Why I think PvE is broken.(rant)

Oh, is that all? And here I was thinking there were actually things to WORRY about while permaforming! All that stress for nothing!

The maintainability isn't in question. The usefulness is. In most of the game, SF is useless without a team backing you up, be it because of touchers, untargeted/pbAoE skills, overhealing your damage, environmental effects, signets,etc... The big QQ is UWSC. So fine, do what someone else suggested. Change nightmares Rend Enchantment to the Signet of Disenchantment. UWSC pwned. SF not further damaged.


If by "the current build" you mean the UWSC team, that IS what I was talking about. A very bad mountains spawn can add 10-15 minutes if not cause an outright fail.


In this case, it's a difference of about 20 minutes. Not that much.


But you won't surpass anything without practice. I'm still not sure the point you're trying to make here, unless it's just a general philosophical observation. MY point in saying the run is hard is that the constant QQ that any drooling moron can throw on the build and go clear UW in 15 minutes is ridiculous.

Which is exactly why people play with HB - it's (relatively)foolproof, everyone's comfortable with it, etc. even though people shouldn't be balling when they know an AoE attack's coming. Giant fireball thrown at one paper armour caster in HM and he could very well be dead without prot - no amount of healing will save the guy from a one-hit KO. Nobody's flawless - and you expect your imperfect groups to know things like 'stay back, don't ball, especially if you have crap hp?'

Of course, the foolproof issue - that's generally an issue with taking a PUG. If you're playing with friends/guildies you trust, I don't see what's stopping you from using other skills, since they're presumably better players than your average PUG. It's not like you have to HB/UA/permasin/600/smite/whatever all the time, especially if you've invested a lot of plat into getting that character a nice set of skills. (If you made the character just for farming, that's a different matter altogether, but.)

Oh yeah, and the best part is, you can easily cope with it!

Maintainability is part of its usefulness. If you can maintain borderline invincibility and that isn't part of the usefulness, then f*ck me sideways.

SF is useless without a team backing you up in most of the game? Are you kidding me?

The only mountain spawn that should cause any trouble is when there is a complete block on an area and you're thinking "yeah I can get past that". That is, unless something changed.

Your conception of a time difference is quite a lot compared to mine then.

15 minutes? After plenty of runs, knowing your shit, you'll eventually begin to be getting times like that. 20-25 minutes with a team that is pretty new at it.

Oh damn obviously you've got me there... is this the sort of crap you think makes a strong arguement? Wtf would i want to Perma in the Jade Sea or Old Ascalon anyway? Big whoop, there are SOME mobs and SOME areas the Perma isn't ideal for, or at least can't do it alone. Doesn't change the fact it can tank almost an infinite number of foes.

Yup, thats why the 7 Perma's used in a UWSC just sit there until that 1 Necro kills things for them... oh wait.

I really can't be bothered with the rest of it because you clearly have no idea wtf your on about. SF/Permasins not overpowered? Yeah and Arnold Schwarzeneggar can act.

- all the loot you get on the way to some of these foes, some of them are quite far into zones, Prophecies ones might take multiple attempts.

Wow seriously? You're like... the only person to ever play more than 1 character /sarcasm

Sure you aren't doing somet wrong? Unless you're buying elite armours and kitting out far more heroes than you need to you should be making money from characters, not losing it. At least over short periods.

Personally, I think the game is broken because of some nutheads telling you stuff like:

"Wow, you have serious energy problems!"
"If you can't manage your energy, you're a fail."

...after you've just used Rebirth which - as everyone knows (or at least you assume everyone should) - sets your energy to zero. Instead of waiting for you to regenerate (since no one wanted to take along Blood Ritual), they instantly charge into the next group and wonder why they die again. Oh yeah, and of course no one cares to destroy the Quickening Zephyr, either, no matter how often you call it.

But hey, you're the Monk, right? So it is ALWAYS your fault. *lol* Who needs Aegis, Protective Spirit or the Battle Standard of courage anyway, right?

Seriously, I'm asking you: who's the n00b?

No wonder I rather play with NPCs. At least, they treat you better and don't flame you for trying to do your job.

You went wrong here. If people are really that unreliable to you, then a different resurrection skill or another protective skill would be better.

If you think you can outheal HM with HB and no prots... then you must be living in a different world.

Usually, I'd agree.

But for Gate of Pain, that's an important skill, since there is always the chance for you to have to retreat and rez your team mates from afar (you might recall that the second Emissary is located behind a bunch of enemy groups which - if pulled incorrectly - can wipe out half of your party in no time). And as a Monk you really can't rez in the middle of battle in HM.

Anyway.

Oh yeah, and also quite amusing to watch them stubbornly stand in a Meteor Shower and the likes instead of stepping out of it. Because, hey, there are Monks to prevent you from dying, right? - And then they wonder why you keep running out of energy at some point.

The same geniuses insisted on having you equip the Lightbringer Signet (instead of having someone else bring BR along or let you equip the Glyph of Lesser Energy) although everyone knows that only works in closer range... and as a Monk you usually don't run into the group of enemies but remain in the backline (if you're smart).

Such "pro" r0xx0r 1337 players!

That'll teach you to pug ><

Similar happened when i was monking GOLEM. Our other monk decided to piss off and go afk as we started and we hasn't noticed till we began the attack. So there i am protting 1 side... only to have an ele continue to spam through Soul Leech (my remove caught another hex) and FINALLY decides to stop when he's on about 10% health. Then of course he does it again... and again... and again on every single wave with a Destroyer of Hope.

Absolutely. Without maintainability, it's COMPLETELY useless because of its maluses. But maintainability alone doesn't lead to accomplishment.


If standing at a stalemate until the servers go dark is useful....


Six behemoths all on top of each other at the top in the lower corner, and two immediately below, within range of each others' healing springs.

Well, you can work in percentages (50%) or in absolute times (20 minutes). You said that "half the time can be a lot" but it's not, its only 20 minutes.

Yes. With lots and lots of practice.

You must have a generous definition of pretty new. Most teams that are new at it are going to fail it more than they succeed.



You said:
And it is ridiculous, as is your claim that it's actually the case. What I offered are called "counter examples" and are used to make clear that you are using hyperbole to try and validate your position.


And when you have nothing left, you go back to UWSC again. We've been over this ground.


Ad hominem. Nothing offered worth considering.


Does not generally equal up to the cost of even a single cap signet.

I never claimed I was. Anyone who has will tell you it's expensive.

Nope. I'm playing the game as I want to play it. I like good looking armor (whether elite or otherwise) so buying it is not "something wrong."

There are valid uses for money besides powertrading BS. If you can't get that through your skull, then that's sad.

Yes because out of all the explorables in the game you picked ones that offer absolutely nothing to a Perma. Jade Sea? Who gives a crap. Expunge Enchantments screws over the Perma, Dark Apostasy screws over the 600. The only thing there worth 'farming' would be The Deep but frankly that place is so retarded i don't really include it as part of the game. Urgoz on the other hand, speed runners use Perma's for that. More importantly, they use it to pull mobs out of the way so they can run past because no other class can do it with such ease.
DoA? Stygian Veil, they use Glyph to stop the Choking Gas. Symbiosis/Vital to boost hp. The other few skills that get by it are reduced using Barrier and some of the ele defence skills turning it into a super tank. 99% of the game is nullified, the other 1% can be built around with ease.


Just out of interest... wtf is in Old Ascalon that can stop a Permasin? Gargoyles, Devourers, Grawl and Charr? Since when?

And we'll continue to do so until you stop being an ignorant tool by just dismissing everything about Perma because it can't do 'absolutely everything'. UWSC is its best example. Lone assassins solo'ing the majority of the quests in an endgame area in under 20 minutes? Clearly you just want to keep farming it or you have no concept of balance.

I could apply this to your entire post. 'SF isn't overpowered because i said so' is the jist of what you've said. I'm not really sure you can call 'well it can't do everything' as a reason because someone else already pointed out that statement was clueless.

Nope, quite sure it takes the edge off it though. Those caps halfway up Snake Dance? How about Maw the Mountainheart? All those caps in the Mineral Springs? How about Perdition Rock? Abaddons Mouth bonus area? Depths of Madness? Etc, etc. Tyria is notorious for bosses not spawning. It took me 2-3 hours to cap Ether Prodigy because going to the deeper spawns before you could flag heroes was suicide.

Sorry but why did you feel the need to respond to a /sarcasm tag like i was being deadly serious?

Believe it or not i do play this game and i have 1 of each profession too. My Ranger is a GWAMM and all professions have at least all non-elites of their profession. Pretty sure theres alot of unnecessary expense there.

It helps if you consider what i wrote as a whole instead of ignoring the parts that quite clearly answer what you just replied with. Theres a reason these things are called gold sinks you know. Elite armour is fair enough, if you like the look of it. But titles? Insisting overpowered farming builds are 'balanced' just because you want easy money for your titles is not a good reason.

Just a little sidenote, you don't have to be a rabid farming machine to get bored with this game. I'm not and I am getting increasingly tired of it all. And honestly, its the attitude of people. Its going the way of world of suckcraft and I'm not going down that road of horror again. I'm actually having more fun these days calling up an old friend, dusting off my dungeon siege 2, and crawling entertaining dungeons and enjoying archaic yet clever graphics from a time now forgotten. I can only hope that the fabled GW2 will breathe life back into this doomed franchise.

Tbh all I read is more QQ about SF from people that arent playing anymore, are more pvp orinated or those that moan about anything that others find fun.

ToA is one of the most active outposts, if alot of those people actually took time out from playing to come here and read/post these threads would have a different slant on them.

So I ask why is it that you want SF nerfed? The game is instanced so their playstyle doesnt affect your gaming.... Or maybe because the Ecto you horded isnt worth as much as it once was?... Or maybe your super rare weapon isnt as rare as you want it to be... Or that people are wearing your super expensive armour by the 100's.

There are Guilds out there that wont use these builds.. want to play balanced as you call it.. there are also alot more people that dont want to waste 2+hrs doing something. We all play different, we all enjoy doing different things, you dont like SF then dont use it, but ToA says that alot more people actually are having fun.

Oh and when your done QQ about SF then once again you can move onto how titles are useless and there is just TOO much grind in this game :P

I'll play with whoever I want
Besides who gave you the right to call other people morons only because they are hit by chilling victory/fireball/ice spikes... you name it
As for the Sparks... uum... are you taking a piss? Remind me if 90% of the game is covered with them? Well I don't think it is. I said HB does the job for most of the time... AND IT DOES. Besides have you heard of the new fantastic skill for Hell's? It's called... Breath of Great Dwarf. And you know what? It's not monk-exclusive! And you can even echo it... omg!!! But seriously.. stop playing stupid, please
HB+HP perfectly counters random spike on your party. Simple as that.


Did I say "Don't bring PS"? Did I? Oh did I?

Oh your trying to tell me that decent players would frequently ball up against small AoEs?

Oh god you are serious aren't you... Sparks, well simply put i was just choosing a foe with a large AoE spell, Sparks are notorius for being put before narrow bridges causing Rodgorts to wipe out your party. Thought i'd quickly go check what damage they cause on HM. Mind Burn = 126x2, Rodgorts = 261. Thats to a 60AL caster. How bad are you at monk if you think any amount of healing can safely deal with multiple Rodgorts Invocations or similar large AoE spells? Prot Spirit will stop 1 person getting spiked, i don't really care if you bring it or not, it won't stop you wiping if the entire team is balled up. Breath of the Great Dwarf wouldn't even take the edge off a spike that hard. And echo it? Learn to play monk and do your job or get teammates that aren't stupid enough to ball up. If you need people to carry echo Breath there is something very wrong with your strategy.

Not getting hit by AoE in the first place beats attempting to power heal through it. I've seen crappy monks who seem to think like you and they spam Heal Party with HB thinking that a ~120 point heal is a substitute for people not spreading out. They tend to run out of energy and fail quickly.

We've already established the basis of the argument was that HB compensates for drastically poor prot/positioning.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.

I swear to anything you call dear in this world if you post something that base against I will ban you.

It's long since been covered that such an argument has no basis when discussing design direction and purpose.

Did I really say frequently?
Random spike can happen to anyone. Period.


Blah blah... some numbers... blah... some more numbers... more blah blah... skill names... another blah blah...

Hey buddy... who told you I'm spamming HB+HP? Who told you I have HB on the skillbar? Who told you I have energy managament problems? Hmmm?
Only because I explained the OP why monks are using that combo doesn't mean I have it, does it?
Please give up on commenting my gaming strategy. And who are you to teach other people how to play? If someone wants to echo mending or rebirth that's his own business... for as long his/her set up works.

/edit
Oh yea... as for my "gaming strategy" -> me and 1 mesmer handled half of the Hells mission when others ragequit. Single monked last mission in NF with masters
But WTH would I know about monking. I'm sitting on guru half day trolling

So try saying that. You make it sound like its a common occurance.

How about you try giving off that impression then. From everything you've said you sound like a noob Monk who thinks HB+HP is the start and finish of PvE Monking. Considering i've played with Monks like that, some from my own alliance who should know better by now, i think its a fairly safe assumption to make given what you've been saying. Nice to know you ignore the facts in my post though, shows real strength of character.

Where do i send the cookie? Although considering the Risens have Strip Enchantments and without Prot a squishy is a corpse, i'm not entirely sure i should believe you for 1 second.

Summons, pulling, running back and forward, kiting, dodging.. you name it
Best PUG memories I ever had

For the cookie...
<- IGN

Yeah thats really not an explanation. And firing off some degen or something and pulling a runner is hardly 'leet monking'. Given an hour or 2 i'm sure i could solo all of HP by attacking and running away with or without a monk.

The only reason I even have a perma (in the works, I'm too lazy to actually make one and stick with it) is because I need to fill my gh. I can't garner that sort of cash any other way. I hate farming and find it boring, but how else will a make sufficient cash to do anything that costs alot?

Wait, what? You hate farming? What are you doing with your assassin, then?

Letting it sit in the char select screen, when I get the need to use it I'll finish it up and farm. I hate farming but how else will I make money? Its one of those, I hate it but I gotta do it.

Luxon faction, perhaps? Though I'm glad you've come right out and admitted you will simply pretend counterpoints to your arguments don't exist.

They can't do the mission alone. Permas in Urgoz SCs are part of a team build and they're basically just decoys.

Yes, that rare, uber-leet triple-class, 11-slot permasin.

Crown of Thorns (signets).

Apparently UWSC is the ONLY example or you wouldn't keep coming to it like some talkshow political pundit.

Pfft. I gave up on it because the effort isn't worth the reward, as far as I'm concerned. It's not particularly fun, and I can make more money per hour farming feathers, losing only the .00000001%^8[0] of getting some fancy skin out of the chest. I value a UWSC as about 4k since that's a fair average of what I get from the chest (might get an ecto, might get a crappy phantom key...)

I don't care if they nerf it, as I've said before (yet another point you pretend doesn't exist.) There are many ways to do so without rendering the skill useless everywhere else.


I could see why you would think that, since anything that goes against your preconceived groupthink notions dribbles right out your ear.

And the statement that it was clueless was clueless. "It can't do everything", with examples of things it can't do, is ENTIERLY appropriate as a response to "it can do everything."

Yes, Tyria is notorious for that. Which means, if you fight your way through the entire area every time, and through every group on the way to the area, rather than sneaking past what you can, then just fighting to the nearest boss spawn point and rezoning if it is not the right boss, is a very inefficient way of doing it. Doing it the efficient way means maybe 300g/run. Doing it the ridiculously slow way just to make back the money for the signet is slower, less efficient, and is not fun.

Because you used sarcasm in a dismissive fashion against a point I never made.

And if you prefer to grind through missions and vanquishes over and over to pay for those expenses, fair play to you. That's your prerogative. Insisting that everyone else should do it the way you do only entitles you to a stream of 4-letter words.

Mr. Pot? I have the attorney for Mr. Kettle on line 2. Something about a defamation suit...


[0] Before someone gets pedantic... No, I don't know the exact drop rates for the good skins. I chose a number suitably small to reflect the "effectively zero for the purposes of determining profitability" probability that I use.

True, look what happened when they nerfed URSAN : only lesser people played those elite area's like DOA - they didn't go balanced or try those area's - it just stopped getting played and only the very top players and guilds kept venturing there. It will be just the same if they nerf permasins, ...

I don't believe permasins are good but ursan was good in its way to get people pugging without discrimantions of builds ....

There was lots more pugging when there was the old ursan then now and when perma is nerfed there will just simply be less grouping and pugging still.

sf was a 5energy skill when factions was released, gogo wm!

I think that if they are going to keep SF in the game so that people can perma then they need to rework the elite areas so that the mobs in these areas can actually do something. THey did it once when they added the dying nightmares into UW now they need to do it again and add some signet monks and some signet messmers, or nerf it.

But in all actuality they prolly wont and they will just let people leave the game pissed with them, cause we all know that GW2 isnt coming out for a long time and when it does the same retards will run that game right into the ground just like this one.

It is not a bad thing for an elite area to be for the elite players.

Oh, I disagree, good sir! I bought this game, I'm entitled to being able to do anything! That means if I suck at the game and I was to do an elite mission, then you're damn right I'm going to!

On a serious note, this is true. You don't even have to be that good to do the 'elite' areas.

2 examples why the game got ruined right here folks.


Hate to bust your bubbles yet again, but Elite Area doesnt mean its for Elite Players. Nope simple means its a Harder than normal area.

Which is why Im so glad I left GW when I did because with Anet going about making it official that they are going to continue listening to the wrong ppl. But enjoy your dying game.

The game got ruined because of people with common sense who say elite areas are for good players? Oh okay. Pretty sure you're taking the phrase 'elite players' too seriously.

Regardless of who ANet listens to, without any new content the game is going to die. And yeah, they are listening to the wrong people. A skill that makes you invincible in most areas of the game hasn't been touched yet.

Im not the one that has taken the phrase "ELITE" to seriously. Look at all the Elite missions how they are set-up, doesnt mean they are for the "ELITE" players only like some around here try to claim. It is simple as meaning they are harder than normal.

Yet thats not a problem in and of itself with the skill. Its a problem with the area. No what ruined the game was the ppl who ran into a brick wall and instead of using there brains of stepping to the side and walking around the obstacle they whinned and cried to Anet to bash said wall down. Those are the ones that was listened too.


Yes there was need for new content, only a fool would think that wasnt needed.

That's exactly the point Arkantos and I raised, and the point you said was 'the reason the game was ruined' in your very last post. Calling for the imbalanced farming skills, the skills that 'bashed said wall down' to be removed forces people to 'us[e] there brains' rather than have it handed to them.

Get it together, sirrah.

Talk about misreading what is written, Its exactly the opposite of what you are Arkantos is arguing. Look at SF, perfect example right here and now. Instead of taking or changing 1 little teeny tiny skill ( taking the steps to walk around said Wall ) you advocate nerfing it ( bashing the wall down ). Which has been the same way for 90% of the nerfs that have been down.

Though I am glad to see that you agree ppl need to use there brains, now how about actually doing exactly that.

The biggest problem here on guru is that the vast majority on here wouldnt know real balance if it slapped them up the side of there heads.

The best thing Anet could ever do right now next to adding a bunch of new content that would need to last for the next 10 months till GW2 comes around, would be to restore that 90% of nerfed skills to the way they were. Then and only then go back after about a month when things got settled to adjust acordinly. Notice the use of adjust and not nerf.

Problem with gurus is there are a lot of people who think they know real balance but in reality dont have a clue...

edit: oh and the general attitude of the community, ie I'm entitled to whatever I want, whenever I want, and if you try to keep me out even if I suck it's elitism.

I'm an old school player, I played in the beta games but I havent been active throughout. I find Guild Wars has completely lost what it had, I can't find anyone to play with anymore and the only time i interact with other players is when farming, its all farming. To do anything decent in PvE you need some close friends or in a good close guild, but they don't seem to exist anymore and if you are in one you are very lucky.

I think you fail to see difference between building to allow you to get around the wall, and eating 500 Mario Shrooms and simply stepping over it.

SF is 1 of the best examples PvE has ever had for a skill that needs utterly destroying, not just nerfing. Similar to why Izzy completely destroyed Smiter's Boon in PvP, it simply creates a style of gameplay that should never exist. Cannot be hit by attacks and all spells fail? It has a penalty for this, its called 'you are left with ~50 health', but since it never ends the skill becomes an invincibility button with no drawbacks.

Using the word 'adjust' over 'nerf' is called optimism. They change alot of skills, some become strong, some become ok but not worth using, some become stupidly overpowered. The fact is these days it takes them 6 months just to bother to nerf the stupidly overpowered ones, getting them to buff the weaker ones could take years.

And to prove yet again why ppl like you fail.

Load up SF on ur skill bar only and go solo. Fraps it. Bring that video back here and once u show us that you have cleared even Tangle Root zone out then ill aggre with you. Remember its your claim that SF is over powered.

However as been said its a combination of skills. But now with that as the case then you have to also in your own words Utterly Destroy the Warrior class also because it is the only class that can solo 90% of the game. The you have Ranger which runs the second most farming builds.

Dude i seriously think you totally missing the point, it the point was a broad side of a barn door you hit the the next door neighbor's house, lol. We have already established it's not just one skill but rather three. And when was the last time that you have ever seen a warrior or a ranger speed clear one of these elite areas in 15 mins. or heck even be able to solo 9/10s of the game such as the perma sin can. I mean dude have you even read what the skill does, for such and such time ALLLLLLLLLLLL attacks against you fail and ALLLLLLLLL spells against you fail. WOW what a stupid skill to even add to this game to be honest, when this game is about the damage you take and ways to maybe reduce, or heal it up.

And as per everyone else arguing that these areas are not supposed to be hard that is crap cause look at them, URGOZ and the DEEP you cant even get to till you beat the game, same with DOA, THEY ARE ELITE. last time i looked at the word elite it did not say hey elite is just a tad bit harder than normal, its for people that know how to play but in this game any shmuck can do them, kind of disgusting if you ask me.

Exactly! SF in ordinary situations are really not that great.

As a solo farm, a lot of other classes can also do the same thing with the same or higher efficiency. The only area that sin farm used to have an advantage, the chaos planes in UW, had been nerfed.

A perma in pugs is only a slightly better tank and most groups still fail because they ain't prepared for AoE scatter. Not to mention any areas with traps/signet/touch skills becomes strictly off limit to a perma tank.

As a runner, most classes have just effective an option, not to mention a 600 duo/trio can clear dungeons while perma cannot.

The fact that a perma has to use up 3 skill slots to maintain, and the fact that the energy cost is so intensive now that they need to use at least another slot for energy management means that the character can't do other stuff with much efficiency. Of course there is one exception....

The only scenario where Shadow Form can be qualified as OP is the UW/FoWSC, which does not represent the other 99% of the game. And the run is only possible because its possible to do multiple areas at the same time which allows multiple perma to substantially increase the speed. The solution is to just adjust the area, not nerfing the skill.