What needs to be done to fix dervishes?

Not so much a suggestion as a way to get the community's opinion as a whole on this issue, because I've seen people say several different things about how to make the dervish compete with the sin and warrior (both in wielding scythes and in general). I figure future suggestions on the matter might garner more support if they appeal to people's ideas on what should be done.

Give them a consistent way to manage energy and make the effects of mysticism useful. There's great skills in mysticism, just the effect of the actual attribute is absolutely terrible and very inconsistent.

So what i'll say, is find a way to have mysticism contribute to managing energy well.

They should make the energy gain from mysticism occur when an enchantment is cast, not when it ends.

I posted this earlier in another thread.
Note that the attributes arranged in investment like 0..12..16

Uhhhh.. I Didn't know Dervishes were broken. I've been playing mine since NF came out, nothing wrong with him.

The problem is that dervishes suck. Outside of a very small number of very niche builds, anything a D/X can do a W/D or A/D can do better, because they can use the dervish's skills better than the dervish can. Read a few threads in the dervish section of the campfire and you'll see what I mean. It's really quite sad.

Interesting topic. So you want to make dervishes not suck?...

First and foremost, remove the silly damage type conversion from AoHM and the avatar skills so that dervishes can participate in the MoP/Barbs/Orders(/GDW/SoH/etc.) paradigm that makes physicals king of damage in GW. That alone would probably make them worth using.

Second, a decent IAS skill.

Third, something to bring up adrenaline speed for SY! spamming.

Fourth, some knockdown would be nice.

Increase their armor to that of warriors. and reduce the armor buffs of their skills to compensate for balance issues.

Anet needs to decide which concept the derv should stick to. Either keeping enchantments up, or stripping them. The way they are now they have mixed concept skills that contradict each other. For example you have a good set of enchantment skills that are worth keeping up, yet the attack skills that benefits from enchantments are crap. There are great attack skills, but they need to disenchant in order for the skills to work properly and the enchantment skills the dervs can afford to lose are crap. Either the ending effects does little, or the enchant takes long to charge, but the attack skills that should syncro with those enchantments charge quicker. Basically they made the dervishes deal with builds that can only have one or a few good derv skills mixed with really awful skills. If that was supposed to balance the dervs so they won't be op, well, guess what; it just made the dervs a real crappy class over all.

I get the impression that the dervs were a mistake class anet made because the general concept can only yield two ways. Either they can suck, or be over powered because if they fix every prob there is on the dervs, even though it's only for PvE, the class would overall be over powered and dominate PvE in any which way. I know the same goes for every other class in the game, but this is such a delicate class that if one perfect skill is changed there goes the dervs usefulness. Period.

This is not to say they are weak in everything, really. They do good in some ways and still be crucial for a team, provided that there's a team build that works with a derv. This class is less favored because it has the least uses than all the other classes. It even gets out ranked by tanks, which is what this class was supposed to replace. How sad.

Change the concept of the Dervs. That's the only reasonable change Anet can do for it. Make it so ALL skills work well together, not force the derv to have one good skill with many crappy ones because it would be the only choice for the derv to make a "decent" build.

Me likey the AoB ^^

Well, Mesmers have a similar issue - some of their skills are ones where they want to let the enemy do their thing and get punished for it, others stop the enemy from doing so. It does essentially split the Dervish into to subprofessions, though - one that wants to keep the enchantments up and fights in a fairly conventional manner, one that throws enchantments off and tends to play like a PBAOE bomb with a suitable melee weapon.

My answer is "give it a niche". This will probably involve buffing - it HAS a niche (dedicated PBAOE specialist) but that's been nerfed both directly and by comparison with other builds that have been buffed. However, if it's just buffed without something that makes it special, then we may just have the Dervish remain underpowered until the balance point is crossed and suddenly it's the Dervish that's overpowered and the others that are weak in comparison.

Mysticism doesn't grant half as much energy on a dervish as Critical Strikes grant on an Assassin or Expertise reduces by for Rangers. The small heal is almost insignificant. The only thing Mysticism is good for right now is Arcane Orders or Patient Spirit spamming.

i absolutely adore my dervish and he is fun to play, but the problem is that he isnt rly profitable besides droks running. They need to make dervs be able to farm something. Im not talking being able to destroy everything in DoA, but something which would make them worth all the time i put into mine. They definitely do need to buff them above other scythe wielders, b/c they rly cant compare to a/d or w/d. I dont rly care whether they change a/d or w/d provided they give dervs a good buff like they did rits

well, make mysticism usefull, its really really useless.
i have a derv, and mysticism makes my cry every time i see it.
skills in it are nice, effect is lame.
for every rank in mysticism you get 10 health when you cast an enchantment and for every 2 ranks 1 energy when an enchantment ends.
healing when you cast, energy when it ends, and an decent amouth, not freaking 15 health.
maybe 10 is a bit much and 5 is better.

Hrrmn. Maybe an inbuilt Symbiosis-like effect? Give the Dervish a bonus to max health equal to the amount they heal when the enchantment ends?

(And, in case it isn't clear, keeping the heal at the end, so they don't die from enchantment-stripping when at low health.)

I personally don't see a problem with Dervishes, I think they function perfectly well. But, there are builds that cause certain build to outweigh the Dervish. So I suggest minor buffs, specifically to Mysticism. But it would need to be a buff that isn't overpowered and something that balances out the Dervish to an average level (in relation to other professions). I think they are pretty decently balanced as is, but they could use a small buff I guess.

Nothing wrong with mysticism but the skills which interact with mysticism are doing so very poorly. Dervish should be self ripping their own enchantments, not trying to cover it. Anet should provide incentives to encourage this playstyle by reworking the end effects of short recharge enchantments, give bonus for removing long recharge enchantments prematurely and empower the effects of self enchantment removal skills upon an enchantment is sacrificed.

Zealous Vow+Vamp Scythe+Mystic Vigor+AoHM=wtfpwnage

Mystic Vigor? wat. Use a monk. Also sins do it better whilst being able to take DW that doesn't strip an enchantment and not taking up an elite skill because their primary attrib is actually good.
Wounding Strike+Vamp Scythe+Way of the Master+AoHM=wtfpawnage

Dervishes already have inbuild "symbiosis effect" - their armor has inherent +25 hp efect.

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Anyhow, If we are talking PvE imba i would like this: "While you are enchanted, each time your attack skill hits more that one foe, you gain 1 energy and 5 health for each foe per 8 points of mysticism".

will not upset pvp (unless oppositon is really dumb)

is more in line with how dervishes are played, gives enough energy to wtfspam attacks just like endurance warrior. as bonus, will be able to wtfabuse axe aoes.

So they can move in on the Warrior's territory? I don't think so. They need to find their own niche in the game, and buffing their armor so they can step up to a tank rank is not the answer - even if they did get nerfed on their skills.

Warriors get shields. Although I think a buff to 75 AL would be enough.

the main problem with dervs is that they don't have a niche. warriors and assassins occupy the same niche as dervs. indeed, dervs seems to be nothing more than a mending wammo on steroids.

with 9 professions excluding dervishes, i don't really see another niche that dervs can occupy. i think anet agrees with that too, which is why the derv has been left to rot.

Stop assuming that dervishes are 'broken'

Yes they are ill used, this is due to efficiency and effectiveness. They are plenty effective against the PvE environment, but they aren't as effective and as efficient as other classes. Buff dervishes and they'd push something else out. But the issue really isn't with dervishes being overpowered, its that dervishes aren't as overpowered as the other builds.

Same could be said of Rits pre-buff.



Anyway, here are some things that could possibly be done for Dervishes that'd make them worth using IMO (With PvE in mind):

- Bring back Enchantment juggling. Revert Pious Assault and possibly shred a few of seconds from skills like Heart of Holy Flame, Grenth's fingers, Dust Cloak, Ect
-Buff Avatar of Balthazar
-Buff Myticism's inherent effect (not a must, but it'd be nice.)
-Make HoF maintainable
-Remove disabling of forms
-Give dervs a reason to use Wind Prayers other then Attacker's Insight
-Make Vow of Strength usable again, buff Grenth's Grasp and Onslaught. Onslaught especially.

Frontline AoE disruption/pressure. Pressure as in effects like daze, knockdown or interruption given from ending of short enchantments. This will place high emphasis on positioning to avoid the adjacent/nearby ending effects of the dervish enchantments. Think of them like a living walking trap.

Scythes are pretty freaking strong in PvE. Just knock AoHM out of war/sin's reach (mysticism duration, no damage conversion) and there will be enough reason right there.

Fixing them in PvP is an entirely other pursuit, nothing short of a complete overhaul will do.

And it is a vicious circle. Lets always buff the least used classes. Too bad there is always going to be a least used class.

By and large the reason classes aren't being used isn't because they are underpowered compared to the game's difficulty, but underpowered compared to the other overpowered classes. Unfortunately by and large the PvE community can't stand nerfs as it appears to them as Anet taking something away from them.

Currently, every profession has a reason to be used, except the dervish. That's the problem that needs to be remedied. Dervishes should be the best melee AoE class, but they aren't. If they were the best scythe users, that would fix it. The easiest way would be to nerf AoHM for everyone else, but as it turns out, the fun of the few scythe warriors and scythe sins is more important than the fun of all the primary dervishes (well, that's what a good portion of the people taking the poll seem to think, at least).

I think it's worth bringing up, though, that simply reverting Pious Assault would change nothing. Warriors and Assassins would just start using it, and they'd still beat the dervish at his own game. Unless all the enchantments to be used with it were changed to give dervishes a huge advantage with them over dervish secondaries, then there's little point in changing Pious Assault.

I agree that armor is not the way to go, because it doesn't feel right for the profession, but you have to remember, as it stands now, Warriors and Assassins are doing exactly that to the dervish. How would you feel if your necromancer was suddenly pointless because an Elementalist could use all of your skills better than you could because someone found out Energy Storage synergizes with necro skills better than SR? Or if you were a Ranger and a Monk could suddenly outshoot you with a bow? Or if you were an Assassin and a Paragon could use daggers better than you could? Or if you were a Warrior and someone discovered that Ritualists could tank better than you could while using all of your weapons better than you?

You wouldn't like that very much, would you? No, of course you wouldn't. You'd want those guys moving in on your territory to get slapped silly with the nerfbat, or you'd want to get buffed so that you could reclaim your niche from those thieves. Or, if all else failed, you'd want to be given a new niche that those other guys couldn't take away from you.

So, then, why do you want to deny us dervishes that? How come we don't get the same rights and privileges that you guys enjoy? How come we have to suck while you get to be secure in the knowledge that you are more useful to your party than any other profession that tries to do your job?

It's class discrimination, that's what it is!

You're all meanies!

*runs away sobbing*

A warrior TECHNICALLY is better than a sin with daggers due to AP ^^

Critical Strikes says hi.

Please tell me that was a joke so I can laugh.

...please Kain

Assassins are better Earth Shakers because of Critical Strikes

It's not about what class gets the 'least use', and this isn't about buffing dervishes because they are the 'least used' class.

This is about buffing dervishes because the ONLY thing they excel at doing that is unique to their class is Orders and Forms. Forms of which are reduiced to use in certain areas (melandru for condition heavy, ect). Wounding Strike does not count because, in fact, Assassins can do it too. and better.

And this also isn't so much about buffing dervishes because other classes are better, so much as buffing dervishes because they aren't even the best AT THEIR OWN WEAPON.

Now on that arguement, it could be argued that Assassins and warriors run Spears better, but you don't see paragons complaining because they aren't focused on chucking spears. they are party support.

Right now, the dervish IS NOT underpowered persay, there's just no logical reason to use them, save die hard fans and such.

Or...you know, you could avoid the whole "My scythe is bigger than yours" one-upmanship altogether, and actually try to make Dervishes different.

Like focusing on what Dervishes are designed to be in combat, which is close range enchantment spamming. AKA, something that all the other classes aren't capable of.

Yes because like we all know , being a melee char is about that , spamming close range enchantment . It gives you an automatic 150+dps and thats why they are better are used more often than warriors and sins
.....
oh wait.

A main att that doesnt give +dmg , or helps pumping up dps ( greatly ) is not good for a melee , if they fix mysticism , things will change a lot for D's and thats a fact.

That's just an almost inconsequential hit point bonus. I was thinking something like Symbiosis that stacks on more hit points as enchantments get added. Even at just one point per rank, that would start geting significant at around 3-4 enchantments.

People used point-blank area-of-effects before the Dervish existed, as Elementalist primaries and secondaries. 'Course, that was also before HM...

Still, the point is that the Dervish may not be supposed to be a physical class, but a PBAOE spellcaster that uses a melee weapon because it's convenient. Dervishes don't need to be the king of scythes to be viable - they just need to be the best at what they do (and what they do needs to be a viable strategy).

Mysticism may not help with hitting people with scythes, but it does help with firing off PBAOE damage and conditions in quick succession. Maybe Mysticism could stand to be better, maybe the offensive enchantments could stand to be better, but I don't think Mysticism has to be made to directly influence damage like Strength and Critical Strikes does. After all, if all you're doing with your dervish is swinging the scythe, then really you ARE playing a Warrior or Assassin with a scythe and not a dervish... and it's probably not so much of a surprise that the W/D or A/D is more effective at, well, playing like a W/D or A/D.

Thats a big guess , based only on the way D is now , i GUESS we will never know what Anet had in mind . Btw i dont see how a scythe is chosen to be a D weapon if its main goal is to spam PBaoE , poor choice imho.

The problem is , taking D as a melee scythe killer or as a melee enchant pbaoe spammer , mysticism doesnt realy BOOST either. Str affects DIRECTLY damage done on skills and CStrikes affects DIRECTLY on damage done and e-management but Mysticism only HELPS to D's e-management that HELPS to spam pbaoe ench that HELPS to do damage while you are in melee range. See my point ?

After all if you play your Dervish WITHOUT swinging a scythe you are playing like a caster or like the main user of the weapon you are using instead of the Scythe. The point is that no prof is only "a weapon swinger" , Assassins can play as a D and even as a caster with D.Arts and S.arts attributes but is not its main function.

No one is saying they cant but at least they SHOULD have a main att that directly affects them when they are using the weapon they are meant to use. Imho Mysticism can be compared to a secondary att like deadly arts +benefits of a main att but is VERY poor as a main att .

Keeps them in melee range, where they want to be to use their spells, and having a weapon that strikes multiple targets synergises well with spells that hit multiple targets. Seems a pretty good fit to me.

Energy Storage doesn't boost an Elementalist's damage either. Nor does Soul Reaping. Instead, they provide energy that each profession can use to cast spells to kill things. Mysticism is aimed at doing the same.

In fact, even among physical damage dealers, Rangers don't get a damage increase from their primary either, even if they're focused on damage rather than disruption. Instead, just like Energy Storage, Soul Reaping and Mysticism, the Ranger primary helps in energy management. Now, you could argue that Mysticism isn't as good at energy management as other e-management primaries, but maybe that means it just needs to be made better at what it does rather than reworked entirely.

Because PBAoE effects coupled with the ridiculous mechanism of scythe is enough to put any team on high alert. The current skills given have completely skewed people's concept of the profession.

Looking at the old Pious Assault and the end effects of short recharge enchantments like Aura of Thorns has shed plenty of insight how Anet wishes dervish to be played; which is to cast an offensive enchantment from time to time instead of casting multiple enchantments in succession and remove it via attack skills when adjacent to a target to weaken it. However this purpose is defeated with gimmick skills like Mystic Sandstorm and threadbare incentives to remove enchantments prematurely.

This is where Anet's concept flops horribly. They fail to realise the last thing a dervish needs is damage from his enchantments when the scythe can score big numbers. What is needed is changing the end effects of short recharge enchantments to powerful utility effects like point blank adjacent KD or short daze duration.

The whole misconception dervish is a martial profession is stem from the mistakes Anet made in 'marketing' this profession through gimmick skills like their avatars instead of the profession's mechanics. And the dervish enchantments aren't a saving grace either when they throw in some easily applicable conditions as ending effects of the short recharge enchantments. Then the players are forced to try to prolong and cover their enchantments when there are very little incentives provided to remove it prematurely in order to fully utilise mysticism. Hence, we have come to this stage where we think mysticism is rubbish when the real culprits are dervish skills.

I just don't think dervish should be balance along the lines of warrior and assassin but against the ranger.