Why I think PvE is broken.(rant) - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

13 Jul 2009 at 08:37 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by shefdawg

Dude i seriously think you totally missing the point, it the point was a broad side of a barn door you hit the the next door neighbor's house, lol. We have already established it's not just one skill but rather three. And when was the last time that you have ever seen a warrior or a ranger speed clear one of these elite areas in 15 mins. or heck even be able to solo 9/10s of the game such as the perma sin can. I mean dude have you even read what the skill does, for such and such time ALLLLLLLLLLLL attacks against you fail and ALLLLLLLLL spells against you fail. WOW what a stupid skill to even add to this game to be honest, when this game is about the damage you take and ways to maybe reduce, or heal it up.

And as per everyone else arguing that these areas are not supposed to be hard that is crap cause look at them, URGOZ and the DEEP you cant even get to till you beat the game, same with DOA, THEY ARE ELITE. last time i looked at the word elite it did not say hey elite is just a tad bit harder than normal, its for people that know how to play but in this game any shmuck can do them, kind of disgusting if you ask me.

Oh really cause its quite funny I can prove that its not all skill or all attacks that fail againt SF. The point is that a War can also solo 90% of the game so according to your logic the War must be deleted from the game too then because of the skills it uses.

I hate to break this to you but there is never been a 15 min speed clear of UW with 1 sin. It required multiple players doing it at the same time to acheive that.

As far as who said the Elite zones were supposed to easy, noone has said that. However in GW case Elite doesnt mean only a select few have access to it.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

13 Jul 2009 at 11:00 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Instead of taking or changing 1 little teeny tiny skill ( taking the steps to walk around said Wall ) you advocate nerfing it ( bashing the wall down ).

Straw man. Changing a skill in terms of a downgrade is what nerf means. Furthermore, you make the assumption that anyone against SF wants to see it eradicated, when it was acceptable before when it could not be infinitely maintained.

I have no idea why I even try discussing when you simply misread and warp what people say to fit your own opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

I hate to break this to you but there is never been a 15 min speed clear of UW with 1 sin. It required multiple players doing it at the same time to acheive that.

Compare the best solo sin timing to the best monk/nec duo timing.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

13 Jul 2009 at 13:53 - 163

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Straw man. Changing a skill in terms of a downgrade is what nerf means. Furthermore, you make the assumption that anyone against SF wants to see it eradicated, when it was acceptable before when it could not be infinitely maintained.

I have no idea why I even try discussing when you simply misread and warp what people say to fit your own opinions.

Compare the best solo sin timing to the best monk/nec duo timing.

Been there done that, you do realize the monk/necro team clears much faster over all than a single sin could.

The only one who wraps what ppl say and try to twist them is you. Or when the facts around here show your wrong you ban and or delete the posts.

Hate to break this to you also I know not everyone wants it eradicated, no assumption there, I know the individuals around here. And it was always able to be maintained infinitely in 1 form or another. However it still required more than itself to be done.

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

13 Jul 2009 at 23:58 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Been there done that, you do realize the monk/necro team clears much faster over all than a single sin could.

The only one who wraps what ppl say and try to twist them is you. Or when the facts around here show your wrong you ban and or delete the posts.

Hate to break this to you also I know not everyone wants it eradicated, no assumption there, I know the individuals around here. And it was always able to be maintained infinitely in 1 form or another. However it still required more than itself to be done.

dude you are just spewing misinformation and ignorance.. -.- a monk and necro team can clear it faster maybe but they can't do it SOLO. And the fact that sins do the zones in parallel mean that they finish much faster than a monk and necro team overall >_>.

It's pathetic to see you trying to defend SF when its entirely indefensible. I guess you have a lot vested in it, eh? But I guess that's what you would call bias.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

14 Jul 2009 at 00:15 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

dude you are just spewing misinformation and ignorance.. -.- a monk and necro team can clear it faster maybe but they can't do it SOLO. And the fact that sins do the zones in parallel mean that they finish much faster than a monk and necro team overall >_>.

It's pathetic to see you trying to defend SF when its entirely indefensible. I guess you have a lot vested in it, eh? But I guess that's what you would call bias.

No the only ones spewing misinformation around here are the likes of you. Now I nowhere did I say solo for a monk or necro. And the fact that niether do sins do it solo get that through that skull. It takes a full team to do it in each section to get the fast clears like that. Ofcourse a FULL TEAM of sins will clear faster than a duo of monk/necro. Plz take your ignorance outa here.

As far as defending SF, Ill defend every damn skill there is to protect them from stupidity. So yeah I did have alot invested in the game when it was once good. But I guess your failure to figure things out makes you bias.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

14 Jul 2009 at 00:17 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Been there done that, you do realize the monk/necro team clears much faster over all than a single sin could.

So post the best times here. I asked you to compare them, not to make an unsupported statement agreeing with yourself. Here's an easier one - compare the best 2-assassin time to the best Monk/Nec time, then take into account that Mo/Ne teams were already considered overpowered in terms of SoA/SH survivability.

Quote:

Hate to break this to you also I know not everyone wants it eradicated, no assumption there

That was exactly my point. Why are you trying to argue again?

Quote:

I know the individuals around here.

Really now.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 00:22 - 167

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Ofcourse a FULL TEAM of sins will clear faster than a duo of monk/necro. Plz take your ignorance outa here.

Two assassins can solo the entire the UW in 33 minutes, which is ridiculous.

Just throwing it out there.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 00:23 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No the only ones spewing misinformation around here are the likes of you. Now I nowhere did I say solo for a monk or necro. And the fact that niether do sins do it solo get that through that skull. It takes a full team to do it in each section to get the fast clears like that. Ofcourse a FULL TEAM of sins will clear faster than a duo of monk/necro. Plz take your ignorance outa here.

As far as defending SF, Ill defend every damn skill there is to protect them from stupidity. So yeah I did have alot invested in the game when it was once good. But I guess your failure to figure things out makes you bias.

Go look at the Screenshots section of the forums, at the best times thread.

Then try to tell me that SF isn't ridiculously overpowered.

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

14 Jul 2009 at 00:28 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No the only ones spewing misinformation around here are the likes of you. Now I nowhere did I say solo for a monk or necro. And the fact that niether do sins do it solo get that through that skull. It takes a full team to do it in each section to get the fast clears like that. Ofcourse a FULL TEAM of sins will clear faster than a duo of monk/necro. Plz take your ignorance outa here.

As far as defending SF, Ill defend every damn skill there is to protect them from stupidity. So yeah I did have alot invested in the game when it was once good. But I guess your failure to figure things out makes you bias.

so what is your RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing problem? SF is broken cause it lets elite areas be cleared in under half an hour. Do you have any issues with this? Maybe? It doesn't motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing matter if it sucks in regular play cause NO ONE CARES. It only matters because it's broken as all shit when it matters.

Jesus how obtuse can you be?

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 04:22 - 170

An elite area meant to take 2..4 hours made in 6 minutes by a single profession is something to look at.

Springfield can keep it spring, but the Speed clears must be deprived of their 'Speed', so they become more or less even for all professions.

SF was a cool idea but a bad design from the beginning, either too much downside or too much wffwct, never something in the middle. Must be reworked.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

14 Jul 2009 at 05:43 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Two assassins can solo the entire the UW in 33 minutes, which is ridiculous.

Just throwing it out there.

Wrong. Full of fail and tons of BS. They cant solo the entire under world in 33 mins. Sorry to inform you. They need to skip almost 90% of the UW in order to come close to that time. Yes thats right they have to skip 90% of the UW. So much for the Entire UW like you claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Go look at the Screenshots section of the forums, at the best times thread.

Then try to tell me that SF isn't ridiculously overpowered.

I dont have to look in the SS forums. Ive put a few SS there in the farming section.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So post the best times here. I asked you to compare them, not to make an unsupported statement agreeing with yourself. Here's an easier one - compare the best 2-assassin time to the best Monk/Nec time, then take into account that Mo/Ne teams were already considered overpowered in terms of SoA/SH survivability.
That was exactly my point. Why are you trying to argue again?
Really now.

I dont have to compare the times, it is you and a few others around here that making the unsupported claims. Go do it yourself first. As Ive alrdy done it both damn ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

so what is your RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing problem? SF is broken cause it lets elite areas be cleared in under half an hour. Do you have any issues with this? Maybe? It doesn't motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing matter if it sucks in regular play cause NO ONE CARES. It only matters because it's broken as all shit when it matters.
Jesus how obtuse can you be?

NO IT DOESNT. Get it through your head. It takes a FULL TEAM and combination of other skills to do said speed runs and they are skipping 90% of it. Kinda funny how your claiming no one cares when theres plenty even on here claiming the opposite.

Tell you what let settle this once and for all. Give me a time and day, Ill load up GW and fraps, record it all and lets see the ENTIRE CLEAR as you claim in 33 mins. Grab whoever the hell you want, hell I'll provide the tomes to set there assasin up and the UW scroll. So either put up or shut up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

An elite area meant to take 2..4 hours made in 6 minutes by a single profession is something to look at.

Springfield can keep it spring, but the Speed clears must be deprived of their 'Speed', so they become more or less even for all professions.

SF was a cool idea but a bad design from the beginning, either too much downside or too much wffwct, never something in the middle. Must be reworked.

Say what. I hate to break it to you too, but after this long time if its taking your groups 2.5 hours as you claim its supposed to. WELL THEY JUST FAIL.

And Sins werent the only classes doing speed clears. Remember each class has there pros or cons otherwise you might as well just delete all but 1 class.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 05:50 - 172

Quote:

Wrong. Full of fail and tons of BS. They cant solo the entire under world in 33 mins. Sorry to inform you. They need to skip almost 90% of the UW in order to come close to that time. Yes thats right they have to skip 90% of the UW. So much for the Entire UW like you claim.

How ironic. The person calling others ignorant is being ignorant himself. Sorry to inform you, but your post is full of fail. You shouldn't take my statement so literal. Of course they didn't solo every single enemy, there's no point in that. But they solo'd every quest, which is still ridiculously retarded.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7343/33minduouw.jpg - 33 mins, sin and ele
http://ske.gwzocker.de/hayman/duouw3.jpg - 39 mins, 2 sins
http://www.imgbox.de/?img=g29111x29.jpg - 40 mins, 2 sins
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...0&d=1245674396 - 46 mins, 2 sins

And for the hell if it:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg - 1:14, 1 sin

Sorry, you were saying? Next time you wanna say someone's post is full of fail and BS, you might wanna look around a bit. It helps to make you look less like an ass. I'm so sorry that you took the statement literally.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

14 Jul 2009 at 08:12 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

How ironic. The person calling others ignorant is being ignorant himself. Sorry to inform you, but your post is full of fail. You shouldn't take my statement so literal. Of course they didn't solo every single enemy, there's no point in that. But they solo'd every quest, which is still ridiculously retarded.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7343/33minduouw.jpg - 33 mins, sin and ele
http://ske.gwzocker.de/hayman/duouw3.jpg - 39 mins, 2 sins
http://www.imgbox.de/?img=g29111x29.jpg - 40 mins, 2 sins
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...0&d=1245674396 - 46 mins, 2 sins

And for the hell if it:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg - 1:14, 1 sin

Sorry, you were saying? Next time you wanna say someone's post is full of fail and BS, you might wanna look around a bit. It helps to make you look less like an ass. I'm so sorry that you took the statement literally.

33 mins one is actually interesting. Ele instead of perma, huh?

You know what, that could have been two eles easily, because obsi/slivers terra is basically just as immortal as perma and not much slower.

Guess those guys could comfortably do it as two eles. and for some reason, i would think that duo of 600s/smiters would not fare much worse.

See, here is the damn issue: lots of UW can be easily soloed, and in team full of soloers there is no problem assigning perfect solo-counter to each subregion.

Now that idea of solo-splits is mainstream, there is no way stopping UW speed clears without redesigning area because nerfed build would simply get replaced by next-best one.

Only answer is to put there direct counters that would mess up most farming builds (energy costs, recharges, casting time, durations ...) or to make sure that group can not split but instead has to do quests one by one (by, say, having vital NPC follow party - if party splits he would end up following one soloing party member and most likely die.)

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 08:22 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

See, here is the damn issue: lots of UW can be easily soloed, and in team full of soloers there is no problem assigning perfect solo-counter to each subregion.

The ultimate idea: collectively clear UW in 15 mins by a team of 8 permasins.

Ty Arkantos for stopping this stupid part of the discussion.

The game was nerver meant to be played like that. Breaking a record once or twice is fun, perfecting a method is cool, but farming these speed objectives is ridiculous.

Look at me, I've got 3000e and I can buy an unded Island Guardian! So much for being unique, I'm not a farmer, I'm a player!

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

14 Jul 2009 at 08:47 - 175

Pve was broken long before perma sins et al came in, in a way it was always broken. Even candy canes broke PvE to some extent and that was back in 2005. To me however the tipping point came woth nightfall. Skills vastly increased in power, just to be able to allow players to 'over power' the zerged up mobs later on in the game(I wont even bother to mention how badly designed DoA is) . To help, Anet then introduced game breaking consumables and PvE skills which although useful(perhaps even essential) in areas such as DoA, allow the complete obliteration of any other area of the game.

Anet could have gone two ways(well three I guess). They could have removed cons sets, pve skills, rebalanced areas and nerfed the super power skills, They could have increased the difficulty of the other elite areas or (and this is what they did I think) is go 'To hell with balance and diffilculty levels let's give everyone, if they grind hard enough a BFG-9000so they can blast through anywhere and get their titles'

A few people(and I probably put myself in this catagory) wish they did the first option, to get back some of the balance and skills required in prophecies days. Realistically, people in general love being able to just rampage through areas with almost impunity which is why we have what we have today.

PvE, is by Anets design meant to be broken. Throw any idea of thinking, careful or balanced play out of your mind and just get with the zap-pow-splat..

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

14 Jul 2009 at 08:55 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

How ironic. The person calling others ignorant is being ignorant himself. Sorry to inform you, but your post is full of fail. You shouldn't take my statement so literal. Of course they didn't solo every single enemy, there's no point in that. But they solo'd every quest, which is still ridiculously retarded.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7343/33minduouw.jpg - 33 mins, sin and ele
http://ske.gwzocker.de/hayman/duouw3.jpg - 39 mins, 2 sins
http://www.imgbox.de/?img=g29111x29.jpg - 40 mins, 2 sins
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...0&d=1245674396 - 46 mins, 2 sins

And for the hell if it:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg - 1:14, 1 sin

Sorry, you were saying? Next time you wanna say someone's post is full of fail and BS, you might wanna look around a bit. It helps to make you look less like an ass. I'm so sorry that you took the statement literally.

Wrong again. Hate to break the news but you showed your self wrong. Notice ur own damn quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Two assassins can solo the entire the UW in 33 minutes, which is ridiculous.

Just throwing it out there.

Yet you shown 1 sin and 1 ele. Not 2 sins.

As I said try again. And the rest of your SS show exactly the overstatements

Neither are ENTIRE CLEARS like you stated. So come on, put up or shut up.

They are as I said skipping about 90% of the underworld. Plain and simple.

Fril the only thing arkantos has shown is that they did the quests and not the entire clears they are claiming. Period.

And to refresh your memories

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Two assassins can solo the entire the UW in 33 minutes, which is ridiculous.

Just throwing it out there.

NOT skipping 90% of the areas. That is a big difference. Keep trying to spin it.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 09:00 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Exactly! SF in ordinary situations are really not that great.

As a solo farm, a lot of other classes can also do the same thing with the same or higher efficiency. The only area that sin farm used to have an advantage, the chaos planes in UW, had been nerfed.

A perma in pugs is only a slightly better tank and most groups still fail because they ain't prepared for AoE scatter. Not to mention any areas with traps/signet/touch skills becomes strictly off limit to a perma tank.

As a runner, most classes have just effective an option, not to mention a 600 duo/trio can clear dungeons while perma cannot.

The fact that a perma has to use up 3 skill slots to maintain, and the fact that the energy cost is so intensive now that they need to use at least another slot for energy management means that the character can't do other stuff with much efficiency. Of course there is one exception....

The only scenario where Shadow Form can be qualified as OP is the UW/FoWSC, which does not represent the other 99% of the game. And the run is only possible because its possible to do multiple areas at the same time which allows multiple perma to substantially increase the speed. The solution is to just adjust the area, not nerfing the skill.

I guess I'll have to requote myself. Since the entire argument is revolving around the UWSC constantly, then just NERF THE AREA! All they have to do is the program in a "need all players to go past a check point" just like DoA and force all 8 players to be in the same place for the quest to trigger!

As I already said the perma build in non-speed clear situations generally become only average farmers or an uber tank for pugs. Monks and other class can out farm the perma in a lot of areas, and being a super tank only give a slight advantage to the already inferior tank n spank build. There is no need to "destroy" the skill in any manner.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:00 - 178

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Wrong again. Hate to break the news but you showed your self wrong. Notice ur own damn quote.

Yet you shown 1 sin and 1 ele. Not 2 sins.

As I said try again. And the rest of your SS show exactly the overstatements

Neither are ENTIRE CLEARS like you stated. So come on, put up or shut up.

They are as I said skipping about 90% of the underworld. Plain and simple.

Fril the only thing arkantos has shown is that they did the quests and not the entire clears they are claiming. Period.

And to refresh your memories

NOT skipping 90% of the areas. That is a big difference. Keep trying to spin it.

Why are you arguing against something that you misunderstood? No, they cannot kill every single monster in the area, you're right. However, I never meant for you to take entire clear that literally, I'm sorry you misunderstood. You're the one misunderstanding my statement and spinning it. Generally an entire clear of UW/FoW/DoA is doing all the quests. That's what most people refer to it as. Killing every single moster is pointless and a waste of time. Yes, it's a sin and an ele. I'm so sorry that I was wrong about that, not that it makes any difference.

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins/an assassin and an ele/possibly 2 eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is dumb, and shows why SF needs to be nerfed.

Quote:

I guess I'll have to requote myself. Since the entire argument is revolving around the UWSC constantly, then just NERF THE AREA! All they have to do is the program in a "need all players to go past a check point" just like DoA and force all 8 players to be in the same place for the quest to trigger!

As I already said the perma build in non-speed clear situations generally become only average farmers or an uber tank for pugs. Monks and other class can out farm the perma in a lot of areas, and being a super tank only give a slight advantage to the already inferior tank n spank build. There is no need to "destroy" the skill in any manner.

Yes, they can do that. That doesn't make it so SF isn't ridiculously overpowered, though. The fact is, a SF sin can tank a million enemies, and it can still do impressive damage. The skill is still going to be overpowered.

There is a need to destroy the skill. A single skill that allows you to become invincible against most enemies in the game should not be in the game. You might as well add a skill that makes all enemies within earshot do 0 damage.

The skill does not belong in Guild Wars.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:00 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Wrong again. Hate to break the news but you showed your self wrong. Notice ur own damn quote.

Yet you shown 1 sin and 1 ele. Not 2 sins.

As I said try again. And the rest of your SS show exactly the overstatements

Neither are ENTIRE CLEARS like you stated. So come on, put up or shut up.

They are as I said skipping about 90% of the underworld. Plain and simple.

Fril the only thing arkantos has shown is that they did the quests and not the entire clears they are claiming. Period.

And to refresh your memories

NOT skipping 90% of the areas. That is a big difference. Keep trying to spin it.

Get with the times, all the quests IS an entire clear. You're failing so hard at this thread.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:01 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Wrong again. Hate to break the news but you showed your self wrong. Notice ur own damn quote.

Don't you see the "39 mins, 2 sins", "40 mins, 2 sins" and "46 mins, 2 sins" links?

Quote:

Fril the only thing arkantos has shown is that they did the quests and not the entire clears they are claiming. Period.

10 quests out of 10 is not an entire clear? It's the one that gives you the HoM statue. No one is going to vanquish UW?

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 09:05 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Why are you arguing against something when I said you misunderstood my statement? I never meant for you to take entire clear that literally, I'm sorry you misunderstood. You're the one misunderstanding my statement and spinning it. Generally when people say clear UW/FoW/DoA, they mean they did the required quests. Killing every single moster is pointless and a waste of time. Yes, it's a sin and an ele. I'm so sorry that I was wrong about that, not that it makes any difference.

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins/an assassin and an ele/possibly 2 eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is dumb, and shows why SF needs to be nerfed.

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:10 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

As I said, the fact that this skill makes you invincible against the majority of enemies in the game makes it more than worthy for a nerf. It doesn't belong in the game. Yes, UW/FoW are designed quite poorly, but this skill is still majorly overpowered.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

14 Jul 2009 at 09:24 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Bottom line is, the fact that two assassins or eles can duo all the quests in that amount of time is a coincidence of game design, because there are no other place where multiple sin can clear much faster than a decent normal build, and shows why only Underworld and/or Fow needs to be nerfed/adjusted, not the skill.

This I can agree with. I mean, SF isn't necessarily too OP of a skill, except for the fact that there aren't enough counters to it. So, to balance it in PvE, add the counters. If that's too much work, then sorry guys, the skill's got to be nerfed.

Also: Wow, UW HM solo in 1:14 is some insane bizness...

Also, also: Manitoba is never wrong. Fo' realz.

lub yous, Manitoba! *waves*

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:27 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

This I can agree with. I mean, SF isn't necessarily too OP of a skill, except for the fact that there aren't enough counters to it. So, to balance it in PvE, add the counters. If that's too much work, then sorry guys, the skill's got to be nerfed.

Also: Wow, UW HM solo in 1:14 is some insane bizness...

Also, also: Manitoba is never wrong. Fo' realz.

lub yous, Manitoba! *waves*

So what you're telling me is a skill that makes you invincible to pretty much every enemy in the game isn't overpowered? I really don't understand how people think the skill is perfectly fine. Here's a better description:

Elite enchantment spell. For 5...18...21 seconds, you're invincible to all but a handful of enemies that aren't in the area you're farming. You deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health, but this doesn't matter because you're maintaining it anyways.

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

14 Jul 2009 at 09:33 - 185

Arkantos's point about SF underlines the point I was trying to make. Some people want to get rid of the zap, pow splat parts of PvE and return to some semblance of balance, Anet has chosen(by adding cons sets, pve skills, not re-skilling mobs and OP skills) to create a zap-pow-splat PvE game.

In a balanced, pre Gwen/Nightfall world Anet would never had let SF etc be this abused. Now it seems that, by and large they are happy for people to play the game as a shoot em up.

It's like after the earlier parts of Nightfall they just gave up and are letting things, Pve balance and gameplay wise gently wind down.
Maybe it's us the ones want rid of godmodes that are out of date..

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 09:35 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

As I said, the fact that this skill makes you invincible against the majority of enemies in the game makes it more than worthy for a nerf. It doesn't belong in the game. Yes, UW/FoW are designed quite poorly, but this skill is still majorly overpowered.

So? Being invincible doesn't really mean much unless there's something else to go with it. Its the same idea as the whole tank sucks because they don't do decent damage argument. With perma, you have 3 skill slots taken up just to maintain shadow form.

Since perma have barely any attribute points left because of 16 shadow art, the perma can't have effective dagger damage.

The other option is instead of dagger, the perma pour all the remaining points into fire magic. Guess what? since fire spells are damn expensive, the perma has to have multiple decent energy management skills in the form of glyph of lesser energy + fire attunement, which takes up another two more skill slot. This leaves the perma with only 3 skill slots to fill out with damage skills.

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:38 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Arkantos's point about SF underlines the point I was trying to make. Some people want to get rid of the zap, pow splat parts of PvE and return to some semblance of balance, Anet has chosen(by adding cons sets, pve skills, not re-skilling mobs and OP skills) to create a zap-pow-splat PvE game.

In a balanced, pre Gwen/Nightfall world Anet would never had let SF etc be this abused. Now it seems that, by and large they are happy for people to play the game as a shoot em up. Maybe it's us the ones want rid of godmodes that are out of date..

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

Sure, you could say we're out of date, but so is ANet then. They've already shown that they don;t exactly approve of what's going on by somewhat nerfing CoP. They've also said they dislike speedclears, and are looking at skills associated with it (read: shadow form).

It's simple. Get rid of shadow form, and get rid of speed clears. You still have a bunch of overpowered builds, you just can't clear elite areas in under half an hour, which is retarded anyways.

Quote:

So? Being invincible doesn't really mean much unless there's something else to go with it. Its the same idea as the whole tank sucks because they don't do decent damage argument. With perma, you have 3 skill slots taken up just to maintain shadow form.

Since perma have barely any attribute points left because of 16 shadow art, the perma can't have effective dagger damage.

The other option is instead of dagger, the perma pour all the remaining points into fire magic. Guess what? since fire spells are damn expensive, the perma has to have multiple decent energy management skills in the form of glyph of lesser energy + fire attunement, which takes up another two more skill slot. This leaves the perma with only 3 skill slots to fill out with damage skills.

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

3 skill slots to be invincible? Sounds pretty amazingly overpowered to me.

The assassin doesn't need decent dagger damage when they have silver armor, ebon battle standard of honor and by urals hammer. Also, you should probably look into this build. Just proves that a shadow form sin can have good dagger damage.

Sure, if he specs into fire magic he has 3 skills for damage. Better yet, he can spec into nothing and get silver armor, ebon battle standard of honor and by urals hammer, which is going to be effective damage.

If it has subpar damage, tell me how UWSC works. Other than vale (which requires a necro), every other sin does their own area of UW. If a single sin can do that, it's quite obvious that it has far from subpar damage.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:40 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

At the end the perma only becomes a super tank with extremely sub par damage. Without high damage the build can really only be used for solo farm, tanking, or niche boss runs. All of which are either done by other classes effectively also, or just ain't that useful.

So how do you explain the 74mins soloing of UW? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg

NOTE: it's a rhetorical question. Sliver armor+Ebon Battle is your friend.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

14 Jul 2009 at 09:48 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

3 things are potential counters to a lone SF sin.
Interrupts, Touch skills and PBAoE.

Of course the only things that can interrupt SF are from Touch skills and PBAoE. Really, that means we have 2 counters.

Touch Skills are rare and ones that are around in sufficient quantities or are dangerous are even rarer.
The AI doesn't seem to use PBAoE skills unless they'll hit more than one enemy (well, the dryder's don't use Lava Font otherwise).

Subtle things could be done though, to reduce it's effectiveness. If Rending Touch were a touch skill (not a spell), Dervs in elite areas could be given it.
Expunge enchantments is a skill I don't notice on any enemies, yet is quite capable of killing SF.
I would mention Signet of Disenchantment, but the malus on that would defang any threat the enemy who carried it would pose.

Of course, a much more obvious option would be to nerf Shadow Form itself, but people then just fall back on the next most effective option.

Farming and Speed Clears are inevitable. The most that can be done is to nerf or kill those that reach the stage of stupidity. Shadow Form will always be at that stage as long as it can be maintained with its current functionality.
I cannot think why or how ANet decided SF was a good idea when they made Factions.

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

14 Jul 2009 at 09:49 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

Sure, you could say we're out of date, but so is ANet then. They've already shown that they don;t exactly approve of what's going on by somewhat nerfing CoP. They've also said they dislike speedclears, and are looking at skills associated with it (read: shadow form).

It's simple. Get rid of shadow form, get rid of speed clears. You still have a bunch of overpowered builds, you just can't clear elite areas in under half an hour, which is retarded anyways.

Token gestures that are too little too late imho. Ursan=should never have made it out of norn territory, Cons sets, should never even been made, Cry of pain=silly skill. shadow form=even worse.

Had Anet really been against godmodes they would have acted way, way, way faster than they did in all the above cases. After all, farming and grinding is what keeps most people playing. Get rid of the ability to easily farm and you get rid of many players.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 09:58 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Honestly, I have no problem with overpowered builds in PvE. There always going to be there. The problem is, shadow form is just ridiculous. You're invincible. Get rid of it, and I really don't care too much about the other skills.

How would you feel with ANet balancing the most overpowered builds? Should they be changed in a method similar to PvP, or would it be better if they stayed as is (as long as the builds aren't gamebreaking but instead just better than rest)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Had Anet really been against godmodes they would have acted way, way, way faster than they did in all the above cases. After all, farming and grinding is what keeps most people playing. Get rid of the ability to easily farm and you get rid of many players.

You'd get rid of many *farmers*, and I'm not too sure if it's any bigger than the crowd dismayed by all the farming.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

14 Jul 2009 at 09:59 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Of course the only things that can interrupt SF are from Touch skills and PBAoE. Really, that means we have 2 counters.

Just for the sake of this not being wrong - we also have a few lovely signet interrupts. Leech Signet, for instance, is even core.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 10:08 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So how do you explain the 74mins soloing of UW? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8703/gw166g.jpg

NOTE: it's a rhetorical question. Sliver armor+Ebon Battle is your friend.

When it takes over one hour, then the time surpasses what a good guild group can do. It becomes the same category as 600/smite doing dungeon, droks run, sanctum cay run, etc. Good for showing off but unattractive to majority of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

How would you feel with ANet balancing the most overpowered builds? Should they be changed in a method similar to PvP, or would it be better if they stayed as is (as long as the builds aren't gamebreaking but instead just better than rest)?

You'd get rid of many *farmers*, and I'm not too sure if it's any bigger than the crowd dismayed by all the farming.

And frustrated pugs / non-farming sin players, just because people tend to ignore them doesn't mean they're not there. I know alot of sins in my guild that uses shadow form mainly just to tank for his heroes, because he complain of constantly spiked to death. (Ya I know Prot Spirit + Cover, but it also would mean being forced to bring an inefficient monk hero and constant microing). Pugs uses perma to get through dungeons easier and to take pressure off less than perfect monks and other random players.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Jul 2009 at 10:17 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

And frustrated pugs / non-farming sin players, just because people tend to ignore them doesn't mean they're not there. I know alot of sins in my guild that uses shadow form mainly just to tank for his heroes, because he complain of constantly spiked to death. (Ya I know Prot Spirit + Cover, but it also would mean being forced to bring an inefficient monk hero and constant microing). Pugs uses perma to get through dungeons easier and to take pressure off less than perfect monks and other random players.

If they have to rely on overpowered abilities and exploitation, then they are not good enough and they should not be seeing this content. Simple as that. If they feel the area is too tough, then they should A. revert back to Normal Mode setting or B. Try to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it, but this can be a bit difficult.

I agree partially if these players are a bit inexperienced and just want to see the area play-out. This is where I'd say that toning down the areas in Normal mode would be a good idea and the more experienced can stick in Hard Mode. But you don't make the Hard Mode the Easy mode.

I also feel that there is indeed a lot of annoyance and stress related to pug-play PvE, but this has more to do with how most of the missions are designed and thus could be fixed by fixing the *missions*, not a blanket change affecting all of PvE.

Don't know what your friend is doing wrong if he keeps getting spiked to death. I can run just fine in HM with Frenzy on my bar, it's pretty awesome. Also I'm using Sabway and *still* able to have one of my heroes bring Prot. Spirit.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

14 Jul 2009 at 10:21 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So what you're telling me is a skill that makes you invincible to pretty much every enemy in the game isn't overpowered?

...

There really isn't any way to add a counter to it for every area it's dominant in (read: every elite area). What do you expect ANet to do, add in massive PBAoE and well of the profane to each elite area? It's not going to happen.

To the first part: I'm agreeing with you for the most part. I mean, aside from the duration, it does the same thing as the PvP version - 'invincibility.' What's the answer to it in PvP? Bring counters, right? (or, perhaps wait for the duration to end) So, do that in PvE.

Again, the duration is different, and would probably be good to go ahead and shorten that back to the PvP version. Also, it looks like the other big culprit are the consumables. Maybe nerf those, as well - say, limit their use to once an hour like the summoning stones?

Like I said, the effect of the skill isn't really OP, I think. It is an elite, it decreases your damage, and it drops your health when it ends - all a good balance to the effect. Constantly maintainable? That is a bad thing for the elite areas, at least, and why I am all for putting those counters in just those areas to make it nigh impossible to do. You don't even need real skills to do this, make them monster skills/effects - a touch skill or shout that removes all enchantments but with a 120-second recharge so it doesn't affect normal play too much.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

14 Jul 2009 at 10:44 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yet you shown 1 sin and 1 ele. Not 2 sins.

When all else fails, challenge the semantics. Challenge them hard.

For reference, Monk/Necro teams doing all UW quests, on the first attempt, took slightly over three hours. The biggest difference is that the Mo/N team has to pull/blast its way through mobs that sin teams can just run by.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

UK

N/

14 Jul 2009 at 11:02 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just for the sake of this not being wrong - we also have a few lovely signet interrupts. Leech Signet, for instance, is even core.

Gah, missed signets in that list of general counters.
I was debating adding wells in too.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 11:05 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

When it takes over one hour, then the time surpasses what a good guild group can do. It becomes the same category as 600/smite doing dungeon, droks run, sanctum cay run, etc. Good for showing off but unattractive to majority of players.

You have to think bigger than this example, look at the other ones Arkantos showed: if one sin can do that, look at what two sins can do, and just imagine what it means. SF is clearly an uber-skill that removes a significant portion of the game difficulty. And if you've been in ToA recently, you know that "UWSC" refers to this exactly.

Even if PvE balance is not the same as PvP balance, this kind of skills make it so imbalanced that there's little incentive to go beyond a very tiny part of the game mechanics.

Chieftain Heavyhand

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

wpg

14 Jul 2009 at 11:37 - 199

You guys make it sound like anyone can slap on a SF build and do UW in less than an hour.

These guys who are getting these insane times have gotten this down to perfection, average players can not do this, below average players will never be able to do this.

What you guys are pointing out is what all farming builds do, use certain skills to take advantage of certain areas.

There isn't a thing in this world stopping people from forming groups to do UW or another area that do not use SF sins, 600/smite teams, 55 monks or any other build.

Because the pro sin teams don't want your profession in their party has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their team build, don't want to be a team player form your own team, why do you care what others are doing. The drops from the UW chest are junk most of the time.

The "economy" be damned it is a game not the real world your character isn't going to starve to death because the economy failed in the game. The weapons/armor you can get are no more powerful than the 1k armor or collector weapons you can get for free.

You guys are using the people who are the best at using these builds to try and make it seem like anyone can load up and get these times.

Why is PVE broken? Because you guys continue to scream for nerfs, if you would have just left well enough alone things wouldn't be so broken, but in your ego trips to prove that you know so much you broke it, and continue to break it.

What killed this game was you guys squalling for nerfs, because someone could do something only you use to be able to do.

What was it I heard, Elite areas should only be for elite players, that about sums up most people's attitude about the game. If you can't play how I do or how I think things should be done then you shouldn't be playing, well buddy that right there is what killed PUGs.

There are very few players who can get these insane finish times and you guys want to take the few to take away from the many. There are less people asking for a SF nerf than are asking for the ability to bring all hero parties along, but which group will Anet listen to, the small band of screaming grievers.

You guys talk about build diversity how can that happen when everytime a new build sticks out you guys ask to have it hammered down?

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jul 2009 at 11:48 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

Why is PVE broken? Because you guys continue to scream for nerfs, if you would have just left well enough alone things wouldn't be so broken, but in your ego trips to prove that you know so much you broke it, and continue to break it.

I don't know who you're talking to, but I can assure you that you misunderstood most of what was said here. SF doesn't require "skill", it requires a very particular timing (which can be removed completely by consumables), keeping an eye on your skill recharges, aggro and that's pretty much it. It's no longer about the "team", it's you vs the monsters, knowing these guy can do nothing against SF.

You're actually not "playing" the game, you're using an OP feature of the game to disallow monsters to be able to kill you. And you may argue that it's fun to perfect it, sure, but it's become an industry. Industrial farming. Repetitive to death. People may enjoy the illusion of power (it may be fun experiencing SF for a while), but it doesn't mean it's good!