Zaishen Service The Biggest Scam of GW?

yes, your problem is not really the zaishen service, it's the zaishen chest and the zaishen service "exchange rate"

"you get twice the drops and I get twice the points" seems unfair when drops are that bad, but I'm sure people don't gamble for money

both persons involved have different profiles : one wants the points at a reduced cost, the other likes to gamble even if drops mostly suck, he's not using the zaishen service to make his money back

To me....without making it wordy....its clearly not a scam when both parties agree on the transaction.
But it looks like a poor trade for the player providing a key and only get 50% of its average value back. Personally I wouldnt want to do that, at that rate, but people are free to do as they like. I would want to get at last 3x drops for each key I give, but thats just me^^

its not a scam, its just a ripoff. but some people love popping the chest, so 2 drops is better than 1 for them.

In the end its between the person doing the service and the one buying it. i myself will never use. 1) dont trust easly 2) no zkeys. and i only think its a scam if the person doesnt give the other person their items. now those champ point sellers are the real scammers.

I think at the very least, this thread might help show people that it is more sensible to sell their keys and purchase the items they are hoping for, if they do not care for the title.

Everyone has been saying, "but people love to gamble" as if this were a response to the OPs argument. It is not. "People love to gamble" is descriptive, it describes the current state of things. "People should sell their keys" is prescriptive, it suggests a good course of action. Arguing about how things are and how they ought to be, doesn't really make sense as you guys have set it up here.

Anyways, gl to all those aiming to max the zaishen title, I hope you don't take too much advantage of the folly of poorer players.

I'm sure there's some of that here, but there's a lot more to it.

The OP is trying to project his own attitude towards risk onto the community, and people don't like that.
The OP has taken a very ironic anti-free market stance, and people don't like that.
The OP is playing nanny trying to tell people what is good for them, and people don't like that either.

I'm willing to bet that most of the people posting in this thread defending Zaishen services are rank 3 Zaishen or less, and have no interest in maxing the title.

I don't use zkeys. I burned my 200 so I could add the title to HoM and got jack-all for doing it. Not even a decent weapon mod. The OP is correct that opening the Zaishen chest is still a bad long run gamble even if you use two keys and don't take the title track points. I wouldn't do it.

But some people like risk and like to gamble. I'm not going to sit here and say that the market rate is unfair when the exchange is CLEARLY Pareto-improving for a player that wants chest drops but not title track points, and a player that prefers the opposite. Both players get more of what they want. Who am I to say that the price is unfair?

Sure, I'd never take one side of that trade...but that doesn't mean that the trade is wrong, which is what you and the OP would like to claim. If it were a certainty that the player were getting the worse end of the deal (eg: here, take my q9 insc Fellblade for your q9 insc Crystalline), you'd have a leg to stand on. But there's uncertainty involved.

Same as in the black dye example.... One wants to sell one wants to buy and both parties get profit... But it looks wrong does it? The issue is that the rank increase can have a monetary value. In my opinion OP proposal for 3:1 is more reasonable than 1:1. Here you just assumed that
1 increase in rank=1 drop.

It is subjective. For you and many others it is ok. For me and some people it is not. Therefore I will not use service with such exchange rate. One of the first z-services was offering even 4:1. It my opinion it was much more fair. This one I was inclined to use. In 4:1 both parties gain as well.

For me it does matter for many others as well. Why do you assume everyone does as you do? If someone likes to spent 4k on zkey to get drop probably worth 600g it is their own choice indeed. In most of the z-services he will get two drops instead of one. So he gets twice as much. Agreed. But he is still loosing money... The issue is how much are zrank points actually worth. As I wrote above 3:1 is in my opinion more fair. You are arguing that loosing 2k is better than loosing 3k. Agreed. but what I am saying is that there is no need to loose at all. If someone does not care. Great for him and current z-serices!
I do care. So do not speak for me.


Zkeys price depends NOT on the drops but on their supply. When XTH went down their price went up again. Drops did not change. But in general I agree with you here.

Personal attacks do not make your arguments more valid.

Read again my example with black dye. This is exactly the same mechanism working. However people do think it is a scam why? People buying blacks for 100g argue that they just offer what others are willing to accept and offer more than a available merchant... They use exactly the same arguments you use and which are in this thread.

It is not clearly pareto improving since service provider may steal the drops. Actually by using the service you need to take into consideration loosing your keys and not getting anything at all....You assumed that service provider is honest. I would like to see what would happen if r9 obby edge was dropped... Some of z-services in GTOB are farming z-keys for sale from unexpecting people. It pays off for more than 50 keys (real money price of 50 zkeys=gw account last time I checked). Smart seller will be using one by one but many does not do it. Also not everyone uses services from GURU.

Some people want Creme Brulee's from the chest, some towns are so big you need them.

In the end it's a gold sink for people who have a compulsion to spend money.

Go out there as a party with the service provider. Screenie the agreement. Screenie if he steals anything. Report for scamming with evidence (ie: player scoops drops) if needed.

Since the contract is enforceable, this isn't as large of an issue as you might think. Also, most of the Zaishen service providers value their reputations, since honestly providing the drops leads to recommendations and more business.

Not saying that it can't happen, but the incentives are for the service provider to be honest, and you can protect yourself further by being intelligent about verifying the honesty of the provider.

Change "maybe" to "certainly", "normal" to "double", and "honorable" to "unwise" if you want to be honest.

And change thread title to: "Why I'm upset about paying double for a title and emote."

Then we might have a reasonable discussion.

There are going to be players wasting keys on the chest and not caring about the title even if this service DOESN'T exist.

With it, those players who open for the sake of opening, get a benefit (2 drops) and the person opening maxes their shitty pointless $4000 USD title.

I just sold my zkeys for 4k ea. Am i going to get reported for costing the guy who used the key 3.4k?

The fact you sold your key, and did not "Service" it is an indicator to me, that my message has gotten across. Regardless of whether or not you realize it in your brain.

Oh but if i wanted drops i would use the service.


TBH, anyone with half a brain would realize that
A) Using zchest is a waste of money, unless you want big spears tht fly from the sky. Unless your some insane lucky guy who wins the lottery 6 times and their spouse 2 times....
B) Services are not a scam. Yes, you loose money, but people are allowed to waste their money how they want. Selling ectos to a guy going to get fow armor isn't scamming because he's going to loose all his money to the armourer.


I was going to blame your post to the fact that you are angry that you spent 2X as much on your title, but then i realized you probably don't care that much about money xD.

Or that he wanted money instead of the title or the drop. You argue like an arrogant asshole, which is hilarious because everyone else knows you're wrong.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=3856187&pp=25

For anyone who may care, this is just a +1 thread for the OP. The discussion is crap, seriously, because everyone except OP realizes what a mutually beneficial service is. He/she/it/shit's just goading everyone on so OP can buff OP's PC.

When are you gonna get it through your head that everyone else is right and your wrong? Selling keys/ectos/etc is essentially a service because you are taking the time to farm such items, and the person buying would not have to. I agree its a ripoff but not a scam. Some people like to gamble, give it up dude your making yourself look like a jackass.

Your post is nothing but a personal attack and a repitition of what has aleady been said. If you are incabable or reading, or just didn't even bother reading my 1st post then you are wasting your time giving this topic free bumps.

Your poor excuse at an answer makes it obvious you didn't even read my original post. My issue is clearly how much of an advantage Zaishen Service people have over regular players and their clients. Not whether gambling is good or not. As i have said before i have pointed out more reasonable gambling odds, the fact that the odds arent even close to what's mathmatically fair makes it obvious this is a scam. Players are fooled into thinking that maybe.. if they are super lucky they will win. But even most of the luckiest people will lose here because the odds are so bad. Sure people like to gamble, but this isnt a gamble this is a lose, lose situation. Anyone that can do basic math sees that.

Thus the answer is simple, use the keys like they were meant to be used, or sell them. In the event that people want to gamble give them fairer odds.

And I'm really not wrong.. my math doesn't lie you cannot argue that at this exchnage rate, the service is mutully beneficial. Just because you disagree with the google defintion - that scam invloves deciet - does not mean that this is not an issue.

Your logic is flawed. Really.

Using a key=-4k to you.

Using a service (assuming you don't want the title) =-2k for you.

So you pay 2k per key instead of 4k. IF your set on gambling and using the chest, your saving lots and lots of money.

The amount I paid is quite trivial, 5500 ecto won't get you far in GW anymore. Anyone who knows me would know the amount I paid is not the issue. I have more than enough to do nearly whatever I want, whenever I want. Now if you are arguing that I am angry other people spent half as much on the title, then you might have an argument.

my primary concerns include how much of an advantage z service people have over everyone who uses the service or has bought z rank, and how much money clients are losing in this sub par return rate.

Give it up, in a battle of wits you came to this thread unarmed and unprepared. The more you try to convince anyone the dumber you look. This thread is hilarious.

How can you claim this to be mutually beneficial? In order for it to be purely mutually benefial te exchange rate would be 1 client key for every 3 provider keys. neither party would make or lose money, statistically. But.... the client would get plenty of drops for his key, and the provider would get 5 points free for every 3 keys he used, in addition he wouldnt have to waste his time selling drops and this would speed his title up immensly.

For that rate it IS mutually benefial because both parties get exactly what they want and it benefits them both for a variety of reasons. At the rate it is now it is NOT mutually benefical.

Alright, say that people magily get your message and realise that they loose like 25% of their money. Say that people do read this post and understand it.

You think it'll stop? No. As i said before, some people do not care about big flashy numbers and spears falling from the sky. Some people like gambling, and some people like capitilazing on the gambling.

I don't know how old you are, but i can tell you that you can look at zchest services and think they are morally wrong, you can also look at casinos and think the same thing. Are casinos outlawed? Nope. Do they do the same thing? Yep, 100 fold.

People know that there is loss involved, yet they still do it. IT'S FUN! (To some people).

so... you're saying it is not mutually beneficial, because one party is benefited more than the other. however, you've also admits that both parties are benefited in some way....

you sir, needs to understand what "mutually beneficial" means.

Wrong, 2 times the drop rates, 2 times the points.

increase creme brulee and firewater drop rate imo

So basically you are now sng I'm right.. but think that most people are too stupid to care?

Well I would agree with that, except that despite the fact they disagree with my labeling it a scam, which imo still stands, none of them would ever consider using this service, especially after crunching the numbers. Gambling would be just as fun if not more if the amount they lost was not so extreme. and tbh the posters do not represent the majority of the people in gw, or even the people reading this thread. I know my message has gotten through because of the bulk pms I have recieved thanking me for making this thread. Byteme's invective verbal attacks don't add anything to the thread except a free bump. Maybe he is mad because the Kanaxai in his avatar is the same one sitting in my inventory.

Perhaps you sir need to learn what Mutually and Beneficial mean. let me break it down nice and easy.

Mutually - felt by each

Beneficial - advantage, something that has a good effect

what you fail to understand is that the client is not being Benefited because he is eneding up with less than he started with.
with the other exchange rate both parties are being benefited. Though it is still slightly in the providers favor because he cannot lose.. though the client can win and lose and will pretty much just remain where he started also

so let me get this straight: the "client" gives up one key, but gets twice the drops. had the "client" use the key himself, he would only get one drop. two drops, versus one drop, for the same number of keys used. clearly, this is a gain.

the "provider", without spending any additional cash, is now rewarded with 2x points for every one of his keys, instead of just 1x points. 2x points, versus 1x points. clearly, this is a gain.

since we've established that both parties have gained, we can also conclude that both have been benefited. this means that this arrangement is mutually beneficial. qed.

Wrong, you assume 1 drop = 1x points. If that were the case then people would just open chests normally and not even bother with the service.

Since prices on most items remain relativly constant day by day, though are subject to change over time.. we can assume the current price of a z key is 4k, and that the average value of a chest drop is 1k

thus, the client is rewarded with 2k and no points as opposed to 1k and 4k worth of points, clearly he is not being benefited

meanwhile the provider is rewarded with 8k worth of points, but no 1k worth of drops, clearly he is making, bank, where points are concered off the unluky victom client.

Now if it was 1 client key per 3 provider things would be different:

Client gets 4k instead of 4k with a chance of making more, and an equal chance of making less

Provider gets 20k points instead of 15k points and spending 4k to get another 5 points. But he maxes his z rank sooner because he is not subject to the chance of him losing more than 75% of what he puts in. And does not deal with the time spend to sell all those drops, which btw takes a loooooong time.

now thats what i call mutually beneficial!

Admin Edit: Please stop double posting. You are able to edit your post and add to it.

ah, so you've arbitrarily adding the price of zkeys into the mix.

here's a newsflash for you: the people who will engage as the "client" have no interest in the points, nor the supposed value of the zkeys. otherwise, those people would've either used the keys themselves, or sold them for the gold. the "clients" are interested in getting the drops. this is economically beneficial, because the "clients" would've probably BOUGHT those keys at 4k each, and are getting double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized.

the people who would engage as the "provider" are interested only in the points. they, like the "clients", probably bought those keys at 4k each, and are also gaining double the benefits for their investment. clearly, they are not being victimized either; and judging by how the "clients" are also benefiting, the "providers" are definitely not being abusive.

you've reasoning is only sound only if you completely mistook the motives for engaging in this arrangement in the first place, which you've done so. clearly, you do not understand nor appreciate the fact that not everyone is interested in pure monetary gains.

it's late (or early, depending on your perspective), and i have no desire to have a debate when one party is effectively debating something else entirely. 'night to you all, and have fun arguing in circles.

Your reasoning is sound only if you mistook the motives the majority of the players have for entering this engagment in the first place. You assume everyone in GW is smart, and that there are no stupid people who might have otherwise been victomized, I know it has already happend in the majority of the cases. You also assume there are alot of people who really want to throw all their money away in such a.. imo.. stupid manner. I'm pretty sure people wanting to get rid of money would just open z chest themselves.. and get title or give thir money to their friends. It is late i agree so I am off to bed too.

To elaborate on the logical fallacies, that is how the zaishen chest works. Or in fact, that is how any gambling works. If you've taken any sort of probability, you would know that the expected value of the return is going to be lower than what you pay initially for these gambling activities, which means you're operating on a loss every time you gamble.

The zaishen service is actually doubling your expected value of return, but that doesn't make it higher than the cost of the key because of the nature of the gambling system guild wars has set up. The only reason to open the chest is for the title. If you're thinking about making money off the chest consistently, then good luck with that. I would suggest some more schooling first.

As long as the original post is, I don't see how this isn't simply a baseless QQ thread.

Please tell me: Which kind of gambling has the odds of winning that does MEET with the amount of money you are likely to put in?

Not counting the times when you get lucky (as you stated above) of course.

Maybe I should go back to school myself. If you ignore the "luck" factor, what would be the factor that causes you to "win" or "lose" in gambling? Enlighten me, o wise one.

Stats? Please.

One party wants and gets 2x the points.

One party wants and gets 2x the drops.

Seems fine to me, don't like it don't use it.

Seems to be that the Title point seeker is the one who is basically ripping themselves off. This is what basically happens:

1) They pay 4k for a key
2) they find someone to go with them to chest
3) they take a 2nd key from other player
4) they open chest with both keys
5) they leave so other player gets the drops

How does this make any sense? That title you are so proud of does NOTHING to change your gameplay. This seems utterly preposterous to me. So in my mind the one giving the service is the one that is completely on the short end of the stick here. They just spent 4k on absolutely nothing. Want to max a title? Good lord there are cheaper ones than this one!

Shut down the Xunlai Tournament House permanently and make sure that Zaishen Keys can not be traded and must be earned on your own account. Lower the title max rank a bit. Anet should have done that from the start offcourse... now it's too late and we have plenty of epic losers buying ranks that mean nothing. But since I don't really care I can only smile.

Seems to me that everyone understands what the OP is saying, but it's the OP that doesn't understand what the rest of us are saying.

QFT. After posts from today I have the same impression

This sums it up quite nicely

if anything, i think the OP has an ulterior motive: he sells zkeys, and this "service" effectively cuts his clientèle by half; only half as many keys for either party are needed to fulfill what they want.

i'll repeat what i said: you seem to be completely (and i mean, COMPLETELY) incapable of realizing that people are NOT doing this for pure monetary gains. you might find it hard to believe, but many of us see no need to chase after a virtual currency.

Lol. It is not a scam, it is *usually* a bad deal to use these "services".
Player A likes to gamble, letting player B open the chest he get's 2X the gamble on a good drop. Player A could get lucky drops or crappy drops. It is still a gamble and one that's designed (aren't they all) to make you loose on the long run.