Zaishen Service The Biggest Scam of GW? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:25 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneManWolf

funny i thought it was great
gave a guy 5 of my keys he used 5 of his i got a EL tonic
sold said tonic haven't touched the service since
the keys cost me nothing
i won them by messing around in z elite testing some builds lol
not sure why u think it's a scam
it's a gamble
the odds are not in ur favor but u compared this to the lotto... lotto odds are in the millions to win... the z chest more like in the hundreds to win... comparing odds to payout it's about the same
get over it stop whining and stfu

Someone needs to go back to school. Just because you got lucky 1 time doesnt mean many other people have, My math results do not lie. If you cannot accept the fact that the odds of winning do not meet with the amount of money you are likely to put into it then there is nothing more I can do to help you. Just remeber I was trying to be on your side, so flame me because you got lucky. w/e

Kerwyn Nasilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2007

WHERE DO YOU THINK

W/

02 Aug 2009 at 01:26 - 42

You seem to believe people intend to make more money then they put in. I am 100% sure that anyone with even a hazy idea of what the ZChest spits out would know they will never make there money back at current ZKey prices. But yet plenty of people use the chest because IT IS A GAMBLE AND THEY DONT HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO WASTE THERE MONEY ON. There are people that dont care about titles and dont really care about money. They do however enjoy the gamble like me. I use my 100k worth of keys every month for what I KNOW will be 10k worth of drops maybe more if I get lucky, plus a few more points to a title I don't plan to max or even get remotely high because I enjoy the gamble. Now for the people that have all they really need. Get there 100k worth of ZKeys and do what according to you? Waste half there potential drops? I agree with WhiteWasabi that you are just trying to protect your little title/are angry you wasted double the money you had to. Go cry to someone who cares because as far as I can tell not a single poster here does.

EDIT: I thought it over and I agree with you! The poor people offering the service are be scammed by the bastards abusing it! I mean they are getting no drops and making no money!@!!!!!

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:32 - 43

you are assuming these clients really care anything about the zaishen title. I'm sorry, but quite a few people could really care less about it. If it's worthless, then the client comes out ahead because the alternative would be to use 1 key and get less back than having someone else use 1 key. In this case they get 2 creme brulees instead of 1. You should really be trying to convince people to not use the z-keys on the chest period, as regardless of how they are used, you yourself pointed out it's a losing situation.

You are assuming the zaishen title is actually worth something because you are a rank 10 and value it yourself. Not everyone shares your opinion.

If they are disappointed that 1 z-key gives them crap, then after 1000 z-keys they are probably going to feel worse than if they had gotten 1000 drops via 500 z-keys (the other 500 being the person that actually cares about getting the title).

As such, anyone determined to try and farm the z-chest that does not care about the zaishen title is actually better off using the service since they will get twice the drops for the same amount of money. Your argument really only means something if they really do care about the title, in which case yes they are cheating themselves out of that title by giving it to someone else. I suspect they arent though.

The problm you express isn't with the service, it's with the losing situation (lootwise) by using z-keys. It really does sound like you're upset other people are getting the title without paying as much as you did since people that care nothing about the title can only benefit by using the service and doubling their creme brulee drops.

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

02 Aug 2009 at 01:35 - 44

Errr... it's a balance. Just like selling a rune to a person instead of to the trader. You get more from the person than you would from the trader and they get the rune cheaper from you than they would from the trader.

Everyone knows the Zaishen chest is a dirty hooker that spits out utter garbage 95% of the time. Having someone open it for you doesn't negate this. You are using keys, either directly or indirectly, and this is a gamble. It's less of a gamble since the service provider is giving you additional chances by using their own keys.

I didn't bother to read this thread as I'm sure most people who have a clue came to the same conclusion.

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:36 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

you are assuming these clients really care anything about the zaishen title. I'm sorry, but quite a few people could really care less about it. If it's worthless, then the client comes out ahead because the alternative would be to use 1 key and get less back than having someone else use 1 key. In this case they get 2 creme brulees instead of 1. You should really be trying to convince people to not use the z-keys on the chest period, as regardless of how they are used, you yourself pointed out it's a losing situation.

You are assuming the zaishen title is actually worth something because you are a rank 10 and value it yourself. Not everyone shares your opinion.

If they are disappointed that 1 z-key gives them crap, then after 1000 z-keys they are probably going to feel worse than if they had gotten 1000 drops via 500 z-keys (the other 500 being the person that actually cares about getting the title).

your logic is flawed, you assume the only 2 options for Z Keys is to:
A:use them
B service them

have you considered just selling them? sell 1 key and you can have 13 cremes + change zomg deal ding dong!

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:38 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

your logic is flawed, you assume the only 2 options for Z Keys is to:
A:use them
B service them

have you considered just selling them? sell 1 key and you can have 13 cremes + change zomg deal ding dong!

what I said only applies to people that are determined to farm the chest. If they are determined to farm the chest then they are not going to sell their z-keys to other people regardless.

Again, your argument is about the chest itself, not the service. The service shouldn't stop someone from selling the keys. If someone is not aware of the drop rate, the very act of using the z-keys to get rich is bad.

using the service or using your keys makes no difference if you're in it to get non-chest loot. You should be convincing people to not use their z-keys on the chest, whether through a service or alone. Your argument makes it sound like you were rather have people use their keys on the chest alone than use a service, which is the worse of the two options.

Selling the keys to other players trumps both options. That has nothing to do with whether they use a service- that has to do with convincing players not to use the z-chest period.

EDIT: I don't think my logic is flawed. I think your understanding is flawed. You really should be crusading against using the z-keys period and convincing people that don't care about the title to sell the z-keys to people that do care about the title. Convincing people to not use the service while not convincing them to avoid the chest is what is flawed, since they will be worse off loot-wise by soloing the chest instead of doubling their loot by using a service - both of which are probably less lucrative than if you convinced them to not use the chest at all.

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

02 Aug 2009 at 01:38 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

your logic is flawed, you assume the only 2 options for Z Keys is to:
A:use them
B service them

have you considered just selling them? sell 1 key and you can have 13 cremes + change zomg deal ding dong!

Have you considered that?

If you use them, you get title points and drop chances. If you service them, you don't get title points but get either cheaper opens or more opens of the chest. That's why it's a SERVICE, not a GIVEAWAY. It's MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:40 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

There is obviously an element of resentment towards people who are catching up because of this service but the fact remains its a scam and the math prooves it.

Your math proves nothing.

1) The drop rates on rare stuff are SO bad that there's no way you can infer the actual drop rates from the use of 7500 keys. We'd need to have a good sense of what the real drop rates on rare stuff really are to be able to have a good estimate of the value of a zkey. Small permutations of those drop rates have big effects on the estimate.

I'll leave it to a real statistician to tell us what we can really infer from your data (ie: some idea of the confidence interval around your data point). I work with statistics regularly, so I can run a quick estimate and conclude that we don't know what you think you know, but I've forgotten the precise calculations and don't feel like looking them up.

2) Even if we could conclusively prove that a zkey drops 1/3 its own value on average, that doesn't mean that the seller of Zaishen services should have to return the drops of two keys in order to borrow one from another player. Some people just like lotteries, and may be perfectly willing to trade at 1:1, even if they knew that they were losing money in the long run. You have implicitly assumed that the "fair" value of Zaishen services is the risk neutral price...and that is simply not true. The "fair" value of the service is what the market will bear. There are numerous other lotteries that players have been willing to overpay for in-game. The Coffer of Whispers is a great example.

In short, you're just wrong. Quit bawling like a baby because you spent your own zkeys for fewer points than you could have gotten. Go sell a mini or make some trades, buy some keys and run your own Zaishen service.

The GW economy is a world without intellectual property rights or copyrights. Someone else has a good idea? Steal it. Don't whine about it.

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:41 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Have you considered that?

If you use them, you get title points and drop chances. If you service them, you don't get title points but get either cheaper opens or more opens of the chest. That's why it's a SERVICE, not a GIVEAWAY. It's MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.

Since 1 Z Drop is worth, for all intensive purposes 1k (since each drop gives you 25% back what you invested, according to the drop rate over time) By using this service you pay 1 key (4k) for 2 1k's. you have to have an IQ under 100 to think the client is being benefited.

I'm pretty sure most of you disagree with me because you disagree with my claim of it being a scam. Not because you think it's actually a good service. You can't both claim to be smarter than me and use the Z Service. imo.

As I said I have more than enough to throw away and service my way to z12. I choose not to.

Clients consider yourself warned!

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:45 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Since 1 Z Drop is worth, for all intensive purposes 1k (since each drop gives you 25% back what you invested, according to the drop rate over time) By using this service you pay 1 key (4k) for 2 1k's. you have to have an IQ under 100 to think the client is being benefited.

then why are you wasting time trying to convince people not to use the service? You should, in all rights, be trying to convince people not to use the zaishen chest, period..

EDIT: If they care about the title then they won't use a service anyway. If they don't care about the service, then convince them to sell their z-keys. Otherwise they'll be worse off by continuing to use the chest without using a service since they'll be wasting keys while getting half the loot (much less than half of what they would get on average by not using the chest at all).

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

02 Aug 2009 at 01:46 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Since 1 Z Drop is worth, for all intensive purposes 1k (since each drop gives you 25% back what you invested, according to the drop rate over time) By using this service you pay 1 key (4k) for 2 1k's. you have to have an IQ under 100 to think the client is being benefited.

The service provider is offering you to DOUBLE your return. You go into Isle of the Nameless knowing statistically that it's a bad choice. If you're going to gamble, you might as well do it at DOUBLE EFFICIENCY.

Also, stop arguing by making insults. It's ridiculous. Then again, nobody in this thread respects you anymore anyway because you won't listen to logic.

Don't want to get ripped off? Sell the keys.
Don't care about Z-title and want to get ripped off less than others? Service the keys.
Want to get ripped off or care about Z-title? Open the chest yourself or provide Zaishen service.

You can go ahead and stop arguing now, because in the economic situation you're arguing about, you're wrong. Objectively. And everyone else knows it.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

02 Aug 2009 at 01:47 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Since 1 Z Drop is worth, for all intensive purposes 1k (since each drop gives you 25% back what you invested, according to the drop rate over time) By using this service you pay 1 key (4k) for 2 1k's. you have to have an IQ under 100 to think the client is being benefited.

The client is getting a free drop. The quality of that drop is irrelevant as to the integrity of the arrangement. Only way its a scam is for the service provider to renege on relinquishing both drops.

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 Aug 2009 at 01:49 - 53

Okay so.

A regular slot machine in the casino pays out 85-90% of the money thrown in the machine.
Has anyone ever complained this is a scam? No.

Gambling is gambling and don't confuse gambling with math. This entire OP is a waste of time if you ask me. Offcourse the zaishen chest is a money sink for anet, as they dont have much of those, if they want it to be a moneysink it's gonna pay out less than put into it.

And that's when gambling comes back in the picture.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:51 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

The service provider is offering you to DOUBLE your return. You go into Isle of the Nameless knowing statistically that it's a bad choice. If you're going to gamble, you might as well do it at DOUBLE EFFICIENCY.

Also, stop arguing by making insults. It's ridiculous. Then again, nobody in this thread respects you anymore anyway because you won't listen to logic.

Don't want to get ripped off? Sell the keys.
Don't care about Z-title and want to get ripped off less than others? Service the keys.
Want to get ripped off or care about Z-title? Open the chest yourself or provide Zaishen service.

You can go ahead and stop arguing now, because in the economic situation you're arguing about, you're wrong. Objectively. And everyone else knows it.

well I think either he understands or is just upset at the people getting the title e4asier than he did. He's making the wrong argument. Nobody is arguing that using a z-key is better than selling it cash-wise.

I should ask him this, if a person is determined to use their z-key and refuses to sell it to another player in the hope they may get an everlasting tonic (your 2 out of 7500), would you recommend they use the z-key and hope that the 1 drop if a tonic or use a service and hope that one out of the two drops will be a tonic? How would you justify one over the other, assuming this person cares nothing about the title and is determined to use the chest. Which one of those two options (remember, selling the z-key is not an option in this scenario) is the best one for the client?

Now having said that, wouldn't it be better in your argument to challenge using the z-chest in any form (service or not) instead of directing it solely towards half the problem - the zaishen service..

EDIT: The other thing to remember is the items that (as far as I know) solely drop from the z-chest - the tonics. Are the prices of these tonics (let's just talk about the everlasting ones) from other players cheaper than the rate of drops through the z-chest? If so, then yeah - skip the chest and sell keys til you can afford it. If not, then use the chest if you want one of those tonics.

It's not all about cash value.

Narcissia

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

BC Canada

Guild With No [NAM???]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:52 - 55

to OP:
are you just complaining because you didn't think to do it before you spent your money? could've gotten the title at half the price

tuna-fish_sushi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

California

E/A

02 Aug 2009 at 01:53 - 56

Hmm... If the "scammer" wants to pay 2.5k per point towards a little emote that has no effect over me or anybody else, let them. Assuming their rich, (which they usually are if they want to pay so much for a title) then all I see is them circulating money back into the economy.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:56 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price. A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at. And last I checked having 13 of the items is better than having 2 of it. Feel free to reply again posting how I am wrong.

You keep skirting the logic we are bringing up. Nobody is arguing that 2 drops are higher than 13.

How can you possibly say that 1 drop is higher than 13? That's what it would be if someone didn't use the service and used the z-chest by themselves. Do you truly believe that 1 drop is better than 13? That's what you're arguing.

1 drop is worse than 2 drops which is worse than 13 drops.

so, your argument should have been don't use the z-chest in any form because (1 or 2 drops) is less than 13..

instead you are telling people that 2 drops is worse than 13 without also telling them that 1 drop (using the z-key without using a service) is less than 13.

HOWEVER, if a person is absolutely determined to use the chest..... (the 13 option is not there since they refuse to sell a z-key), 2 is a better drop rate than 1.

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:56 - 58

Flame me if you feel like it. But truth be told I doubt many will continue to use this service, or start. It's established now it's just not worth it for any reason to service your keys. Unless there is absolutly no item or title you want in gw.

YW for the warning cyall in Kamadan!

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 01:57 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

You keep skirting the logic we are bringing up. Nobody is arguing that 2 drops are higher than 13.

How can you possibly say that 1 drop is higher than 13? That's what it would be if someone didn't use the service and used the z-chest by themselves. Do you truly believe that 1 drop is better than 13? That's what you're arguing.

1 drop is worse than 2 drops which is worse than 13 drops.

so, your argument should have been don't use the z-chest in any form because (1 or 2 drops) is less than 13..

instead you are telling people that 2 drops is worse than 13 without also telling them that 1 drop (using the z-key without using a service) is less than 13.

HOWEVER, if a person is absolutely determined to use the chest..... (the 13 option is not there since they refuse to sell a z-key), 2 is a better drop rate than 1.

you are forgetting again that people value Title points as an "Item" persay.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 01:59 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Flame me if you feel like it. But truth be told I doubt many will continue to use this service, or start. It's established now it's just not worth it for any reason to service your keys. Unless there is absolutly no item or title you want in gw.

YW for the warning cyall in Kamadan!

cool, so you're saying that nobody should use the zaishen chest at all unless they are after the title. They should no go in by themselves and use the keys, and they also should not use the zaishen service. Instead they should always sell their keys to other players unless they want the title.

If you would have stated that in the beginning then you would have saved a whole lot of argument. We're glad now that you realize the service is not the problem but the chest itself is the problem.

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 Aug 2009 at 02:00 - 61

Seriously, what don't you get in this sentence: "People like to gamble."?

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:01 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price. A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at. And last I checked having 13 of the items is better than having 2 of it. Feel free to reply again posting how I am wrong.

Uncertainty.

That zkey is NOT a drop. It's a license to get a drop. You don't know what that license is going to give you.

Some people like uncertainty and risk. This is why we have casinos. Everyone knows that the house always wins, because either the odds are stacked in their favor or the house has a rake of some kind. Despite this, people lose billions and billions of dollars to casinos every year. They enjoy the chance to make money even though they know they're going to lose the money they started with more often than not.

These sorts of people would rather use two licenses for a good drop than have the cash value of three or four licenses. Just because you would not make the trade doesn't mean that all other people would not make the trade. Not everyone in the world is you.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 02:01 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

you are forgetting again that people value Title points as an "Item" persay.

that's what it comes down to then.. I said repeatedly for people that don't care about the title points. It comes down to you being rank 10 and being upset other people are getting those points. Many people don't care about those points.. at all

people that use the service probably could care less about those points..

I don't care about those points.

I someone cares about those points then 13 is less than 1 because that 13 will not get them any points.

you're just sore. I'm sorry but it's the truth. You've skirted every piece of logic in this thread. I agree there's not much more to say..

If you care about the points (IF) then the service is bad - but so is the 13 option - selling to other players.
If you care about cash, then the CHEST is bad.
If you don't care about point and don't care about cash (you want an item from the chest), the service is good unless that item can be bought from another player for less than the cost of it dropping from the chest.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

02 Aug 2009 at 02:04 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

it is shown time and time again it is more effective to save for the item you want, then to try to get it from the Z Chest.

And that, my friend, is the whole point of the zaishen service. The people giving the keys and getting double the drops are willing to take the small chance to get a good drop with a number of keys that is worth less than that drop. It would be 'safer' to keep saving the zkeys and selling them for hard cash, but the whole point of the z-chest is that it is a lottery. You can get a freaking great uberexpensive item with only 1 zkey invested. The fact that the zchest turns out much less than the worth of the zkeys invested on average doesn't have anything to do with it. Some people just want to take the chance. Those people don't care about the title points, so double drops sound pretty good. Works out great for both parties (so long as the title guy doesn't pick up the drops). The point of gambling is that you know that the house wins on average, but there is still a chance you're going home with the jackpot.

FengShuiDove

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]

A/

02 Aug 2009 at 02:04 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price. A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at. And last I checked having 13 of the items is better than having 2 of it. Feel free to reply again posting how I am wrong.

Because 1 key =/= 1 drop, in the economic sense. A key is worth one attempt at a drop and 5 points towards the title. If you care about the title, offer service or open yourself. If you don't, pay for service and get two drops for the price of one.

Since you're so upset about the math, let's say that the value of each key is 1k for the drop and 3k for the 5 title points. The person offering the service uses 2 keys, or 8k, on the chest. They immediately forfeit 2k of that to the client.

So the client invests 4k and gets 2k back instead of 1k. Therefore, they have gone from 25% efficiency to 50%. A double of the effectiveness. The return is halved from 100% to 50%, but if you don't care about the title, then 75% of the original 100% is worthless. In the opinion of the client, they have doubled the worth of their key.

The service provider uses 8k worth of product and gets 6k in return. They've forfeited 100% return for 75% return, but doubled their effectiveness since all they care about is the title itself. Therefore they gave up the 100% return/75% effectiveness for 75% return/double effectiveness.

Both parties have sacrificed efficiency in favor of something they care about. They have obtained either double chest opens/title points at the expense of single drops or double drops at the expense of no chest opens/title points.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

02 Aug 2009 at 02:06 - 66

I would ask, what would you tell a person that doesn't care about the title and wants to use the zaishen chest to see what he'll get?

What would you tell him to do. Selling the z-keys is not an option he wants to pursue and the zaishen points are meaningless to him.

EDIT: I know Inde will probably PM me soon reminding me that I fell into Ensign's trap again, but I hope this time I made I point first :-)

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:09 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

that's what it comes down to then.. I said repeatedly for people that don't care about the title points. It comes down to you being rank 10 and being upset other people are getting those points. Many people don't care about those points.. at all

people that use the service probably could care less about those points..

I don't care about those points.

I someone cares about those points then 13 is less than 1 because that 13 will not get them any points.

you're just sore. I'm sorry but it's the truth. You've skirted every piece of logic in this thread. I agree there's not much more to say..

If you care about the points (IF) then the service is bad - but so is the 13 option - selling to other players.
If you care about cash, then the CHEST is bad.
If you don't care about point and don't care about cash (you want an item from the chest), the service is good unless that item can be bought from another player for less than the cost of it dropping from the chest.

Good luck to you sir, in your search for players who care neither about money, or titles. And would prefer to siphon their money away to random peeps, only so they can Z Rank you in towns with their shiny ranks rather than give it to people who need it, or friends. I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

02 Aug 2009 at 02:15 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

What I fail to understand is how one can value 2 drops higher than 13 of the same drop, for the same price.

Thats not what is happening, the customer values two drops over one drop because 2>1 nothing hard to understand here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

A Drop contains no value, an item does, regardless of what exactly you value it at.

If we define a drop as a variable term used to describe an unknown item which can span from a humble firewater to a godly EL beetle tonic the drop is worth much more than the identified item in most cases. This is the same economic mechanic which manifests itself in the selling of travelers gifts and unopened B-day gifts in the open trade market. You also observed this "travelers effect" in the price of coffers before the devaluation of the Mallyx mini pet.

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 Aug 2009 at 02:16 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Good luck to you sir, in your search for players who care neither about money, or titles. And would prefer to siphon their money away to random peeps, only so they can Z Rank you in towns with their shiny ranks rather than give it to people who need it, or friends. I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

I used Zaishen Services, and I knew perfectly well what I was getting myself into.

I get the double drops, the other guy gets the title, what's bad about that?

"oh hurr durr, you'd get more cash selling the keys". Yes, probably. But I'm a gambler, I like chance, I like getting a lot of money in one drop. Even though I'd probably never get the high-end drop, I still like the feeling of the chest being opened and me getting the double spoils.

This has no correlation with scamming.

TS probably has a job in the statistics circuit.

Engage

Indeed

Join Date: Sep 2007

02 Aug 2009 at 02:18 - 70

The zchest's primary purpose is to sate the appetite of gamblers from across GW; that's its purpose. The title, while important, it is just an added incentive, which imo, is not why most people use the zchest. Most people use it on impulse, to hopefully make a decent buck, which is rarely the case. Given this, if someone wants to go use the zhest and gamble some of their money away, it makes sense to use 2 keys instead of one.

It's like saying 20 peanuts is more than 5. Who can disagree with you? Nobody. But, your argument is solely looking at numbers, and lacks the scope to fully gauge this argument.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:18 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

I think I have hit home base to people who used this service in hopes of making more than they put in, which I would say, based only on the people I have talked to represent the majority of the people using this service.

Good luck convincing anyone that your motives are pure.

The hilarious thing is that you're just hurting yourself. Even if you succeed in your quixotic mission, you would have been far better off keeping your mouth shut and running your own Zaishen service.

You cannot take away the points that others have already gained by running a Zaishen service. You can, however, decrease the efficiency with which you can use keys in the future if this thread successfully influences opinion. Unless you intend to sit at rank 10 Zaishen indefinitely, you're only making your own life harder.

exploiter

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2008

ign Punk Isnt Dead

R/

02 Aug 2009 at 02:23 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

As I said I have more than enough to throw away and service my way to z12. I choose not to.

nice to see you bitching about zaishen services here, since you were offering this service few days ago in game in GTOB. 1 key - 2 drops. at least dont lie..
GL trying to stop people from using it with your nonsense logic

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:25 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Good luck convincing anyone that your motives are pure.

The hilarious thing is that you're just hurting yourself. Even if you succeed in your quixotic mission, you would have been far better off keeping your mouth shut and running your own Zaishen service.

You cannot take away the points that others have already gained by running a Zaishen service. You can, however, decrease the efficiency with which you can use keys in the future if this thread successfully influences opinion. Unless you intend to sit at rank 10 Zaishen indefinitely, you're only making your own life harder.

This is simply a replay of the oldest debate in GW. Essentially what you are saying is Hey, yeah dupes suck but don't QQ about it, just dupe yourself!
Or yeah man SF sucks but hey it rapes UWso ima go abuse it. There is no right or wrong answer there nor a real logical one. This thread is not that argument. This thread is a warning to people currently using/ thinking about using this service.

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:26 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by exploiter

nice to see you bitching about zaishen services here, since you were offering this service few days ago in game in GTOB. 1 key - 2 drops. at least dont lie..
GL trying to stop people from using it with your nonsense logic

I have never even considered offering this service, do not confuse me with Wasabi and others who I know have been doing this.

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 Aug 2009 at 02:27 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

This is simply a replay of the oldest debate in GW. Essentially what you are saying is Hey, yeah dupes suck but don't QQ about it, just dupe yourself!
Or yeah man SF sucks but hey it rapes UWso ima go abuse it. There is no right or wrong answer there nor a real logical one. This thread is not that argument. This thread is a warning to people currently using/ thinking about using this service.

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

I like how you completely throw away the gambling-argument.

Jinkies

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2008

Korea

Peace And Harmony [PnH] War Machine [WM]

02 Aug 2009 at 02:27 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cracko

I like how you completely throw away the gambling-argument.

A lottery is a gamble.
GG

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 Aug 2009 at 02:29 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

A lottery is a gamble.
GG

Sigh...

12chars.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

02 Aug 2009 at 02:34 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Nobody has posted much about if they should continue to be on Guru, they are after all, like everyone mentioned lottery of a sort. And is undeniably against the rules of Ventari.

This is absolutely within the rules of vetari. This is not a lottery, but a trade because a selling of a drop is only selling an unidentified object. As mentioned before as long as the drops are delivered their identified worth is not relevant.

Lux Aeterna

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2009

RAH

Close Enough [XVII]

W/A

02 Aug 2009 at 02:34 - 79

I know someone who provides Zaishen services, and rather than taking zkeys for free he buys them for 2-3k, less than market price, and gives the seller the drops.

When you buy zkeys and open the chest, you're paying large amounts of gold for a title. That's all.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

02 Aug 2009 at 02:35 - 80

Z keys are a gold sync why do you think you should get back a full return on your investment since it's not for an investment anyway it's for a gold sync. Some people just have too much time on their hands and worry too much about what they are getting for their money. We can't help it if you are dumb and put 7500 keys into the game (though I highly doubt you did). You knew Z keys were worth 3.5-4k so you should have just sold them and bought what you wanted. That's what I do.