How did Heroes kill Guild Wars?

No more Actual FoW/UW/GvG builds that people made themseles
Now GvG parties are pretty much set as the exact same thing
And FoW and UW are now always FoWsc whatever the hell that means
Really took the fun straight out of the game
Heros are alright i guess just the game itself has died...

Used 6 henchmen before nightfall and 6 heroes after. Made no difference to how much I grouped, just how fast I got the job done.

pve
fact: heroes turned guild wars into a single player game
opinion: this is either good or bad depending on what type of gamer you are

pvp
fact: heroes do not belong in pvp
opinion: too bad, your not allowed to have an opinion on this matter

Heroes didn't kill Teamwork, human ego did. If people were more friendly and willing to help, and not shout orders to others and be demanding and go afk, etc., we wouldn't be having this conversation because the problem would resolve itself. People would rather group with friendly, competent people (that's why we have guilds and friends lists) rather than AI minions.

Really, heroes killed Strategy? I would blame the wiki'd builds, and of course Anet for allowing gimmick builds to exist in the first place. A lot of this is due in part to PVE Skills that are overpowered and take a lot of thinking out of the game. Do (prenerf) Ursan, Discord Spam and Cryway teams make the game easier? Yes. But it doesn't make the game fun. If Anet was smart they wouldn't have included overpowered offensive skills in PVE. If people want to sit in front of a screen drooling and mindlessly clicking buttons, they can go watch tv. Keep people thinking and they'll enjoy the game, otherwise they will get bored and go do something else.

Heroes have little to do with Guilds in PVE. If yo have a guild that doesn't help each other out with missions or such, that's a problem with you and your guildmates, not heroes.

The whole point of having henchmen or heroes was that you had the option of going it alone. Removing them forces players to group together, like most MMO games out there. Although that brings up the point that the creators of Guild Wars were decided in that their game was Not an MMO. There were supposed to be differences, one of with was being able to play the game alone if you desired. As for grind, for the most part it is optional. A lot of the grinding done is for access to specific sets of armor (which have no benefit over standard sets), to enhance PVE skills or to gain titles, which if you removed would lead to a lot more bored people in-game who would probably just leave, as many people have.

Nothing lasts. Of course Guild Wars will die, but it will die much more quickly from lack of new content or dated graphics than any addition of heroes. Many people who were here for the beginning of Guild Wars have moved on, but people do that with any game that have been around for a while. And people will not be flocking in to the game as when the new campaigns were sill being released because there are much more new options out there. Regardless on how you feel about Prophesies, the cycle of time has relegated it to the bargain bin. It is an old game and the whole series will soon follow. At the end of the summer, Eye of the North will be two years old, and considering that was a short expansion rather than full campaign, its not surprising to see the numbers in Guild Wars dwindle. If you add to this how tight lipped Anet has been about Guild Wars 2 (three pieces of concept art, really?), the number of active player will continue to fall. Guild wars is slowly dying as one could reasonably expect from a product in its position, but it was most certainly not killed by Heroes.

That was fixed in GWEN: Gwen missions have res shrines and self-ressing NPCs and are blast to PUG.

Q for freaking T.

Its way too easy to rely on henchmen or other players to get pulled through game and get illusion of being 'good'. Pretty much anyone can browse their screenshot folder to get sample how bad they were while thinking they did great.

Shame there is no scoreboard after mission.

But not with anything else, meaning it's still a big problem.

You dont need to play with PUGs if you dont want to, you can always try to find a good guild. My guild's calendar is jam packed with events every day of the week, so excuse me if I cant relate to the "multi-player is dead" or "the game falling apart" chicken little syndrome.

I think those people who feel this way QQ alot about not finding a party, instead of doing something about it, they blame heroes because it is convenient to do so. Instead of lifting a finger to help themselves find an active guild in this game, they QQ about this and that. A good guild is really not that hard to find if you network with other active players in this forum.

Stop dwelling in self-pity, people. Lift your lazy asses and do something about it.

Q: How did Heroes kill Guild Wars?
A: They didn't.

heroes are the best thing in the game, i don't like playing with newbs and ''pros'' for both of them can get you angry

There are no missions at all in GWEN.The dungeons and semi-epic quests have rez shrines because they are explorable areas.

People are stupid. People on the internet are doubly stupid. Heros allow you to bypass that. If people want to argue the whole "Heros made it so you dont have to pug anymore" I can assure you, there are people who use Henchmen & went through PvE before Heros came out...kinda why Anet made heros in the first place.

Regardless, the people complaining about heros killing pugging are the ones who need other people to get through the game...i.e, bad players.

Ignore them.

/flamesuiton

You mean people aren't competent enough to play better than a hero?

QFT.

The ONLY other people I play with are guild m8's who i know personally. If they mess around with only being aloud 1 hero per player I too would leave the game. Heros don't leave half way through a vanquish! if the other player has connection problems at least you still have 7 in your team.

somebody give this guy a medal, for the love of god

I think it needs to also be said that the average player is not exactly a wellspring of intelligence. Not really suggesting that players should be able to come up with the best builds on their own, but the morons of GW can't tell a good build from a bad one. Probably not even equipped to do the basic calculations that allow them to differentiate.

Four years later, we still have monks using orison and healing breeze. Power attack. Power shot. Aura of restoration. Flare. Really? (Remember that thread with that moron complaining about how people dissed his bar, proceeded to share it with us, and got his build raped again, except to a wider audience? yeah.)

I heard you on Ventrilo back in Prophecies.
Lying awake intent at teaming up with you,
If I was noob it didn't stop us coming through.


Oh-a oh


They took the ecto for your second fissure set.
Rewritten farming code and new technology,
and now I understand the nerfs that you can see.


Oh-a oh

I met your minipets

Oh-a oh

What did you tell them?


Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.
Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.
Hero Monks killed the Pick-up Group Star.


Anet came and broke your heart.

Oh-a-a-a oh





(if it wasn't painfully obvious already: to the tune of "Video Killed the Radio Star")

i'm sorry, but saying that the problem of pugs is that players are bad is highly cynical.

why do competitive communities strive? because they have each other to get better. the same basic concept can apply to pve. to a degree, it still does exist--but in a lesser form of wiki/pvx/forums. however, this cannot compare to the amount one can learn by interaction with other people.

when a player makes a mistake in a pug, generally other people will call him out on it. he'll be able to learn from his mistake more effectively. sure you can say that if they're being asses about it, it will just cause people to rage; but this is not a flaw of the pug system, rather a flaw of people just being asses. if someone uses heroes, he has no one but himself to improve to get better. this can definitely work, however much harder to achieve.

The problem isn't in players being bad, it's just that it's really easy to be bad at the game and really hard to gain feedback and/or learn how to get better.

that is completely irrelevant.

if the game is hard, that doesn't prevent people from pugging, that prevents people from playing. period.

i was explaining that a strong community provides feedback and means to get better. you take out pugging, you break down that community.

The underlying assumption to that is, someone from the team would be able to provide good and valid feedback to the failed player(s) who would receive the feedback gladly. Often, some people would just rage quit and the team simply dissolves. No feedback and no lessons learnt.

PvXwiki needs to DIE! You got people from all over copy pasting templates bypassing the need to learn and understand the game. People load skill bars without having the slightest clue why or how it is used. There is a reason why people are bad at the game. There is a reason why certain individuals will never be good at this game. We need to stop handing things to people on a silver platter and instead make them work for it. Make them go through the trouble of knowing and understanding skill sets so in the future they can make their own builds. 90% of the people who say they are "PRO" in-game are a bunch of wannabes who just copied someone else's work, ran the build a couple times to be sure and "poof" they now are self proclaimed professionals. Ya I've seen the type and I'm not impressed. Besides PvXwiki and everything in it is written by regular players like myself. The problem with that is you could literally write anything you wanted in wiki and people will believe you. People get the false impression the best of the best is listed in wiki. If it ain't there it ain't good enough. Again people don't have a clue why or how but just because wiki says so. EPIC FAIL.

Player A or wiki = Here's a skill bar, it works so use it.

Player B = OK, tries build, fails miserably and doesn't know why.

@OP - Heroes did not kill PuGs. Not even close.

P.S. People still use Healing Breeze. I mean seriously. Is it that hard to do simple elementary math to figure out +9 regen (18hp per sec) at the cost of 10e is complete and utter crap? Do people not understand that 18hp per sec heal is pathetic and can't save a fly from the wind? /face palm

Heroes didnt killed GW,they did killed most pugs,which is very diferent.

Me and my guild teams up everynight for events,and heroes allow us more flexibilily when we're lacking people for it or just need it set up fast.
Blamming heroes for killing pugs is convenient,but untrue.
If the average quality of players for pugging were halfway decent,heroes wouldnt be so desirable.

Y'all wanna know what really killed PUGs? It wasn't heroes! Everyone jumped all over the option to use heroes because of all the bad experiences with PUGs and not-so-hot henchmen. Here's a list of several ways the players themselves killed the PUG:

1. Selfishness - Back in the day, people would group up for skill-capping excursions. It didn't take long for selfish jerks to join the PUG, cap their skill, and bail on the rest of hte group.

2. Ego - Having a party leader (or member[s]) who are so high on themselves, they insist that they know the mission inside and out and will be the first to leave the PUG when things go bad because they wouldn't stand to be corrected and their mistake caused the fail.

3. Uncoordination - How many times have you been in a PUG where people head off in different directions? How often do you see in PUGs nobody calling targets and everyone's fighting a different foe? This is NOT a recipie for success.

4. The Pansy - Ohhh! I died (usually because they did something stupid)! This group sucks! I'm outta here! Stupid monks!

5. Leechers - Surprise! This is not a new phenomenon in PvP arenas. It's been going on since Prophecies only days.

6. Got To Go! - Homework, dinner time, bed time, chores, being grounded. Parents / Spouse is making me get off the internet. The list goes on and on. For most of it, the leaver should have known better than to start a mission or quest so close to when it's almost time to go do some RL stuff. EDIT: RL comes first. Take care of your business, then come play. And of course, unexpected things come up - family friends or relatives dropping in, etc. No help for that stuff.

I'm sure there are many other human-caused crap that make PUGGING an un-fun experience. But I think these are a pretty good representation of the reasons WHY people would rather use H/H than go with a PUG

x% chance is better than 0% chance.

I agree with everything except number 6. Shit happens, and frankly anyone who bitches about people leaving for RL stuff need to seriously get out and find a life.


On the topic of hereos though, heroes did not kill Guild wars. frankly, although it's a dead concept, I love the idea of full party of heroes. I hate dealing with the dead weight of henchies who do a half assed job.

Also, on the topic of H/H "making Guild Wars a single player game", most MMO's are a "single player game.", or have the ability to be played that way. Lets be honest here, could you imagine if Guild Wars FORCED you do party with people? Even moreso then the old Prof. days? I'd be a ridiculous nightmare.

Yep, that sucked. Especially during missions.

(Thirsty River flashback ... Ranger boss is down. w/r uses cap signet to get his elite and leaves. Right when missions is 2 minutes from end.)

Or with missions bonuses. It was quite common see someone bail out right after bonus was done. It was great to see that fixed in subsequent campaigns: Bonuses awarded only when mission was completed.

Thanks for missing my point completely. RL always comes first, and it should. And that's what's irritating, having someone join your party when they should KNOW that they've got real life obligations that need tending too. (homework, dinner, chores -those things do NOT fall into the category of "shit happens.")

That's one of the reasons I stopped pugging for a long time.
And I didn't play long stuff with guildies either.
My GF was having some RL problems and I knew there was a possibility I was called to help her out. Usually she would leave and it would go ok for an hour or so, after that there was the risk of panic attacks.
It's half/half in the 'shit happens' category, since I would only be called about 1/4 of the time and most of those times we would just talk by phone and she would be ok for the rest of the evening.
But sometimes I had to get my car and get over to her evening-school asap.

Same with two of my officers. They recently got a baby so one of them has to afk from time to time.
It's ok with a guild team (we know about it), but we rather not play long stuff with randoms for that reason.

I Miss TOPK speedclears ><. As for general pve, it became too easy for me, so I can't be bothered with taking people along. Besidees that, I can fight like the best of them, but my memory fails when it comes to mission objectives, or just simply finding the way. Hell I even get lost in the frigging WILDS lol.

I'm not a good person to PUG with, I don't like leading teams, and I stay clear of other PUGs because they want me to run bad tank/spank bars.

When I feel like meeting others: PvP
When I feel misanthropic: PvE

BZZT WRONG

Try single-playering elite areas or many of the hard mode dungeons. With only 3 heroes and 4 henches. Guilds still go in 7-8 people thanks to PvE skills and the fact, that they only take skilled people instead of a PuG moron,

Hero's made PVE better. Now Me, one or two friends can do ANYTHING in game. We all add our heros and customize them to counter whatever the AI is running, for the mission/vanquish/elite area etc. It's great, because back in the proph only day there wasnt a group forming in every town to do the mission, often times it was just you and a friend plus some very poor henchmen. Hero's are awesome.

QFT.

I wonder why people would complain about multiplayerism being dead unless they belong to really BAD guilds who are not supportive and dont play with them.

The biggest problems with PUGs is not the lack skill, not the lack of good builds, not even the lack knowlege about the game, the biggest problem is their attitude. Leaving the mission after they have capped, going afk, not co-operating, etc. The solution shouldn't be to nerf heroes and force everyone to party these kind of people. It should be educating these people to change their behavior for the better, otherwise no good guild would want them.

If you are a good player, you should be able to find a good guild. Unless you are anti-social, and difficult to get along, then you shouldn't be coming here to QQ about heroes in the first place.

Usually I team up with my other anti-social friend and we clear everything with a customized hero build. But yeh, you need at least 1 extra human.

I'm sure dungeons are doable with H/H, but patience isn't one of my virtues.

Heroes did Not kill the game.

Let me tell you about my night: I was bored and there were no guildies online to play with, so I logged on my monk and went of to do some DTSC. Sure enough, there is a 7/8 party waiting for another 600 so I join and off we go. I get my bonds, pays 100g to get my kurzick buff and all of a sudden I see the loading screen to Eternal again. Someone had forgotten the 100g and re entered without asking anyone if he or she could give/lend some money. Sigh. A 600 leaves/ragequit and we have to wait five minutes to get another one.

Aight, we get back out, everything is fine for about 3 minutes.. except there are two people wanting to go the same path. They start some namecalling and b*tching and the rest of us simply moves on to our own paths to actually save some time. And voila, about five minutes and the two 600s are still at it, one leaves... and a second one leaves.. and a third.. Get the picture?

I still got some faith in the GW PuG, so I move on to ToA to catch a "exp" FoW pug heading down. We got a group, everyone payed for the cons and I scroll us down as decided. Cons gets on... the two terras head off.. and the Main Tank simply run straight in to all the groups surrounding the RoJs and the poor UA, and heads back to us.. Only he doesnt stop to make a nice ball or w/e, he keeps on going and runs straight through the monk group and ofc kills every single one of us. That run didnt get finished either.

Oh, well, stuff like that happens sometimes, right? So, I'm still in the mood to play so I head to Umbral to go VSF farming, got myself in to a group as RoJ and we're waiting for a perma. After a couple of minutes we get one who assures us he dont need any of the alco or sweets freely given, he's "pro". With a sigh of relief we kick start and soon we're face to face with that ugly wall keeping us away from the chest. The perma is good, I mean really good, and shows up on the other side of the wall in no time and has Thommis with him... And hell breaks loose.
As most people know the earth elementalists on the other side of the wall can be a pebble in the HBs shoe if we dont get rid of it fast enough, I simply call out the warden to make everyone aware he's there. And another one calls a Zealot.. another one calls a Demolisher and ofc someone just have to call out Thommis. We didnt kill a single thing since everyone had the need to call.. And we kept dying because of the freaking warden aswell. 17 minutes into the run, the perma leaves, what a surprice. :-)

I logged off and swore never to pug again.

Surreal, this post is full of epic truth lol. Ever tried PUGing Urgoz' Warren? I so desperately wanted that longbow back then lol. Imagine being in a PUG for 3+ hours. The only good team I ever joined there was a couple of guildies that needed a monk.

We rushed through HM in a breeze and it was also fun because they were nice people. I tried some HA infuse build against these nasty hammer wardens and it worked like a charm, ohhh, everything was a match made in heaven.

The other 55 PUGs however......

I DID get the bow though

Nerf shadow form and all that shiznit that is killing this game.
You just use builds and go through the elite areas in 20 mins....
Nerf Shadow form=More challenging game.

Heros did not kill G/W as many have said before me.

PUGS ..geeze

A little e.g Only yesterday I was taking one of my chars throu some of Prof

On one of my accounts....I offer to take 2 guys with me,, remember its the Wilds not far into the game .(take my heros to be quicker to run through mission)

One low level joins and happy for the help...A Paragon Joins up and demands yes demands for me to ping my heros and me...lolz. before we go... Kicked the guy and took a hench, my god its the Wilds easy to do.

So never say heros killed GW ....

Heroes gave Gw a new life. Wonderfull variety of different strategies became available. For me and my companion heroes were something we had hoped desperately ever we started playing Guildwars.

Why?

Because of the all pug-related problems already mentioned in this thread, but also for some new ones... Back in the days pugging was common and almost must. There was plenty of players available for pug-lovers and it created arrogant atmosphere amongst the puggers. Discrimination based on character-class, attribute line or secondary class was common.

For those who dont understand what i refer:

me and my companion played prophecies with 2 different sets of chars.

E/mo + Ra/mo and Me/Ne+Wa/Ne

E/mo+Ra/mo was often ok until the pug told E/mo is earth or water elementalist and Ra/mo is focused on interrupting. back in days you in pug you were supposed to damage, otherwise you are a burden to the team. For ele it was fire or kick out of the team. For ranger it was easier, but who wants to play, when your girl/boyfriend is kicked out?

But that was little. With many pugs earth - ele was ok, especially, when there was a short of monks. The other thing was, the pugs sucked(which is stated in so many posts before this one) and playing them was quite hidious.we used to say to each others: Alesia might be stupid, but at least she is predictable one.

The real thing about pug arrogance came along with....me/ne

When applying to the pugs we had use tactic: warrior goes first and convinces everyone, that me/ne is actually a good character. Sometimes it worked, mostly not. "mesmers dont belong to pve". "no noobs" "you can come, but not mesmer" "could mesmer bring some other char" and my all time favourite "this is difficult mission and you would make us all fail". Yep. That pretty much summarizes it all.

So dear puggers. You told me and my comp since the day one, we werent good enough to you. Message was well-understood and we played with guildies, friends and henchies. Always hoping some day we could have customisable henchies that are always there, even when our guildies and friends arent. And when nightfall came....we did.

Heroes gave us a lot amusement.

SurrealFi, your post is all about farming. Farming which is done with pretty static builds and static tactics, as fast as possible. FoWSC, DTSC, UWSC... it's all the same.

The problem with that is, as soon as something goes not as planned (wipe, someone disconnects, etc.), people get pissed off, seeing their time ticking away, and leave. Because they can either spend half an hour clearing with a 'sub-par' team, or they can zone back to town and get another team, which clears the area twice in 30 minutes.

Are you trying to excuse the people making other peoples game experience a hell?

This is, in fact, a description of One Single Night. Which I happened to want to play like this (Not the fail part tho). I could've told you about the numerious times when someone have logged off in the middle of a dungeon, leeched a mission, screamed at everyone else what to do and leaves when it wont work his way, refused to pay for a run, name callings, ragequits.. But I didnt. :-) Can you understand why? First of all, it would've taken me all night getting everything down. ;-)

It's a gamble everytime you PuG, no matter what it is you're about to do - Farm, Mission, Running: Whatever, and most people are fed up with the risk and move on with heroes, henchies and (guild)mates.

There seems to be a trend that indicates that players do not like to play with other players. For the reasons mentioned by several posters.

Heroes are then not the reason for the decline of PUGS/GW, but just show the shift towards single player + AIs gaming.

ANet even said this, they mentioned "buddy gaming", two friends and their 6 heroes playing together.