Why XTH should remain broken

XTH was originally conceived to give PvP players a decent cash flow, correct? It takes plat to create guilds/invite members/purchase and kit out your GH/just buy the things you need/want. Sure, many of them are also PvE, and can, yanno, just pve, but shouldn't have to in order to obtain money.

What reason, beyond "omg that bitch has more plat/fancier weapons/better armor than I do!" do you have for making they keys non-tradeable?

You're essentially moving already existing money around between players, it's not 'new gold' being created. I have 12 keys from XTH/PvP/whatever, someone has 48k, we make the trade. That 48k already existed, it wasn't just pulled from someone's arse O_O

I like your point and agree with you Tara, yes it would be upsetting to have bought accounts for this purpose and then have it taken away. This would be a point that would need to be addressed if a solution is to ever come. I guess it is legal within the rules and people shouldn't be punished for it. But as you also say it should be removed to preserve integrity.. assuming integrity is an issue among ArenaNet and the community

Thank you for being civil in your discussion.

Well It seems to me that you don't like players to have fun, this is a Game and it should be taken as a game.

My personal opinion is live and let live and not only in games but also in real life.

I think you are a bit envious and don't like others to have fun, especially when you say: If you don't like farming, trading, or earning titles. Why are you playing this game? Not everybody care about that, personally, I just play the game I don't farm, trade or care about title!

I wonder why are you play GW?
If you like statistics so much, please do them but for something really worth it! You just upset me and I really couldn't avoid to answer back to your post!

/Angelica

I have 1 account and all I am seeing is you wanna take away my enjoyment in getting to open the chest for free a few times every month just to spite the players with more accounts/more money than you. You apparently want to hurt everyone as part of your little campaign. And also more accounts=more money for ANet= more development, more updates, sooner GW2 (in theory) So no I do not think that getting rid of XTH is a good idea. If you care so deeply about what other players have then perhaps you should go play a single player game where you are the best person in the world. Have a fine day.

Like i said before... peoples precised reason for me posting up this argument doesn't matter.... My point is still valid about the integrity of the game... if i was really that envious. I am an accountant if i was really that envious i could afford buy 10 accounts to and not say anything like everyone else. It seems like to me to many people like getting free money and know its very similar Real world money trading. So the personal attacks flow to try get me to shut up. There is only been one valid defense that XTH should not be taken down. And that for the minority that has already thrown there money into accounts for playing within the rules. even if its not guaranteed by ArenaNet.

I have yet one person to disagree with me that XTH = Real World Trading, just a bunch of people not liking what i am saying, and trying to make since of "why oh why would this person complain about free money".

Should change the name of the thread to "Why does Mireles not like XTH, taking all irrational guesses"

Ok yes everything everyone says about me is true, now can we get back to talking bout XTH.

Your entire arguement is based on Wealth having an effect on skill level, i.e by having more Wealth you can buy all the titles that would otherwise take skill to achieve.

Now seeing as none of these titles actually do take any skill to achieve, most of your arguement crashes. I don't know anyone who thinks a person with GWAMM must be a very skillful player. Most of the titles that can be bought only require time, not skill. These are two very, very different things that shouldn't be confused.

The only PvE titles that I would say require any skill are things such as Vanquisher or completing all the missions/dungeons in HM and these are the titles which cannot be bought (well, only for absurd amounts of money). These are not respected titles and while probably requiring the most skill out of any of the PvE titles, they still require very little.

All of the PvE titles are purely for self-satisfaction, no one cares about your GWAMM, no one thinks you must be good because of it. It's all about self-satisfaction, you know you worked for it. If you bought it, it makes no difference to me, I don't care, I still worked for mine, I still gain the same satisfaction for getting it.

There is no advantage created by having access to a large cash flow, the only thing you will be able to gain is some titles no one cares about and some items that look nice, this is not an advantage over other players.

However saying that, no I don't think people should have such easy access to such large amounts of money. Not for skill vs time reasons but rather just for general economic reasons. It's bad for the economy, it drives prices up as gold becomes more abundant and so then the people without such abundant wealth suffer.

Remove the option to turn Tournament Points into Z-Keys + Remove Golden Flames.

g'day.

This has to be one of the most selfish thread I have ever seen in this forum. Since most people own multiple account then they should get to enjoy what they have spent money on, not let the minority QQ people control this game.

If XTH is down, there will be another thread to remove Nick's gifts next. After that there will be another thread to remove mini pets like Kuunavang and magazines pets. Then there will be another thread to remove birthday presents as well. If ANet removes XTH and no one creates those other QQ threads, I will, one way or another.

ANet is not a charity organization, if you want to support them, then you SHOULD buy more accounts. ANet should support those customers who support them the most. Not disappoint the majority of their customers just to please the minority QQ people who are too cheap to even support ANet's efforts.

Totally BS.

isnt this ironic considering WoW, a game based on length of time played, has a "pro" circuit complete with 100,000 $ tournaments?

anet failed miserably by letting the competitive pvp side die. at the least they should have pushed for major competitions at the MAJOR E-sports events (CPL, ESL, WCG, etc).

Unfortunately for everyone, they didn't.

hopefully they've learnt from that mistake and things will be different in GW2.

Daesu

who said anything about supporting Anet..... so you agree with me when i say buying accounts for XTH = Real World Trading? you just don't believe its wrong or hypocritical of Anet? because its helping them?

If thats the case yes XTH support Anet,but i don't believe it is good for the games integrity.

Its the fastest way for Anet to make money without having to do any actual work on new content. If they didn't make so much money off this... they might be working on Guild Wars 2 to make money that way.

It seems like to me that the resources used on guild wars were drastically cut back, maybe because they were making money off accounts and new services without having to put in any resources. I mean they haven't even fixed XTH a month after the epic fail of point distribution.

if you want to support Anet for doing this that is your own prerogative.

I think it would be hypocritical of ANet to discontinue XTH knowing that so many people have bought new accounts, due to the fact that ANet did advertise such a service on their web site.

The game integrity that you "dream" in your head is definitely not the picture of integrity I have of the current game ever since Factions campaign. Think about people getting 100K+ectos for Kunnavang mini pets if they pay more money for Collector's Edition. Think about those people who got more birthday mini pets because they bought more character slots. Think about Nick's gifts that limits it to 5/account/week which are still tradable for gold, etc. etc.

I think you sorely misunderstood GW, and its designs and directions.

That is YOUR point of view. I can also say that without this extra income, there may not even be a GW2 in the first place! This is especially so since there has not been a new campaign ever since EOTN. How are they getting the money to support such a large team to work on an ambitious project like GW2, over that many years?

As long you didnt violate the TOS, break the law, kill somebody, etc. to make money. That sounds pretty right to me.

I'd like to bring more attention to this post.


Counter-argument?

What kind of argument is "anet is doing real money trade"?
No shit, sherlock. It's their game. You do real money trade for character slots, the campaigns, collector's minis, /bonus items, bonus mission pack, and all those things.

Did it ever occur to you that, durrr, OBVIOUSLY they want the real money trade so they gain profit???
In fact, don't ALL businesses want players to buy things that would profit THEM?

And if your counter-argument is that it's not fair, well, then I guess I can agree. Life isn't fair.


Are you some sort of troll, or are you so thick you miss the point?

Daseu.

ok we can speculate to whats goin on in Anet all day, but neither of us can be sure were correct.

and it isnt my "dream" ArenaNet has always taken a stance against Real world trading they still do now. and if you look on your guild wars box under the ESRP rating. it says "game experience may change during online play" they don't have to do anything.

I think it is best you heed your own advice on speculating what GW "game integrity" is suppose to be. I simply infer from the huge number of factual examples from GW history to support my points, unlike your dreamy "GW game integirity is suppose to be like this...blah blah..." plucking from the thin air.

But you totally misunderstood the underlying reasons why they are against that. It is afterall, ANet's game, not the gold seller's. If the gold sellers mess up the game economy then ANet would have to clean that up somehow. But if it is ANet that tinkers with GW's economy through selling stuff that you can trade in-game and buy using real money, then they should know how to clean up after themselves because it is their game and their code.

ANet has the legal right to benefit from their own work, gold sellers on the other hand, violate the ToS and only seeks to benefit from someone else's work, by earning real money from someone's game.

Yeah right, like fold their arms and shut down the game servers?

Website polls aren't accurate. People who are more enthusiastic about GW self select when they come to this site. I doubt casual players would even bother to make a login to post in a poll.

Yeah, I covered that on page 2 all ready.

lol, they could. They could decide to sell off all the guild wars serves and shut down the program and there is not anything anyone can do about it. I doubt it thou.... and i haven't said anything that ArenaNet hasn't said about real world trading in the past.

I don't really see it as a big problem myself and I'm not a 10 account holder. Most of the titles that it affects are (to me, only my opinion) a joke anyhow. The titles that do mean a bit more than nothing can't be bought by gold unless you are using that gold to have someone else run you through the titles.

Weapon and armor vendor items haven't changed too much. Mats can still be farmed like they were farmed before. Runes can still be had by normal game playing. A 15k set of armor can still be had by completing the quests/missions of Nightfall and vendoring items. Fissure armor can still be had by farming the ecto and shards in FoW/UW. Heck, you can even play most of the game without runes or even max armor. I have a rit that played all of Factions with no problem (much of it henchman, with a few exceptions) before realizing I never upgraded her armor past Seitung. Shes even played through much of Nightfall, and I made the point to specifically not upgrade her armor at this point lol.

It only hurts e-peen. Well, that e-peen I've noticed in this game as well as games like WoW is usually had by people that sink tons and tons of hours into the game anyhow. For the rest of us that play the game as a game the e-peen isn't quite as important. BTW< sinking tons and tons of hours into a game is no more prestigious than sinking money into a game. It doesn't mean you're good or bad. It merely means you brute forced it where others had to limited their time in-game.

Is it RMT? Sure, why not. EVE Online decided to do something similar as well concerning their time cards and being able to sell them in-game for isk.

Now, the real question, considering everything I've outlined above is.. does it inherently bring a shitload of extra gold into the game causing inflation? No, I don't think so. The issue was brought up in EVE as well and there's a parallel. I'll explain it.

It really depends on how most of the people are getting rich from the XTH. If they are selling the items they get (really nice shit for example) to other players then no money is entering into the game from those items. Money is simply transferring hands from player to player. All of the non-high-end items they get from the chests have to be used, sold to other players for cheap, or vendored (or salvaged I suppose). Most items you get from those chest will vendor for at most a few hundred gold. The only exceptions are the z-keys themselves.

Now, that leaves us with z-keys. I have never checked, but can z-keys be vendored. If they can be, are they a considerable amount of cash? If not, then they can only reasonably be sold to other players (which I've established does not insert money into the economy, only moves it) or used at the z-chest.

A person with 10 accounts vendoring the golds he/she might get from the keys from XTH for those accounts once a month, I don't believe, is going to produce a whole lot of extra gold in the game. A person with 10 accounts selling the items to other players is going to introduce 0 (zero) gold to the game from those items. The only amount of gold entered into the game via the XTH is for items that the players vendor. I don't know how much z-keys vendor for or even whether people are even considering vendoring them. I would imagine someone would only vendor z-keys if they are actually worth more to the vendor than to other players. This means XTH only causes a minor influx of extra gold for those extra accounts (probably quite a bit for ALL accounts, but negligible for the 1% inde mentioned that may be the extras).

Now, for those saying that it does introduce a shitload new currency because z-keys, ectos, etc are the currency being used - well those are all artificially translated as currency by the players. I, for one, see no reason why a player-created currency should be controlled or protected by ANet. If players created the currency then it should surely be able to rise or fall based upon what the players do - even if it means buying a shitload of accounts and flooding the market with z-keys). The stuff that new players (whom some of you seem to be wanting to protect) will need to (I say need loosely since everything can be had at a stable price - skills, armor, weapons - or via drops during the normal course of play) are bought with gold. Vendors do NOT take z-keys or ectos for payment. Gold, pure and simple, is the in-game currency. I do not believe that it is being created at some exponential rate due to people with 10+ accounts via the XTH. It may be being created faster than previously due to ALL accounts using the XTH and vendor items, but I suspect its still slower than other means in the game.

Gold inflation (mudflation - look it up) is pretty common in online games. Very few games fix or even know how to fix it.

Now, having said that - I've also played since the beginning. I've seen gold/plat as the currency, ectos as the high end currency (followed by shards as well), I think the rubies/diamonds were for a bit, the obsidian things, armbraces, and now z-keys. The biggest two have always been ectos and z-keys. They are artificial currencies, and quite frankly I don't care what happens to them except that I disagree with any type of protection scheme. The people that hold their value in alternate currencies take a risk. It's an inherent risk that those items may become close to worthless. That's the risk in hoarding anything, anywhere.

So, can someone provide a better answer on how much z-keys vendor for? I don't have any on me currently.

to recap in nice a nice little list:
1) titles - most titles affected by money most people here don't care enough about to protect
2) statically priced items (armor, weapons) - aren't affected
3) dynamically priced items (runes, mats) - can be had in the exact same manner at the exact same rate as when the game first came out (save for any rate tweaks ANet has made) while playing the game
4) 15k armor - well, I know you can make enough playing through nightfall via quests/missions/vendoring drops and that you can't make enough that way via prophecies in most cases, but that's no different than when they first came out.
5) fissure armor- can be had just as easily (not to easy/quickly) as when the game first came out by farming UW/FoW the way they made it
6) influx of gold into the game - no proof that there's a considerably amount unless its pretty common that people are vendoring z-keys in large amounts. I don't believe the chest items will create any more gold than farming, probably much much less - even with 10 accounts
7) at the most it seems maybe XTH allows in-game currency (primarily player-created currencies) to change hands from the old school rich folks (whether by working towards it farming, smart trading, buying ectos at 250g, exploits, ebay, whatever0 to the new rich folks (those that played the XTH heavily with multiple accounts)
8) changing the XTH now or punishing those with multiple accounts is similar to protectionism for those rich folks with alternate currencies
9) most likely none of this affects new players since everything can be had just like it was had when the game first came out
10) people are playing the game under ANet's rules, just as people that buy low/sell high play the game by ANet's rules
11) a person can literally create a pvp character and play towards the pvp daily non-stop while others may have to quit/go to work/go to school/have sex/etc, buying z-keys with the rewards they get, which is no better or no worse than someone gaming the XTH - they could even do that in PvE with multipe characters. In this case, brute forcing something because you have all the time in the world is not the same as accomplishing something because of some skill, which in my mind puts it in the same realm as buying it - just buying it with time instead of cash. Most of the buyable titles fit into this category.

and yeah, I always write long posts...

You Assume too much with this statement:
"Arena net objective for producing this game was to make a game based on skill... not on length of time played... I'd hope that how much money your willing to spend would not matter either."

Do you truly think the objective of the investors was not to make money?
I want some of what your taking, so i can live in lala land too

I can understand that point but monthly secondary currency on a monthly basis... i think thats going a little far.

And of course life isnt fair... one its a game.. and two that doesn't mean we should just accept everything the way it is.

Wrong! They cannot do that. They cannot sell you a game that needs to connect to their servers, and then purposefully shutdown their servers and run away from the law.

If they run into technical glitch and need to repair their servers, that is fine. But if it is proven that they purposefully shutdown their servers to swindle their customers then they can be charged in court.

oh and keep this in mind concerning RMT. Almost every online game publisher out there is against third party RMT. First, they don't get the money. Second, because they don't get the money it's against the rules. Third, since its against the rules, its shady and the players are not protected, hence open to being scammed, ripped off, defrauded, etc - which hurts the game and the company.

Some companies have changed their stance on 1st party RMT, whether direct (Runes of Magic) or indrect (EVE Online) since they have control over it and can make sure nobody is being defrauded since it comes from them). I think ANet at one time was in the group that was vehemently opposed to third party RMT, and mostly opposed to first party RMT. Now I think, as with everyone else it seems, they are leaning towards the group - vehemently opposed to third party RMT but supports first party indirect RMT. Who knows, maybe they'll even go first party direct eventually. RMT isn't bad, so long as it is done right. It is a balancing force against people that can put in 20+ hours a day every day.

What point? You are trying to say that people making more in game gold by buying accounts to get more keys out of the XTH is the same thing as buying gold online from an outside supplier. Your point is wrong. They are two completely different things.

People are buying another account and using a feature in game in order to make some extra cash for no effort other than the real money they put into the deal. To you that sounds like people are just buying gold from a gold seller right? Well it is different because they are buying accounts from Anet, not gold from Bob or Joe. Anet made the game, and therefore are entitled to make a profit on this game using whatever means they legally can. Bob and Joe are exploiting Anets game to gain profit off of something they did not create and do not own. Anet is selling you something they own (more like renting you) while Bob and Joe are trying to sell you something that is owned by Anet. They are two completely different things.

I can sell you my car, but I can't sell you my neighbors car. I'm still selling a car right? Technically it is the same thing, the difference being I have a legal right to one, and not toward the other.

So you can go ahead and believe it is unfair as much as you want, but the fact is it isn't. It is fair business and Anet has every right to continue it.

Wait, what gave you the impression that it would never be removed or altered? Did ArenaNet state this somewhere? Or, like any other feature of the game is it possible that it might be changed or removed at some point, and indeed very likely be altered if ArenaNet sees it as a problem or somehow unbalancing the game? This game does change, in fairly minor ways, on a fairly regular basis... attribute refund points anyone? What made you think the XTH was somehow exempt from this?


I'm not sure the XTH predictions was conceived as a way to help PvP'ers earn cash, quite unlikely really, considering how anyone can use it, and with no knowledge or skill make a decent amount of Zkeys...

The whole "Moving money about between players" and not magically 'creating' wealth argument is a good one, I like it, it's also EXACTLY what happens when you buy money from the gold sellers (RMT)... they don't make the gold 'magically' appear in your inventory either, nope, they farm it with bots, scam it, or steal accounts and rape them to get it... no mystical wealth creation involved there either, and it's seemingly irrelevant to the OP's point. The point is 'free money' being paid for with real world cash. Seems the XTH and RMT do have a lot in common, except the RMTs are never 'down for repairs'.

A final note, for those people who are opposed to Tournament Reward Points being turned into Zkeys, or Zkeys being tradable in general... I disagree with you.

Tournament Reward Points EARNED by competing in the automated tournaments are a fair and reasonable source of income for PvP'ers, as are Zkeys purchased with Balthazar faction. I wouldn't even think of removing those from the game.

The points 'earned' by making predictions with the XTH and the zkeys associated with those points are a very different matter. Perhaps the XTH should just pay non-tradable Zkeys and leave the reward points to people who actually earned them?

Alright I'm done for today... yeah a lot of people have distaste for me putting this up... but most of the ppl even the people that distaste me say "yes its real world trading". Opinions say yes its ok or no its not ok, are of course going to be separated always. People think it is ok because it is Anet's game, and i think its wrong for the same reason.

Thanks for everyone that had input on the argument itself...

People that have distaste for me putting this up can keep on not liking me, i just hope they will make their own points clear instead of just attacking me, assuming they have any.

I hate to point this out but ArenaNet claims to ban 5,000 RMT accounts a week. That's 5,000 new accounts they'll have to purchase. Say they get it for $30 a pop. $15,000 a week from RMT companies isn't so bad. That's almost 1 million a year in profit.

lol and what law is this (book, article number, and section number please)? or u just assuming because it wouldn't be fair. They own the servers the right to use them is not guaranteed... just like they can take your account away for breaking the rules ven thou u got the game 3 days before that.

Read the EULA all accounts, in game items, characters, and game servers are property of ArenaNet you have no rights or claim to it

It is a game. It does not have integrity. Stop thinking this means something. It is a GAME. If the in game (ie FAKE) accomplishments of someone floor you because you think they were achieved unfairly, stop posting in this forum and get counseling.

Also, if you think the poll is representative of the entire guild wars community, take a statistics course from your local community college.

Until then, let others enjoy the fun of predicting the tournaments. I know it has me a lot more interested in PvP than I used to be.

That 5,000 account is probably not worth it considering the amount of damage they can do to the game with that number of accounts.

These people probably earn more than they invested on accounts, otherwise it wouldn't be a profitable business for them. These are money ANet could have earned from us by selling us in-game goods and services in their online store.

Furthermore, gold sellers dont need to care about damaging the game economy so they dont need to invest efforts on cleaning it up. ANet does, so it is also an extra cost on ANet for money that goes into someone else's pockets.

Lol! Sure, if you say that is legal for them to not provide game service why dont you do the same. Make your own game that does nothing because you have no game servers. Try it and tell us if you become rich in the process. Maybe you are the first human to discover this exploit to being a millionaire!

heh, let me introduce you to Steel Battalion: Line of Contact, Fury, Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Earth and Beyond, Hellgate London with a Founder's Subscription, Jumpgate (not Jumpgate: Evolution), etc etc

Many of these games, not only did you have to buy the game (aka Guild Wars), but you also had to subscribe. Buying a lifetime sub or subscriptions in 6-month blocks didn't stop them either. Fury was closest to GW with an optional subscription. Hellgate:London basically screwed al of the western lifeimte subscribers while those payers in the East still get to play (all the while blocking western subscribers that actually paid for the game from playing over there). Steel Battalion: Line of Contact was an online-only game that you can't play anymore (expansion, rather).

You should read the EULA sometime, even the box. If you believe that it wouldn't stand up in court (it may or may not as several EULAs have actually been thrown out), then YOU can be the one to hire the lawyers to test it if it happens. You may actually have a chance. Until then, it's just talk and many companies have gotten away with worse based on the gamble that it is just talk. A EULA has always stood up to scrutiny when those that scrutinized it never bothered to challenge it in court. IANAL but it doesn't feel like a challenge to ANet taking down their servers would stand anywhere.

Read the EULA all accounts, in game items, characters, and game servers are property of ArenaNet you have no rights or claim to it. you dont own anything so you can sue for it.

I realize some of you haven't been following MMO's for very long. For many this is probably their first... many MMO's have been shut down. And subscription based ones at that. There's nothing illegal about it.

yeah it could be illegal but theirs nothing explicitly making illegal.

Go for it! Now you have discovered the path to richness! Lol! If you are so sure it is legal for them to do that, why dont you do the same? Afterall your "game" doesn't need to actually work since you have no game servers.

Since you keep arguing with me that it is legal, you shouldn't be afraid of getting sued for fraud right?

A EULA is not the law and game companies dont legislate.

lol, as always you make a good point Inde :-)

By doing so in this manner they still limit any liability or perception that they're part of the problem. I imagine its much easier than the customer service problems that would arise should third party RMT become more common practice (read: acceptable) and pissed off people turn to ArenaNet to fix it..

In the end, though, you are right. ArenaNet is in a win-win situation here. The F2P market would be hit the hardest by something like that - the cases such as Runes of Magic/Free Realms where there is no client cost upfront like in most other MMOs. Of course they skirt the problem by providing their own approved RMT service :-)

Keep in mind that what you just mentioned is completely different from what was mentioned previously. There's a big legal difference between someone selling you something that eventually stops working and someone selling you something that they know does not work. One is called the product's lifetime the other is called fraud.

if they did this it wouldnt bother me but it seems you blame the z keys for ruining an economy when it was clearly ruined back when they made inscriptions. if you truly were here from beta you would have seen that. z keys just further flattened out those who decided that z keys not ectos should be the source of trading

I see this quote a lot, and I'm not sure it's very representative of the actually amount of banning going on each and every month, as with all press releases, marketing hype and spin doctoring this is more likely to be a form of selective truth...

I'm sure that during a short period of Guild War's history, while ArenaNet was initially cracking down on the RMT that they did indeed average around 5000 bans a month, I'm not saying they lied... but to suggest that it's an average of 5000 accounts per month every month? Not likely.

The truth is, with the RMTs adapting to the ArenaNet crackdown, the period of time when ArenaNet was largely ignoring the problem etc the 'average figure' is far lower.

Made worse by the possibility that many of those 'banned' RMT accounts were, and are likely to be replaced by, stolen player accounts.

I think the amount of money flowing from the RMT industry into NCsoft coffers is considerably lower than '5000 accounts per month' might suggest.

Just food for thought.

They said per week Nerel.

http://www.guildwars.com/support/rmt/rmt-en.php