Build discrimination.

I've noticed people think my "I am Unstoppable" "Watch Yourself" and Soldier's Stance is a tanking build. How come you think that? There's no self protection in Soldier's stance. I simply bring the two shouts because with those I can have constant IAS without any negative side effect. The armor bonus, can not be knocked down and party protection is a side bonus, not main point of my build. And if I put in Asuran Scan I can easily do 80-100 damage a hit AND my hits land 33% faster constantly :P That's really more damage tanking + I won't be a bother to all my monks because I use Primal Rage and take tons of damage :P

To be honest, I can see the point in that build. I probably wouldn't kick it, depending on the rest of that build. I love "Watch Yourself!". Soldier Stance helps pump it out faster, while increasing DPS.

If the rest of the build is bad though...meh. But some Deep Wound + decent attack skills and/or interrupts would be pretty nice. Maybe even Save Yourselves because of the IAS (though that would kind of cancel out WY)

Sure it's enough to prove you don't know how to read. This doesn't say that my builds are better than anyone or anything, except that I have builds that are equal to or better than...

As good as means equal to. Better than, means just that. I don't say here that every single build I make is the greatest thing. I say that my builds are as good as MOST (not all by the way) cookie cutter builds. What you accused me of was...

Toting that your build is the best thing going, that everyone else is running subpar builds, and people are assholes for not accepting your obviously superior build kind of falls into the "arrogant stubbornness" category moreso than the pride category.

Now, to analyze...the best thing going...never said.

Everyone else is running subpar builds...never said.

Assholes (never used that word either), obviously superior builds (nor that)

I am complaining about people running groups who don't know much, who reject my builds, which are AS GOOD OR BETTER (not better for the record), because it's not "the flavor of the week build."

I don't know about you, but I'd say that's relevant to the topic at hand. I'd say it happens often. Or do you think anyone who runs a group somewhere is just that smart?

I have claimed to be competent and occasionally inspired. You take my confidence in my as good or better, as being better...why is that? Maybe you're just insecure. I don't know.

But the quote you gave certainly does not show in any way that I said my build was the best thing out there. Never said it, never would.

Just quoting where you either contradicted your own arguments, or made yourself look like a person who is way too arrogant to be listened to. First you state that your build is equal to, or better than cookie-cutter builds, then later you profusely claim that you don't even know what the cookie-cutter builds are.

And the whole "kick me or shut up" thing is possibly the most arrogant thing I've seen in this thread. Even more so than the people who do kick you or anyone else with a bad build.

Actually, they think it because they read Soldiers Stance and thing Soldiers Defense (because, why would anyone use Soldiers Stance, right).

That makes it a much better (WY helping out party, IAU to deal with enviro effect, IAS)

But it is still wasted elite slot (nonelite IASes are good on warrior) and WY! is hardly comparable to SY!.

Not really kick-worthy in normal mode arborstone, yes.

Asuran scan sucks btw.

Meh, I'd argue that WY is acceptable instead of SY.

Only because maintaining SY requires a pretty dedicated bar, which is too much "forcing" people to play a certain build. WY, while notably weaker, allows a much more diverse build, while still being able to keep up the global armor boost.

It's not really like a case of someone using a clearly inferior skill that is hotswappable for another. SY requires a lot more changing to be useful.

You don't know what are you talking about.

I do.

it sucks.

5 second recharge? I guess you take your time killing your monsters :P

-.-

Cast before engage -> kill -> Go to next target -> Rinse and repeat.

Asura Scan is one of the most overpowered PvE Skills for Melee players.

Let's take it from the top. I did say I don't reference sites that are build sites...PVX Wiki etc. I didn't say I don't talk builds with friends and guildies and I certainly never said people haven't pinged me builds they want me to use. Thus there is no inherent contradiction in not visiting those sites and knowing what a cookie cutter build is. Where did I claim I don't know what a cookie cutter is, and where is it said you have to visit specific sites to find out about them?

The kick more or shut up thing WAS actually said. However, the reason it was said, and probably why it came off so arrogantly, is what the guy who I said it to was saying to ME at the time. I respond to arrogance with annoyance and impatience. But prior to that point in the conversation...other things had been said that would probably annoy anyone. I'm sure you like judging me based on a few posts on a list when my dander is up. Good for you. Bad way to judge people.

Did you miss the part where I said I'm like an idiot savant who's good with builds. Or that I'm a pretty good player, who is occasionally inspired?

Picking selective words out of a post to prove your point is not how research should be done. Take ALL my words.

Sure, I did say what I said I said, to a guy who was giving me a really really hard time. I'm sure that's never happened to you, but it sure as hell happened to me.

Let's review the facts.

1. Though I don't frequent sites (I have occassionally gone and looked at a specific build on the advice of a guildie, but don't feel comfortable using them), I do know something about cookie cutter builds, because people in PUGS sometimes insist on them and ping them to you. Hope that makes sense.

2. I see myself as an average to above average player (as I said before, who is occassionally inspired), but I love, enjoy and pride myself on my builds. They are as good as or better than MOST of the cookie cutter builds that I've seen. Not all. Most. As I've said. Repeatedly now. I haven't seen EVERY cookie cutter build, but of the ones I've seen, my builds are as good...or better.

3. I'm actually probably coming across more arrogant in this thread than you'd find me in the game, because I'm talking about something I've run into on a number of occasions that annoys/upsets me. Surely when you're angry, you're not going to sound like you normally are.

4. I can see where you'd think I contradicted myself, but in reality, all I've done is respond to what other people said, without trying to justify myself, until people have ventured into the personal.

I've been accused of saying cookie cutter builds were sub par. I didn't say it. Iv'e been accused of saying my builds are better than anyone. I didn't say that. I've been accused of being arrogant, and the only "real" evidence of that is something from an early quote in the post (ignoring all my later posts), which did in fact quote something from an entire conversation I had. Paraphrased really, since I didn't take minutes at that time. I was responding to someone who was giving me a hard time, about a build that was perfectly fine, but he didn't want to hear that. I've subsequently used it with quite a few other people who DID find it perfectly fine.

The bottom line is, you're judging me, on a few posts, in a forum that is fairly emotional, based on experienced that you probably have had yourself.

I've stopped pugging because everyone acts like an expert, whether or not they are. Some of those people are surely experts and some aren't. Some know more than me, and some don't. But I've been treated fairly badly because I refuse to use a cookie cutter build by PUGs. That, my friend, is a fact. That annoys me. Hence my ire (and probably seeming arrogance).

Yet, I ask, would a truly arrogant person compare himself to an idiot savant, or say he's an average player who's occassoinally inspired?

The facts don't really all add up, when you look at EVERYTHING I've said.

No, you mean

"cast before engage" -> kill -> next target dies before asuran scan recharges -> next target dies before asuran scan recharges -> all the other targets around you are nearly dead and therefore asuran scan is useless

if asuran scan was +71% damage buff on yourself and not a spell you cast on an enemy, I'd say it was good.

as it is now, it sucks.

Play on Hard Mode. Use it against bosses and level 28 enemies. Kthxbye.

According to you, every single spell/skill that has more than 5 seconds recharge is useless.

As for OP - you want to play with a group, run what they want. You want to play what you want, play with heroes and henches.

That's why it's a team. If one member of the team is hurting it, then reject that member.

I am talking about hardmode. lols
Do you know what a straw man is? Because you sure know how to set one up!

Yeah SY is a good skill, but it doesn't affect yourself so it won't work with Soldiers defense unless another party member brings it. Can still bring it though just for the extra party defense :P

Video of you killing stuff the way you present it npkc?

I'll say this. After 40 months of playing my own builds with a little research here and there, working my ass off for very little gold/items and beating games through sheer determination, I am more than willing to use gimmicky, cookie cutter, cheesy pie builds if it makes me money and allows me to FINALLY get the armor/titles/vaniqs I want done.

Its for this very reason that I am going to start building my monk, necro and sin. So I can exploit cheesy ass builds that make the game horribly easy. Its about time I got to experience that!

Axe Warrior for 40 months. Heroes for about half the time. (?) yeah, this game hasn't been as easy for me as all you pro-researching "1337" gamers. Its my turn, damn it!

Now I have to find out what the nerfstick affected and what I should avoid wasting time building towards. (3 months to get a necro "solo uw/fow" ready just to find out I can't even use it for that anymore would suck big saggy hairy ones.) I'v earned a break. lol!

I empathize with you on the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is how most people in the game are. They only want cookie cutter wiki builds because they have no sense of creativity themselves. They have no appreciation for people that can make and use other builds effectively and yes, it is very viable to create something not on wiki and have it work really well. At the same time, you could try a build from wiki and suck really badly at it because it doesn't fit 'your play style.' Everyone is different, and therefore enjoy different things, yet no one seems to keep this in mind. So yeah, I'm sorry you've had to deal with azzholes like that.

I learned very early on in my playing that grouping with people usually wasn't worth the time or the migraine. Although, I still do it occasionally for a fun change of pace. Besides, you have to dig through the 98% of terrible people to find that 2% of people that you really enjoy spending time with.

OP, this unarguably gets better results:

Dragon Slash, Brawling Headbutt, For Great Justice, Enduring Harmony, Flail.

If working on Drunkard, you can use Drunken Master for Flail and skip the movement penalty/need for a cancel stance.

This leaves three free skill slots and permits more or less permanent Save Yourselves maintenance for the entire party with one of those slots. Assuming you have the energy to maintain it (dubious with or without a zealous weapon), you can drop your Asuran Scan in there and do far more damage than your bar was doing.

This is why people yell at you. You're sacrificing party survivability and damage for originality. This means you're not contributing fully to the team. So you get cut from the team.

This:
And This:
The game has been out for 4 years and there are a limited number of skills and possible combinations.
I make my own builds, and after wandering over to PvX wikia I've discovered my best working builds for numerous classes are on there, sometimes with a few skills switched around.
Nobody should be calling people names. But when you get better and better at the game, and start putting together builds that work well for the class you have picked, you will find those builds mostly already exist, especially for heavily played classes like warriors. That's not to say other builds won't work, they just will not work as well in most areas.
The real opportunities for innovation with a game this old only comes after skill updates, IMHO.

That's a valid point. I just like to do things myself. Probably a generational thing, I think. It doesn't matter if other people have done it, it matters what I do. As long as I'm enjoying myself creating the builds (which I am), that's what really matters.

Though I really do like it when skills change and I have to change builds, because it gives me an excuse to play with builds that work really well lol.

I used to use Lingering Curse sometimes, in a curse necro build but now that they've raised it to 15e, I'm probably going to look elsewhere.

What do you mean "the old days"? Have you played a mesmer recently? You join and half the time you get asked to run a fire nuker.

No, you suck. Stupid scrub. It lets my EVAs KD.

A lot of this comes with the assumption that the existing party comprises of excellent players with great builds and you are the unknown who must prove yourself to them.
Fair enough they were there first but if they want something specific that's going to fit in with their team then they must have an idea as to what they need.

So why not ask for it and save everyone's time if you want just an extra team mate then be prepared to take what you get.
If you want a specific class then take them but if you want a particular build then ask for it at least then all the prospective people you get should be capable of running that build.

I have as little time to wast as anyone else and if I am willing to take a chance on you then give me the same courtesy, ask by all means but be polite about it.
For all I know they may have bought the game last week and know less than I.

^^Quoted for truth^^

Same goes for 'testing' a build in RA. There are places for 1v1 battles, there are guild battle scrimmages, there's over a hundred PVE locations where you can encounter every type of foe and not waste someone else's time.

Here's the thing with this whole thread.

Build experimentation can be an excellent thing. It is due to build experimentation that we have the builds we do today. I am all for and encourage people to have an idea of what they want to do and how they want to do it. Many very creative people have played this game and came up with some builds that synergize very well together and accomplish everything that is called for in the build. Many of the most popular builds we have today in both PvE and PvP have come from build experimentation because of nerfs/buffs/new ideas/countering heavily used builds.

The fact that if you are wanting to experiment and run your own bars, that's fine. It is on your time and you're free to do whatever the hell you want to on your own time. Sabway, Discordway, etc. have all been discovered by players experimenting with builds on their own time which helped the community and players as a whole.

What you do need to realize is that it was solely their own time, and not the time of others. When you agree to join a pug or guest group, than you should have the courtesy to not experiment and not adjust as you see fit to use others time in a manner that they do not see fit. You are not the only one in that group. If the common consensus of that group is that you run what is considered a "Cookie Cutter" or "Meta" build, than that's what you should have the decency to run.

The "Cookie cutter" or "Meta" builds we have now are there for a reason. Most of the build experimentation has already been done, countless times I might add. The builds we currently have and are accepted as "meta" builds have all been adapted and updated to the most current variant that accomplishes a goal for the team. Taking one piece of the team out and replacing it with a less effective piece only hinders the team and creates unnecessary tension in that team. Just because you want to be unique, or a liar if you are one to ping one build and use another, doesn't mean that you automatically know whats best for the other players involved in the team of people that you are joining. If you want to be unique and run whatever you want, make your own groups or play with friends, but at least have the courtesy to run the bar asked of you if it is whats going to benefit the team the most. By running whatever you want too or joining a team and having absolutely no intention or changing your bar or being flexable to the teams needs, than you are just as selfish as the players who are being rude/arrogant/ignorant that you are complaining about in the first place.

This is why PUGs suck, man. Stay with H/H and enjoy yourself. Let the pugs play the same wiki builds until the servers go dark.

For the record, I'm not crazy about the build concept in the OP, but I did find it intriguing, and definitely +1 for being original.

Oh man this thread has become epic since i last looked. Seriously Khyr has some brilliant(ly idiotic) posts.

People who actually think the excuse "zomg if everyone gets hold of my build it'll get nerfed so i'm not pinging" is a valid excuse rank below your average Wammo in terms of intelligence. I could quite easily watch what skills your using during the area and find out what this 'epic' build is. But since you don't want to ping i'll go with its because you secretely know your build sucks and i'll kick you.

You do NOT experiment with bizarre builds in HM Pugs. You also then don't get all uppity when someone tells you to change to something he knows works.

If you ping something and i can't see the logic in it, or more importantly, why your taking said skill over something else, and better yet, you can't give me a good reason, you change or leave. I mean seriously, Soldier's Stance? Not only that but your using Watch Yourself AND I Am Unstoppable to make it usable? Give me 1 good reason for wasting your elite and 2 more slots on that instead of using Flail? Something that doesn't involve talking out your arse about 'cookie cutter' skills. Flail is a staple skill on the majority of PvE War builds.

Etc

I don't need to play with pugs much, though I have, just for the "coughs" experience of doing so. I wanted to see what it was about. It was about a bunch of whiny little kids for the most part.

To be fair, I did pick up a few good pugs along the way. By percentage they were pretty few.

NOWHERE did I say I never pinged a build to a pug. I don't share them on lists, because I choose not to. Apparently that offends people. Obviously, since I had an argument with people about the build I was using (remember that story) I must have pinged a build at some point. I even said I was asked to change skills, if you recall.

The only thing that is idiotic here, is the mudslinging. I won't be returning to the forums because, though there are some nice and intelligent people here, half of you only look to find fault. You're the REASON I don't want to pug and fortunately, I don't NEED to pug.

I don't really mind if you think my posts are idiotic. It's clear you have an opinion, and that's fine.

The fact that you disagree with me, and venture into the personal and the offensive, shows your true caliber.

I won't be posting again. Tata.

Again, it doesn't offend people.

It makes you look an arrogant moron.

I experiment a fair bit aswell but when i PuG i do try to stick to pretty tried and tested variants to builds I know are effective and useful to a party. When you pug you have to consider that you really dont want to waste peoples time by running something random which can result in just another failure pug.

In saying that however , it is better to give people advice about a built and suggest improvements rather than OMFGNUBCAKZORKICK them. People may be very good at certain classes and tryin to learn another and just need that little bit of knowledge to give them a decent insight into the class.

in my case i know I am pretty bad at warrior but i do enjoy playing it so I always take any advice thats offered (i can theorycraft it a shitload better now but still play like i have at least 7 thumbs)

Also , Ive seen many people claim to be savant genius buildwarsers and then posted an echo mending tank build. Honestly, dont claim something unless you want to post some builds

That's what I do, and the reason I keep being the last one dying when I have bad luck with pugs... and sometimes the only one not dying.


I experiment when I'm with H/H. And use what works for me when joining PUGS, and ask other people's builds to modify mine depending on what they have and what I expect in the areas we are going to face.

I can't imagine just getting a build from a site or given by a player and using that without any further considerations.

I heard RA was serious business confirm/deny?

There is a logic to the builds people use in order to be successful. Ofcourse anyone can just throw skills together and might be successful but that really isn't how Guild Wars was meant to be played.

Goddamnit, the Mending/Dolyak Signet Warrior is a good build, k?

People want to clear things quickly without the burden of a bad player or a less efficient player. PUGs don't know if you're good or bad, and the general assumption is that you're not good. Or at least, it's the safe assumption.

Of course, there's a pretty big difference between 'Hey, I don't think that build works for this area, could you change it?' and '...OMG NOOB.' I've generally found that when you ask what other people are running and say you'll try to sync, people are a) more willing to ping; b) more likely to accept your build. Of course, I could just have been lucky.

you know, mending do sucks :P

Since when?

For as long as I have played RPG's (starting way back to the good ole pencil and paper days), RPG's have been about crafting your own unique Role-Playing experience and characters. In fact, RPGs Traditionally have been about creating as unique a character as you want.

Being fast and efficient is all about farming and speedclearing - it has nothing to do with the RPG genre.

Hanok Odbrook

This!
Bingo!
Thumbs up!
Truly RPG!

RPG != CORPG (or MMORPG)

With emphasis on the first 2 (or 3) letters.