Maintainable DPS - Which Profession Is Best?

360??

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

F͊̕҉̡͍̘͍̜̬̲̪u͒͗̍̽ͭ&

F͊̕҉̡͍̘͍̜̬̲̪u͒͗̍̽ͭ&

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post
I actually did a quick test simply using Golden Fox Strike>Wild Strike>Death Blossom, and with those three only I came up with ~125 DPS over 3 seconds.
12char

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Okay, let's also use no secondary, no elite, and only one attribute. And completely unmodded weapons. And no heroes, only henchmen. And any other possible restriction that you'd never have when playing PvE.

EDIT:
@360, I dealt 374 damage in 3 seconds. That's 124 DPS. That's more than an MS>DB's regular DPS. That means that even if you don't make it to Moebius, you're still dealing a lot of damage, and recharge fast enough to not need MS's recharge.

faraaz

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2008

India

Hey Mallyx [icU]

A/

Excuses, excuses. Victory is sweet.

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

farazz please add aura of holy might to your bar kthx

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post
You obviously do not understand dervishes. Yes, the health is a tad bit helpful, but there's only a few short-lived enchantments that you'll be using. RoF is rarely used now, so it's mostly like Patient and Guardian, and Orders if you're bringing it (which is baed, because you should be running Sab/Discord). Vital Boon is a bad skill that does little for the slot. The majority of Dervs never run it. And anyway, a melee's purpose is to provide damage; if a Derv brings Balth or Dwayna avvy, that's a big decrease in damage when you could be bringing Lyssa, WS, or Zealous Vow. If you're running Avvy Balth, I dare you to try and find a build that can come close to MS>DB or Critscythe DPS.
The point about getting health back is that it helps in tanking. ALOT. Especially when when you're getting stripped at the same time. Also, l2r... I never said it Dwayna/Balth?melandru helps DPS... . I said it helps TANKING. Either way, I wouldn't take either, since Grenth is arguably the best option for derv available, atm. (If you're not taking advantage of permavatar as a derv, you're doing something very wrong.)

Quote: So in other words, DS+SY essentially has a 15-25 second downtime every 45 seconds where it can't maintain its normal (and already less than MS>DB) DPS? First of all, the fight should be more or less over by the time FGJ ends. Second of all, if you're that worried about down time, just take AoS.

Quote: CD is a good option, and I don't have troubles fitting it on my bar (considering I use bar-compressing skills like Golden Phoenix Strike). MS>DB takes, like, 4 skills, so it's not THAT hard to fit stuff in. GPS... wow.

Quote: Another thing to mention - just about every warrior build uses Flail, which gives a -33% IMS. While Enraging cancels it, it has a 20s recharge, meaning you can't spam it whenever. Chasing moving foes (very common against a lot of melees) or even simply switching targets is harder with Wars because of this. And I don't know about you, but I know of a lot more areas where enemies moving is a problem than is heavy enchantment removal (you're going to have to have at least 3 enchant removals to get rid of CA if you're smart). Moving foes isn't a problem if you aggro properly. That's the entire idea behind tanking. It's just not a problem if you aren't lazy. Also, if you really cared, you could take brawling headbutt and just knocklock it. (Knockdown foes cannot move FYI.) Enchantment removal's going to be a problem in a LOT of areas no matter how lazy or not lazy you play.

Quote:
MS>DB has 96AL. DS+SY has a mean of 106AL. That's pretty much the same damn amount. They're both very tankable, and are going to give the monks ample time to react. Also, utility means little when you can straight kill just about anything within 5 seconds. And Godmode warrior has less DPS, meaning you can't kill stuff as fast, meaning the monks have to keep stuff up for longer. First of all, 5 seconds a kill is hella slow, dude. What are you even running? Secondly it's not "pretty much the same", 106 AL is 16% less damage than 96 AL. Also, it's 116 AL, not 106.

Also, it's 70 armor, not 96 without enchantments, which is going to happen in tougher areas.

Quote:
I'm arguing against your argument itself, not your word usage. You say yourself that inter-profession comparisons should not be used, and I gave an argument against it. Enchantment usage and slight differences in defense are differences, but do not warrant the two uncomparable. You said that I thought it was valid to compare a sin MS/DB with a sin caster. Don't be coy, that's obviously not what I was arguing.

Edit:
Quote:
GPS>DB>MS is easily going to do as much or more DPS as MS>autoattack>DB>MS>autoattack>DB>MS. If you hit all three, maybe with a second MS after everything's been recharged, you have mutliple back-to-back attack skills with no autoattacks in between. I actually did a quick test simply using Golden Fox Strike>Wild Strike>Death Blossom, and with those three only I came up with ~125 DPS over 3 seconds. So yeah, your point is moot. The point he was making is that with GPS, you're not always going to land MS<50 to recharge it. Shit happens, your target might die pre-maturely, or you might hit it at >50 and kill it on the next DB. That's going to drop your DPS by a LOT.

That's also why lead - offhand > GPS.

TryingToVanquish

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2009

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by faraaz View Post
Hi Guys,

Before I start, I must give a bit of background.

I have never actually made or played a Warrior before this. I was actually experimenting with SY! + TNTF! on my Paragon (not too much tho, he's still in Kourna, and that place is too easy to tell if you are really making a difference or not), and that got me thinking to try the DragonSlash + SY! warrior.

Somewhere along the way, I realised that my Warrior was lvl 16 and still hadn't died a single time (go me! ) so I decided to make him my Survivor character too. At the moment, she just reached r1 Survivor and is now going about doing all the necessary housekeeping to get up to speed (unlocking heroes, getting full AL armor, buying skills, capping key elites etc).

Now...keeping this in mind, I have some questions for you:

1) The damage per second of the DS + SY! warrior is around 30-40, based on my very basic experiments in Isle of the Nameless. Is this correct? Seems a bit..low.

2) Most of the time, I find that my Warrior is up front, holding aggro and putting the beat down on enemies (as any decent Warrior should). Unfortunately, what this means is that sometimes half my party dont get the benefit of SY! Especially the monks who are always hanging back...again, like any decent monk should! In this case..how do good warriors micro manage to get maximum benefit from SY!?

3) The build I have been using is as follows:

[build;OQMSEZKTLOTNnimaxgGWXF5V]

I'm a factions char, so I couldnt choose /P for my secondary (for Enduring Harmony). Ascending for /P and getting Enduring Harmony is my first priority at the moment, but until then..do you think this build is ok? Any recommendations for change, considering I'm a W/Mo, unascended?

4) What are the recommended IAS skills? I know Flail is a contender, but I find that the 33% IMS reduction and adrenaline requirement are annoying...perhaps because I am inexperienced Warrior...I've been experimenting with Flurry. I am aware of using Frenzy + a cancel stance, but to be honest, using Frenzy on a survivor character makes me feel very nervous.

5) What are your recommendations for Armor insignia? I'm going to be purchasing a Sup. Vigor rune, a minor Strength rune, 1 sup. absorption rune and 1 Stonefist Insignia (for the Brawling Headbutt KD). Other than these...what are your recommendations? 20e is a bit low for spamming stances and Flurry but I dont want to resort to Radiant armor (blech). I'm experimenting with a Sword with +5e, +30hp on it (stolen from my monk ) and that's going ok..but otherwise, how are attune runes on warriors?

Wow...that was a huge post. But yeah, I had a lot to get off my chest. All comments appreciated! http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10308778

Just because you have absolutely no skill at using warrior, it doesn't mean the profession is crap. 30 dmg D-slash? It gives the word "noob" a whole new meaning.

Ha ha ha. Seeing as how its already proven that D-slash warrior > DB/MS sin, in before "BuT my critscythesszz pwnnnzzzz u XD omg yayyy"

Protip:
Quote:
2. Stop talking about scythes. Armor-sensitive damage = poo. End of story. Doesn't matter which class is wielding it, they're still mediocre. To make matters worse, AoHM (and avatar forms) coverts your damage type, so you can't share in many of those great intra-team synergies. Quote by Chthon.

I was running a A/D, sure the damage looks nice on MoD but the damage isn't anywhere near it in HM. I lose out on SY!, the most overpowered utility as well. I play with humans, and they appreciate the utility much more so they tell me to run Dagger/SY!.

Keep trying guys.

faraaz

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2008

India

Hey Mallyx [icU]

A/

Look at the date of the post lol...my Warrior is Leg Survivor atm, with r10 most EoTN rep titles...people learn given time ^^

Instead of trolling & making personal attacks, wouldn't you rather try to prove the numbers wrong?

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post
In response to the past posts...

Forgotton200: Stop playing NM and find some real mobs. And if you're barely dealing damage before things die, then why the hell does it matter? Anyway, running regular Sabway I almost never have troubles while using Golden Phoenix>DB>MS before something dies. And again, DS gives you a -33% IMS while using Flail (with a 20s recharge cancel stance), which means since everything's dying so fast you're going to spend most of your time switching targets, not attacking. How's that for efficiency? Why don't you go back to farming Mountain Trolls since that's all you can do effectively?
Almost missed this post in the wall of text that proves nothing.

NM? Where did I say NM? Things die in a second in HM, but you aren't as great as me so you'll never experience this. Also, I don't use Flail, I use candies for a IAS because it saves me a skill slot. I abuse all farming builds, that means I have a perma sin, RoJ monk, CoP mesmer. Don't put me in the same IQ level as yours, naruto fanboy. I'm making as much as cash as you while being superior in general PvE and high-end PvP as a warrior. It's nice we can reroll PvP characters and I'm sure you run warrior as well if you do high-end PvP as a frontline, think again why you're running it. Because:

Warrior > Assassin.
Quote:
Protip:
Quote:
2. Stop talking about scythes. Armor-sensitive damage = poo. End of story. Doesn't matter which class is wielding it, they're still mediocre. To make matters worse, AoHM (and avatar forms) coverts your damage type, so you can't share in many of those great intra-team synergies.
Quote by Chthon.

I was running a A/D, sure the damage looks nice on MoD but the damage isn't anywhere near it in HM. I lose out on SY!, the most overpowered utility as well. I play with humans, and they appreciate the utility much more so they tell me to run Dagger/SY!.

Keep trying guys.
Quote:
You're only worth arguing with for the comedy of it.

As long as Warriors push out more utility with the DPS being better under certain circumstances, they'll be better at both.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Sigh.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
The point about getting health back is that it helps in tanking. ALOT. Especially when when you're getting stripped at the same time. Also, l2r... I never said it Dwayna/Balth?melandru helps DPS... . I said it helps TANKING. Either way, I wouldn't take either, since Grenth is arguably the best option for derv available, atm. (If you're not taking advantage of permavatar as a derv, you're doing something very wrong.)
10-14 health every few seconds is approximately the equivalent of Mending. And you actually think Grenth is the best thing a PvE derv can do? Have ever even heard of Wounding Strike? Avvy Lyssa? Zealous Vow (spamming 3-4s recharge skills with .5 or .75 activations is gud.)? Grenth is essentially a crappy damage buff that takes your elite and requires two skills to maintain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
First of all, the fight should be more or less over by the time FGJ ends. Second of all, if you're that worried about down time, just take AoS.
First, you're suggesting a fourth PvE skill (BH, SY, AScan), which is impossible. Second, this is about maintainable DPS, not how much DPS you can do until your downtime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post GPS... wow.
GPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avvy Grenth

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post Moving foes isn't a problem if you aggro properly. That's the entire idea behind tanking. It's just not a problem if you aren't lazy. Also, if you really cared, you could take brawling headbutt and just knocklock it. (Knockdown foes cannot move FYI.) Enchantment removal's going to be a problem in a LOT of areas no matter how lazy or not lazy you play.
BH reduces your DPS dramatically, considering it does like 50 damage over .75 seconds, which is around 65 DPS at that point (which means that if you're KDlocking something you're only going to be dealing like 75 DPS max). And it's gonna take some hella work (and time) to get stuff to ball up completely, meaning the vast majority of time you'll have to move when you switch targets (caster+melee groups means things are inevitably spread out). And AGAIN, enchantment removal is not a big problem, and only in a few areas do I ever have a problem with it (and that's in an enchantment-light party, btw).

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
First of all, 5 seconds a kill is hella slow, dude. What are you even running? Secondly it's not "pretty much the same", 106 AL is 16% less damage than 96 AL. Also, it's 116 AL, not 106.

Also, it's 70 armor, not 96 without enchantments, which is going to happen in tougher areas. Within 5 seconds means less than 5 seconds. And for an average Sabway group, 3-4 seconds is pretty standard. Also, 16% less damage from armor-affected sources is not going to make much of a difference overall. And it's 106AL, not 116, considering that you have 80 against elemental, for an average of 106 with shield. And if you include armor insigs for Sentinel's, then Sins have 111 armor with Nightstalkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
You said that I thought it was valid to compare a sin MS/DB with a sin caster. Don't be coy, that's obviously not what I was arguing. I didn't say anything about what you thought. I said your argument allowed comparisons between builds that shouldn't be compared, and didn't allow ones that should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
The point he was making is that with GPS, you're not always going to land MS<50 to recharge it. Shit happens, your target might die pre-maturely, or you might hit it at >50 and kill it on the next DB. That's going to drop your DPS by a LOT.

That's also why lead - offhand > GPS. It's up to the player to decide when to use skills and when not to. If something's going to die in 1-2 hits, then there's no point in attacking it anyway; move on to the next target, the heroes/players will finish it and you can get a head start on the next one. Yes, you have to play smart with GPS, and in shitty areas where everything dies too fast, you do need to bring Golden Fox>Golden Fang instead. That doesn't mean GPS is a bad skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
Almost missed this post in the wall of text that proves nothing.

NM? Where did I say NM? Things die in a second in HM, but you aren't as great as me so you'll never experience this. Also, I don't use Flail, I use candies for a IAS because it saves me a skill slot. I abuse all farming builds, that means I have a perma sin, RoJ monk, CoP mesmer. Don't put me in the same IQ level as yours, naruto fanboy. I'm making as much as cash as you while being superior in general PvE and high-end PvP as a warrior. It's nice we can reroll PvP characters and I'm sure you run warrior as well if you do high-end PvP as a frontline, think again why you're running it. Because:

Warrior > Assassin. So if things die in one second in HM, why the hell is there even an argument? If that were the case, anything that could autoattack would work perfectly fine. And rock candies are a pretty terrible argument because very few people are actually willing to use consumables in general PvE. Let's see here... Blah blah blah, farming crap, random insult that I already explained against, some stupid elitism not relative to the topic.. Wait, you're using PvP warriors as an argument for PvE warriors? Wow. First, monsters aren't nearly as smart as humans and thus are much less likely to shut down an assassin, one of their main problems. Second, Assassins are one of the best professions to abuse PvE skills, which obviously aren't available in PvP. If this transfered over, then ele's would replace PvP monks as healers due to ER and rangers would be much more useful than they are now in PvE. Fact is, they're completely seperate, and using arguments from the PvP side for PvE is laughable.

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda View Post

So if things die in one second in HM, why the hell is there even an argument? If that were the case, anything that could autoattack would work perfectly fine. Wrong. All other party member is attacking the called target which results in fast death. Restarting combo on this called target isn't efficient.

And rock candies are a pretty terrible argument because very few people are actually willing to use consumables in general PvE. Wrong, it saves a skill slot, good warriors use it. You're stuck to using the PvE skill + skill slot or you wouldn't have +AL which means you're a fragile target. I use it all the time. I know other warriors who uses it as well.

Let's see here... Blah blah blah, farming crap, random insult that I already explained against, some stupid elitism not relative to the topic.. Wait, you're using PvP warriors as an argument for PvE warriors? Wrong, what I'm saying is, warriors > assassins in everything except farming. Assassins are just weak, period. Smart people plays efficiently, which means they'll have the meta farming profession as alt, which means we lose nothing.

Wow. First, monsters aren't nearly as smart as humans and thus are much less likely to shut down an assassin, one of their main problems. No sh*t sherlock. I played assassins for a long time, I know well that the PvE mobs like to target me to strip enchantments off often. Are you trying to say that you could cast your enchantments, run into a mob and not worry about enchantment stripping? Don't be stupid, it'll get stripped unless you take your time while a warrior is already in pounding the mobs.

Second, Assassins are one of the best professions to abuse PvE skills, which obviously aren't available in PvP. If this transfered over, then ele's would replace PvP monks as healers due to ER and rangers would be much more useful than they are now in PvE. Fact is, they're completely seperate, and using arguments from the PvP side for PvE is laughable. Doesn't change the fact that warrior > assassin. Let me say it again since you don't understand it too well, warrior > assassin in high-end PvP and general PvE. Not on topic for PvP, but I'm merely summarizing the two professions of this game.. Yawn, another pointless wall of text. Don't be full of yourselves assassins, know your place. That's right, below the warriors. You should actually play this game, you'll learn a lot. Waiting here on the next reply to get shut-downed again by great o' me.

Snow Bunny

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

You will never get the Moebius chain off. With all the buffs you throw on in PvE, the mobs will die before you get Death Blossom off.

Jaigoda, you're so wrong on so many accounts it's really quite impossible to rip them all apart.

Faraaz's sin build might win, but no one really cares. It's a silly one-shot gimmick.

The Dragon-Slasher will ultimately prove to be more maintainable and more resilient, and deal comparable if not higher damage to the death blossomer, meaning it's better.


Perfected Shadow

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

Personally as sin in pve, unless it's a priority target, or I'm running Crit Scythe, I do NOT attack the same target as my party. I take down other shit to maximize MS/DB.

Also I think the discussion should only involve skillbars, why bring candies/consumables into it?

Not every place has serious enchant removal.

Everyone seems to be saying stuff dies very fast, so the discussion has moved on to burst as opposed to maintainable dps? In that case Crit Scythe is very strong there (don't forget DW every 3 seconds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
and in a realistic high end PvE situation, a warrior will be doing more damage and more for the team than a sin. More for the team sure, but more damage? Why because sins are fragile and they'll die? In realistic high end, I'm pretty sure you would have 1 or more copies of SY + capable prots/heals and then sins are not so fragile anymore.

It is really hard to compare dps in pve situations without numbers. Which is why I wish there was a combat log, and addons that can parse it to show the numbers (like in WoW :/)

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow View Post
Everyone seems to be saying stuff dies very fast, so the discussion has moved on to burst as opposed to maintainable dps? In that case Crit Scythe is very strong there (don't forget DW every 3 seconds).
Quote:
2. Stop talking about scythes. Armor-sensitive damage = poo. End of story. Doesn't matter which class is wielding it, they're still mediocre. To make matters worse, AoHM (and avatar forms) coverts your damage type, so you can't share in many of those great intra-team synergies.
Quote by Chthon.

I was running a A/D, sure the damage looks nice on MoD but the damage isn't anywhere near it in HM. I lose out on SY!, the most overpowered utility as well. I play with humans, and they appreciate the utility much more so they tell me to run Dagger/SY!.

Keep trying guys.
Quote:
You're only worth arguing with for the comedy of it.

As long as Warriors push out more utility with the DPS being better under certain circumstances, they'll be better at both. Looks like you missed this.

Limit to skillbars? Why would I want to gimp myself? I use candies in general PvE all the time. No reason for me to limit myself and waste a skill slot.

RadaArashi

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

A/

I don't find enchantment removal to be a huge issue, considering the only two areas I've had problems with it are that one Lagoon full of Wind Riders that rape your party with Conjure Phantasm and Cry of Frustration and Bloodstone Caves, with the Incubus doing that one Soulrending Shriek thing.

And second of all yes, GPS-DB-Moebius is quite not a good idea in NM, where its common to not be able to pull Moebius in time cause you and your H/H are going around the mobs like a hot knife through butter, IMO you're better off using an Assassin's Promise build in these cases that lets you take out 1/3 of the group by yourself on at the time. Or use Lead-Off-DB-Moebius if you really want it. GPS-DB-Moebius shines mostly in HM, where you deal armor ignoring damage every 2 seconds and the enemy is more durable so you're able to get to the recharge part in 99% of cases.

Tenebrae

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow View Post
Personally as sin in pve, unless it's a priority target, or I'm running Crit Scythe, I do NOT attack the same target as my party. I take down other shit to maximize MS/DB.

Also I think the discussion should only involve skillbars, why bring candies/consumables into it?
CritScythe Sin is brutal , no doubt about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow View Post
Not every place has serious enchant removal.

Everyone seems to be saying stuff dies very fast, so the discussion has moved on to burst as opposed to maintainable dps? In that case Crit Scythe is very strong there (don't forget DW every 3 seconds).
Yeah but now all sins haters are saying that ench removal prevails 99% of the game. Thats why 55 hp chars farm more than half of the game ....

oh wait ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow View Post
More for the team sure, but more damage? Why because sins are fragile and they'll die? In realistic high end, I'm pretty sure you would have 1 or more copies of SY + capable prots/heals and then sins are not so fragile anymore. Dont pay attention to that , there is more rage than reason on those words. Its like "yeah your football team is better but my boots are cooler than yours" .

Nobody said there's enchantment removal 99% of the game. Half of the game? So the other half, there's enchantment removals.


Quote:
Dont pay attention to that , there is more rage than reason on those words. Its like "yeah your football team is better but my boots are cooler than yours" . You're not trying hard enough.

ITT: Assassins that are biased of their own profession and proceeds to ignore facts.

Forgotton200

Forgotton200

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2008

Mo/

Hey guys, I actually don't play warrior or assassin (primary necro). I was just reading through the threads and typed out what has been said in my own words. lol i troll u, have fun arguing in this thread, I'd like to see which one is actually the best dps'er. I won't be bothering anymore, enjoy the thread.

The Scorpion Knight

The Scorpion Knight

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2009

I would have to say Assassin, even though Warrior is my main. I've played both classes, and Assassins seem to be able to have a better maintainable DPS.

Windf0rce

Windf0rce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Warrior or Assassin, but I'm not sure.

Theoretically the Assassin dishes out the most DPS, it is challenging for a Warrior to keep up with the MS/DB/Crit Agi combo.

In the easier areas of the game and normal mode, I found my Assassin to be killing a bit faster than my Warrior, not needing to retreat or get out of the battle much. Just go in, 'tank' with Critical Agility and kill.

However things seem to change a little in 'higher end PvE' and Hard Mode. With my Assassin I would constantly watch the surroundings to check if I could go in, stay in, or get out. As a Warrior I felt it was easier to simply stay in a mob and dish out some serious hurting (while being able to take a lot more too), while many times my Assassin would need to back off (therefore dealing 0 damage...).

Seems like a matter of preference, with Warrior and Assassin in a pretty close race. I feel more confident as a Warrior though, when it comes to the harder areas - the balance between staying power and high damage certainly means very good maintainable DPS.

Jaigoda

Jaigoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2007

IGN Eat Scythes

Alright, I'm probably stepping out of the discussion because at the moment it's going nowhere and there's too much bias on each side to get a real answer.

Still, I know for a fact that using GPS is not a problem in the vast majority of HM (hell, I even used it in NM most of the time). If things are going to die too soon, you ping the target so henchies continue to attack it, then you switch targets. If it's above 50% when you would normally Moebius and you think it'll die before you can get to it a second time, you just autoattack once. It's not that hard, you just can't cspace everything and expect to get a perfect recharge each time.

Also, even if (less than) half the game has enchantment removal, it's still pretty managable as long as it isn't crazy sh*t where the mobs have about 5 copies of fast-recharging removal (or AoE removal like Rada's example of the Incubus... ugh, I hate those things). If you don't know how to get around enchantment removal, good for you, just stop saying it's that big of a factor.

@Windf0rce, warriors give a false sense of security. If you want to include insignia, Assassins can keep up 111 AL. At max with insignia, warriors have 116 AL, and a 5 armor difference is NOT going to change the course of a fight. Armor, and survivability in general, is really not a problem for either profession.

Nodakim

Nodakim

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2008

Hrvatska

N/Me

Who cares?
Like that DPS test actualy means anything in real PVE.
To be honest both Warriors and Assassins suck in General PVE.
Much.

Picuso

Picuso

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

far far away

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodakim View Post
To be honest both Warriors and Assassins suck in General PVE. Ignorance is Bliss

Perfected Shadow

Perfected Shadow

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Zul'Aman

Umes Uranger U[bot]

Quote:
As long as Warriors push out more utility with the DPS being better under certain circumstances, they'll be better at both. So you're saying that warrior dps is better under certain circumstances thus they are better at dps? /scratchhead

Anyway it's just too hard to compare in game. Really, wtb combat log.

faraaz

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2008

India

Hey Mallyx [icU]

A/

Combat log was provided and summarily ignored by the pro warrior peeps (except Picuso ) because apparently its a "gimmick"...although I fail to see how numbers lie. The problem is Warriors work on a war of attrition basis...they put out Save Yourselves, they KD stuff...they help control the battlefield.

Assassins on the other hand, walk to a mob and demolish it in 1/3rd of the time Warriors would need, removing the need for the "uber utility lol gimmick" mentality. Seriously...there are very few things you cannot beat down with brute force using the crit scythe or scan + death blossom build (the latter of which can bring SY! too btw), where a Warrior would have made a world of difference, and in those situations you adapt, as do all teams designed for areas like Slavers, Vloxen HM etc etc.

However, we have the following to contend with:

Kendel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windf0rce
View Post
I understand that. However the Assassins' extra armor is still conditional, while Warriors have it permanently; no need to be afraid of Enchantment stripping or under constant pressure to attack for Insiginas to work.

Besides, Assassins' highest damage weapons are both 2-handed (Scythe, Dagger), while Warriors' Axe or Sword (both having very high DPS builds) are one-handed and allow a Shield, which translates into another +30 Health and a potential +Armor inscription. If an Assassin tries to match a Warrior's armor with Insignias, it's another bunch of HP lost, giving the Warrior an upper hand of up to 75 Health; which is very significative.

That being said I didn't have much problems with Assassins in Hard More either, they were pretty good too, I just had to be more careful. The point is that Warriors feel more balanced between offense and defense.

Maybe I feel safer on a War because he looks so buff. lol. I'm going with what faraaz said above, your clearly just biased.

Assassins run critical scythe, a 2 handed, because it kicks out so much more damage than the Warrior can its ridiculous. Daggers can kick out an immense amount of damage too.

Oh but the armour is conditional and/or subject to removal, big whoop. A standard Crit Sin will have 3 enchantments, Crit Agi, Crit Defences and Way of the Master. Along with anything else the party casts, Withering Aura makes for a great cover enchantment cast by your MM hero. If the vital enchantments are NOT removed you have 75% block and +25 AL, along with either +15 if you went Nightstalkers or +10 if you went with Blessed, i chose the latter because you can't always be attacking.

But, but, but, a Warrior uses a 1 handed weapon and a shield! Seriously? Is that the best you can come up with? Is it impossible to run Critical Triple Chop? You won't get unless you lower Crit Strikes for a shield but the option is there. And i can guarantee you will still have higher DPS than the warrior version.

Warriors run no defence. They rely 100% on there higher base armour. Who the hell still uses Tactics instead of going 13 Strength 14-16 Weapon skills? Yes they are a bit more 'secure' in there higher armour capacity which is why its generally not ideal to request your Assassin tanks (something that isn't necessary outside of elite areas really). The Sins actually have defence in the form of 75% block. Neither class is balanced between offence and defence, they both spec heavily in offence.

Windf0rce

Windf0rce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendel
View Post
I'm going with what faraaz said above, your clearly just biased.

Assassins run critical scythe, a 2 handed, because it kicks out so much more damage than the Warrior can its ridiculous. Daggers can kick out an immense amount of damage too.

Oh but the armour is conditional and/or subject to removal, big whoop. A standard Crit Sin will have 3 enchantments, Crit Agi, Crit Defences and Way of the Master. Along with anything else the party casts, Withering Aura makes for a great cover enchantment cast by your MM hero. If the vital enchantments are NOT removed you have 75% block and +25 AL, along with either +15 if you went Nightstalkers or +10 if you went with Blessed, i chose the latter because you can't always be attacking.

But, but, but, a Warrior uses a 1 handed weapon and a shield! Seriously? Is that the best you can come up with? Is it impossible to run Critical Triple Chop? You won't get unless you lower Crit Strikes for a shield but the option is there. And i can guarantee you will still have higher DPS than the warrior version.

Warriors run no defence. They rely 100% on there higher base armour. Who the hell still uses Tactics instead of going 13 Strength 14-16 Weapon skills? Yes they are a bit more 'secure' in there higher armour capacity which is why its generally not ideal to request your Assassin tanks (something that isn't necessary outside of elite areas really). The Sins actually have defence in the form of 75% block. Neither class is balanced between offence and defence, they both spec heavily in offence. Wow, someone is getting a little defensive here.

Please note that I never said in any of my previous posts that Warriors had better or worse DPS. I just don't feel it can be accurately measured, it is too situational. I've played both characters and posted out my personal impressions, that's about it - both very good DPS and I simply felt safer/less pressured as a Warrior.

I don't remember having stated my Warrior ran any defense either. The bars I run in PvE (PvP too) are pretty much 100% offensive (except for SY! when needed), it's just that the Warriors' natural armor/health combination will surpass the Assassin even if the Assassin comes up Crit Agility or Insignia bonuses.

My point being, Warriors felt more resilient even running a 100% offensive bar, so they usually felt more laid back and less stressful to play, while dealing very steady DPS, to me anyway.

Last but not least, just as a side note you talk about cover enchantments but you probably forgot that CritAgi comes back on top of all enchants if it is renewed - so you basically cannot reliably cover it. Not that it is a big deal, just wanted to point it out.

TryingToVanquish

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2009

A/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaigoda
View Post
snip Jaigoda, have you every played your assassin in a good party? In a good group, everything dies fast. Which means chaining your 1-2-3-4-3-4-3-4 for a "good dps" isn't realistic. It's like spiteful spirit, if the mob is alive for long, it's doing good damage but in the end, your group just sucks because in a good party, it won't be alive for long. Let's end the Death blossom/Moebius strike here, it's not great.

As for crit scythe, it does huge armor sensitive damage. From wiki, The exact damage of a critical hit is based on a simple formula: The weapon's maximum damage multiplied by the square root of 2 (1.414...). Why are elementalist's damage sub-par in hard mode? 110 dmg SF looks nice, but in HM, that armor sensitive damage is doing 30 damage. "Armor sensitive damage = poo." Same goes for scythe, but they have many nice pve buffs unlike elementalist, which a warrior can be buffed as well. The +dmg from Scythe skills is a joke. Power attack is much better. There's better source of deep wound from the PvE skill, I let the AP/MoP Nec or other casters in my group handle those. Also, damage conversion makes critscythe a bad team synergy. Not to mention you lose +100 AL for the party from SY!. Also, enchantment removal means your dps and AL drops significantly.

Faraaz, you probably know this, but you're contradicting yourself.

Showing the damage by hitting a 60AL Master of Damage (MoD) is pointless. 60AL means your scythe's armor sensitive damage isn't affected, same as how a SF elementalist can do godly damage in normal mode, where AL is much lower than hard mode.

Locust Fury sins > DB/MS, Crit scythe. Locust fury sins is the best maintainable DPS that our profession can provide.

Providing unrealistic example is a bad example. This goes for the Death blossom/Moebius strike spam, which can't be spammed in a good group. This also goes for the crit scythe and its armor sensitive damage, which is mediocre. I'm no fan of warrior, I'm just explaining to you assassins to stop running shit build and use Locust fury for the best maintainable DPS that our profession can provide.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Winforce is spot on. Assassin's defense is conditional and subject to strip. (A side note, whoever said 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds... lol.) A warrior is just more resilient and more consistent.

This thread is basically done.

A warrior has more utils and more consistent defense. An unfettered assassin can dish out more DPS than a warrior could ever hope for.

Let everyone just agree on that.

Kendel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc View Post
Winforce is spot on. Assassin's defense is conditional and subject to strip. (A side note, whoever said 99% of enchantment removal comes in the first 3 seconds... lol.) A warrior is just more resilient and more consistent. Sorry have you never played PvE?

Mob vs Enchantments = ooo enchantments *casts Shatter Enchantment immediately*

That is fact, any caster with enchantment removal in PvE will almost certainly cast it the instant they see an enchantment, not 10 seconds into the fight. Hell if your petrified of enchantment removal on your Crits, cast them AFTER you've agroed.

This thread is about maintainable DPS, not, maintainable DPS while in a massive enchantment removal zone, or maintainable DPS while tanking 2 Warden mobs in Urgoz. Your average fight in HM does not need them to endure massive damage because they blocked they had to block the entire mob. If you wanna get picky, Sin can run Assassins Remedy, therefore while the Warrior is complaining at his monks for not curing him of Blind the Sin is killing things. Or perhaps the Dervish has the highest dps because while the other 2 are complaining about Blurred Vision and other slow hexes, the Dwayna Derv is happily removing them with every attack.

And more to the point... what utils? Since anything from Tactics that actually helps allies has been nerfed into the ground that leaves you with Save Yourselves and ANYONE not using a secondary can run.

TryingToVanquish

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2009

A/W

Edit: Added it here instead http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=75

Bobby2

Bobby2

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2007

Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards

[MaSS]

W/E

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