Running interrupt builds requires timing, as do MM bomber builds, healing, protection, spikes, as well as many other things in this game.
Like I said it is all a mater of opinion on how people think the game should be played and how different people enjoy playing the game.
Because you don't think using timed builds is playing the game or requires skill doesn't mean people aren't playing the game or don't have skills.
Had you people not of continued to ask for nerf after nerf there would be many more options for builds to do things with.
Playing a game like this means there are many different ways to enjoy it, I don't enjoy the competition of PvP so I don't PvP, because I don't get enjoyment from the need/presure to win. I enjoy playing PvE by farming, role playing, learning a new profession , or coming up with new builds, or rolling through things with guild/alliance mates that is what I enjoy.
Can I farm the same thing constantly, no, but if that is what some like to do that is how they enjoy playing. Do I speed clear no, but I don't hold it against those who enjoy getting better and better times at it. They are playing how they enjoy playing. They are getting enjoyment out of beating their best time.
It is a game and like any game people play differently, just because you don't play things a certain way doesn’t mean your way is the only way to get enjoyment form it.
What makes this game good is the option to play it how you get enjoyment from it.
Why I think PvE is broken.(rant)
Chieftain Heavyhand
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand
You guys talk about build diversity how can that happen when everytime a new build sticks out you guys ask to have it hammered down?
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If a build is "sticking out" then it's generally superior to other builds. That's called imbalance. The more imbalance there is the less diversity there is. Right now there is *very* little diversity and a *lot* of imbalance. Couple this with the fact that the imbalanced stuff is really overpowered turns again that could require thought into nothing more then "press button 1 see purty lights".
And it's all fine and dandy if people just want to see a lightshow, your just has to be *more* than a lightshow for those who want something more. This is where GW currently fails.
I could expand a bit more in regards to SF, but what is there to say? Two people are doing what 8 should be doing. While this could be done in the past the times compared to then and now are crazy stupid ridiculous.
Lopezus
You guys are completly thinking out of proportion, how big percantage of pve community do you think finished FoW/UW in NM, let alone HM or speed clears ?
It looks like probably 15 % how finished it "traditional" way and another 20 % with use of pve skills, cons and SF ( those doing speed clears included). It's argument inside minority and as such it hardly proves game being broken.
It looks like probably 15 % how finished it "traditional" way and another 20 % with use of pve skills, cons and SF ( those doing speed clears included). It's argument inside minority and as such it hardly proves game being broken.
Bryant Again
Pretty much anything being discussed on any forum will affect the majority.
That said, there have been plenty of other posts that have easily shown what is broken and why.
That said, there have been plenty of other posts that have easily shown what is broken and why.
FengShuiDove
For a year and a half I tried to tell this forum about how great infinite Shadow Form was, and nobody listened. It took two things to get perma off the ground in the eyes of the community:
1. One particularly popular farm location. Planes. This was when everyone started playing Assassin. If you'll remember, there was an A/Me Planes farm posted in the farming section long before people ran A/E. Look it up.
2. Ease of use. A/E perma removed the need for knowledge of skill recharges and gave us Sliver so that pushing 1-6 on recharge will blow stuff up if aggro is decent. Believe it or not, there were people before the Shadow Form buff that didn't have the necessary skill to run perma because they couldn't figure it out. Heck, the last few times SF has been changed people think you can no longer run A/Me. Get a calculator and learn how skills work.
Why do I say this? Because regardless of effectiveness, people will run, almost exclusively, what's popular. I'm sure I wasn't the only one running perma before the buff, but it was just as effective in most areas (Vaettir much?) and would have been just as effective in the tank-and-spank builds like Cryway that now tear Ursan times to pieces.
Is there some synergy of skills that can be constructed into a team build that is more effective for general/high-end/speed clear PvE than Shadow Form as it currently serves? Maybe, and even if there is one that's known, someone will quote this post and go "nuh-uh! sf is so borken it is so baed 4 game!" just because they're ignorant of the fact.
People will play, exclusively, whatever the flavor of the month is. If ANet gets rid of SF, expect to hear complaints about Obsidian Flesh within two weeks. That's my prediction. It's happened before, namely with Ursan, and the exact same thing will happen again if they take Shadow Form away.
1. One particularly popular farm location. Planes. This was when everyone started playing Assassin. If you'll remember, there was an A/Me Planes farm posted in the farming section long before people ran A/E. Look it up.
2. Ease of use. A/E perma removed the need for knowledge of skill recharges and gave us Sliver so that pushing 1-6 on recharge will blow stuff up if aggro is decent. Believe it or not, there were people before the Shadow Form buff that didn't have the necessary skill to run perma because they couldn't figure it out. Heck, the last few times SF has been changed people think you can no longer run A/Me. Get a calculator and learn how skills work.
Why do I say this? Because regardless of effectiveness, people will run, almost exclusively, what's popular. I'm sure I wasn't the only one running perma before the buff, but it was just as effective in most areas (Vaettir much?) and would have been just as effective in the tank-and-spank builds like Cryway that now tear Ursan times to pieces.
Is there some synergy of skills that can be constructed into a team build that is more effective for general/high-end/speed clear PvE than Shadow Form as it currently serves? Maybe, and even if there is one that's known, someone will quote this post and go "nuh-uh! sf is so borken it is so baed 4 game!" just because they're ignorant of the fact.
People will play, exclusively, whatever the flavor of the month is. If ANet gets rid of SF, expect to hear complaints about Obsidian Flesh within two weeks. That's my prediction. It's happened before, namely with Ursan, and the exact same thing will happen again if they take Shadow Form away.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
You guys are completly thinking out of proportion, how big percantage of pve community do you think finished FoW/UW in NM, let alone HM or speed clears ?
It looks like probably 15 % how finished it "traditional" way and another 20 % with use of pve skills, cons and SF ( those doing speed clears included). It's argument inside minority and as such it hardly proves game being broken. |
I haven't played as extensively as many, but I can tell you for sure that I had the most fun in GW when it was played coop, not simply putting a bunch of invicible people to skip the difficulty of the game. And I'm not putting "my" fun before the fun of others, but many people will only see the game's elite areas through the "broken mechanics" of the game (ofc they won't see it as broken, because "it works").
People have "killed" diversity in their heads. We indeed end up with an industry of a few well-known builds, no originality, there are even strict codes to advertise these (see ToA). People don't come here and say "let's group and have fun", they're saying "let's group and win" and they'll become blind to anything that is not in the list of things that they know.
People will claim they have fun and thus nothing should be changed. Until in a few years you start realising that GW has been on a slope where it's difficulty to get back to some "sense". Yes, it's just a game, yet anyone is entitled to trying to convince others that there's a greater good to achieve through removing OP.
Until you meet the wall of the "I'm having fun, leave me alone, don't touch anything".
Lopezus
Yeah but it is a game not olympic qualifications, so even if we consider that less skilled players shouldn't finish in elite areas, solution that pretty much cease them from being played it's hardly a solution imo.
Wish Swiftdeath
Yeah im sorry but but anyone who thinks that it isn't a clear because they don't kill every mob is a retard.
Shadowform needs to get smiterbooned, it's terrible for the game in general and just rewards grind over skill(wait, what????) I never play it because where's the fun in that? I don't spend hundreds of ours practicing and trying to get better so I can mash buttons in sequence.
Shadowform needs to get smiterbooned, it's terrible for the game in general and just rewards grind over skill(wait, what????) I never play it because where's the fun in that? I don't spend hundreds of ours practicing and trying to get better so I can mash buttons in sequence.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
Yeah but it is a game not olympic qualifications, so even if we consider that less skilled players shouldn't finish in elite areas, solution that pretty much cease them from being played it's hardly a solution imo.
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Lopezus
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| Then those "less skilled" can stay in Normal mode and ANet can tone Normal mode Elite areas down. They get to see the areas and hit some bad guys while the more experienced don't have to feel like they have to chop both their legs off for a challenge. |
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
Maybe it would help but that's different solution then nerfing SF or pve skills or removing cons, i would agree that UW speed clears time looks wierd but i would be totally opposed to such situation in 2005, but in 2009 ( with no new content coming ) it doesn't make to much sense to keep any pve content too much restricted form wider masses, they know better then this in WoW since with new expansions they add new high end content for top players while old 'elite areas' receive wider attention from "normal' players due to increased level and better gear.
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Instead that potential longevity has been shattered and we ended up with a light show.
idicious
To the person who's saying SF isn't overpowered and that people keep just referring to UWSC's
You can complete City and Gloom in DoA HM in about 30 minutes each while only having a bonder hero with you, who you can flag out of range for more drops 90% of city.
A sliver sin SOLO's all the mobs in the large room of foundry, and then proceeds to solo kill the Fury group only thing he needs are bonds. That area used to take over an hour to clear with everyone in the team having to be at their best, it can be done in 10 minutes now with all mobs exept 1 killed by a sliver sin.
You can complete City and Gloom in DoA HM in about 30 minutes each while only having a bonder hero with you, who you can flag out of range for more drops 90% of city.
A sliver sin SOLO's all the mobs in the large room of foundry, and then proceeds to solo kill the Fury group only thing he needs are bonds. That area used to take over an hour to clear with everyone in the team having to be at their best, it can be done in 10 minutes now with all mobs exept 1 killed by a sliver sin.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Like I said, the effect of the skill isn't really OP, I think. It is an elite, it decreases your damage, and it drops your health when it ends - all a good balance to the effect. Constantly maintainable? That is a bad thing for the elite areas, at least, and why I am all for putting those counters in just those areas to make it nigh impossible to do. You don't even need real skills to do this, make them monster skills/effects - a touch skill or shout that removes all enchantments but with a 120-second recharge so it doesn't affect normal play too much.
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Adding a skill like that would be a decent idea, but they aren't going to add it to every single elite area.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Don't you see the "39 mins, 2 sins", "40 mins, 2 sins" and "46 mins, 2 sins" links?
10 quests out of 10 is not an entire clear? It's the one that gives you the HoM statue. No one is going to vanquish UW? |
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Originally Posted by fenix
Get with the times, all the quests IS an entire clear. You're failing so hard at this thread.
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Why are you arguing against something that you misunderstood? No, they cannot kill every single monster in the area, you're right. However, I never meant for you to take entire clear that literally, I'm sorry you misunderstood. You're the one misunderstanding my statement and spinning it. Generally an entire clear of UW/FoW/DoA is doing all the quests. That's what most people refer to it as. Killing every single moster is pointless and a waste of time. Yes, it's a sin and an ele. I'm so sorry that I was wrong about that, not that it makes any difference.
Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins/an assassin and an ele/possibly 2 eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is dumb, and shows why SF needs to be nerfed. Yes, they can do that. That doesn't make it so SF isn't ridiculously overpowered, though. The fact is, a SF sin can tank a million enemies, and it can still do impressive damage. The skill is still going to be overpowered. There is a need to destroy the skill. A single skill that allows you to become invincible against most enemies in the game should not be in the game. You might as well add a skill that makes all enemies within earshot do 0 damage. The skill does not belong in Guild Wars. |
Now on the speed runs, Yes they are fast and yes they do need to be slowed down, guess what the mechanics are there in game alrdy for it. Just as you need to kill the graspings in the first chamber to open the door, That such mechanic can be added to other sections of the UW requiring you to kill certain creatures to open gates in the UW. Guess what that is also adding content.
Thus would end any kind of speed runs.
Running half a race taking a short cut is not finishing the whole race.
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.
Sure, you could say we're out of date, but so is ANet then. They've already shown that they don;t exactly approve of what's going on by somewhat nerfing CoP. They've also said they dislike speedclears, and are looking at skills associated with it (read: shadow form). It's simple. Get rid of shadow form, and get rid of speed clears. You still have a bunch of overpowered builds, you just can't clear elite areas in under half an hour, which is retarded anyways. 3 skill slots to be invincible? Sounds pretty amazingly overpowered to me. . |
And its not just 3 damn skills that it takes to do it.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
When all else fails, challenge the semantics. Challenge them hard.
For reference, Monk/Necro teams doing all UW quests, on the first attempt, took slightly over three hours. The biggest difference is that the Mo/N team has to pull/blast its way through mobs that sin teams can just run by. |
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Gah, missed signets in that list of general counters.
I was debating adding wells in too. |
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Yeap thats right, signets, touch skills, wells, PBAoEs, Traps and other effects do effect shadowform. so much for the claims that there isnt enough ways to kill SF.
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These skills are suprisingly rare and usually can be countered in some way, making it possible. The Stygian Veil has enemy touchers (Vamp Touch and Bite), yet these mobs are still tanked (though not in a solo setup).
I cannot think of any enemy in any elite area that packs any signets of threat to a SF sin. Nor can I think of any that pack Well of the Profane (the only enemies that pack that skill are White Mantle Ritualists as far as I remember).
PBAoE skills do not seem to be used by the AI against a single enemy - I could very well be wrong here, this is extrapolated from the behaviour of Dryders not using Lava Font in the Underworld.
Touch skills are usually fairly ineffective with only a handful being threatening. Shock for example, can be shrugged off with IAU.
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
It is a speed RUN NOT SPEED CLEAR DAMMIT. USE UR BRAINS.
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Here we are back to you thinking its a single skill when its not. As I said fraking earlier then the case of the warrior. It is the single class that can solo the whole game or have you forgotten you own posts.
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Shadow Form allows the build to work. Shadow Form has been carefully tuned so that it can be maintained indefinitely with another 2 skills or just Deadly Paradox and a Celerity. Obviously killing one of these would break the build, but it will have knock on effects elsewhere.
The rest of the skills are usually there to do damage or provide extra tanking capability. Nerfing these will have little effect and will reduce its effeciency only a bit.
The core of the build is Shadow Form. The other skills that go with it are necessary for it's function yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is broken because it can be maintained indefinitly.
Are you trying to say the combo is broken, but not the skill? Because that would be a lot easier to actually understand.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
Yeah but it is a game not olympic qualifications, so even if we consider that less skilled players shouldn't finish in elite areas, solution that pretty much cease them from being played it's hardly a solution imo.
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As for the people saying that a game shouldn't have its difficulty curve adjusted...I hate to break it to you, but PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE ONLINE RPG does it. Stuff like diablo 2 and WoW increase the level cap and power items and allow people to grind for easier difficulty, and add extra content for the people who already beat the older areas, giving the illusion of character development. Korean RPGs add powerful pay items. Games like Ragnarok Online does it by creating addition advanced classes that has more powerful skills. Even games like starcraft and warcraft which are not RPG goes out of the way to provide map editing tool so that casual custom map can be created for less skilled people.
At the end of day if a game is branded an RPG the majority of the players would be "stupid". IMO that is not a bad thing. GW is already a much more skilled required game compared to the grinder RPGs, but there's a limit to how much you can force strategic play onto RPG players....too much and eventually the majority would think "why am I playing this game and not starcraft or other dedicated strategy game".
Guild wars already had several years for people to learn, and its pretty obvious that most people (pugs) are already at the limit of their skill. Some people are just not skill Nerfing Shadow Form is not a solution because it only pleases a small minority at the expense of frustrating the majority even more.
All they neded to do is to adjust areas to make them "elite". Shadow form in pug's hands generally don't affect anyone. Good players generally don't play with them anyways or use heroes, and there are no decent reward for clearing some basic mission with perma.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
Stuff like diablo 2 and WoW increase the level cap and power items and allow people to grind for easier difficulty, and add extra content for the people who already beat the older areas, giving the illusion of character development.
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| Even games like starcraft and warcraft which are not RPG goes out of the way to provide map editing tool so that casual custom map can be created for less skilled people. |
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Here we are back to you thinking its a single skill when its not. As I said fraking earlier then the case of the warrior. It is the single class that can solo the whole game or have you forgotten you own posts.
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While we're on that topic, how many skills did Protective Bond take to maintain? For less defense (nothing against spells, and counting health regen skills). Yet I can't imagine anyone saying it wasn't nerf-worthy.
manitoba1073
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
Did you not read my post before that?
These skills are suprisingly rare and usually can be countered in some way, making it possible. The Stygian Veil has enemy touchers (Vamp Touch and Bite), yet these mobs are still tanked (though not in a solo setup). Yes I did read and I said about adding said skills is a possiblity. I cannot think of any enemy in any elite area that packs any signets of threat to a SF sin. Nor can I think of any that pack Well of the Profane (the only enemies that pack that skill are White Mantle Ritualists as far as I remember). which is another problem in and of itself, and can be easily fixed PBAoE skills do not seem to be used by the AI against a single enemy - I could very well be wrong here, this is extrapolated from the behaviour of Dryders not using Lava Font in the Underworld. They do use it against a single enemy Touch skills are usually fairly ineffective with only a handful being threatening. Shock for example, can be shrugged off with IAU. which goes back to being easily fixed, however shock can still hit you as your running past at full speed This is a trivial matter and it's somewhat pointless saying it. Rapidly doing all the quests in the Underworld or Fissure of Woe is known as a Speed Clear - hence UWSC and FoWSC. Argue against that if you want, but it's the standard and is used by pretty much everybody hanging around in the Temple of Ages. No its what makes the distinction between reality and false claims. Skipping 90% of the content. And its a wrong definition used by people not knowing what they are talking about. As they are Runs and not Clears. Ok, I'm really not sure how to answer this. Shadow Form allows the build to work. Shadow Form has been carefully tuned so that it can be maintained indefinitely with another 2 skills or just Deadly Paradox and a Celerity. Obviously killing one of these would break the build, but it will have knock on effects elsewhere. The rest of the skills are usually there to do damage or provide extra tanking capability. Nerfing these will have little effect and will reduce its effeciency only a bit. The core of the build is Shadow Form. The other skills that go with it are necessary for it's function yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is broken because it can be maintained indefinitly. Are you trying to say the combo is broken, but not the skill? Because that would be a lot easier to actually understand. |
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Originally Posted by Avarre
The warrior's solos are balanced by the speed of the run. As has already been evidenced, SF solo farms exceed that drastically. Nobody complained about ranger/mesmer/warrior UW solo farms compared to the prot bond build because they simply weren't as effective. While we're on that topic, how many skills did Protective Bond take to maintain? For less defense (nothing against spells, and counting health regen skills). Yet I can't imagine anyone saying it wasn't nerf-worthy. |
Oh how little do you forget that Protective Bond also was a bugged skill that could cause the game to crash thus needing to be changed.
Did you not read this part of my post(ofcourse you didnt) here it is again
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Now on the speed runs, Yes they are fast and yes they do need to be slowed down, guess what the mechanics are there in game alrdy for it. Just as you need to kill the graspings in the first chamber to open the door, That such mechanic can be added to other sections of the UW requiring you to kill certain creatures to open gates in the UW. Guess what that is also adding content.
Thus would end any kind of speed runs. |
fenix
I find it ridiculous that you are basing your entire argument on claiming that everyone in GW is wrong, and that they are called Speed RUNS not Clears.
Why are you even arguing? Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE refers to finishing all the quests in UW/FoW as a speed clear. UWSC. FoWSC. Stop trying to base your poor arguments on something you're wrong about.
Why are you even arguing? Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE refers to finishing all the quests in UW/FoW as a speed clear. UWSC. FoWSC. Stop trying to base your poor arguments on something you're wrong about.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Oh how little do you forget that Protective Bond also was a bugged skill that could cause the game to crash thus needing to be changed.
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Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Yes the combination between the combo of skills and the Area itself is what the problem is. You screw over the skill and the problems still remain.
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Shadow Form has been tuned so it can be maintained with these skills (or consumables) - that was what A-Net aimed for.
The skill is overpowered because it can be maintained, period.*
*Well, technically it's because it provides near maintainable invulnerability.
Fixing the area is quite difficult and impractical.
A key issue is the fact it's AI we're dealing with and is hence, quite predictable and stupid. That will never change.
Arkantos
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| It is a speed RUN NOT SPEED CLEAR DAMMIT. USE UR BRAINS. |
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Here we are back to you thinking its a single skill when its not. As I said fraking earlier then the case of the warrior. It is the single class that can solo the whole game or have you forgotten you own posts. Now on the speed runs, Yes they are fast and yes they do need to be slowed down, guess what the mechanics are there in game alrdy for it. Just as you need to kill the graspings in the first chamber to open the door, That such mechanic can be added to other sections of the UW requiring you to kill certain creatures to open gates in the UW. Guess what that is also adding content. Thus would end any kind of speed runs. Running half a race taking a short cut is not finishing the whole race. |
Yes, ANet can switch the mechanics around to prevent speed clears. That's still not fixing shadow form. It's not only overpowered because it does speed clears the fastest, but because it makes you invincible. What part of that do you not understand? Fixing speed clears is one thing, fixing shadow form is another.
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And yet they are not doing it under 30 mins. More overstating yet again. Whats next 15 mins gonna be your claims. And its not just 3 damn skills that it takes to do it. |
And wow, even if I was talking about the duo, you're arguing that I was off by 3 minutes, and comparing that to being off by 18 minutes. Are you running out of arguments, now?
And yet again, you are right, manitoba! It doesn't take 3 skills to be invincible. It takes 2 and a consumable! Shit, looks like you won that argument.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
As for the people saying that a game shouldn't have its difficulty curve adjusted...I hate to break it to you, but PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE ONLINE RPG does it.
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In Diablo 2 you get better loots...but you're also advancing into more difficult areas. So when you step into the next chapter and go "hey look I have awesome weapons and stuff now!" the monsters say "oh hey SO DO WE!" and you're like "aw" and get 3 shotted.
Same thing goes for WoW. Until the next expansion is released, *all players* have to go through the gear and raid progression in the proper order. The only reason you see the pre-expansion raids and instances stay the same is because Blizzard doesn't care about them anymore. It's not to "appease the nubs", it's to "save us some time and money".
As for Guild Wars? Well it's similar to the D2 situation, except the bad guys *don't* get better stuff - yet we do. Our title ranks go up, we use more consumables, we bring more PvE skills, etc. In general the game becomes, as I said earlier, simply a light show.
Yes, many and most players are not going to be "good". This is fine. What's not fine is catering the entirety of the game to that, including all difficulty settings and likewise. That's a bad game. A good game pleases both ends of the spectrum, and GW doesn't do this.
"But you can play without PvE skills and stuff", well that just further proves the point that it's way too simplistic. And besides, players shouldn't feel the need to gimp themselves for a challenge. Of course they will reach a peak we they're just good at everything in the game, but the idea is that that should take awhile and that ANet shouldn't make the travel time to that peak five hundred times faster.
Lopezus
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As for Guild Wars? Well it's similar to the D2 situation, except the bad guys *don't* get better stuff - yet we do. Our title ranks go up, we use more consumables, we bring more PvE skills, etc. In general the game becomes, as I said earlier, simply a light show. Yes, many and most players are not going to be "good". This is fine. What's not fine is catering the entirety of the game to that, including all difficulty settings and likewise. That's a bad game. A good game pleases both ends of the spectrum, and GW doesn't do this |
Ps. So with removing SF and other measn of fast clearing will we see plenty of balanced HM UW runs ? Of course we won't, i don't belive that less people playing is no mean good for the game.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
Maybe it is a light show but it is still being played, of course there is certain and popular point of view like: people not skilled enough shouldn't have acces to many of content of a four year old game, if they can't get better thay should stop playing, and in fact with there incapability of getting better they shouln't buy this game in the first place...
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...Which couldn't be further from what I had actually said.
Inexperienced players who just want to dick around in the easiest setting or areas should be able to do that - but they should not be able to dick around in the most difficult settings. The latter is what we have now. Instead of appeasing to those who want to think and those who don't, GW only appeals to the latter.
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
Ps. So with removing SF and other measn of fast clearing will we see plenty of balanced HM UW runs ? Of course we won't, i don't belive that less people playing is no mean good for the game.
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The second sentence is an inevitability since all the changes making GW easier have already gotten many people to stop playing.
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Same thing goes for WoW. Until the next expansion is released, *all players* have to go through the gear and raid progression in the proper order. The only reason you see the pre-expansion raids and instances stay the same is because Blizzard doesn't care about them anymore. It's not to "appease the nubs", it's to "save us some time and money".
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Points of case:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Qiraji_Resonating_Crystal
http://www.wowwiki.com/Amani_War_Bear
http://www.wowwiki.com/Atiesh,_Great...f_the_Guardian
But there is not point in preventing people to see older content easy mode: non-raiding people can just join randomway at max level and go have some fun, there are no rewards that matter anymore (there are better green quest rewards items than old epics, so they can as well let people rampage there and experience content that took quite a few resources to create ... a way to let 95% enjoy what 5% were supposed to enjoy) to loud part of community.
But as you said, its only so because there is new content that will matter more and which can not be easymoded as long at it is fresh enough.
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In GW, equivalent would be to allow people rampage through UW, but turn off ecto drops, completition chest and statue if they use some "unbeatableway".
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Actually, blizzard took steps againt "nubs" getiing easy rewards but only where it mattered.
Points of case: http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Qiraji_Resonating_Crystal http://www.wowwiki.com/Amani_War_Bear http://www.wowwiki.com/Atiesh,_Great...f_the_Guardian But there is not point in preventing people to see older content easy mode: non-raiding people can just join randomway at max level and go have some fun, there are no rewards that matter anymore (there are better green quest rewards items than old epics, so they can as well let people rampage there and experience content that took quite a few resources to create ... a way to let 95% enjoy what 5% were supposed to enjoy) to loud part of community. But as you said, its only so because there is new content that will matter more and which can not be easymoded as long at it is fresh enough. --- In GW, equivalent would be to allow people rampage through UW, but turn off ecto drops, completition chest and statue if they use some "unbeatableway". |
I too agree with allowing players to just mess around and see the content, but only with limitations.
Lopezus
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| Inexperienced players who just want to dick around in the easiest setting or areas should be able to do that - but they should not be able to dick around in the most difficult settings |
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| Of course we won't see more people running balanced HM UW runs. These people who are SF'ing aren't in UW to play through it, they're just there to farm it. They're not there to play through it and enjoy the content, they're there to profit from it. They are farmers. What they're going to do instead is look for the next hottest farm spot. |
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Lopezus
No one is going to stay in easest setting for four years, period. Either they leave - no good for game, or they get better and transit to harder content - obviously that is not hapaning, or that need help in order to keep them playing - imo adding optional band-aids like pve skills or cons is quite reasonable option, certainly better then breaking the game with removing level ,armour or weapon caps.
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Not every player sees themselves being "locked out" due to skill as bad. Some players understand that they're not so good and are content with playing in the "nub" areas.
Then there are some players that understand they're not good and want to get better - and they will improve themselves. They want to see that high-end content and actually work towards that and see pay-off. It was awesome seeing these kinds of players in WoW; it was pretty amazing to see players you've helped since they were at lvl 1 fighting alongside you against Illidan.
The point of "locking out" players who are inexperienced is for longevity. Not everyone is going to qq if they can't vanquish the UW in HM because they're not that good. I agreed with Zwei in that players should be able to "mess around" in those elite areas provided it doesn't get the same recognition from the devs as completing it in HM with build, skill, and coordination.
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
If no one's going to stay in the easiest setting for four years, then why make the entire game the easiest setting?
Not every player sees themselves being "locked out" due to skill as bad. Some players understand that they're not so good and are content with playing in the "nub" areas. Then there are some players that understand they're not good and want to get better - and they will improve themselves. They want to see that high-end content and actually work towards that and see pay-off. It was awesome seeing these kinds of players in WoW; it was pretty amazing to see players you've helped since they were at lvl 1 fighting alongside you against Illidan. The point of "locking out" players who are inexperienced is for longevity. Not everyone is going to qq if they can't vanquish the UW in HM because they're not that good. I agreed with Zwei in that players should be able to "mess around" in those elite areas provided it doesn't get the same recognition from the devs as completing it in HM with build, skill, and coordination. |
Bryant Again
That's why I've been saying - for the longest time, both in this thread and others - that they should tone down the areas in Normal mode a bit in addition to balancing all these overpowered facets. The "OP stuffs" wouldn't be required if the areas weren't a pain in the ass for your average player. I also feel that PvE in general needs a whole reworking to make pugging less stressful, but mostly for another thread.
rick1027
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT
So, from what I gather, this is pretty much another "Sins and Monks are bad for the game, nerf them please" thread, which is to soon be another in the bunch of previous threads we've had concerning this issue. We know Shadow Form is a serious problem that ANet continues to not address seriously, and we know that Monks have pretty much dominated PvE in both solo and team senses for a long time. Shadow Form needs a nerf, nothing new there. Some Monk skills can certainly be toned down to make Monks less able in PvE, and for the better. |
UnChosen
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
That's why I've been saying - for the longest time, both in this thread and others - that they should tone down the areas in Normal mode a bit in addition to balancing all these overpowered facets. The "OP stuffs" wouldn't be required if the areas weren't a pain in the ass for your average player. I also feel that PvE in general needs a whole reworking to make pugging less stressful, but mostly for another thread.
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Burst Cancel
I've always been puzzled by Anet's push to make hard mode easier. Did anyone think to make Nightmare mode easier in Doom? How about DMD mode in Devil May Cry? 4D mode in Star Ocean 3? Ultra mode in Mushihime?
YunSooJin
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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
I've always been puzzled by Anet's push to make hard mode easier. Did anyone think to make Nightmare mode easier in Doom? How about DMD mode in Devil May Cry? 4D mode in Star Ocean 3? Ultra mode in Mushihime?
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by UnChosen
The thing is....do you think they're going to rework many areas in the game at this point?
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That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good.
Rocky Raccoon
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Should it matter? If ANet wanted to keep a more deep and good game they would've done this. They didn't. They got lazy and just went "#*%@ it". A slew of terrible ideas that are now becoming a staple of many a player.
That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good. |
EPO Bot
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Should it matter? If ANet wanted to keep a more deep and good game they would've done this. They didn't. They got lazy and just went "#*%@ it". A slew of terrible ideas that are now becoming a staple of many a player.
That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good. |
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger
Perhaps that is what GW2 will be. Why invest time and money into a game that is 4 years old and a new replacement on the way?
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Originally Posted by EPO Bot
And people would still complain just as much. The game is fine, it's the players that make it bad because they chose to play boring builds.
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-Sonata-
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I'd agree that it's players making it bad and complaining and offering terrible ideas. But it's ANet who's listening to them, and I don't think the players can be held fully accountable when the developer goes and removes massive amounts of depth from the game.
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If there's one thing that can be taken from this discussion, as well as similar discussions on related topics, is that perhaps Guild Wars has been a great foundation for a learning experience, not just from a players perspective, but from a developers perspective as well.
I know that many times in my life I've been told I have to learn to fail in order to learn how to succeed. It is my hope that GW2 learns from the successful points of our current game and improves on that. It is also my hope that they learn from the things that haven't worked and improve in those areas as well.
Of course, only time will tell. We can all debate for a long time as to the broken mechanics of this game, as well as many others. I think the more important question I ask myself is, will both sides of the equation learn from the success and lack there of in some areas in the future release of GW2? Again only time will tell, but I hope that's the case.