All violent video games to be banned in Germany

This story reminds me of how amazed (understatement) I was when I discovered that France (a country quite strong on its ethics of civil liberties) was going to extend its program of restrictions of electronic communications to a point never seen before (not even the UK where an employer can spy on its employee's email).

Everyone quotes the school shooting, but while these do influence the subconscious of everyone in touch with the news, I'm fairly sure that there are a lot of things behind this German affair that we don't know about. Many legislations start with some stories that are local and do not make the news.

Now about the science behind the link videogame-violence. It's 100% obvious that there is no solid evidence, but there'll never be, because it's a psychological matter arising from the use of modern technology, which is not really studied seriously nowadas (it's more important to "make it happen" rather than understand what's happening). Furthermore, it's not about videogames "causing" problems, but accentuating and "externalising" (revealing a problem that was hidden) them . Science will not help draw the line, it has to be drawn by each country and society, even despite globalisation making content worldwide-relevant.

To Anet's credit, they've created a game that departs from WoW(to name only one!)'s business model of addiction. But I want also to point to something important: we, gamers and game creators, need to open our eyes on this matter. We may be comfortable with our relationship with "virtual violence", but it doesn't mean that it's right. Sometimes, you do not realise how the videogame influences you, and it often does. I remember when I taught the use of computers and the Internet to young people who kewn little about it how they often make the same mistakes and do not realise that they actually made one. If no one tells you, you won't believe it after years of (bad) practice.

This story would best be discussed with Germans, not as a sign that the rest of the world is going to copy them. To go back to my original statement about French electronic laws, and to confirm what Martin said to Regina, politicians are often the reason why these things happen. Some have political interests in making the news (the disgusting BNP in the UK...) and have no interest in helping the kids not being influenced by videogames.

Censorship is often self-inflicted, politicians only carry out in such a case what the people want. Don't know if this is the case in GErmany though. And yeah, they WANT to ban them. In the Netherlands they want to ban smoking in pubs, but the Judge has other ideas, Trias Politica very ftw ^^

Politicians HAVE to make sure wether their legislation is legally possible, if it isn't theyre just yelling stuff to make a statement.

Smoking is different (physical direct damage, sign "smoking kills" on the product itself), but points to an interesting point I forgot to mention: there are physical side-effects of "violent" videogames, but it's not clear if it should warrant any action.

I recently discovered a fascinating piece of scientific work from this blogpost: social networking websites very probably slightly harms the social capabilities of kids using them. This topic was discussed in the House of Lords (higher chamber of UK parliament).

All this points to misunderstandings, both from people not playing games and gamers, because as gamers we're not sympathetic to the idea of videogames influencing us to the point where we're loosing control.

My point is more like: Politician X can yell stuff, but if Judge Y says it's illegal, politician X can't do a thing.

There is no link that I know of between video games and violent behavior. On the other hand, there are links between violent video games/movies/etc, and desensitizing of people. For example...there are things told on the news today (such as murders rapes etc) that would be shocking many years ago. Nowadays most everybody looks at it as standard or even ignores it. We have seen much worse in our entertainment. I suppose its an argument of has society changed and entertainment changed with it or the other way around?

Either way, banning shit is stupid. If you ban video games you are going to have to ban everything, and honestly I'm for not banning much of anything. It pisses me off when governments get involved in the rights of the people...we are actually having similar issues to this in the US with things such as internet gambling. The worst part is the politicians involved almost always do it strictly for political gain and not actually for the good of the people.

X can "fire" Y (this happened in France and in USA with Bush IIRC) and put someone more friendly to his cause. Furthermore Y is influenced by the society he lives in (laws and constitutions have to be interpreted by human beings), which itself is influenced by X's policy.

Societies do not self-regulate, to the extend of going beyond the "law of the strongest". See how China tried (succeeded?) in limiting the number of hours people could play MMOs. When there's a societal problem, politicians HAVE to intervene. Rights and duties go together, for both "sides" (politicians and citizens).

WHAT!!!!!

I hope not...seeing as I'm hoping to go to college in Germany and so help me (Insert Religious Being) I'm still going to be playing GW. Even if I have to go to some underground gaming club to do so.

I grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons which had some of the most violent content. Example: Road Runner dropping anvils on Wiley Coyote's head and so on. I have never in my life done the same to anyone, although the thought might have been enticing. The point is that it is the person's psyche that predicates the effect violent television, movies, books, games, etc has on the actions they take. Games don't kill people. people do.

Good point, but different people have different opinions on the word 'problem'. Besides that, things like these should be scientifically backed and proven. And I don't mean proven by a scientist that gets funded by the government :P.

Wether people get violent from games or not is simply not proven beyond reasonable doubt (hence a 7 page thread of discussion). Governments nowadays want so ***ing much control it isn't funny anymore. Nowadays you have the means to monitor people 24/7 with a satellite and zoom in on their dandruff, so there's myriads of people that want to get busy doing it right away.

New and Cutting edge doesn't make it good, look at the H-bomb for example, that was so cutting edge people regretted ever inventing the damn thing.

Funny, I thought GW guru didn't do politics :P

/completely agree

I remember those cartoons. Bugs Bunny, Tom and Jerry, Thundercats, Transformers, so on and so forth. All full of animated violence, but I'd say 99% of the kids laughed at yet. Like you, no one I have ever known has re-enacted those actions on anyone, and yet today those same cartoons are 'too violent' for our children to watch. So they give them crap like Spongebob Squarepants.....how the heck is that any better?

Like you've said, it's lack of parenting, discipline, in home and in school. Today kids are more influenced by the 'street' or 'internet' and since most of the parents in question remain idle to the problem they would rather the government put an idiotic ban instead so they don't have to look after their own children as they grow up.

Eh ...

I just hope today's youth, once they grow up that's it, will be far more reasonable parents having experienced this all kind of shit todays youth is thrown by.

So, is Germany still a good place to go and work in the games industry?

I think it's a beautiful country, but if the law is going to make things awkward... well I guess I won't be able to work on any FPS :/

They must have a pro-games lobby in Germany surely, so maybe it's nothing to worry about *crosses fingers*

I'd like to work there and check out the festivals and stuff >.<

You're right, but it won't happen, because: 1) government only funds what brings "benefits"; 2) scientists mainly seek what brings them funding; 3) this loop is broken by the societal evaluation of what a "benefit" is, and given how successful the gaming industry is, slowing it down is probably not seen as a "benefit" (not even talking about lobbying). The kind of research we're talking about here is also very difficult to create, because it's about commercial products and company do not want to open their doors too much (industrial espionage, added security risks).

The media has a huge responsibility here, exacerbating the school shootings and other dark stories, but not relaying properly the important issues and discussions around them in society. Gamers also have a responsibility as they sometimes react immaturely, as if someone was taken from them (are you buying a game for the violence? is game creativity that bound to violence?). And last, but not least, the gaming industry has a responsibility. It is said to weight more heavily than Hollywood, with tons of money, it should invest part of this money into making sure that the games are indeed "safe" (while reading about the issue, I discovered a few small scientific studies highlighting how the various ratings didn't cover truthfully the reality of games). But like RMT, the industry will only take action when the problem becomes too "visible".

One point I've been thinking for a long while (almost since I began playing GW) is that Anet is not taking enough credit for the impact of their game on society. GW is not so addictive (one of the the reason why there's so much QQing on Guru, more content please!) and emphasizes the fun behind the game (maybe not for you or many Guru-ers, but probably for a majority of people). GW is inspired by art and a deep story, not the fact that we're slaying monsters, and as such takes a very positive stance on the overall design.

Today's News:
Tomorrow's News:
Real News:

This is the main cause, not video games that are violent. If they feel that it's because of violent video games than they might as well ban the majority of TV shows as well. People that don't understand how the human mind works will immediately jump to something and blame it for recent violence in the community. For Pete's sake the first two video games I played when I was five on the SNES and those were Mortal Combat 2 and Doom.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible for video games to give kids the wrong ideas, but damn, if you think someone is going to get those sort of ideas from a video game they shouldn't be allowed to even know about video games, let alone watch the news or go to school. I feel that this sort of thing will happen in the US eventually as well, considering we already have some grumpy old men trying to get games banned because they'd rather blame a game than actually do something constructive. Violent acts happen, and stupid people blame something other than the ones truly responsible, rather than the parents who are supposedly looking after the child. This isn't news though, people have been trying to get violent games offed since the very beginning. Oh noes! Red pixels! My eyes! Raaaage! RAAAAAGE! Must commit violent acts in real life!

All the hubub about GTA "teaching" someone how to steal a car and kill cops and find a hooker... Well those people are just making excuses, and idiots are falling for it. Postal promotes violent acts? Well yeah, it does, IN THE GAME. I'm not going to decapitate someone in the real world with a shovel and then kick their head down the street like it's a soccer ball.

This just in: 15 yr old boy with family history of abuse and neglect kills parents with crowbar. Half-Life games to be banned.

See how easy it is?

Do we people forget the difference between tv and videogames? Interactivity, which can lead to immersion, which can lead to addiction.

A TV, DVD or book is a piece of work presented like a paint, you watch it thinking about what the author attempted to convey, it's a window into another world so that you get some refreshing experience.

In a game, you walk through this window and endorse the hero's character, you make the story, it becomes (more or less) part of you. Ofc, when you're "grown up" (whatever age that is) you don't have a problem with that unless something in you is going to make the virtual a little bit more real than it should be (it's a subjective line). And worst case scenario, it helps you develop unhealthy habits.

I wonder whether there's been other attempt to tackle videogame violence in Germany, like discussion groups, public ad campaigns, etc.

I was just thinking, if there are any cable TV networks in germany that carry shows like southpark or 24 or anything like that, they should have an all day marathon of those shows.

Have you ever watched a young child totally engrossed in a cartoon? They have had campaigns about regulating violence in children's tv programming for years. There were cases where children watched the 3 Stooges and thought it was ok to hit someone in the head with a hammer and so on. Video games are just a further progression of such media.

Children are highly impressionable. However, parents have a responsibility. If they see a child playing a very violent game, they should think "Hmm, mabye I shouldn't let them play such a sickening game".

And was there any evidence regarding the mental state of those children?

Also note, children may not be aware of the consequences of hitting someone on the head with a hammer - cartoons certainly won't show any potential significant injury. This is I think, a much more relevant point. Gamers know that shooting someone with an assault rifle will kill them. No matter how many violent games I play, I will never pick up an assault rifle and shoot someone without a very good reason.

You have no argument from me, I totally agree.

That's very true, but yet I've got the feeling that we develop a somewhat "healthy" relationship with tv shows due to their social status, which is more acceptable than videogames (it's changing rapidly). But the problem you point to is more general, I bet it wouldn't be considered "violence" but simple a "lack of understanding" (parents have to educate their children). Whereas for videogames, you have to be "in the game" to play it, you can't just walk next to the computer and see the game playing itself. And most of the time the game is designed so that you "feel" that you're the main character of the story/world, whereas tv shows aren't.

I've been watching the videos of Prototype for a while now, I'm very impressed, but I'm a bit annoyed by the kind of message it sends to people. Ofc, anyone with a dose of maturity will stop the identification to the main character at the limit of his "self". But young, impressionable kids (may be adults) will not. While there are quite a lot of horror/action movies which are much more violent than most videogames, they're only bought by a tiny population (we should be talking about Fight Club ). It's different for videogames, where action takes the centre stage and violence is seen as a "visually important" part of the action. If only videogames weren't designed to put the "action" at the core of the game, maybe (I'm not sure, tell me what you think) things would be different.

I think that once games will 'mature' a bit in their own way, the problem will solve by itself on the big part. I have played many games that could be considered an 'art' to say the least, not mindless violence fest. They had their own, very unique story, very good audio and visual experience in terms of locations, characters, general 'mood' following you in the game, it's own style, and a healthy dose of interactivity, to say the least. Of course I can't really imagine making from game such as Street Fighter a work of art, so there will be always different kinds of games. Games at their basis serve entertainment purpose, but it doesn't take long to understand that each game is something ... different. To the point, I think what we need right now is higher level of interactivity with your family/friends in the same room. Well, let's be honest, there is a difference between shutting off in your room and playing an mmo, having the only contact with other people by chat messages and imagined hero avatars and playing with your friends some game on the sofa in your saloon on a split screen. In the latter case you are socialising and honing your teamplay skills, in the former not really (you can't really compare shouting on someone over headset on vent channel to actually talking to him from 2 meters distance). The other thing is that most online games being labelled as addicting, well, their entire economy scheme is based around making you addicted and spending as much money and time in the game as possible, often making game unenjoyable in a competitive environment without grinding your arse for entire day or making use of paid services.

The word game in itself connotates some type of action. I think video games where real lifelike characters are portrayed using violent actions against each other are more apt to be of concern.

I think that they should also ban cars; cars kill people too, and I'm sure a lot more people die from car crashes than kids going crazy from video games and the lack of parenting.

BTW... I really dont see games like WoW or GW turning people into killers...

I don't know about that, the first Ork or Charr I see on the street might be in big trouble

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/the-top-...3554113093/p-4

And I think to myself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtPF9M3nIHs

On slightly related news, Japan just recently decided to ban rape games.

As per june 5th, words such as “training” (調教) or “slave”, among others, are not allowed in the title or packaging.

HCG involving sexual violation cannot exceed 20% of a game’s total HCG count (ie: can’t try to build this up by having lots of everyday life CG events).

Even if it’s below 20%, anything that is promoting a criminal offense is not allowed.

Anything that promotes rape, confinement, stalking, domestic violence, and portrays it in a way that the offender gains something out of it is not allowed.

The controversy about rape games started when a game called Rapelay, which was intended and released 3 years ago for the japanese market only, was sold on the amazon marketplace and on ebay earlier this year.
As a result, Equality Now started a campaign against rape games in May and japanese politicians picked on pretty fast.

And in an emergency meeting on June, 2nd the EOCS, comperable to the american ESRB, decided to ban rape games.

Well, normal porn games are still allowed there.

On the topic of this thread:
Discussions like this flare up in Germany every once in a while, usually driven by backbench politicians during the parliamentary summer break.
It is not a law yet but a suggestion which has to get past the German Bundestag to actually become a law.
As there are national elections in Germany later this year, I am not surprised to see this topic being brought up again.
If they would actually pass that law, it would mean that companies like Crytek would probably have to leave Germany to develop their games - and i am not sure they want to get rid of tax payers

When I grew up, Heavy Metal (and most of the time Ozzy Osbourne) was blamed for any violent act - guess he no longer is a suitable target

He does do a commercial for WoW, his evil continues.

I'm just going to repeat myself here from back on page 2. Please do not discuss politics, it's too volatile and personal. It will be deleted.

As stated earlier, it depends on what your definition of a problem is. I don't see violent video games as a problem. The only people I know who consider them a problem are mothers who watch Dr Phil. Really I don't see half of the things the government gets involved in as problems, ESPECIALLY when they have much bigger problems they should be dealing with.

As for China's MMO law...they also have a law that says you can only have one kid. That doesn't make it right.

Because in comparison to WoW, GW has had almost no impact. In terms of MMO society impact, I'd say Everquest started it and WoW expanded it exponentially.

Agreed.. if all the effort that is put into disalowing violent games be put into other causes maybe some problems whould not exist at this moment.

Might just as well delete the entire thread then, because censorship is a human rights issue related to politics, any way you slice it, but I'll be a good kitteh and zip it. after all this is a games forum indeed ^^.

Ahaha, but here you've come to the crux of the problem.

They had that law because it was very necessary for the infrastructure of the state - it literally could not handle its population churning out another kid per family.

Likewise, if the Chinese believe that mmos are detrimental to the development of their kids (some good studies by the Chinese on this - persuasive data that chinese kids who play mmos do significantly worse in school) they have every right to stop it, according to their laws.

You can say violent video games are a problem, and that you'd never be influenced enough by them to go out and kill someone. This forum is a microscopic percentage of the world that plays video games - doubtless there are many who are adversely influenced by them.

Anyone else remember the Hitman Blood-Money ads? The ones that said "Shockingly Executed", or "Classically Executed", and it showed an electrocuted victim and someone with their throat cut. Hitman's target audience is supposed to look at that and think "that's awesome".

That's not awesome, and it's strange to think so. The puzzle aspect of the hitman game might be cool, the strategy needed to carry out the hit might be fun, but the actual blood splatter isn't supposed to be desirable.

The challenge of a game is supposed to be fun, the exploration aspect, the variety, the graphics, whatever. But you're beginning to enter a gray area when the violence and/or degradation is supposed to generate satisfaction. Rape games? I mean, really? Someone of you might say, "Well, that's just a pocket demographic" - so all that means is that they haven't been socially validated yet. When Doom (the original) was new it was considered odd, and only strange people played it.

Sure, a game like Guild Wars or WoW won't encourage people to "hamstorm" people to death, but games bent on realism like GTA, Hitman, Bully, etc. are successful because they allow people to simulate something they perceive as fun. It's not that the general populace will be incited to murder one another, it's that several isolated individuals might take their ingame aspirations to the real world.

Granted, Germany's motion to ban games is almost certainly a reaction against their school shooting, and time has proven that censorship loses, however long that takes. In the 1930's, the US court found Ulysses to be scandalously obscene, and now it's a hallmark of legendary literature. Yet, it's undeniable that some games (thinking Manhunt 2) encourage behavior and thought that's undeniably strange.

Silly japan. First they censor cocks in hentai that has a LOT more stuff to worry about than seeing a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. Now they're trying to block off games of which they're virtually the sole producer.

My car is parked on my drive so i hope it doesn't drive itself while i go to sleep. It is red like Christine tho

While what you saying about...games effecting the way children think..but only up to a point...there must be a spark that lights that.."Ima take a gun and shoot that mot*******er in the head).. Even the spark alone cannot cause that...Mental instability coupled with personal history or fanatic thinking regarding what ever influence that as well.. games if anythign help them take it out on a virtuall being. This good

Lets take examples of a Video games with violance that are good (in my opinion)

Kung Fu Panda..Violance and yet you are adorable HERO..that saves the village

Halo.. You are a hero saving the world from aliens..NOT A MURDERER

GW,WoW,LoTR,etc etc etc...your a hero once more

Even Modern War Fare and WW2 games protray you as a hero.

Now on the oposite spectrum we have these games like GtA- Your a thug,Mafiosy,Murderer,Gang Member etc NOW these games can cause spark in the weak minded/distressed/closed up people to rage out.. and do those things....

Once again its all about the mental stability of a gamer...NOT GENERALIZATion....

I have been a gamer since 8 years of age...My first Violent game was Project IGI, Folowed by Blade of Darkness... the most bludiest game of all.....I havent killed Any 1..killed couple of pigeons though....but in no way went out to shoot the bully couse he didnt give me back my pen -_-

LMFAO

on a srs note, this is quite stupid. you can't put all the blame on the games...

No offense Inde, but the topic is related to 'violent games to be (possibly) banned in Germany', not 'violent games and their influence on society'. Sure, the latter is pretty much included in the former, because the former is a WIDER AREA of the topic itself. How are we supposed to possibly discuss ANYTHING about this topic without understanding and giving examples of e.g. how politics work in the Germany and/or other countries concerning this issue? Seriously, what's the point? Close the topic already then. I can take the blows from others if you do so, couldn't care less.