it isn't extreme and it most certainly isn't anything to get worked up about, but it is violence.

Trying to say violent games have a profound, long term affect on the people who play them (and passing laws over it) is stupid though. There is absolutely no evidence for it.
Saying they have absolutely no effect isn't too bright either, but it's a much more logical and reasonable assumption for a starting point.

current situation : 100 people play games that is label as "violent", 50 of those are label as most likely to commit a crime of the "violent" sort, but because they could spend time playing computer game and express their "violence" in the game, only 5 of the 50 actually goes out and commit violent crime.

after the ban: all 50 goes on a violent crime spree

You can't remove scars, they are just makeup like the Zombie makeup.

I find it scary that a first world, free country could impose such a massive censorship campaign.

Wonder how long it'll be before driving games have been banned because "People who break the speed limit ALWAYS play driving games"

I love going over 200mph on Burnout yet I've never used the outside lane of the motorway.

I also think it's shocking that games like WoW and GW class as violent. The graphics are not realistic (WoW especially) and most of the time your using magic anyway. I'd be very surprised if I opened the paper and the headline was "12 Killed In School Magic Indecent. After playing the game Guild Wars, school boy Joe Bloggs went to school and killed 11 classmates using Searing Flames before taking his own life with Blood is Power. a witness blames PvX wiki for giving him the build."

So this means there won't be any rspike or bspike no more?

The icon for Dismember looks eerily like a human arm cut in two

Even though this is obvious acting, things like this are a prime example of a lack of parenting.

We have as many issues with violence and crime in the youth today, not because of violent games/movies/music, but because parents aren't doing their damn jobs. Giving your child a cell phone and a credit card, then dropping them at the mall to 'do whatever' isn't parenting. Giving them game after game to keep them entertained so you don't have to deal with them is not parenting.

Limits need to be set on game play and tv watching. Discipline needs to be brought back into the home environment. Children should not be allowed to do whatever the hell they want; which is exactly what's happening today because parents are afraid to discipline their children.

Violence has always been around. There have been how many wars overthe course of history? Animals kill and eat each other as part of the natural course of life. Violence is a part of nature, and violent movies and games have been around for ages. (Remember resident evil on the Atari anyone? I sure as hell do). So what's the difference between then and now? (Besides, graphics obviously). Discipline. It wasn't long ago parents would make children go out and pick a limb from a tree to receive their spanking with. Kids were a whole hell of a lot better behaved at that point!

As for the OP's issue that violent games cause our children to be violent....b*llsh*t. There are studies that show violent games increase violent tenancies, and then there are studies that show it doesn't. The issue with all these 'studies' is that they can be made to show anything they want based on who is performing the study and under what circumstances the questions are being asked.

By all means you have to ban Risk, because you get the urge to throw dice on a street corner and smoke crack.

good post.

But the snipers couldn't take him down because he had "Shadow Form" up permanently. When he died a police officer ran up to him and zranked him at level 1.


Maybe, they think every gamer acts like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVmfIUR1DA

well maybe only about 80 percent of them.

Our Politicians don't see te improtant difference(s) between Games like Manhunt and Games like Rainbow Six, Counter-Strike etc.

the german administration already "bans" games, which are too violent. e.g. gears of war is on the index and the press, regardless of printed or online, is not allowed to even mention it in any way. also, you can't buy it at local stores.

this is populism and nothing more.

I dunno about that. After finally beating Fendi, I generally want to kick someone in the teeth.

Video games may make somebody tense, potentially angry and generally more violent than they would normally be, but these are only short-term effects and are the only effects we have observed.

Besides, this isn't unique to video games. Perhaps we should ban sports too.


Thank you.

Consider the following headlines:
"Gamer goes on Killing Spree after playing violent games"
"Badly raised kid with shit parents loses it - nobody suprised"

Both of those are equally valid, but only one of them highlights the cause. Hint: it isn't the first one.
In some cases, it appears games are being used as a scapegoat.

Martin was just talking to me about this issue yesterday, and what the political climate is like in Germany and how politicians there view videogames.

So Regina what is your opinion on the issue at hand?

I can't comment on the intricacies of German politics.

In general, and this seems to be the case in the US, too, I think politicians want to find easy answers to social problems. Because many people in older generations don't understand new technology, it's easy for them to suggest that videogames cause problems.

But if you look at the actual studies out there, the answers are really not clear cut at all. Terra Nova had a really interesting piece a few weeks ago discussing this issue, and also talking about the nature of such studies in general.

I also think in most cases that they try to blame violence on games, it is actually a move of defense by the lawyers for their client(one who committed crime). It also seems kind of a way to point blame into a very grey area right now in the legal system. Orange is the new black and being able to put blame on a tangible object (video game) almost is like they have a reason for the "insanity" plea. Instead of just saying my client is insane, they say "this(gameX)" is why my client is insane and it is not their fault for their own actions that followed exposure.

Of course I don't believe any of this crap, but Lawyers are lawyers. They will find what every way they can to defend their client, right or wrong.

Isn't blaming games for violent behavior normalizing violent behavior itself? It's essentially saying we're all inherently violent/murderous in nature, and that all it takes to push us over the edge into full-on murder sprees is one violent game. It's saying that it's not the fault of the person committing the act of violence, nor his lack of parenting, self-control and sense of reality vs fantasy; it's the existence of violent games that should be blamed. When you look at it that way, I don't see how you can even consider the argument against violent games remotely logical anymore.

Violent games are created not out of thin air but due tot he fact that the events protrayed in the games are directly linked tot he evnts that have been happening prior to thweir creation in real life......Wars are real....Clashing Armies are real.....all games do are puting these events into the form in which the gamer can relive them in the virtual universe....now how player vioews it is solely depends on his stgate of mind....some might look at the horrors of war in the video game..then apply it to real life and realize that

"Oh s**t now i know what my grandfather went through in WW2.. let me give him a call"

Others on the other hand will think the oposite....neither of the 2 cause crimes to be commited..they just serve as reminders,examples and fictional futures of the world we live in......

Horror games on the other hand are based on ghosts demons,mental disfunctions and such...helps you get into mind of the freaks and serial killers and in no way make you become them.

they should ban the news also then, all the violence and bad stuff on it

Maybe you should say to all GW2-Developers, that we in Germany need big pink cubes as Monsters .

Germany is easy:
If you have any problem, everything is bad what a normal 40+ Citizen has never seen before.
Don't talk much about problems in School, don't much talk about problems in the social system.

Does this mean no more Sim City? I mean, nuking cities with tornadoes and meteors is pretty violent, right?

I hardly think it will happen. Germany is hard on violent video games, but actually going through with a complete ban would probably not happen even if the ministers wants it. First of all they have a reputation to think about. Banning those video games would be a huge kick in the balls for a great part of the german population, including potential voters, + it also means a crack in the liberal ways of modern germany. Besides it's a huge market so certain economic factors would probably also make it a very bad idea.

I do my job very well thank you very much

What doesn't help is all these do-gooder people who try to butt into your life telling you how to raise your kids! taking all the powers away from them so they can do jack.... And i'm not condoning violence either... but a smack on my bum was enough to deter me from displeasing my parents. I personally take away privileges for a while which works a treat

Although it is true that SOME parents don't give a shit and let their kids run riot & beat up defenceless old people in their own homes! don't lump me(or other good parents that frequent this forums) in with them... OK?

I'd love to see Germany banned. That way, American guilds will once again dominate the Guild Ladder

Funny story about primates I heard on PNR.

Young primates will often try to get new food sources and train how to use them amongst each other. But even if a group of apes finds an abundant new food source to eat, the group members beyond a certain age will refuse to eat from that new source. Scientists believe that this is an evolutionary result and the older apes refuse in order to ward the group from long term negative effects. If the new food turns out to be poison after all, the group will survive due to only the youngest members adapting to the trend and dying. If the food checks out, the group will convert, but it will take the older apes to die off in order to reach 100% acceptance.

Now what do all these things have in common?

Books -> Pictures -> Movies -> Radio -> Comics -> TV -> Rock -> Metal -> Video Games -> The Internet -> ???

Right, they were all deemed the work of Satan at one point and each of these things was "corrupting" the youth at some point. Which goes to show us two things:
(1) We're just like a bunch of apes
(2) Of course the older apes will exploit that when it comes to public votes.


If you though you were safe living in the U.S. instead of Germany, then read this. D.C. at its best; yes the guy suggesting a ban on Pizza slices IS wearing a funny bow tie at all times. I say, order in while you can. His immigrant story will have you rotflol.

And maybe we can start UWSC from ToA AD1 with people who actually speak English. Knowing the words "fail" and "noob" don't qualify one as an English speaker.

As racist as it may sound, I must agree that UWSC'ing with people who don't know any English outside of "noob" and "failer! pay cons!" is pretty annoying.

On a serious note, I doubt this will be passed and even if it is I don't believe it will be enforced. What are they gonna do, bust into your house; say HANDS UP, STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER and scan your C: drive for a violent game? It will most likely be like shooting fireworks in the US, many states have outlawed it but almost none enforce it.

wow i dunno if this is true and it's hard to believe, especially from some random news site. I'd need more solid proof around many sources that this is in effect. Even if it is true, they still have to get the bill through parliament.

Might be something to do with this.



But seriously... it is probably just the politicians blowing smoke again. A few times every year, some suit stands up and says he is going to find a way to protect us from the internet. It should blow over in a week, as German officials will be bombarded with e-mails and angry letters telling them what they can do with their policy. Besides, how does one actually enforce a policy like that without destroying a person's privacy? "Hello, we are from the police. We would like to scan your hard-drive to make sure that you don't have Crysis on there somewhere."

In addition, banning a large portion of an industry outright is a great way to kill jobs.

It is a stupid policy that will never make it through. You want to get re-elected? Don't kill jobs or piss off a large percentage of registered voters!

Too many politicians make the mistake of thinking that passing stupid laws somehow counts as "progress"...

Time to get flamed I guess.

While it is a terrible way to rectify societal errors, and while it most likely is in response to the school shooting some time back, video games have nevertheless been tied persuasively (not conclusively) to certain accounts of violence, notably the notorious school shootings.

GTA has influenced a few (depending on your views, a few may be too many) acts of violence, with impressionable adolescents reenacting in real life what they'd done thousands of times.

You can argue that it's fine to portray violence as it really is, and I guess that it's amazing how close to real games are getting these days, but it also has the adverse effect of de-sensitizing violence. Rewarding players for brutality is pretty screwed up, if you think about it.

Yeah, yeah, there's a fine line between playing it and going out and doing the real thing, but when you play...I don't know, Medal of Honor Frontline (old game, I know) and you're storming up Normandy and going "wow this is awesome", few also think, "wait, this was a nightmare for tens of thousands of men, a site of horrific violence".

Banning games is going too far. I don't support censorship in any way shape or form, but you cannot deny that many games out there transmit sentiments to their impressionable audiences that aren't quite healthy.

Someone had to argue for the point.

I don't think there's any denying that some people can take games too far, or that some sentiments aren't healthy.

On the other hand, it's a terrible logical leap to assume that videogames are, definitively, the one making things go wrong. That they're the ones responsible for all sorts of societal ills. I won't say that they aren't responsible for problems in all cases - it's entirely possible for someone to get addicted to videogames, for example - but assuming this applies to everyone is a terrible way to generalise. Assuming that banning videogames will solve the problem is an even bigger logical leap, and it's based on a bad generalisation to boot.

I know you're just trying to help justify the decision, sorta, but as someone said earlier, correlation != causation. I don't think the issue is "impressionable adolescents," I think the issue goes much deeper (upbringing, natural tendencies, local environment, society as a whole, group mentality/peer pressure, "kids will be kids," etc). It may be the case that violent personalities seek violent video games and movies as an outlet, rather than as inspiration. They may already be inclined to acting out in such ways regardless of their chosen entertainment.

Doubt this is true.....unless there is truly a correlation between "bad effects on society" and violent video games(there is a correlation, but its "r" value is less than 0.5) I doubt the German gov. will really ban the violent games, at least not while its economy is still in the water.

Adolescent spree killers have one thing in common that bothers me much more: access to firearms, often through careless/uncaring/nut-job adults.

The majority of spree killers had breast milk as babies.

I'm actually glad you argued for that point. Of course violent games creates more violence.

But the problem is: Violence is entertaining. When you watch movies, read books, play games and such it is in 75% of the cases the violence that is exciting. It is of course terrible to experience pain and even to see people who experience it, but even so people still watch in excitement.

That is pretty much a reason why banning the games is a bad idea. You're against it yourself so you know it is :P just want to make my point clear: If we can't see violence in movies, games, books and such then where will we get it? We will have to make our own violence. That is why banning the violent games will not work as a way to reduce violent behaviour, but on the contrary it will most likely create more. The forbidden is generally exciting.

I didn't say you specifically, now did I?

I too am a parent and I think I do a fine job of raising my son. I don't let him run wild, I have no issues swatting his azz when he'd done wrong, and yet at the same time he's not a mindless, obedient puppy either.

I'm not saying all parents are bad at being parents, but you have to admit that a lot of the issues we have today are because a good majority of them don't know how (or don't want) to be parents. I realize that there are still good parents out there, and those people know who they are. Many of them agree in the same line of thought (especially older parents) as me. I've noticed no one else has raised a ruckus about how I phrased that though....so, feeling guilty about something?

I agree, to a point, that people shouldn't butt in a tell you how to raise your children. In some cases if you just completely aren't doing your job, then yeah some authority should step in....but there is a large difference between disciplining you child vs neglecting or abusing your child. Parents should not be afraid to discipline their children, which is what I essentially said in my previous post. If people did, we wouldn't be having the issues we're having today....with the school shootings, etc.

As I have previously stated, and will expound upon, violence has been around forever. Guns have been around for a looooooooong time, and they used to be easier to get then they are today. However, there is much less discipline today, and we're honestly teaching our children less and less about respect. This is why we have as many issues in today's society as we do. Therefore the blame lies with the parents that aren't stepping up to the plate and doing their jobs.


And it was argued persuasively that eggs were bad for you. High cholesterol and all....then we found out that hey, if you eat the whole damn egg it balances itself out.

It's argued that the sun causes cancer, but its how the human body naturally produces Vitamin D, which is healthier than ingesting it via other means.

The list goes on and on. We've been wrong before, we've blown things out of proportion before. People can spin facts any way they want to make their goal seem more appealing or plausible or to make their argument seem stronger.

Chocolate is a poison, ingest to much of it an you'll kill yourself. However, in moderation it's healthy because of the antioxidants in it.

Alcohol is also a poison, again ingest too much of it and you'll kill yourself. Again, in moderation, it's healthy. Good for the heart and the circulatory system.

Smoking is terrible, yet it's legal, and the ads are extremely impressionable on adolescents, but they are allowed.

Have you seen the affect of magazines like Cosmo and Metropolitan on young girls? Yet this is allowed.

The key here is everything in moderation. Even things that are healthy for you can have an adverse affect if not taken in moderation. Parents have to step in a set limits for their children. They have to teach their children the difference between reality and fantasy and they need to impress upon them how terrible real life violence really is. They need to teach their children about the responsibilities of their actions, and about respect for themselves as well as others. However, many of them aren't and that's where the real issue lies.

Guys, We're talking germany here, one of the only western european countries that apply large-scale censorship on artists/video games and whatnot. Apart from the fact that Germany is a beautiful country, that particular point really sucks about it. Try to discuss WOII with an average (somewhat older) german, and you'll find put that subject is completely taboo.

The german government thinks problems dissappear when they're out of sight, which is rather naive imho.

I didnt read the entire thread, but, plz dont tell me they wanna ban GW? that would be crazy.

Continuing ramblings: That school shooting a while ago got them worked up even more then they already were on the subject. Strong statement that 'spree killers play violent games', spree killing was there before computers were even invented, you gotta base games on SOMETHING rite?

Rather fix the rotten world itself then it's Symptoms, but lol, that would be a REALLY tough job, too tough for Homo Sapiens too handle.

The topic should be more like:

All violent games may be banned in Germany....
or: Germany wants to ban all violent videogames

...but they wont, considering how many hard-core videogamers there are at Germany.

And lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s#Saudi_Arabia