If you want to play a non-min/maxed character in GW, either for roleplaying reasons or just for fun, you really do need to either go it alone or join a guild with like-minded individuals, or learn to put up with the abuse. Like it or not the majority of players are min/maxers who want to get the job done in the fastest, most efficient way possible and will not tolerate "sub-par" builds as using them means the job gets done slower or not done at all.
My problem with build discrimination isn't that it happens, it's the way people deal with it when they see a sub-par build pinged. A simple "sry not what I'm looking for" before kicking someone if you can't be bothered to help them improve their build is much better than "lol noob", or "why do you have X skill?" if they've got something like mending on the bar so you can find out what they were trying to achieve and suggest a better skill for the purpose.
Random anecdote of the day, for my fellow build discriminators: I was in the same pug party as a wammo in Dunes of Despair the other day and my heart sank when I saw him using mending in the mission. Much to my surprise he did a damn good job of tanking and that was one of the best runs of the evening. Sometimes it's true that it's the player and not the build that counts.
Build discrimination.
Smarty
DrHobo
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
RPG != CORPG (or MMORPG)
With emphasis on the first 2 (or 3) letters. |
Another thing: Random Arena is called RANDOM for a reason. If you want all your party members to have "flawless" builds, play TA, GvG, HA, whatever. Or play PvE with guild mates etc.
kousei
Honestly there are A LOT of builds that work extremely well outside of the "accepted meta". There just isn't enough people in GW's willing to let people play them anymore... Everyone's turned into build of the week freaks... If it's not on PvX, it's not acceptable anymore.
Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did...
Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did...
Sword Hammer Axe
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Originally Posted by kousei
Honestly there are A LOT of builds that work extremely well outside of the "accepted meta". There just isn't enough people in GW's willing to let people play them anymore... Everyone's turned into build of the week freaks... If it's not on PvX, it's not acceptable anymore.
Heroes didn't kill GW pug'n... "accepted meta only" attitudes did... |
Buster
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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats
Goddamnit, the Mending/Dolyak Signet Warrior is a good build, k?
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Gun Pierson
wiki explenation for the word 'team':
A team comprises a group of people or animals linked in a common purpose. Teams are especially appropriate for conducting tasks that are high in complexity and have many interdependent subtasks.
A group in itself does not necessarily constitute a team. Teams normally have members with complementary skills and generate synergy through a coordinated effort which allows each member to maximize his or her strengths and minimize his or her weaknesses.
The OP looks like a group player, but he's not a team player. If such a player ends up in a synergy team, they will kick him if he refuses to adjust to the team. It's common sense. Luckily we have heroes and henchies in GW so you can create your own group. You can even form your own guild with group players or team players.
You can't expect a team to adjust to you, that's selfish behaviour. They have a plan and want to execute it. If you want to be part of that plan is totally up to you, but it requires some flexibility. Both the team player and group player is here to have a fun gaming experience so I find the 'it's just a game' argument pretty weak.
A team comprises a group of people or animals linked in a common purpose. Teams are especially appropriate for conducting tasks that are high in complexity and have many interdependent subtasks.
A group in itself does not necessarily constitute a team. Teams normally have members with complementary skills and generate synergy through a coordinated effort which allows each member to maximize his or her strengths and minimize his or her weaknesses.
The OP looks like a group player, but he's not a team player. If such a player ends up in a synergy team, they will kick him if he refuses to adjust to the team. It's common sense. Luckily we have heroes and henchies in GW so you can create your own group. You can even form your own guild with group players or team players.
You can't expect a team to adjust to you, that's selfish behaviour. They have a plan and want to execute it. If you want to be part of that plan is totally up to you, but it requires some flexibility. Both the team player and group player is here to have a fun gaming experience so I find the 'it's just a game' argument pretty weak.
Kendel
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
That's what I do, and the reason I keep being the last one dying when I have bad luck with pugs... and sometimes the only one not dying.
I experiment when I'm with H/H. And use what works for me when joining PUGS, and ask other people's builds to modify mine depending on what they have and what I expect in the areas we are going to face. I can't imagine just getting a build from a site or given by a player and using that without any further considerations. |
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe
And yet another thumb up <3
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This is the post you should be giving a thumbs up to:
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Originally Posted by Yichi
Here's the thing with this whole thread.
Build experimentation can be an excellent thing. It is due to build experimentation that we have the builds we do today. I am all for and encourage people to have an idea of what they want to do and how they want to do it. Many very creative people have played this game and came up with some builds that synergize very well together and accomplish everything that is called for in the build. Many of the most popular builds we have today in both PvE and PvP have come from build experimentation because of nerfs/buffs/new ideas/countering heavily used builds. The fact that if you are wanting to experiment and run your own bars, that's fine. It is on your time and you're free to do whatever the hell you want to on your own time. Sabway, Discordway, etc. have all been discovered by players experimenting with builds on their own time which helped the community and players as a whole. What you do need to realize is that it was solely their own time, and not the time of others. When you agree to join a pug or guest group, than you should have the courtesy to not experiment and not adjust as you see fit to use others time in a manner that they do not see fit. You are not the only one in that group. If the common consensus of that group is that you run what is considered a "Cookie Cutter" or "Meta" build, than that's what you should have the decency to run. The "Cookie cutter" or "Meta" builds we have now are there for a reason. Most of the build experimentation has already been done, countless times I might add. The builds we currently have and are accepted as "meta" builds have all been adapted and updated to the most current variant that accomplishes a goal for the team. Taking one piece of the team out and replacing it with a less effective piece only hinders the team and creates unnecessary tension in that team. Just because you want to be unique, or a liar if you are one to ping one build and use another, doesn't mean that you automatically know whats best for the other players involved in the team of people that you are joining. If you want to be unique and run whatever you want, make your own groups or play with friends, but at least have the courtesy to run the bar asked of you if it is whats going to benefit the team the most. By running whatever you want too or joining a team and having absolutely no intention or changing your bar or being flexible to the teams needs, than you are just as selfish as the players who are being rude/arrogant/ignorant that you are complaining about in the first place. |
Yea people should be a bit nicer to you when you ping your dumb build to them, but by no means should they automatically let you run it. By saying that they should let you use whatever build you want, you are showing a worse sense of sportsmanship than they are. It is not all about you when you play with other players. You do what the team wants or you play alone. Test your little builds on your own time. Don't waste the time of others.
Hell you even said in your post you joined their group and just for laughs wanted to run a dumb build. When you play with complete strangers, you don't have the right to do things just for laughs. That would be like saying, I'm going to go solo everything this way while you guys go that way because I think it will be funny. You do what the team wants and you put your best effort forward to help them succeed. People don't want to deal with your childish antics because you want to have fun at their expense. If you wanna goof off, do it on your own time.
Alleji
OP: Yes, you're bad.
Sword Hammer Axe
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Originally Posted by Still Number One
You have a bad habit of ignoring those opposed to your opinion and only thinking people who are on your side are correct don't you?
This is the post you should be giving a thumbs up to: You really are just showing how selfish you truly are by making a thread to complain about something you dislike, and when someone gives you a perfect reason why you have absolutely no right to be complaining about it, you completely ignore it. Yea people should be a bit nicer to you when you ping your dumb build to them, but by no means should they automatically let you run it. By saying that they should let you use whatever build you want, you are showing a worse sense of sportsmanship than they are. It is not all about you when you play with other players. You do what the team wants or you play alone. Test your little builds on your own time. Don't waste the time of others. Hell you even said in your post you joined their group and just for laughs wanted to run a dumb build. When you play with complete strangers, you don't have the right to do things just for laughs. That would be like saying, I'm going to go solo everything this way while you guys go that way because I think it will be funny. You do what the team wants and you put your best effort forward to help them succeed. People don't want to deal with your childish antics because you want to have fun at their expense. If you wanna goof off, do it on your own time. |
2: When did I ever say that people should automatically let me run my "dumb build"? I actually said somewhere that I like constructive criticism and that I welcome suggestions for changing my build. The whole problem in this thread is that when people critizise me they do it in an insultive way. I'm not a selfish person, you just misunderstood my whole point in this.
3: Dumb build? So you think that I would actually use a dumb build when in a pug? It's not like I'm actually trying to get myself killed out there. I make a build that I think is good and because I think it will work in that specific area. Of course my builds aren't perfect, but I don't actually make them to be useless. Don't just asume from what you didn't read that I want my team to fail because I'm not a bad guy. I don't use people as guinea pigs. I like to experiment sure, but I don't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing experiment at the cost of other people. I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish?
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants
Random anecdote of the day, for my fellow build discriminators: I was in the same pug party as a wammo in Dunes of Despair the other day and my heart sank when I saw him using mending in the mission. Much to my surprise he did a damn good job of tanking and that was one of the best runs of the evening. Sometimes it's true that it's the player and not the build that counts.
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But it makes one wonder: If he excels with bars where he wasted skill slots, how much better he would be with full bar ...
Selket
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Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe
I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish?
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Why should I waste time trying to help or argue with people who clearly won't understand it? There's absolutely no benefit when I can just as easily kick you and take a hero who can actually play the game with a moderate degree of skill, especially when compared to an idiot who can't even make a proper skill bar, let alone play one.
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe
2: When did I ever say that people should automatically let me run my "dumb build"? I actually said somewhere that I like constructive criticism and that I welcome suggestions for changing my build. The whole problem in this thread is that when people critizise me they do it in an insultive way. I'm not a selfish person, you just misunderstood my whole point in this.
3: Dumb build? So you think that I would actually use a dumb build when in a pug? It's not like I'm actually trying to get myself killed out there. I make a build that I think is good and because I think it will work in that specific area. Of course my builds aren't perfect, but I don't actually make them to be useless. Don't just asume from what you didn't read that I want my team to fail because I'm not a bad guy. I don't use people as guinea pigs. I like to experiment sure, but I don't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing experiment at the cost of other people. I've carefully considered my builds and I actually ASK people for suggestions before I go in. The problem is simply the tone of the responses. How the freaking hell can that be selfish? |
maxxfury
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Then how come you don't want to post your builds in this thread?
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which usually turns out to be the biggest crapfest.
Like the warrior/ranger with pindown, a pet and rampage, i had the pleasure of letting go from my last ab group for refusing to ping his secret build,
Then seeing him in "AWESOME action" in another less picky team
Ghost Omel
Even though i dont like rudeness and disrespect and understand you you completely... But you also must understand that players (most) play the game to WIn and PWNTHATDUNGUN typething instead of enjoying the game (Yes winning=/= enjoying all the time). When i personaly for PuGs i alwasy ask to ping builds.. no not to check whetther the build is AWESUM but to see what persons like to run.. and their imagination.. well i usualy let in horrible player into the guild -_-.. anything he can do can be outhealed or outproted by the heroes or others on the team.... When it comes to people i know i let them run whatever they want =)
Shadowhaze
I tried mending on my war when I first started it. I don't even remember the last time I used that on my war now.
It takes time to get used to a class and find out what skills work and which ones do not. If you've found a build that works and is effective for you though, by all means use it.
People who give constructive criticism are an asset to the game. Those who call people a "noob" and harrass people need to quit the game.
I've been in groups where the leader was totally clueless. So it depends on the person who is leader. Not all leaders have knowledge of all professions/skills.
And yes, as someone said, it can be the player that counts and not the build.
~And a late edit so I don't have to post again here...
lol at people bragging about being good at... *drum roll* ...a game.
It takes time to get used to a class and find out what skills work and which ones do not. If you've found a build that works and is effective for you though, by all means use it.
People who give constructive criticism are an asset to the game. Those who call people a "noob" and harrass people need to quit the game.
I've been in groups where the leader was totally clueless. So it depends on the person who is leader. Not all leaders have knowledge of all professions/skills.
And yes, as someone said, it can be the player that counts and not the build.
~And a late edit so I don't have to post again here...
lol at people bragging about being good at... *drum roll* ...a game.
Hanok Odbrook
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
We have all seen something like this happen.
But it makes one wonder: If he excels with bars where he wasted skill slots, how much better he would be with full bar ... |
But anyway:
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Originally Posted by yichi
The "Cookie cutter" or "Meta" builds we have now are there for a reason. Most of the build experimentation has already been done, countless times I might add. The builds we currently have and are accepted as "meta" builds have all been adapted and updated to the most current variant that accomplishes a goal for the team. Taking one piece of the team out and replacing it with a less effective piece only hinders the team and creates unnecessary tension in that team. Just because you want to be unique, or a liar if you are one to ping one build and use another, doesn't mean that you automatically know whats best for the other players involved in the team of people that you are joining. If you want to be unique and run whatever you want, make your own groups or play with friends, but at least have the courtesy to run the bar asked of you if it is whats going to benefit the team the most. By running whatever you want too or joining a team and having absolutely no intention or changing your bar or being flexible to the teams needs, than you are just as selfish as the players who are being rude/arrogant/ignorant that you are complaining about in the first place.
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Oh ... what's that you say? OPed? Couldn't group (i.e. find a team to accomplish the goal in an enjoyable (*fun*) way)? Oh, I get it, only certain metas are allowed. That's ... not ... confusing ... at all.
Hanok Odbrook
Sword Hammer Axe
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
Then how come you don't want to post your builds in this thread?
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(Without runes) 12 axe mastery, 9 tactics, 9 strength.
1) Asura Scan (at 10 asura)
2) Soldier's Stance
3) "I am Unstoppable" (at 10 norn)
4) Watch Yourself
5) Healing Signet
6) some res, at that time just a res signet
7) Dismember
8) Penetrating Blow
the other one:
(without runes) 10 axe mastery, 11 strength, 10 healing prayers
1) Mending
2) Feel no Pain (at 10 norn)
3) Healing Hands
4) Endure Pain
5) Great Dwarf Armor (at 10 Dwarf)
6) some res, in that case Rebirth
7) "I am unstoppable" (at 10 norn)
8) Sprint
To that Selket guy earlier: That's exactly the kind of Attitude I'm talking about. I mean seriously what makes you think you are better than me? I've finished Urgoz on HM with a 3-man team, I'm legendary Vanquisher, have played the game for 4 years and I've H/H'ed Duncan's, any other dungeon and Frostmaws on HM. I don't see how you can simply look at someones build and then judge him as a guy who "Can not play the game".
Selket
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Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe
To that Selket girl earlier: That's exactly the kind of Attitude I'm talking about. I mean seriously what makes you think you are better than me? I've finished Urgoz on HM with a 3-man team, I'm legendary Vanquisher, have played the game for 4 years and I've H/H'ed Duncan's, any other dungeon and Frostmaws on HM. I don't see how you can simply look at someones build and then judge him as a guy who "Can not play the game".
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I'm sure some of this gives me the right to assume that someone who makes builds without any damage in them and then has the audacity to go, "Y NO 1 WANT PLAY W/ ME IM RLY GUD????" is bad.
Kattar
This is why we can't have nice things.
Eragon Zarroc
just play alone =P
Yichi
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Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe
1: Why would I go an give a thumbs up to something I don't agree with? Don't think that just because people give me a reason I have to agree with that. Maybe I don't think it's a valid reason or maybe I don't think it's reason enough...
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Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Then why was UB nerfed? Why are people screaming for a nerf to PermaSin? If these are the most effective and efficient ways to accomplish the goal, then there's no need for any nerfing as these were/are the most effective builds in the game and every team should be running them.
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beanerman_99
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Originally Posted by aoeclald
While testing builds is generally not entirely frowned upon, the skill bars you are coming up with are appearing as "joke builds" to the PUGs you are joining. As a warrior, any time someone sees Mending on the bar, it's an instant WAMMO alarm and people don't want you. Also, based on your post, I am pretty sure you are not a newb, noob, or anywhere near unintelligent, you just want to have fun playing bars that are not mainstream and progress at the same time.
With that, it is okay to test bars, but make sure you are using skills which are not outdated for general PvE use, such as Mending. Restrict your test bars to trying out different elites, but not to the point where it's a joke "Oh, I bet I can beat HM with my echo frenzy build lololol" is the message you are giving off to people in your PUGs. Based on your Arborstone bar, perhaps they were looking for more damage-oriented builds than tanking. Warriors are great for PvE and PvP, but a lot of their focus should be on damage unless otherwise specified, such as in The Deep where they are to hold many of the foes or in farming situations. Keep testing bars, but don't get discouraged. If they kick you for having a test bar, have a real bar to back you up so you can still go and finish and save the test bar for later. When a team is purely BYOB and doesn't matter what you have, then you bring your test bar. If it gets you through, then good game -- if not, that is setting you up for another set of insults. Gaming people get bored with doing the same thing over and over again unless it is self-rewarding, such as farming. Redoing missions or runs are not the same however, so they expect success. |
What a great post. Insightful and respectful to the OP. I wish more people would post like this instead of attacking others.
For me personally when I join a PUG for a Zmission or bounty I would prefer that people take builds that are proven to work. My time for playing is limited because I have a kid. So I would much rather you take a build that works so we complete the mission the first time instead of wasting my time by Failing the mission because you decided to test a new build.
Neo Nugget
I'm pretty sure this thread has run it's course and is just turning into an off topic +1 fest.
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