Developer Update - July K-value Update - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

10 Jul 2009 at 01:03 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

We just had a skill update last month and it was pretty significant too. I think it is quite reasonable that there is no skill update this month.

Just chill and play the game. If you are living from skill balance to skill balance then you need to take a break.

My thoughts exactly.
I feel bad for Linsey. She is probably flooded with a qq storm

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

10 Jul 2009 at 01:06 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

My thoughts exactly.
I feel bad for Linsey. She is probably flooded with a qq storm

Tbh, I think Regina is getting the majority of the shit storm (which is weird). But still, I can't say that I blame people for being upset. There was a time when monthly updates weren't such a joke.

Michael805

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Going Out Of Business Sale [GWII]

A/W

10 Jul 2009 at 01:06 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

We just had a skill update last month and it was pretty significant too. I think it is quite reasonable that there is no skill update this month.

Just chill and play the game. If you are living from skill balance to skill balance then you need to take a break.

Living from skill balance to skill balance is really all you can do, considering they can never get all of one thing right in a balance, you must wait for the next (sometimes several) to get something changed in a decent manner.

If they would do the job right, they would have much less of a job to do.

IronSheik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Wolfenstein: Goldrush

Zombies Go Nom Nom [Nom]

N/

10 Jul 2009 at 01:13 - 44

They want more time to monitor changes...do they even read the forum they "Use to make changes"

Helix Dreadlock

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2009

Imperial Sanctum

Legendary Drunken Masters [DUI]

E/Me

10 Jul 2009 at 01:16 - 45

WTF is K-value?

<----Massive PvE'er....lol

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 01:19 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Dreadlock

WTF is K-value?

<----Massive PvE'er....lol

The rating gained or lost for each GvG/HB match. The highest you used to be able to get was a +5, now it is a +15.

Esprit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dvd Forums [DVDF]

E/

10 Jul 2009 at 01:35 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Living from skill balance to skill balance is really all you can do, considering they can never get all of one thing right in a balance, you must wait for the next (sometimes several) to get something changed in a decent manner.

If they would do the job right, they would have much less of a job to do.

Are you serious? You are NEVER going to please everyone with a skill balance. What may be good for you may be bad for 10 other players. Everyone has a opinion on what is the "correct" version of a skill.

Take the last skill balance which upped Savannah Heat to 15 energy in PvP. I am sure there were a thousand Elementalists who raised a fuss about this and just the same amount of Monks breathing a sigh of relief.

Spouting a phrase like "they can never get a skill balance right" is just a passive aggressive way of complaining and serves no purpose.

Shayne Hawke

Departed from Tyria

Join Date: May 2007

Clan Dethryche [dth]

R/

10 Jul 2009 at 01:39 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Developer Updates

This month we opted not to make any skill balance changes.

Read "Balance in GW? We're too busy faffing over GW2 right now, call us back in two months, LOL."

Quote:

Since the last skill balance was only a couple of weeks ago,

I wonder whose fault that was?

Quote:

we want to keep monitoring the changes we've already made before we adjust any more skills.

You say that like the only thing worth observing in the game are changes you made one or two months ago. Still deciding the turn the other way on Shadow Form, hm? You might also get enough players to play the game at a high enough caliber to observe real effects from changes if you made your players want to play.

Quote:

However, we have increased the K-value of rated matches in GvG and Hero Battles from 5 to 15.

Read "Champion is the only title left that may show any sign of skill or value in a player, but we pretty much don't care. We want everyone to have an easier shot at getting into Champion range so that we can truly recognize that all titles have become worthless."

Pretty much the only thing good about this update was that we were told that Wintersday in July will be back, and that wasn't even really a part of the update. Plus, we probably won't get ATs for the event, and even if we were, it would be ANet repeating the issue of not telling players about the event in adequate enough time to get into a guild soon enough and play as a member, only as a guest.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

10 Jul 2009 at 01:40 - 49

I'm increasingly less convinced that GvG meta can ever be "balanced." Everyone just copies the mAT winners mindlessly. See: corrupt necros.

Anyway regardless, what this K-Value thing is good for is encouraging the middle of the ladder. Groups that aren't good enough to get anywhere in the monthly only have rating to chase, and chasing rating in the ATs is generally a bad idea because you're so likely to get stomped by a top guild. I don't know if 15 was the right number, but increasing it will help the middle level of competition.

Helix Dreadlock

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2009

Imperial Sanctum

Legendary Drunken Masters [DUI]

E/Me

10 Jul 2009 at 01:44 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The rating gained or lost for each GvG/HB match. The highest you used to be able to get was a +5, now it is a +15.

Thanks.

What significance (sp?) does that have in HB?

Michael805

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Going Out Of Business Sale [GWII]

A/W

10 Jul 2009 at 01:47 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Are you serious? You are NEVER going to please everyone with a skill balance. What may be good for you may be bad for 10 other players. Everyone has a opinion on what is the "correct" version of a skill.

Take the last skill balance which upped Savannah Heat to 15 energy in PvP. I am sure there were a thousand Elementalists who raised a fuss about this and just the same amount of Monks breathing a sigh of relief.

Spouting a phrase like "they can never get a skill balance right" is just a passive aggressive way of complaining and serves no purpose.

But, you see, PvPers generally have a consensus on a few things that they would like done, which, for whatever reason, never get done. Obviously there are some things that we don't agree on, but there are many that we, as a collective group, do. Therefore, we can be seen as an individual, rather than a bunch of individuals. If our individual changes were put into place, those that would cry would likely be the ones severely handicapped by the update. For example, if bloodspam was toned down, which pretty much everyone agrees it should be, the only ones that would cry would be the champ point farmers... that is, until they found a new build to rely on.

PvE'ers all think they're right about all changes they want in every update, without ever really agreeing on anything. They follow a personal agenda. That's not to say personal agendas don't come into play when it comes to PvP balancing, but the sheer number of informed players filter them out. This is why PvE'ers can be counted as individuals, rather than the collective whole that is the PvP community (or the little bit that is left of it).

So, what is good for "me" is good for the game overall, and in general those who it is not good for, and just sit down in their place and cry, are just bad players that cannot adapt.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Servants of Fortuna

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 02:08 - 52

I think part of the skill balence is percieved by others (particularly by PvPers) as "the only changing portion of Guild Wars to make it stay somewhat interesting". So when there is not a skill change, that is a let down, and I can see that arguement. However, since there was just a "major" update (two whole profession changes) I really think it is too early to make a skill change for that reason. Reguardless of the "lateness" that others think... I feel that even if the update was a week prior to when it was released, I still think ANET would not have done an update. So there really isn't anything to QQ about.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

10 Jul 2009 at 02:10 - 53

Good, no dumb PvE nerfs that only serves to ruin pugs and please whiners. Sorry for the PvPers though since they won't get their monthly balance change.

As for the K-value....it'll probably lead to more whining because casuals are by far more likely to use some gimmick or cookie build. Its the same concept as random pugs in PvE barely getting by with some easier to use skills only to be bombarded by continuous QQ about the skills they use and their playing style.

Esprit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dvd Forums [DVDF]

E/

10 Jul 2009 at 02:15 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

For example, if bloodspam was toned down, which pretty much everyone agrees it should be...

So, what is good for "me" is good for the game overall...

Pretty much everyone? You have heard from tens of thousands of PvPers? Or maybe just from a couple dozen? You have inconsequential proof based on a smattering of opinions shared by the some of the more vociferous players.

When you say what is good for you is good for all, is this 'my way is the best way' mentality I referred to. And you have convinced yourself this 'way' is shared by the majority of the PvP community based on some conversations you have had with your Alliance, seen in Local chat, and maybe read on some forums, which is not even 1% of Guild Wars PvP community.

And to the poster taking Dev comments out of context and making snide comments: Analysis of skills takes time and effort, and with a reduced staff, trying to do an analysis that affects countless aspects of the game, coming up with new balances, new content, and fixing bugs takes time and effort that may in fact take more than a month or two.

Michael805

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Going Out Of Business Sale [GWII]

A/W

10 Jul 2009 at 02:34 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Pretty much everyone? You have heard from tens of thousands of PvPers? Or maybe just from a couple dozen? You have inconsequential proof based on a smattering of opinions shared by the some of the more vociferous players.

When you say what is good for you is good for all, is this 'my way is the best way' mentality I referred to. And you have convinced yourself this 'way' is shared by the majority of the PvP community based on some conversations you have had with your Alliance, seen in Local chat, and maybe read on some forums, which is not even 1% of Guild Wars PvP community.

And to the poster taking Dev comments out of context and making snide comments: Analysis of skills takes time and effort, and with a reduced staff, trying to do an analysis that affects countless aspects of the game, coming up with new balances, new content, and fixing bugs takes time and effort that may in fact take more than a month or two.

Actually, dozens is about all there is. I don't know where you get the impression that there are thousands.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

10 Jul 2009 at 02:35 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

I think part of the skill balence is percieved by others (particularly by PvPers) as "the only changing portion of Guild Wars to make it stay somewhat interesting". So when there is not a skill change, that is a let down, and I can see that arguement. However, since there was just a "major" update (two whole profession changes) I really think it is too early to make a skill change for that reason. Reguardless of the "lateness" that others think... I feel that even if the update was a week prior to when it was released, I still think ANET would not have done an update. So there really isn't anything to QQ about.

A balanced game shouldn't need skill balances, and new metas should be forming by themselves.

Skills shouldn't need to be changed, but right now, ArenaNet is terrible and decided to not balance their own game.

Quote:

How many people are seriously going to waste 5 tokens to join a tourney filled with ranked 200+ guilds... how is a new guild going to be happy to compeat with that to raise their rating? Granted, the random system is still flawed, but its better then trying to play top guilds when you are just starting out in some AT. Which BTW, you are locked into for a few hours... not very casual to me.

Rank 200+ guilds are just about as terrible as rank 1k+ guilds nowadays. There's really no difference.

By the way, you shouldn't really comment on the reading and writing abilities of others when you can't even spell and form gramatically correct sentences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

Pretty much everyone? You have heard from tens of thousands of PvPers? Or maybe just from a couple dozen? You have inconsequential proof based on a smattering of opinions shared by the some of the more vociferous players.

The PvP community is unsuprisingly very small, thanks to inadequate attention paid to the most important aspect of the game.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Servants of Fortuna

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 03:05 - 57

But how many of your ranked 1500 or 2,000 guilds know that? Even if those 200's are bad, these new guilds still see an AT filled with single digit and double digit guilds even... That would deter a lot of people from playing in them. So raising the K-Value for these guilds in random play does help them in that respect. However, does that make them a better guild and make them better players? The answer ofcoarse is no. But overall, a ladder reset maybe instore to remove some of the dead guilds out of the game. When was the last reset anyway?

And thanks for the cheep shot btw...

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

10 Jul 2009 at 03:12 - 58

The whole K-value thing... well, unless you've actually studied mathematics or engineering, you won't really understand how it works. It's not exactly a transparent thing. People can explain the effects of it. But chances are only like 2 or 3 people on this thread actually understand the math behind an ELO ranking system.
So, being a PvEer or a PvPer has nothing to do with not understanding it. It's more like XKCD, and hostile to liberal arts majors.

Zzes Tyan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2009

Florida

[Play]

D/

10 Jul 2009 at 03:20 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

Wow, thats actualy pretty awesome update.

Why?

Because they didnt break anything.

i think they did... if you lose you get -15 if you win you get ~+2

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 03:35 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

i think they did... if you lose you get -15 if you win you get ~+2

Answer me this:

What was the rating of the guy you beat and your own rating when you got a +2.

What was the rating of the guy who beat you and your own rating when you received the -15.

I haven't played yet so I don't know if it is broken or if you just don't understand that beating players who have a rating a lot lower than yours gives you little reward and losing to them gives you a massive loss. It's probably broken but no one has been specific in pointing out ratings that I have seen when people complained about this. So be more specific and share the details and we can see if it is broken or not.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

10 Jul 2009 at 03:39 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The whole K-value thing... well, unless you've actually studied mathematics or engineering, you won't really understand how it works. It's not exactly a transparent thing. People can explain the effects of it. But chances are only like 2 or 3 people on this thread actually understand the math behind an ELO ranking system.
So, being a PvEer or a PvPer has nothing to do with not understanding it. It's more like XKCD, and hostile to liberal arts majors.

What the hell?

You don't need to study mathematics or engineering - you just have to understand basic mathematical and statistical analysis, and perhaps some basic logic and understanding of differential equations. There isn't any complex analysis involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

But how many of your ranked 1500 or 2,000 guilds know that? Even if those 200's are bad, these new guilds still see an AT filled with single digit and double digit guilds even... That would deter a lot of people from playing in them. So raising the K-Value for these guilds in random play does help them in that respect. However, does that make them a better guild and make them better players? The answer ofcoarse is no. But overall, a ladder reset maybe instore to remove some of the dead guilds out of the game. When was the last reset anyway?

And thanks for the cheep shot btw...

Or, these rank 2k guilds could play a rank 200 guild ONCE and then realize "hey they're just as terrible as us" and come to the correct conclusion.

Even if you're rank 2k, if you play on ladder you'll face a rank 200 guild at least once.

pizzamonkey

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2006

Mad Town

Nice Insides [nice]

Mo/

10 Jul 2009 at 05:08 - 62

Once again a disappointing update. This one being moreso than ever. Anet's lack of caring for Guild Wars has really put me off. They only have like what.. 2 people working on the game? I really did like this game and it had so much potential but now I just don't care anymore until Anet starts caring.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

10 Jul 2009 at 06:25 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

and perhaps some basic logic and understanding of differential equations.

No differential equation or logic in ELO, it's purely analytical. For everyone's average math skill, ELO is quite complex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The whole K-value thing... well, unless you've actually studied mathematics or engineering, you won't really understand how it works. It's not exactly a transparent thing. People can explain the effects of it. But chances are only like 2 or 3 people on this thread actually understand the math behind an ELO ranking system.
So, being a PvEer or a PvPer has nothing to do with not understanding it. It's more like XKCD, and hostile to liberal arts majors.

For everyone's information and culture:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rating

And (the really complicated ones are old):
http://xkcd.com/

Short

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2009

Protectors of Fate [GoF]

N/Me

10 Jul 2009 at 06:58 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

Wow, thats actualy pretty awesome update.

Why?

Because they didnt break anything.

QFT. I will just wait until next month before they nerf everything.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

10 Jul 2009 at 07:15 - 65

Dude!
I just started reading Harry Potter!
Holy smokes Batman, that's some addictive shit!

GW?
GW was boring pre-update.
The update changed nothing.
Thus - GW is boring post-update.

Luckily there are alternatives.

niek2004

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Afk in Gh.

Old N Dirty[ym] Good Tactics[Good]

P/Rt

10 Jul 2009 at 07:30 - 66

Every month we are supposed to have a skill update, yet we did not get one again. I don't see what needs monitoring, everyone is playing the exact same build.

Every month we are supposed to have XTH, yet we did not get anything for 2 months now.

Increasing the K-value from GvG and HA matches has cost them like 5 minutes maybe.
Same pve decorations.
Same-ish pve mask.
Same pve games.

They did not put any time or resources in GW this month

Hollow Gein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Menos Espadas

N/

10 Jul 2009 at 07:51 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

Wow, thats actualy pretty awesome update.

Why?

Because they didnt break anything.

Couldn't agree more. After a little over 2 years of bad nerfs to my Rit, he's back to being fun to play. I'm just dreading the actual update. LOL

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 08:34 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Every month we are supposed to have a skill update, yet we did not get one again. I don't see what needs monitoring, everyone is playing the exact same build.

Every month we are supposed to have XTH, yet we did not get anything for 2 months now.

Increasing the K-value from GvG and HA matches has cost them like 5 minutes maybe.
Same pve decorations.
Same-ish pve mask.
Same pve games.

They did not put any time or resources in GW this month

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

Keira Nightgale

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

Gulfstream Owners Club [GS]

Rt/R

10 Jul 2009 at 09:08 - 69

so, pve is still shit

pvp : lol bloodspike and splint... wait MB eles still around. But they made the enviroment more friendly. I guess people will now call you "Sir" and offer you tea with muffins before raging out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollow Gein

Couldn't agree more. After a little over 2 years of bad nerfs to my Rit, he's back to being fun to play. I'm just dreading the actual update. LOL

Fun? Maybe. Shame is still inefficient as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO <.<

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

Effort? What effort. They simply lowered casting time and some recharge for certain skills. It takes no effort at all, just 2 minutes, considering they didn't even test the mods they made (people crashing when equipping paragon skills). You have to be blind to not notice how incompetent they are. They do not have resources, hmm okay, don't expect me to buy GW2 then, if this is the advertisement campaign they are doing.

Anon-e-mouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

@ Home

League Of Friends [LOF]

R/Mo

10 Jul 2009 at 09:19 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadchaos

To me I don't think it's too hard to process "Oh I'm in HM and I'm spamming Save Yourselves and I'm taking 0 damage. This might be a little overpowered hmmm" and to think of a balance.

I suggest you go and actually READ the skill description of [[Save Yourselves]], as if YOU are spamming it, the one thing YOU won't be doing is taking 0 damage.

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 09:32 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Effort? What effort. They simply lowered casting time and some recharge for certain skills. It takes no effort at all, just 2 minutes, considering they didn't even test the mods they made (people crashing when equipping paragon skills). You have to be blind to not notice how incompetent they are. They do not have resources, hmm okay, don't expect me to buy GW2 then, if this is the advertisement campaign they are doing.

Pretty sure it took a lot more than 2 minutes but whatever be ignorant. The effort they put in last month really doesn't matter anyway.

The fact is, PvE needs content updates in order to improve that part of the game, and PvP is in need of a large over-haul in order to improve that part. Minor skill tweakings at this point will do no good for either side of the game and we would all still be complaining that not enough was done. It takes more than 3 weeks to build new content and it takes more than 3 weeks to do a proper meta adjustment. It is a good thing to just not change anything instead of putting out a bad adjustment now or delay it a few weeks so that no one has time to test the new changes before the mAT and would have to end up trying out new builds during the tournament. Having to do that is a down-right joke and if they don't have a proper skill balance done on time, the best thing to do is not have one at all.

Keira Nightgale

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2007

Gulfstream Owners Club [GS]

Rt/R

10 Jul 2009 at 09:37 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Pretty sure it took a lot more than 2 minutes but whatever be ignorant. The effort they put in last month really doesn't matter anyway.

The fact is, PvE needs content updates in order to improve that part of the game, and PvP is in need of a large over-haul in order to improve that part. Minor skill tweakings at this point will do no good for either side of the game and we would all still be complaining that not enough was done. It takes more than 3 weeks to build new content and it takes more than 3 weeks to do a proper meta adjustment. It is a good thing to just not change anything instead of putting out a bad adjustment now or delay it a few weeks so that no one has time to test the new changes before the mAT and would have to end up trying out new builds during the tournament. Having to do that is a down-right joke and if they don't have a proper skill balance done on time, the best thing to do is not have one at all.

No no, seriously it's not a matter of being ignorant

This is last month's update

Quote:

Update - Thursday, June 18, 2009

[edit]Skill Updates
For more information on these changes, please see the Developer Updates page.
[edit]PvE and PvP
Assassin
Palm Strike: increased recharge time to 7 seconds.
Elementalist
Ether Prism: increased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Mesmer
Visions of Regret: functionality changed to: "For 10 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes take 15..45 damage whenever they use a skill and 5..50 damage if not under the effects of another Mesmer hex."
Necromancer
Lingering Curse: increased Energy cost to 15.
Suffering: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Weaken Knees: decreased duration to 1..16 seconds; decreased Health degeneration to -1..4; decreased damage to 5..10.
Ritualist
Brutal Weapon: decreased duration to 10..40 seconds.
Guided Weapon: decreased duration to 4..10 seconds.
Resilient Weapon: decreased duration to 5..15 seconds.
Signet of Binding: functionality changed to: "You lose 200..50 Health. Gain control of target spirit."
Spawning Power: increased effect on Weapon Spells to 4% per rank.
Spiritleech Aura: functionality changed to: "Skill. For 5..20 seconds, all of your spirits within earshot deal 5..20 less damage and steal 5..20 Health when they attack."
Spirit Siphon: functionality changed to: "The spirit nearest you loses all Energy. You gain 15..50% of that Energy."
Vital Weapon: decreased duration to 5..30 seconds.
Wailing Weapon: decreased duration to 3..9 seconds.
Warmonger's Weapon: decreased duration to 3..13 seconds.
Weapon of Shadow: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
Weapon of Warding: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
[edit]PvP Only
Elementalist
Savannah Heat (PvP): increased Energy cost to 15.
Paragon
"Help Me!" (PvP): functionality changed to: "For 1..10 seconds, you gain 5..50 Health and other allies' spells targeting you cast 50% faster."
[edit]PvE Only
Sunspear
Cry of Pain: functionality changed to: "Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 25...50 damage and -3..5 Health degeneration for 10 seconds."
Vampirism: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 4..14.
Ritualist
Agony: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Anguish: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; decreased Energy cost to 15; increased spirit level to 1..11.
Armor of Unfeeling: decreased Energy cost to 5. Functionality changed to: "For 10..35 seconds, your spirits takes 50% less damage and are immune to critical attacks."
Bloodsong: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Destruction: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Disenchantment: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased Energy cost to 15; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Displacement: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Dissonance: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Earthbind: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Empowerment: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Gaze of Fury: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Life: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Pain: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Preservation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Recovery: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Recuperation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Rejuvenation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..20.
Restoration: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Shadowsong: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..10.
Shelter: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Signet of Creation: increased recharge time to 30 seconds. Functionality changed to: "For 5..30 seconds, your next 1..3 Binding Rituals cast instantly."
Signet of Spirits: increased recharge time to 20 seconds. Functionality changed to: "Create three level 1..12 spirits. These spirits deal 5..30 damage with attacks. These spirits die after 60 seconds."
Soothing: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased Energy cost to 15; decreased recharge time to 45 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Union: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Wanderlust: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Weapon of Warding: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
Paragon
"Brace Yourself!": functionality changed to: "For 5..12 seconds, the next time target other ally would be knocked down, all nearby foes take 15..75 damage instead."
"Can't Touch This!": functionality changed to: "For 20 seconds, the next 1..5 touch skills used against allies within earshot fail."
"Fall Back!": decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"Find Their Weakness!": functionality changed to: "For 5..20 seconds, the next time target ally attacks, that ally also inflicts a Deep Wound and does 5..50 additional damage for 5..20 seconds."
"Go for the Eyes!": decreased recharge time to 0 seconds; increased chance to land a critical hit to 30..100%.
"Help Me!": decreased recharge time to 10 seconds. Functionality changed to: "For 1..10 seconds, you gain 15..90 Health and other allies' spells targeting you cast 50% faster."
"Incoming!": decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"Never Give Up!": decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
"Never Surrender!": decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
"Stand Your Ground!": decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"We Shall Return!": increased Energy cost to 25; increased recharge time to 30 seconds. Functionality changed to: "All party members in earshot are resurrected with 25..50% Health and 5..20% Energy."
Anthem of Disruption: decreased casting time to 1 second.
Bladeturn Refrain: functionality changed to: "For 20 seconds, target non-spirit ally has a 5..20% chance to block incoming attacks. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally."
Blazing Finale: increased Burning duration to 1..7 seconds.
Defensive Anthem: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Signet of Return: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

There was no hyper thinkering around it. They just changed numbers in most cases, something that can be done in what? 10 minutes?. Consider that most of the suggestions have been given for months by players (even on this forum) and even then they managed to fill it with bugs. In fact this is the bug list

Quote:

Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused Signet of Creation to affect non-Binding Ritual spells.
Fixed a bug that prevented Signet of Creation from applying to certain Binding Rituals.
Fixed a bug that prevented the Junundu skill Choking Breath from interrupting some enemies.
Updated Soothing, Vampirism, and Preservation to use the correct casting animations.

[edit]Update - Monday, June 22

[edit]Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused Xinrae's Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, and Weapon of Remedy to heal the caster rather than the target.
Fixed a bug that caused Spirit Siphon to appear twice on the skill list when interacting with a Priest of Balthazar.
Fixed a bug that prevented the Guild Versus Guild Zaishen Combat Quest from properly updating.

[edit]Update - Friday, June 19

[edit]Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused "We Shall Return!" to bypass Frozen Soil.
Fixed a bug that caused the Flux Matrix to damage party members.
Fixed a crash bug associated with "Brace Yourself!"
Fixed a bug that caused Order of the Vampire to give stolen health to the caster rather than the party member that was attacking.
Fixed the recharge time on Signet of Spirits by increasing it to the intended 20 seconds.
Fixed a bug when using Signet of Binding that prevented a spirit's defensive effects from applying properly.
Fixed a bug that prevented some players from turning in their Random Arena Zaishen Combat quests.
Updated the inaccurate descriptions for Well of Blood, Well of Power, Well of Suffering, Well of the Profane, and "Incoming!" (PvP).

[edit] Update 2 - Thursday, June 18, 2009

[edit] Bug Fix
Fixed a bug with Hero and NPC AI which would prevent them from effectively utilizing minion skills.
[edit] GuildWiki notes
After this update, many players are experiencing frequent lag spike.

You don't need some insight on Management, even a customer like us can notice the lack of resources and of a dedicated team.

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Jul 2009 at 11:48 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

It's sad that the community fails to understand the actual complexity of skill balancing.

- Sure thing. If it's so demanding job, why not spend the resources on things that actually improve the game rather than fiddling around with skill balance? You know, ability to record matches, UI changes, rewind-fast-forward buttons to observe, ability to see who's watching? All the small things that are so common in other games that you don't even notice.

niek2004

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Afk in Gh.

Old N Dirty[ym] Good Tactics[Good]

P/Rt

10 Jul 2009 at 11:56 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

The way I see it, there are only 3 viable builds in GvG right now:
- Dual Paragon midline(barely sees any play at all).
- Mind blast ele/dom mes + FC corrupt with barbs midline.(90%)
- Hexes

Small changes such as:
- Nerf MB
- Nerf Corrupt
- Nerf Rip
- Nerf patient
- Bring back aegis, so teams will need shutdown again.(Right now everything has stances, and every teams needs at least one copy of Whirling.)

Would have done this game some good. It wouldn't be the perfect solution but it would have been better then the current meta.
-

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

-why not spend the resources on things that actually improve the game rather than fiddling around with skill balance? You know, ability to record matches, UI changes, rewind-fast-forward buttons to observe, ability to see who's watching? All the small things that are so common in other games that you don't even notice.

Why would you even want to obs when everyone is playing the exact same build, because there are no skill updates?

aapo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Jul 2009 at 12:34 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Why would you even want to obs when everyone is playing the exact same build, because there are no skill updates?

- And the million dollar question: Why is everyone playing the same build? Might it possibly have something to do with the effed up "skill balance" updates we've been having? One might even think that they're spoon-feeding us the next month's metagame when they buff select few skills without concern of big picture. If you want diverse builds, have diverse objectives. This is the job of a developer, not a skill balancer.

Ghost Omel

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

----//---//---//-----//----

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 12:46 - 76

.... So no need for people to change builds for another 2 or so month?....Well it cant get anny better right.... migh as well suck it up for next 2 month and adapt -_-

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

10 Jul 2009 at 13:09 - 77

I am just glad that anet actually told us why they decided not to do skill update.

Also glad to see that wintersday in july announcement is up on the GW site a FULL WEEK ahead of the event!!!

Still waiting for the content update announcement though

Axel Zinfandel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2007

Northeastern Ohio

LaZy

P/W

10 Jul 2009 at 15:18 - 78

I don't care that they didn't skill update this month. That's fine, because They made a HUGE one last time and made an entire class playable again. awesome.

However I would REALLY like them to fix a lot of the bugs still around, namely Signet of Spirits, which has great potential but is crappy right now

Ec]-[oMaN

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Toronto, Ont.

[DT][pT][jT][Grim][Nion]

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 15:50 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

The way I see it, there are only 3 viable builds in GvG right now:
- Dual Paragon midline(barely sees any play at all).
- Mind blast ele/dom mes + FC corrupt with barbs midline.(90%)
- Hexes

I've seen more than that being played;
Balanced
2xwar, ranger, mindshock, mirror spike
dual or even triple ele builds
4 warrior builds

The meta is prime for the taking, can't really blame the skill updates this time around. You can overload on so many different play styles currently in the meta because there is no caster shutdown, hardly any anti melee skills/builds out there, blame the current players for not wanting or trying to run different things. Compared to a month to 2 months ago there is a whole lot more build variety already. I'd say they are all pretty viable.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Servants of Fortuna

W/

10 Jul 2009 at 17:00 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

The meta is prime for the taking, can't really blame the skill updates this time around. You can overload on so many different play styles currently in the meta because there is no caster shutdown, hardly any anti melee skills/builds out there, blame the current players for not wanting or trying to run different things. Compared to a month to 2 months ago there is a whole lot more build variety already. I'd say they are all pretty viable.

/agree, there is a lot more variety in the number of builds now. However... in a different since, you can look at it as, 2 Wars, 3 eles and 3 monks, or 4-5 Wars and 3 Monks... kinda profession stacked if you ask me and only a 1/3 of all the professions in the game are being used for 8 slots... So in that respect, some builds lack variety internally. So does that mean those 3 professions are "over powered" verses the other 7?

Dont forget the fact that...

Sins: Sin Splits (Rare), Omega Spike (somewhat seen)
Rits: Flagers (odd role)
Para: Used, but not really seen too much
Dervs: rarely used except for conditional spread...

Interesting how all the add on professions are not really used for GvG... but yet the power creep from the 2 games they came from, increased the original professions "power". So does that mean new skills should be produced for the "add on" 4 professions to make them more balenced to the original profs?