An Open Letter to Anet Re: Roleplaying and Character Motivation

Actually, map travel is a weird one. For instance, you have that one introductory quest in Nightfall that introduces it to the player, and then once you get into the L20 content, you have to go through a mission to get wounded Sunspears back to Kamadan and to report back to the Istani Elders... but why can't you all just map travel back to Istan?

Myself, I've considered that particular quest to be of questionable canonicity, and that map travel is simply an abstraction for the benefit of the player - on the whole, by getting there once you've shown that you CAN get there, and map travel after that is a simple matter of retracing your steps. It's there so you can go directly to the fun instead of spending an hour getting your character there - after all, Guild Wars doesn't have the $15/month incentive to slow people down with timesinks.

Under this logic, there are probably times when you really shouldn't be able to map travel freely (map travelling out of Kourna before completing Venta Cemetary, for instance), but I'm thinking ANet didn't want to annoy people by making them potentially have their character be unavailable for some event due to being at an inconvenient point in the storyline.

I have no idea why I never thought of that. Of course, resurrection itself is an issue, in the game. Why can you ressurect, but your allies can't?

That's an easy one.

Some things work only for chosen ones.
We know that not only players are chosen ones (some henchmen and even some other NPCs are chosen ones)
Only chosen ones can be brought back from the mists and be resurrected, only chosen ones can map travel, and so on.

So you're a chosen one, but Master Togo is not? Komir, who becomes more than all of us? I have had the same thought, about being "chosen", though if it were the case, it should have been mentioned in game. Which is part of what I'm talking about.

I do wonder if they'll retain map travel in GW2.

About ressurrection I've always seen it like Greek Mythology:

There is a set destiny for the players to become heroes and therefore, them dying would create chaos in the universe seeing as they didn't fulfill their destiny. Therefore it is up to the gods, who know about this destiny, to make sure that we fulfil it. So they ressurrect us, bless us with divine powers when needed and so on.

Bravo. Genious post and very good point. I think you've pointed out pretty well what put me off in FA and NF in terms of storyline ... do-it-as-fast-as-you-can missions without any sort of consideration, non-existent plot at a times, bonus objectives without any kind of sense or way too ease to make. I still remember some proph missions where doing bonus took as long or twice as long as actual mission, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT.

My point remains, players in a consistent or persistent world, shouldn't have to think up their own excuses for plot issues. If that is the case, and mayhap it is, it's easy enough to write it into the tutorial.

Thanks, glad you liked it. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of long bonses but I don't really mind them either. I think the Factions storyline isn't all that bad, except for having to fight members of your own faction at times. As a roleplayer (and a luxon), I always hate having to kill other luxons. I keep telling myself that it's okay, they'll get ressurected. lol

I'm curious, since I'm Kurzick. When do you have to fight your own faction?

There's a spot in in the northwest corner of Boreas Seabed and there's a Luxon quest (The Halcyon Job) that sends you there to confront the Guild of 1000 Daggers (a group of assassins) and their boss. The peasants in that area are Canthans while the regular guild members are Luxons. Always figured they were considered criminals (specifically, ones preying on the Luxons and making a deal with the Kurzicks). No big deal.

Oh yeah I know that quest. Well they could at least have made the enemies "Outcasts" instead. But as you said: No biggie.

Any time you take any repeatable quest in any area, you'll be fighting your own. Luxons drop down when you take a quest in a Kurzick area. I didn't know at first, and now I refuse to take them.

In the Eternal Grove Mission you're forced to fight Luxons, of course, that are taking, the Forever Trees and conversely, in the Gyala Hatchery Mission, you're forced to fight Kurzicks, even if you are a Kurzick.

These story line plots are okay, but for my mind, could have been improved. If you are allied with a luxon guild, easy enough to check, Menlo, or one of the guys who's part of the story but allied to neither Faction, could have said something like: Look I know these people we're about to face are friends of yours, but just remember what is at stake. If Shiro wins, we're all finished.

The reason this wasn't done, is very simply that when Factions was made, I don't think Anet realized just how many of us DO roleplay. They learned over the years and have said as much. There's a great panel discussion they had at a convention that is somewhere on line.

People do take the lore, the plot, the world of Tyria, VERY seriously. Not all people, not even most, be a significant number, must larger than they first suspected.

Again, I love this game. The only thing I don't love, is when I'm brought out of it. I want to live the world. I've often moved my U map over my radar, and zoomed in close to my character, because I wanted the realism of not having a radar at all. It completely changes the game. Makes it much harder. By the same token, it also allows you walk through an area of the game, as if you were there, seeing only what your character would see. You have to keep turning and looking to know if something is coming up on you.

I'm from a later generation of roleplayers, but I'm still where you are Khyr. I'm brushing 30, but I'm a role-player through and through. Started in high school nearly half my lifetime ago with 2nd Ed D&D and I gotta say paper and dice all the way. Trying to roleplay with a computer...it just seems wrong. While in one respect it's more 'real' then say miniatures or the like, at the same time it's way too limited. It takes are too much to script in everything that a good RPG needs and having a real, live GM/ST/DM sitting in the same room as you to handle stuff on the fly is far superior to running the same quest/mission over and over again...it just cannot compare.

I know that alot of people cannot find good gaming groups, but trying to RP in a virtual world like Guild Wars or WoW is just the wrong way to go about it.

Actually, it's not the wrong way to go about it. It is the wrong way for YOU to go about it, maybe. I'm quite happy with my roleplaying accomplishments in GW.

My wife plays too, she roleplays too and that's all I need. I have a couple of other friends too that used to pen and and paper roleplay with me.

They're still in NYC however and I'm in Tasmania now. We all make the best with the tools available to us.

Khyr, Shiro killed the emporer because he was tricked by the fortune teller, an agent of abaddon. lore ftw

as for the eternal grove, if you were a german soldier in the american wwii forces, you couldn't just say "hey, guys, its cool, im a german, we dont have to fight". simply, the kurz/lux have been fighting for a long time, and you're just some guy who tends to help them out now and then... not worth taking your word on it.

Guild Wars Faction is pretty much an allusion to the play of Macbeth if you think about it.

I know that. My issue is, my guild is allied with the Luxons, therefore I am a Luxon, therefore Menhlo should be a bit more in character and just explain to me that he understands my pain. As a writer, it's a very old trick.

As long as you as the author acknowledge something, it will appear to your readers as if you've thought it through. I hate revealing inside secrets. lol

Lorewise, I dont think you are a luxon. you're ally, but not a true luxon.
Think about what the priests say at the shrines when they turn you down for the blessing.
Its something like "you say youre allied to the luxons, but i know that at heart you're truely a kurzick" (actually im neither but w/e)

While I do see your point, I'd much rather see ANet putting their money to use for other things, like Guild Wars 2. A part of me wants to say that you're getting way too involved in this game, but I won't because I don't want to be a jerk. Truthfully, all of my characters have their own storylines and I go nuts with them. But again, I've always wondered what was up with those rhinkhal monitors in Blacktide Den. What are they? Why are they such a threat? But like I said, I'd rather ANet spent their money working on Guild Wars 2.

I have this problem too. I tried, but it didn't work out.

As I've said from the beginning, if you read my posts, I'm not saying this for Anet to change GW. I'm saying it so they think about GW 2 while they're programming it. I think this is the third time I've said it.

That said, none of these types of things are program intensive at all. The money/time involved in this is comparatively miniscule.

Still, I had no expectation about GW being fixed. I just want the issue raised so that, when GW2 is being coded, they can keep in mind that some players like the game to make sense. It doesn't have to be realistic, but it should be plausible.

If I thought they'd take me up on it, I'd be a story editor for them for free. lol

Regardless of the "lore" if the Guild I'm allied to is a Luxon guild, then I am, in fact, Luxon. It really is that simple.

The game doesn't refer to your Guild's alliance at all, which is what I'm talking about. If you're given a chance to join a Guild, and that Guild is Luxon or Kurzick, you become a vassal of that culture. This can happen even before you set foot in Cantha for the first time.

Ideally, I think you should only be allowed to progress either Luxon or Kurzick title tracks, rather than both. That would make more sense. Why give people guilds with alliances, and then require you to kill members of the same alliance. That is my point.

One more thing..as being too involved in the game, think of fans of football teams. Do they get "involved" in the game? Guild Wars is a hobby for me, and getting involved in a hobby is no big deal. Not like I'm losing sleep over any of this. I'm simply enjoying it.

You ever talk to someone who is into golf? lol

Bad example. Certain football fans actually kill people if their team doesn't win XD

I don't think this is very fair to the game I mean: If you are helping out in Gyala Hatchery, then you are helping luxons whether or not you are kurzick yourself. And you help kurzicks by killing off enemies in kurzick areas even if you're luxon. I mean doesn't it make sense that you might have to fight your own then?

This game has a storyline?

Technically, I think Neo is correct - the assumption is that Canthan characters are, well, Canthan, and that the guild/alliance chooses to ally with whichever side.

Still, we do know that there are Luxon and Kurzick students at the academy (Aeson and Lukas respectively), so that does leave wriggle room for the player to consider their character to actually come from one culture or the other.

I agree with this, actually. The Boreas Seabed opening, well:

You're an outsider helping them. That's all. I picture Eternal Grove or Gyala Hatchery as things you do to win their trust so they'll listen to you when you ask them for help.

It has, at least Prophecies had a full-blown storyline in my opinion.

I'm apparently not making myself clear. I didn't say I should NEVER fight my own. I'm saying that GW should have mentioned something to mitigate it. Show that they thought of it.

There are two things going on here. There's the game storyline, which would be fine, if I didn't have an alliance to a guild independently of that.

I'm not even suggesting the game storyline should be changed. What I'm saying is the characters asking me to do this, could at least acknowledge the sacrifice I'm making. Mehnlo could have said to me at any time, look , I know going against your own people is tough, but there's a lot at stake here. I'm sorry you have to go through this.

This wouldn't change the story line at all, but it would acknowledge by Guild alliance. The game would feel less fragmented.

You've heard over and over again how people complain about the Factions storyline. The kind of thing I'm suggesting, is the kind of thing that helps make storylines more accessible and plausible.

It's not a question of being fair. The real question is, if you have a player who is in a luxon guild, presumably seeing himself AS a Luxon, is it fair to assume he'll be motivated to kill other luxons, or won't feel bad about doing so? If you've a roleplayer, the answer is no. But acknowledging it, in game, it would have made the storyline better, and felt less like a game, and more like a world, which is what roleplayers crave.

Actually this entire thread has strayed off the original topic, so I'd like to reiterate or perhaps clarify. Here are the points I'm attempting to make...

1. I don't expect GW to change at all, but I hope to make some sort of impression for GW2 (though I consider it a long shot at best)

2. It doesn't take much actual work or money to satisfy a roleplayer and those who aren't roleplayers won't care either way, so it's a win/win situation for a company to appease roleplayers. Low cost, no real downside.

3. Roleplaying is an angle all its own, but it's not nearly as uncommon as people think. There are gazillions of pen and paper roleplayers out there, who find most MMOs useless, as you've seen. By pay attention to this sort of detail, you open a huge potential market.

4. This is NOT me picking on GW or complaining. It's pointing out facts that too "me" out of the game. If you're not a roleplayer, it won't matter to you at all. If you are a roleplayer, it may be other things that pulled you out of teh game. The only question here is whether or not you think it's worth having a cohesive story that doesn't kick players out.

5. The whole luxon thing isn't a major point. As a person in a luxon guild I consider myself a luxon. If you are a roleplayer, and you're in a guild, then you're allied to that Faction. They named the game Factions for a reason. They introduced Factions and a way to allie your guild. This has nothing to do with the Factions storyline per se. You can not own factions and still be in a Luxon Guild. But if they are going to give you a guild and make you part of an alliance, wouldn't you, as a roleplayer, feel bad about killing someone allied? Obviously, if you're not a roleplayer, it's a moot point. But for me it wasn't.

All I want for GW 2 is a storyline that caters to both casual players, hard core players AND roleplayers. Catering to a roleplayer shouldn't negatively affect anyone else, shouldn't cost much money at all, and could bring in a whole lot of people who normally stay away from MMOs.

You got your point through mate, no problems there. I just respectfully disagree that's all

I just think that asking a game to take care of the pen and paper roleplayers is a gazillion times harder than you make it. 50% of the PaP RPG'ers don't play MMO because they feel it's a limitation to their own imagination.
30% PaP'ers (including me lol) do play MMO's and the last 20% demand material that would take up 100 GB worth of harddisc space.

It's just very hard to meet the requests of everyone. Of course I completely 100% totally and utterly agree with you that a little fix here and there in the storyline wouldn't hurt anybody but it's impossible to make everybody happy.

I want some of my own imagination to take effect in the storyline of GW while you want the game to give out some extra, useful information. That's just how we differ ^^

It's a bit insulting to assume that because someone wants plausibility in a game, that they don't have an active imagination, or use it constantly in the game. Where the game requires you to do things that require motivation, it should motivate you.

In a shared world experience, there is room for both imagination of the player and motivation by the company.

The other thing is, I've talked to dozens of people over the last couple of years that feel what I'm saying. I wonder how many more are out there.

Making a game makes sense, and motivating a character, in spite of what you say isn't that hard. And motivating your character wouldn't in any way shut down your imagination. So I really don't know exactly what you're disagreeing with.

I'm interested to know where you get your figures. I didn't realize someone had polled the entire pen and paper community on this.

Khyr, what you're not understanding is that your character cannot be a luxon. your char comes from shing jea, or elsewhere, and has to help out the luxons.
Yes, you can become an ally, hero, savior of the luxons, but your character will never be a luxon. You can be allied to the luxons, but your charcter will never in any way be a true luxon.

personally I'd love to choose an option in the char creation screen that said: THIS CHARACTER IS A LUXON. (actually i'd prefer neutral, but itd be a cool feature.

By the way, in the luxon arc, you are never required to kill another luxon. From a lore standpoint, if your guild is luxon, you should probably ally with the luxons. the kurzick side is optional, not required.

If you try to read my last posts I never mentioned yours or any other peoples imagination than my own. You don't have to assume that I'm aiming to insult you.

Ok admitted I don't have the exact polls I've just spoken from my experiences in the community. There probably are such polls out there somewhere though XD

Actually, Prophecies had two.

I'd categorically disagree with this. My character had a history BEFORE he went to Shing Jea. You don't know where he came from, nor do I, cause it's never said. It doesn't claim he was born on Shing Jea. Doesn't mention his parents at all.

I could have gone to Shing Jea to be educated, even though I am a Luxon. My parents could have been Luxons who travelled, as Luxons aren't necessarily nailed down to the floorboards of the Jade Sea.

Where does it say, in the game, that a luxon or kurzick couldn't be educated in Shing Jea. I'm sure many people travel far and wide to be educated there.

What the game implies is that due to a character's potential, they have been sent to study at Shing Jea, nothing more, nothing less.

My experience differs greatly from yours, and yes, I have spoken to many many people about just this thing.

The older generation of roleplayers, those of us in our 40s simply can't find a group of mature players to get together to pen and paper roleplay, and for many of us, it sucks.

As a child of the roleplaying boom, I swore I'd never roleplay in computer game myself. I was wrong. Because eventually, you either have to give it up, or change your approach to it.

You can sucessfully roleplay in a computer game, I know many people who do, who are in my boat. They form their own roleplaying guilds, and they keep it in the family. But for busy people with jobs, and kids and whatnot, who still want to roleplay, these types of games offer the best solution.

And GW, because of it's strong storyline, is probably the best of all the games to roleplay in. It's much harder to do it in something like WoW even though they have "roleplaying" servers.

Sure, I'd love to get a group together, in real life, and roleplay pen and paper. I've simply accepted that will never again happen in my lifetime. Pen and paper really is all but dead. And I mourn that death.

But if what I am saying is true, there is a huge untapped audience out there, this is like me.


This is what you said that I take exception with:

I want some of my own imagination to take effect in the storyline of GW while you want the game to give out some extra, useful information. That's just how we differ ^^

Sure I want more info, doesn't mean I don't use my own imagination as well. I use my imagination with reference to the storyline all the time. So we don't differ that way. You're making an unwarranted assumption.

If the game is portraying something that makes no sense, I don't need to jump through mental hoops to excuse it, is my actual point. There is plenty of room to do that, but in a shared world experience, it helps to have a guild where everyone has the same basic info, and then extropolate from there.

In fact, it says the opposite. One of your co-students at Shing jea is a Luxon (Aeson), another is a Kurzick (Lukas).

In fact, it wasn't too long ago that Tyrians could study at the monastery - that's where Mhenlo's history with the Canthans came from, after all.

I can see how you can mistake in that sentence, but again: I did not say you didn't use your imagination. I just said you like more info. I like to keep it more mysterious myself than you do. We can't disagree on that can we?

Obviously anyone can disagree on anything. But there is a huge difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. Mysterious is something that is meant to be a mystery. Where the Oni come from is mysterious. It's supposed to be.

There is a vast gulf between something mysterious, and something which is an overlooked plot flaw. You can keep arguing this point if you want, it doesn't change the fact that a plot flaw in a book or game should be explained, not ignored.

You need to understand, I'm a professional author. I've worked with publishing companies, some small, some larger. I've worked with numerous publications. I've worked with dozens, if not hundreds of editors. So please give me the credit to make an obvious statement about a plot flaw.

It IS a flaw in plot to allow someone to enter an alliance and then require that person to kill people allied to them, without a word. It is also true that GW is a game, and NOT a book or story. But it has a story line. There is good practice and bad practice.

My need to help make GW the best product it can be is what motivated my post. If you really believe your game will be diminished somehow by asking Anet to explain plot flaws, then I will have to accept that judgment. But don't mistake that fact that if I notice it, dozens of others who don't come to this forum aren't noticing it as well. Look at all the people who wondered about rinkhal monitors, from earlier in the thread.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just to disagree. I'm disagreeing with you because you seem to be disagreeing with what, to an author and editor, is the most reasonable of all comments. Don't give your readers a foothold to disbelieve the story you're trying to give them. By all means add a bit of mystery. But it shouldn't be mysterious at the expense of the plot you've lovingly created. That's just bad form.

or three depending on how you look at it. Warning of spoilers to guildwars chapters




1. Pre-searing

2. Safety for the Ascalonions (ascalon-start of Maguma jungle)

• Heroes joining the shining blade seems to forget about the Ascoloninan people.
• somewhat adressed with the Titan quests

3. Broken trust - Shining blade & Vizir
(maguma-crystal overlook-southern shiverpeak)

• Maguma jungle & shining blade felt underused
• Markus Betrayal felt , underused , Markus Who?Heroes had almost no knowledge or contact with him.

With the end. It felt like the whole ordeal from the Crystal desert and on, wasted the heroes time. Sure the Mursat & White Mantel leaders got killed, but the underlying motivation as to why the heroes followed the Vizier was not resolved.

Celebration in Droknars, despite the unleashed titans. I imagine the Heroes were shamefully blushing at that point, and not mention the upcomming disaster they unleashed. or they were ignorant & blissfully unaware... Titan cleanup.

Eotn, still shows that the White Mantle is in power. and active Mursats.

Factions

The disease and afflicted on shing jea Island was more scarier and threatfull than the one on the mainland. Trusted Allies turning hostile. rather than those fleshed mutants on the mainland.

I was expecting more missions and quests where the task was to save as many civilians as possible, unaware that most of them will fall to the affliction.
and more about the bureaucracy of Keineng

the insights into Shiro past, seemed out of context.

Vizuna square - the deaths at the end really screws the story. granted it introduced the envoys/ Messengers. But it could have been done better.

Cause A , togo died there and shiro would notice that imperial blood had been spilt.
B. The messengers resurrected the heroes and left Togo dead at the end.

considering the nightfall story. The heroes should really hunt down those Envoys, since obviusly they assisted shiro & abbadon.

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and continue the discussion if you don't mind :P If you're an author you should know that in a book not everything can be explained to the reader's first hand. Of course the main plot and a lot of the sidestories HAS to be explained because clearly the reader's can't guess what the writer was thinking.

But there are things that the reader has to think about themselves like "Why did the maincharacter choose to act like that" or "Why is there a >insert wierd creature here< telling the main character who he is and how he acts". These things aren't flaws in a book, movie, game or anything else, but simply means to let the reader's interpret the things like they want to. Don't take this as an insult like you did earlier, because as you said: I'm not disagreeing just to disagree, I'm disagreeing because I don't think you are right about certain things being plot flaws.

Ok I can go along on the Rinkhal Monitor because you are pretty much right about it being one of the things the reader can't guess :P But the factions things really has several reasons in the game both because of the storyline and because of political reasons and such. This is pretty much the "Why did the main character choose to do so" issue.

Btw if you want me to find examples of the "reader must find the answer for themself" cases then I'll gladly do just that, just ask me ^^

Oh btw: Oni are mysterious but some Luxon guy actually has a theory on them being human once who has been corrupted by something :P Can't remember what exactly. It's probably on Wiki XD

It's because of my writing background that I'm aware of what does and doesn't need to be explained and those areas are very seldom in question.

Minor plot points need less explanation but the less plausible something is, the more it needs to be explained.

For example if a guy in a book doesn't know what time it is and he passes an electronics store window in which a tv is playing, it's reasonable that he might know what show is playing, and thus, be able to deduce the time from it. No explanation is needed.

However, if the guy is blind, then he wouldn't see the televisions and you'd have to explain, as the writer, how he figured out the time. This isn't magic, it's common sense.

There are many many areas, routine quests you take and such in Factions, that put your own allies as the enemy. It's not a random happenstance, it's a major plot point and as such, requires an explanation.

Just remember, the whole reason, from a roleplaying game that you're doing something, is because it's important. In Prophecies, it's important to fight the charr, cause they destroyed your homeland. It's important to get to Kryta, because King Adelburn isn't realistic about the charr threat and you've seen what the charr can do first hand.

In the Shiverpeaks, we're motivated to face the stone summit, to get through to kryta, and safety. In Kryta we have to deal with the White Mantle, so they'll let us into LA and we can settle there. The storyline provides the motivation.

In factions, the plague and trying to find out about it propels us to the mainlands and beyond, until we learn that Shiro the Betrayer has returned. The historical scenes are interesting, but technically not really necessary, because though I've seen them, my character hasn't. My character doesn't sit at my computer desk.

Now, if you are in, or have a guild that is allied to the Luxons, you are a Luxon yourself, or you're their ally. But the Factions story line insists you help the Kurzicks, who in theory would be your enemy. In fact, you have to get the Kurzicks to trust you, so you can unite the factions to fight Shiro.

The issue only exists, if you are Luxon, because guild alliance is accountwide. Whatever character I create is part of a Luxon Guild. No way around it. So that means when they get to the point in the story line when they have to kill their own allies, they aren't going to be happy. And I have never been convinced I wanted to. I've never wanted to fight Luxons, because I am one, or at least allied to the Luxons. I should never have to.

But if the game is going to insist that I do have to, that is not a credible point, without it being excused. Remember, in a book or story, the less plausible a point, the more it requires attention from the author. Anything else is just bad writing.

Fiction doesn't have to be realistic, to be successful, but it has to remain plausible, or the reader will simply be turned off. Not every reader mind you, but the ones who get most involved.

There are exceptions to this, such as comedy. You can get away more, if you're not taking yourself seriously. But in anything dramatic, characters need to have internal logic and they need to follow that internal logic or a percentage of readers will be disturbed.

And believe me, as a writer, the last thing you want to do is betray your readership.