Why XTH should remain broken

No one has mentioned how the XTH/Zrank emote has brought more attention to PvP.

As for Anet being 'gold sellers', its there game and they are trying to make money. I would rather have them use the XTH to make money than making us pay2play. Anet also doesnt have a huge staff working on GW1. Remember, more money for Anet = more content for us!

This is the best advice I have seen on any Guild Wars forums.

I was being sarcastic. The problem is that it seems to be ignored so often, as well as the disconnect between the purpose of the coins, and the nature of the rewards. Coins are earned though work and time put into the game, and are supposed to yield somewhat unique rewards, as opposed to being a gold source through trading to other players.

This is a problem by itself. The current system doesn't make much sense, and function less as rewards than an extension of the economy. Take a look at just how many players sell their heavy pack when they get it, making it less of a reward and more of a get-rich-faster method.

And that's wrong why....................?

That's overly simplified.
Those 12 keys don't mean that there is now 48k more in the game. They mean that someone will advance his Z-Title for 60 points and introduce the amount of gold into the game, that the items obtained from the chest can be sold for. Given the rarity of items - this will probably mean a few k.
And that happens once per month, once per account.
And the number of keys depends on luck - or if we want to reduce luck, wasting time by keeping up with who has the best chances (which also means players are "playing" the game, thus not getting things for free).

Now compare this farming. Especially SCs.


While the chest certainly has an effect, it's effect is probably very minimal compared to the real threats to the economy.
And given the fact that the OP has no issues with farming:
I don't see this being an issue.




If you want to save the economy - KILL OFF EVERYTHING that brings in more money than normal 8-man play.

Agree completely. I'll never recommend GW2 to any friends (and will in fact do my best to turn them away from GW2) if they're already 4-5 years of grinding behind somebody on day one.

It is not a "problem", it works this way BY DESIGN. Zcoins, Zkeys (through XTH), Nick's gifts, etc. are all meant for you to earn in the first place. Like I have said, it has always been the case that buying certain stuff from ANet gives you an advantage in the game, be it unlock packs, new accounts/character slots, or Factions/NF Collector's Editions for their exclusive mini pets. At least ANet has been smart enough to "sell you gold" indirectly.

What I have is a few years of study in mathematics. The distribution just doesn't look right.

I agree but 8-man play reward needs a boost as well. Then, between a boost to 8-man play and a nerf to SC, you could solo or do 8-man (h/h, full party or anywhere between) according to your own tastes.

8-man rewards has been increased over the years, but it still isn't very rewarding. And playing in Prophecies or Factions basically means the large majority of gold items are just 300g or so.

*sigh* And for the 5th time in this thread. It's not right, I all ready stated this. Go back to page 2 and you'll see what I believe the true numbers are closer to.

My purpose in creating the poll had absolutely nothing to do with trying to compare how many people were using extra accounts for XTH. As I mentioned before, it was taken out of context and tried to be used for something that it wasn't trying to gauge in the first place. What's even funnier is that I've stated all this to you twice now and you are still trying to explain why it's a bad poll when I've agreed with you. This is a bad poll to try to compare how many people are using their extra accounts for XTH.

Don't worry, Inde. It's human nature - people just like complaining, over and over.

OT - Play the game and have fun, if you don't enjoy it, then leave. Stop trying to impress things on others for your own personal gain or motivation.

XTH wasn't broken on purpose in the first place, so get the "should remain broken" out of your mind. They're trying to fix it for the good of their players and you want to destroy it? foolishness.

How and How much people get money isn't the problem as long as they aren't breaking any rules.


The problem is players themselves. They just don't mind their own business.


If we make it like this then armbraces, zkeys and many other rewards shouldn't be tradeable either just because it's a reward. That's not your problem if they want to sell or keep it.


And last thing before I close this post. XTH isn't the only easy money making thing in the game. There's BDS farming, DoA and other methods and places to get money from. Looking at just the XTH is wrong IMO.

Look, the problem that people have with the XTH is simple. It dilutes achievement.

There's a massive externality associated with free zkey giveaways, easy ecto farming, overpowered PvE skills, and making rare skins easily available to the masses. They make the things you can farm/easily purchase with the proceeds less desirable (everyone has more money/farmable goodies, so capacity constraints increase), and dramatically inflate the cost of the truly rare stuff.

Nobody wants things that any monkey can get; historical item pricing should convince you of this. Look at the price history of the Brute Sword, Sephis Axe, Runic Blade, Stygian Reaver, Dwarven Axe, Serpent Axe, Colossal Scimitar, Elemental Sword...and also consider how often you see these items, as compared to how often you saw them when they were rare and desirable.

If this sort of garbage that makes you "enjoy" the game negatively impacts my enjoyment, you're going to hear about it. The major reason that I no longer play much is that I've accomplished the majority of my goals, and those that remain (eg: acquire a Kanaxai) would be prohibitively time consuming.

Why are these goals prohibitive today? The rate at which I can convert time to in-game cash has remained relatively flat, but the rate at which the semi-competent player can convert time to in-game cash has increased dramatically as a result of the aforementioned garbage.

What's wrong with wanting to see skill rewarded? Isn't that how the game was marketed?

Says the narcissist that thought people would pay to see him dedicate a Kanaxai. Oh, sweet irony.

You can get keys from XTH without investing time. It's by far the most efficient farm in existence. And THAT is the fundamental problem.

Wait, wut? XTH dilutes achievement of the zaishen title? wut

Who here actually has the title?

@Martin Alvito: Shut up if you don't play the game. Why can't you just move on then? Some people still enjoy the game.
Did you complain about Ocarina of Time when you had gotten all the heart pieces too? GW isn't some dream game with infinite content.

@Inde: How much longer until this thread is locked?

Kain: suppose we lived in a world where zkeys were not tradeable, and where there was no XTH.

The only people that would have high ranks in the title would be the PvP-ers that succeed in the AT format. Having the emote would enable those players to easily signal something (I win @ ATs).

Now, you can make a utilitarian argument that permitting the trading of zkeys increases societal utility by enabling the market to put those keys in the hands of those who value them the most. However, you've also destroyed utility by making the emote unable to signal something. It may well be that players that trade the keys would have wanted to keep them if and only if they were not tradeable...and therefore valuable as a signal.

Now, throw XTH into the mix. Now there are millions more keys dumped into the system every month. So instead of a handful of players that could over a long period of time max the title, we already have at least a dozen that I've personally seen. I see rank 8-9 players ALL THE TIME.

Can you see how it would be more desirable to have r12 Zaishen (or high ranks period) if you could be reasonably certain that no one else would be getting there any time soon?

Can you see how people would be just as proud of r6 Zaishen as they currently are of r9 Zaishen, if there were no XTH and thus no massive supply of keys being dumped into the system?

Who are these people you speak of?

Who is it a problem for?

Achievement is just a title you can show off to others, sort of like a peacock displaying its feathers for other peacocks. It may impress other peacocks but not some other type of bird.

It's too late to save the ill fated Zaishen title, it's just a crappy one now.

Bring on the Balthazar title, with a better emote that refects your total balth faction gained on your account, what the zaishen title SHOULD have been.

^^ this. the meddling has gone far enough.

Here's how they could fix Zkey stuff: make them not tradable, customized to your character. either you use them or throw them away. yeah you can sell the stuff that you get out of the chest still, but you'd have to make your own faction for them, rather than farming for the money to buy them in bulk.

I do think the reward for predicting should be account-based, maybe remove Zaishen Keys as TRP-Reward? Make TRP only for unlocking weaponry and armor for PvP and your problem (whatever it might be, I'm fine with everything but I would prefer to see TRP like this) is solved.

Zkeys allow pvpers to make money to pay for guild halls and invites/guests. And to have pretty pve chars.

Its amazing, when this game is given overpowered skills it disrupts game balance and people on this fourm ask to get said skills changed.

Yet with the XTH people don't even have to play this game, the only thing stopping them having infinite money is time.

Don't act like money doesn't matter in this game, it clearly does... people on this fourm have issues with speedclears/farms and the overpowered skills which allow them to do so.

Players want to nerf these overpowered skills to ensure said players play these areas as intended, if money doesn't matter why do people doing farms/speedclears effect you?

So overpowered skills give the player easy/god mode, but having basically an infinite money source without even playing the game is fine.

Oh in regard to the people that support whatever anet sells/does because it gives anet more money, helps fund GW2 etc, etc... You do realise that the money generated, or a part of, might not be going into the running/dev of gw1/2 or anything else that the player would actually see. For all you know it could be filling the account @ anet for their christmas party...

It means there is 48k of buying power inserted into the game. I said zkeys=currency not zkeys=gold. A euro is not a dollar , but both spend because they are currency. They also both have an effect on the world economy.

/signed

This is a totally ridiculous statement. I am sure their accountants keep their Christmas party fund properly allocated. Any other ideas where the money might go?

The OP's point might be valid however money doesn't make you a better player in any way the person with torm weps and obby armor can still die to the dude in 1k canthan with a collector wep. As for buying titles ... so what? Does buying these titles affect anybody else in any way? at all? (aside from the people making cash from runs) not at all!

I fail to see the problem here.

(P.S sorry if this has already been said, I didnt read all the pages)

The only way for me to earn tournament reward points is through the XTH since I only do FA/AB and occasionally RA. I'd like it fixed very much, because I eventually want to unlock this baby:

So you are saying ANet employees, no matter how hard they work, are not entitled to any forms of morale event? Maybe they should be chained to their workstations while surviving on bread and water, providing whatever game features you want at no cost while you crack your whip against their backs?

There is nothing wrong with ANet earning extra money from their customers, in fact it is EXPECTED that they do so. Why do some of you keep thinking that ANet is running some gamming charity and has infinite resources to give us whatever we want for free?

Why cant you learn to be happy for your fellow gamers for getting more gold through XTH or otherwise? This thread is full of mean envy and jealousy. Human selfishness in its highest form.

Then you should know just how small a sasmple you need for things to be statistically significant.

Let's see, how many would you say, mathematically, are needed to be representative of a 1 million population? Say with 95% confidence.

Into NCsoft's coffers? From there it could end up being used to fight off frivolous law suits (Worlds.com), Hyping up Aion, lining Richard Garriott's pockets (Assuming NCsoft settles) or funding the next Tabula Rasa like failure...

That question doesn't make as much sense as you think it does. The confidence interval is independent of the size of the population it represents.

Lets try to get the whole picture on this on one post.

XTH Predictions, in its current form, the PROS:

1) Sales of additional accounts leading to revenue for ANet which helps support Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2;
2) Reduce the demand for purchasing in game gold from Third Party Gold Farmers. (There are many benefits to this alone, people being ripped off, accounts being hacked, constant spamming and game INFLATION, more in game gold is introduced into the game)
3) Allows some people to have a better experience in the game by being able to spend some additional money to obtain shinny pixels without having to grind all day (silly as this may seem)
4) Increases interest for the general Guild Wars population in GvG and HvH. I personally have as a result of XTH predictions find myself observing matches and learning to GvG.
5) Gives the top GvG'ers incentive to play. People like to be watched ^.^

XTH Predictions, in its current form, the CONS:

1) Some people are obviously upset, like the OP. ANet is indirectly allowing others to obtain shinny pixels, by spending real money. I think the pissed off people are saying its game integrity, fairness, that suffers.

To this I ask, why are you asking a private, for profit, gaming company for integrity and fairness? Its a game have fun playing and You got your shinny pixels through your effort, XTH people got it by spending their Real Money. Find satisfaction in knowing that. Just because they may have shinny pixels don't make them a good player, able to do things in game better than someone else without the shinny pixels or you.

Further, is it not the LEET Gamer that farmed the BDS or other shinnys, or the PvP'er with the mini's that ultimately benefits? They sold it to a XTH key farmer.

2) Its bugged so until its finally fixed its a bi#ch to maintain and keep up for ANet. And This I fear may be the torpedo that kills XTH Predictions. They got you to buy the accounts, and if it costs money to fix or maintain, they may scrap it. Of course, this will turn off the real gaming high spenders. You will not see them buy 10-20 accounts of GW2 when and if it comes out.

Or maybe NCSoft's president's cousin's brother has a mistress and the money goes to fund her diamond ring? Or maybe they are harboring aliens bent on destroying the earth and the money goes into building their new ray gun?

Therefore ANet has no right to earn any money from us and everything should be free right? Free to play game with free accounts. I enjoy your conspiracy theory justifications.

The point is, without real profits, GW would share the same fate as Tabula Rasa. Don't even talk about GW2.

Without XTH I wont even bother to know who the top guilds are in pvp, not to mention watching any of their matches.

1). Sales of additional accounts isn't anything that people are denying, in just the same way that Gold sellers buy additional accounts. Having more accounts sold is good for NCsoft, sure, but does that naturally equate to being good if the reason those accounts are being sold is detrimental to the game?

2). Reducing the amount of gold being purchased from RMTs and then claiming that having that wealth come from some other source won't somehow have a similar effect on the economy in turns of inflation? Gold seller sells me 250 ectos... on noes inflation! XTH gives me 250 zkeys... nah, no inflation? Logic.

3). I'm lazy, I want the pretty stuff, but I don't want to have to play the game and earn it... why are you advocating on behalf of the gold sellers again? As much as you PRETEND to make arguments against the RMT, you're conclusions support them.

4). The XTH can't create the same interest in PvP, without being an RMT equivalent cash cow? Of course it can. Non tradable zkeys for one thing.

5). They're already watched by the PvP community, Observe also works for PvEers... Browsing the forums on Guru to make your predictions on the other hand does nothing for the vanity of PvPers. Changing the XTH doesn't alter this.


"To this I ask, why are you asking a private, for profit, gaming company for integrity and fairness? " Because that is what they offered us as an incentive to buy their game... really, don't be obtuse.

Integrity and fairness are essential to create a fair competitive environment, I'm guessing all your points about the XTH supporting PvP game play just dissolved into... "I'm grasping at RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing straws trying to come up with excuses, bawwwhhhh, please don't take my zkeys away!"

Well done.


In answering the question, where does the money from selling accounts go, I suggested it went to NCsoft, the company that OWNS Guild Wars, the company that SELLS Guild Wars... how they spend that money is upto them.

I never said they didn't have the right to the money... and you can stop being a MORON and suggesting I said otherwise. You can also PROVE that NCsoft doesn't spend money on any of the things I listed (promoting their games, developing their games and fending off lawsuits against them) before you start introducing IDIOTIC GARBAGE like alien conspiracies.

You must have taken your stupid pills today, and some how managed TO NOT READ the post you were replying to.

I enjoy you spewing moronic nonsense that has NOTHING to do with the post I made, seriously... you're just awesome.

Seriously, the FACT that NCsoft makes money by selling THEIR games, and uses that money to MAKE and PROMOTE their games, and is also forced to spend money when defending themselves against lawsuits is somehow a CONSPIRACY THEORY to you, that's just incredible.

You are describing 2 mutually independent activities. I can buy multiple accounts, which is good, but if I use one of them for a bot then that is bad right?

In the same way, buying additional accounts is good, but using them to sell gold is bad.

Yes it will have an effect, but the effect is minimal and well under control. XTh was on for a while and I dont see the economy crashing.

Earn it? That sounds like you are advocating additional work and grind. We already get alot of things for free, your birthday presents are free, did you work for them? Your festival gifts that appear in your inventory you got for free. There is nothing wrong with having some of these from the online store.

Why can't you be happy for others who are enjoying the game from obtaining their shiny pixels?

Then they would just trade the stuff from the chest. No difference.

Of all the double standards and hypocrisy, you purposefully avoid Nick's gifts which has the SAME issue. But I suppose you are ok with that feature because it profits you right?

There is no reason to observe any of their matches without XTH prediction.

In the end, I dont see how other people becoming rich would impact you negatively besides making you envious and greedy. Integrity and fairness means giving people what they pay for and not taking their money and run away with it. They promised XTH rewards for EACH participating account on their website and they should deliver what they have promised. ANet already knew that people would buy extra accounts for the XTH rewards, if they dont deliver, then that would be misleading their customers.

And NCSoft defending themselves against lawsuits is bad? Why? Are you saying they should NEVER defend themselves in court and just go bankrupt close down everything when sued? Right....

Yes, that is absolutely right, congratulations for understanding the point. ArenaNet/NCsoft selling more accounts IS GOOD.

Having those accounts used in a way detrimental to the game IS BAD.

The solution is EASY, make the use of multiple accounts NOT be detrimental to the game, alter the XTH.

I'm so glad we agree on this very simple point

Dupers duped for a while, Gold sellers sold FOREVER, they're still selling... you state that YES IT WILL HAVE AN EFFECT, but so long as the economy hasn't crashed, it's all good. By your argument Gold Sellers (RMT) SHOULD be allowed, they ALSO have an EFFECT on the economy, but they haven't crashed it yet, despite being around for far longer than the XTH. Right, no thank you. You admit that there is an effect from the XTH, and apparently it's the same effect gold sellers introduce to the game. We all know ArenaNet's stance on gold sellers... they negatively effect the economy and are unfair to the majority of Guild Wars players who don't engage in RMT.

You're meant to be making arguments FOR retaining the XTH as it is, not against keeping the XTH cash cow.


Why can't I do a happy song and dance for Gold buyers, Bots, Exploit abusers and Account thieves? They're all obtaining shiny pixels for doing squat also? They're enjoying the game the way they want to. No idea, really...

I'm advocating playing the game, you can CHOOSE to do extra work IF YOU WANT TO, you can CHOOSE to grind, IF YOU WANT TO.

Can I buy a maxed rank Glad and Hero title in the online store? Why not? It's no different, I want something DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN and I DON'T WANT TO EARN IT, but I'm more than happy to BUY IT WITH REAL WORLD CASH.

You don't have a problem with that either do you? I mean, you're not a hypocrite who is just advocating something on behalf of your own self interest and greed, are you?

ArenaNet made some things in this game DIFFICULT to EARN, the degree of difficulty and the amount of dedication required to EARN these things varies, but applies fairly and equally to all players.

Some items are so very rare that farming for them isn't all that practical, some titles are relatively simple, but others do require a fair amount of effort, and often a good measure of skill...

This is how the game was made. And this is how the game was sold.

ArenaNet made it clear that people shouldn't CHEAT to shortcut this, botting wealth and titles while away from your computer is BAD, it gives you an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

Buying Fame is BAD, it defeats the purpose, or dual purposes if you consider vanity a purpose of the title, of having the title.

Buying gold is bad, it effects the economy and unfairly advantages players who SPEND real money, as opposed to playing the game.


Economy of scale. The difference is HUGE.

Yes, because PvP players, and prospective PvP players don't LEARN ANYTHING BY WATCHING THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE GAME COMPETE. Don't be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing daft, do you think the Observe feature was added just for the XTH? There might not be any reason to watch the matches for XTH RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs, but then, that would just disprove the hollow arguments you make about the XTH having any real benefit to promoting interest in PvP.

On a side note, some people actually DO ENJOY watching a good match, use the search function on these forums... You're witless observation was just proven wrong, twice.

I have multiple accounts, I can take advantage of the XTH too, I also have a Credit Card if I feel that four accounts just isn't enough for me...

You don't see how bots, gold sellers and their like could negatively impact upon my enjoyment of the game? I mean, really, the end effect is EXACTLY the same... please tell me you support people using bots to farm, work on titles and the like. Please tell me that you condone gold sellers in this game and take moral outrage at ArenaNet for banning them?

I could make the counter argument that ArenaNet sold the game prior to the XTH for a number of years with the promise of a fair and balanced game, often LOUDLY and PUBLICLY condemming any activities that gave an unfair advantage to those who didn't play the game fairly, but instead sought to use BOTS or REAL MONEY for an advantage.

Unlike you, I can prove my stance by QUOTING ArenaNet. Please show me this PROMISE of yours? What, it's just another game feature with no explicit promise or guarantee? Damn, I guess you should stop imagining ArenaNet PROMISED you FREE GOLD in exchange for REAL WORLD CASH.

Oh wait, you said 'rewards', well they still didn't promise you rewards, but fair enough... change the XTH to give non tradable Zkeys, you still have your reward, even if it was never promised. You'd be happy with that? Good, I'm happy for you. Really, I am.

Really, you need to LEARN TO READ...

I NEVER said it was BAD!

I NEVER suggested that they shouldn't defend themselves against legal action!

You are MAKING THINGS UP either because you're TOO STUPID TO READ or LACKING ANYTHING RESEMBLING A COHERENT ARGUMENT.

Seriously, fail less on someone else's time.

Grr... I see you're editing the post and adding new points...

Fine...

To get Nicholas the Traveler's gifts you need to

A). Have a character on each account with access to where Nicholas is, that is anywhere in every campaign.

B). Collect the items Nicholas is trading for

That is called PLAYING THE GAME, it's something that I'm (oddly enough) not opposed to people doing, playing the game is different from REACHING FOR YOUR CREDIT CARD when you need an advantage.

As for saying it profits me, it profits me no more than the XTH, as you can understand... you just defeated your own argument with a large dose of stupidity.

According to you I'm against the XTH because people with multiple accounts can make profit, but I'm for Nicholas because people with multiple accounts can make profit?

That makes NO SENSE to me, but that is what YOU PROPOSE.

Really, where is the hypocrisy that I'm being accused of? I really don't have a problem with you trying to use large words, really, I think it's cute... but please try to UNDERSTAND what the word means, use the word when APPROPRIATE, and if you're making an assertion or accusation have the sense to explain or justify it.

Until this post I haven't mentioned Nicholas, so you're accusation of Hypocrisy is BASED ON A MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION that you made.

If you look hard enough, you'll find a reason to call me hypocrite, unfortunately this isn't it. Try harder, think more... and when you go back and edit a post AFTER someone is replying to it, don't be surprised if they missed a point that you ADDED AFTER THEY REPLIED. Have a good day.

edit: Where the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did Nick's gifts even enter the conversation? Did you just bring that up at the same time you called me a hypocrite for not commenting on them? because if you HADN'T brought it up, and I HADN'T mentioned my stance on them, then you would have NO REASON to call me a hypocrite... in much the same way I WOULD have a reason to suggest that you're not very smart. Either I missed something, which doesn't appear to be the case, or you're making stuff up AGAIN, and... being not very smart.

people with money get what they want, thats how life is.

People with ENOUGH money get what they want, in some circumstances.

That is indeed true. That is indeed how life is.

I'm glad I'm not one of those people who's grasp on reality blurs the line between life and a fantasy game, however.

Well... maybe on weekends...

This is what I had an issue with:
and that's why I said it's overly simplified.
Especially since compared to other currencies such as gold or ecto, ZKeys themselves have a merch value of 0 and the only thing they are used for is to advance a title.
I simply do not see them as being this insane threat, when they also have some positive effects, such as getting people interested in the part of the game needs to raise some interest.
The XTH isn't just an game economy question. Like I said, it's also a PvP question, a real-life advertising question also, since it keeps people interested in the game, even if they just come to vote one per month and of course a way for A.net to get some income from a dead game.

Who cares about the wealth or ingame economy in this point in time. All there is to do is Wait for XTH to be fixed. continue making our zkeys and heading onto diablojsp.org and selling your millions of dollars to for forum gold then buying out guildwars 2 when its out and wreck that economy

The statement i wrote is ridiculous, I threw the statement out there because people seem quite happy to throw this games balance/integrity in the name of anet making abit of extra money.

Its selfish to think that all this money is going to go to good use, or the player will even see the benefits.

Yes

I have nothing against anet making some money, as a gamer i have abit of a problem with companies that a ok job of balancing a game then essentially start the process of "selling out" where by they completely backtrack on the work they've done so far just to make abit of money or decide they want to move onto the sequal.

Would the playerbase be happy if anet released an expansion pack for gw2 that indtroduces a way to get free money every month, unnerfed Ursan and Shadow Form type skills and other overpowed/unbalanced stuff when bar a few problems, the game was ok.

I understand that this game is essentially just a tool to make money, its also given a nice insight of what could essentially happen to gw2 when they decide to put all dev resources on gw3.

I' am happy for my fellow gamers... The XTH can stay, with me its not a case of jealously or envy. I just wanted to put a few questions out there and ask why, a common thing i'm seeing on this fourm is people are rallying behind this crusade for balance but they want to pick and chose whats balanced on their terms.