Will nerfing SF really help anything to do with the game?

It's not profitable because it was too easy to farm greens and golds. People don't even want the skins.
Why not.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HHAAHHAHAHAHAHA
Well, I can't go into groups without being an Assassin. And notice that the ecto prices shake whenever there's a rumour about an incoming nerf. Also all the farming in dungeons make it useless for normal teams to try and do it, because a single assassin will kill boss faster without killing even 10% of the monsters in the dungeon.
Do I really have to comment on quality of F2P games?

When people play team-based games, they like feeling useful. Very few people can have fun if they don't feel like they are useful in some way.

If you are not running SF, you are not useful. SF > every other build.

So, yes, SF does say to us "do use it". Or, more specifically, it says "use SF or suck".

We don't want to suck, but we also don't want to be forced to use SF to do it. And we shouldn't have to. This is a game with multiple classes. Each of them is supposed to be useful.

The existence of SF and the existence of all these other classes are in direct opposition to one another. If SF is fine, then these other classes should not exist in the game, since they serve no purpose. If these other classes belong in the game, then SF (in it's current form) should not exist.

Let me put it this way. Let's say that there was a new profession introduced called X. it has unique mechanics and limitations on what skills it can take. So, you go to make one. Then, let's say it turns out that this is the best build possible for X:

Mending
Vengeance
Resurrection Signet
Rebirth
Resurrect
Sunspear Rebirth Signet
Protective Bond
Retribution

Seems crappy, right? In fact, it's so crappy that there's no point in ever using it. Whether you can get through the game or not with it is irrelevant. It sucks, and there's no reason to ever use it. And if this is the best that profession X can offer, then there's no point to profession X either, now is there? It makes you wonder why they even bothered to put it into the game. It's just a waste of memory.

Guess what? When compared to SF, every other profession might as well be X. That's how much better SF is than everything else.

This is the problem with SF. As long as it remains the way it is, there is literally no reason to ever play any other profession.

The name of the game is "Guild Wars", not "Shadow Form Assassin Wars".

The question on the table was: how can you make money faster than UWSC? The fact that you're even mentioning feather farming or lockpick/tome farming proves that you don't have a clue. None of the alternatives you put forward is faster at money generation than the old UWSC was. I haven't touched UW in so long that I can't give you numbers on the post-Skeleton UWSC. But I promise you that dungeon running with SF is alive and well, and much more profitable than what you're doing. I'm willing to bet that eight-player SoOSC still gives better returns over the time if you don't mind the variance, and the FoWSC groups probably beat the pants off of you as well.

Also a good reason of why feather farming is so profitable is because of Shadow Form

Ruby/Diamond farming is profitable because of Shadow Form.
Runs are profitable because of Shadow Form.


It's the skill of 101 uses, just nerf it so I can have a harder game and shit on everyones elses playstyle

But the thing is, even without shadow form, there will still be ways to farm UW, and then you run into the same thing, people want only certain classes and builds. So either way, you are gonna run into the same problem, only certain classes are allowed to play UW.

And a note on Perma sins being not fun, actually it's not too bad, depends on the person, since running mtn/pools never gets old for me.

But without Shadow Form, people would actually have to use builds that can be countered by UW monsters.

Obsidian Flesh? Dazed, Interrupts, Conditions still all apply. And huge damage on HM. Spell Breaker? Can't be maintained without QZ. And can be interrupted/dazed.

Note that every single class, even Paragons and Dervishes, can solo farm in UW something. Smites, Wastes. But only an Assassin has a build that with minor modifications can run in any of those areas. 8 Assassins can clear UW with little to no problems. 8 monks? No. 8 Elementalists? No.

Hell, even normal teams have problems, because SF just makes you ignore 90% of the monsters and laugh at them. Without losing mobility like Obsidian or being vulnerable to conditions and interrupts like Spell Breaker. SF is Protective Spirit, Healing Breeze/Spirit Bond and Spell Breaker IN ONE SPELL. Plus add immunity to physical attacks.

UW groups only wanting certain builds is not really a problem. Is it less desirable than a wide variety of viable builds? Certainly. But if every class has one such build, then at least everyone is useful.

Now, certain classes not being desired at all in the UW is a problem. But 2 or 3 desirable classes in the UW is certainly better than 1.

Also, you're not understanding the scope of all this. This isn't about UW. This is about all of PvE. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal if one class can solo farm a couple of areas (see 55 monks) . But when one class can curbstomp everything in the game to the point that there's no reason to ever use any other class, then there is a problem big enough to drive a cement truck through. That is the current SF.

It's a good thing ANet doesn't (didn't? ) share your views on OP builds - otherwise Ursan would still be alive and well.

Although above I must say 'didn't' as I'm not so sure ANet really cares about balance anymore - since SF abuse is still running rampant through PVE-land.

Further, what kills me is how ANet nerfed Essence of Celerity juuuuusst to the point where only assassins (by just using DP) may still perma-SF - wtf?? Come on ANet - if you're not going to touch SF any further (which I really doubt they will) then to be fair, at least revert the Essence nerf and let the other classes in on godmode too! Right off the bat, this would allow monks to do SoOSC, eles to do FoWSC, etc, etc.

This would be much, much better than the 'sin only' approach we have now. Now understand I'd rather have SF nerf-batted to hell, but if this doesn't happen then the other classes really should be allowed to have godmode too...

100% agree

Though I don't think nerfing SF will actually do anything for the game (the economy and pugging aree trains that have already left the station and ain't comin back) I do agree it is overpowered.

And If they are not going to nerf it, at least let other profs in on the farming.

hello everyone your attention if you please ive got something that might interest you, ectos ive seen were as of late higher then they have been in a long time. 7.5k at trader and if it stayed that for long ectos from players would probably grow to 6.5k or possibly 7k because hey we all like profit. and you might say oh its just because some rich people are hording all their ectos but if u belive that you are truly kidding yourself have you not seen kamadan? trade has not changed in the least their and ive seen more high end trades then ever as of late and to others who dont see this as a bad thing i would like to see how you would react if whatever ectos shards or other items you have dissapeared and you had to start over because im sure you wouldnt then be to happy about how high ecto prices. this is going to greatly influence the GW economy yes it might be for the better at first get people to spread some ectos again for some profit but if it keeps up the rich will just keep getting richer and widening the gap making the new people with a disadvantage more then theve ever had before because how long before mony is a status symbol allowing you into groups? how long before gold value itself deflates untill 1 platnum is nothing? i think Gw finally should band together as a community and work on how to fix this problem and please stop complaining about clears. monks run duengons for 10k a person in some instances and you hear no complainers i dont have a monk but i have no grudge against them yet with sins i have a perma myself ive only been able to speed clear the underword twice and i only got an ecto from the end chest one ecto for those two runs you see this? monks are much better off but for some reason we pick on sins before i had a sin i never had a problem with it and i dont have a problem with monks so why dont we all try to get over our phobias of you know letting newer players get rich and keep the feild level. and if ectos were to go up in value i personally would benefit but what would be the point? to have a bunch of new players hate you out of jealosy as your old friends leave the game?

with the change to uw its proven you dont have to nerf a skill to effect the price of something

sure go ahead tom i like the idea instead of killing shadow form let every1 use it and you know what? people might make mony instead of mostly monks (do not say monks dont make mony, from the start of GW they have been a staple of the community because they are always needed)

you have some good points. but why defend this build? what makes this build so different in all its magestic wonder that warrants a pardon? every other solo build, that has been effective, has been nerfed in some way that makes it very much harder to use or limits its use to a degree that people aren't jumping on the bandwagon to start their careers in soloing. monks cannot simply go in to any area and decide to SC. sins can. eles cant either. sins can. hmmm.. no other prof can, but... you guessed it, sins can.

if nerfing this build can change the price of ectos so dramatically after all this time then maybe it needs to be evaluated even more closely. seriously? one build regulates ecto price? hahahahahahahahahaha dont try and sound like you care about the new and poor players.... thats a common democratic strategy and it doesn't work here. there is no democracy... you think because you had it easy that they should too? well I think because I didn't have it easy that they should not. sure I found a way to acquire a lot of gold... but I chose something that wont get nerfed so its very slow going. I rely on events to make my gold actually.
SC is frowned upon for a reason... it keeps people from playing the game as planned. if you can't because you are weak then you simply can't. it shouldn't be "if you can't because you are weak then... YOU CAN JUST PAY FOR IT!"
bottom line is... Anet doesn't necessarily have to nerf this build... but why nerf everything else that wasn't even as good and then leave one alone?

Monks are always running duengons no their not speed clearing but they are used for vale usually in UWsc (according to pvx) they are in FoWSC and im sure if i checked others their would be at least one monk and they can also duengon run and the ones they run pay alot more then sins do.

and yes when you said eles dont have a farm like others do i hate that i find that extreemly unfair i belive each profession should have its opportinuties but then i went on pvx to see if eles had any use and i found 3 eles were needed on shitterflames (realname) DoA clear and that pays accouring to some of my friends who run it an armbrace about every 3 runs so they dont seem to have a dissadvantage their my thing is people complain because instead of looking for what they can do to earn money they sit in populated towns and yell at people with obsidian armor because they are jealous and the yellers were to lazy to work for it themselfs every proffession has its own little place to farm or clear find it people please because when perma is gone who is going to be attacked next? monks seem to be pretty high on the pedistal (im gunna get a hate spam with this one but....) hey dervs lemme just say with the way u guys are at you wont ever get a nerf cuz hey what else could they do? take 30 seconds off avatar forms? lol sorry


please dont tell me i had an easy time getting money on guildwars for the first two years i had never gotten over 10k for the longest time and then i started running odd jobs for 50g here 200g their and eventually wen feathers got useful i started farming them so no i didnt have an easy time getting mony and no i never used shadow form to get rich but i belive that it shouldnt be nerfed but be buffed actually

Yeah....here is a good idea by Day Trooper, if you aren't gonna nerf, SF, then make EVERY single other class SF too! So we can run UW with w/e profession we want! Yay~!

Right....perma sin isn't as easy as you think, that's why a huge amount of pug perma UW clears end up as f a i l.

I take a sort of pleasure in being pedantic, so I'd like to point out that the Guild Wars were a series of wars fought between powerful guilds (like, they controlled most of the economy and had reduced the lawful rulers of Tyria into nothing more than figureheads) some time in Tyria's history. That's what Guild Wars' title refers to - a point in the setting's background. It doesn't refer to ingame guilds, to GvG, or anything else like that; not directly at least.

So if the name of the game was really supposed to reflect what the game is, it should be called Team Skirmishes or something.

Okay, enough of the 'if you don't like it, don't use it' and 'perma sin is hard too!' crap, AKB48.

Having a skill ingame that is able to circumvent 90% of GW's mechanisms is bad. I can't see how people are still defending this.

If it exists, it's legit, otherwise Anet had removed SF in one way or another during the peak or the ascent to the peak of SF using in the UW earlier this year(? I think...might be earlier), since it is "able to circumvent 90% of GW's mechanisms". And I wonder if you ever mtned before, or did you stay true to you heart and become the noob who was asking for a balanced party while everyone else is permaing? Over 60% of the perma pugs fail in one way another, there are only a handful of people who can get a ton of ectos with relatively good efficiency, others farm for 5-6 hours, get tired/bored and play something else.

And having a skill ingame that is able to circumvent 90% of GW's mechanisms isn't too bad, after all, I don't think people should be spending hours on end trying to get enough money to buy some weapon or armor, or w/e it is they want. If you think the whole point of the game is about trading or whatnot, go play eve online, as for GW, I think it's meant to be played in the combat zone, not in the trading post.

I'm sorry but this is pathetic. How is this sad thread still going with quality like this?

Whatwhatwhat?! ONE SKILL. Bypasses 90% of GW's skills. Makes the target basically a God of Farming that can be touched by a handful of skills. And you say it's not bad?

I just thank God that you are not on the Arena Net's balancing team. You would buff Ursan Blessing even more, because "it helps people reduce the time they need for weapons and armors".

Excuse me - what need? They don't NEED elite armors or pimped out weapons. They want them. Why do you feel the need to get the most expensive things just because they are expensive? Or why should they give them out for free?

Nothing to add.

Sadly.

First: quote my ENTIRE quote before you start act as the "wise man".(hmmm this quote can be used against AKB48, what? he got reasons? f-that, if I don't quote that part, no one will know, yay! Good strategy, not gonna lie)

But I think it's fair for casual players to get some of all the elite armor/weapons. If you think people don't need the 133t armor/weapon "just because" they are expensive, then how about we take all your high ends(if you got any, that is) and dress you up in the common armor/weapons, how would you feel? I'll assume you will be more than happy to do so from that you said above. I never said to give these 133t weapons out for free, perma is easy, sure, 123 and spam your attacking spells, but to learn each area effectively, and to be able to cover other areas, DO take some time despite the common notion that perma UW = zero learning curve(and here I'm wondering why so many pugs fail). So all I'm saying is that 1) if you wanna lower/kill the game inflation/adjust the prices of items, limit the total amount of gold pieces that can be obtain in the game, otherwise the inflation will be eternal. Why do you think the national treasuries keeps a cap on the total amount of cash flowing in their nations? There is a reason, unbeknown to you. 2) I'm not saying I'm 100% for perma, since I used to hate it until I made an assa because of it(haha...) but I do think permaing is a good way for casual players to obtain some of the 133t items, why should these items always belong to the hard-core GW addicts? Plus, even if you were to nerf SF now, it is too little and it is too late. Nerf it back when SF was at its peak, if you didn't doing it then, Anet, why do it now? There is no point, you already missed the bulk of what you are targeting, SF usage already been reduced due to less people(as far as I know) playing it, and now Anet introduced the skeletons in UW, which makes its usage even less.

And hey, if I were on the Anet's balancing team(pray that you quote me correctly this time, Abedeus) I probably would buff Ursan a day or two just before GW2 launches, and then shut it down after-wards, just for fun.

Since when did you ever had anything to add except your endless bickering about this and that?

Why should I? You lost all credibility the second you said those words.
Read these three words few times before they sink in. CASUAL PLAYERS don't care about ELITE weapons or armors. And if they care, they should take SOME effort. Not roll their faces over keyboards for an hour and get everything they want.

I would be DEVASTATED! Too bad I never ran a single SC, I was in two or three Ursanways before I got bored out of my mind. Rest of the time I either solo farmed or in Physical-Ways (a lot of Warriors, Dervishes, an Imbagon, an Order Necro and a Monk - I was the Monk) in DoA, UW and FoW. People don't NEED elite armors. They WANT them. I don't need $100000. I want $100000. GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME. If you don't agree, give away all your money and live on $100 a month.

Yeeaaaahhhhhhhh no.

NO WAY! There is this thing called "gold sinks" in the game. Consumables, armors, crafted weapons, skills, that sort of things. You are saying "The fire will burn anyway, so let's open the windows, it will burn faster".
So you admit you are a hypocrite - you hated the skill till you started using it. yay. I'm not a hardcore GW addict. I'm more of a PvP-enthusiast. And even I can get elite armors or weapons. I just don't NEED them. If they want to buy something, they work for the money with trading.

Also, since when do casuals care so much about hardcore items?
So you are simply afraid of the nerfing. The same people said "Ursan Blessing has been fine for a year, they won't ever nerf it, don't like it, don't use it". And they finally shut up.
This is why I hope you will never work in any MMO company. You are the scourge of the MMOs, catering to the GIMME GIMME GIMME crowd. You like the insta-lottery i-win buttons? How about some nice single-player games? Just hit the ~ button and enter godmode for the win.

ok at first i was just going to take out the parts i dont like but this whole thing is bullcrap i was once a casual player and guess what? i wanted 15k armor and high end weps no i didnt stand around begging for mony i did what i knew how to do to earn mony i killed creatures but u kno what? thats probl 15k a day ull make max (not including over acheivers and people with waayyy to much free time) and you know shadow form i was completly for it BEFORE I HAD A SIN and i was on its side because hey as they overfarm they keep prices down for us ectos, eternal swords, obsidian blades, now im getting the feeling your already bought these items uber cheap and now you got them you want prices to go up up UP so you can make a profit and you know what? that is a load of bull s*** get over yourself this is not your own personal game if you want it your way go to burger king, Go buy a DS and go play pokemon you little kid were if you feel wronged you can always turn it off lika big boy/girl and maby one day when you mature enough to relize sh*t happens you got to deal with the cards your delt then you can play with the big kids but untill then stop complaining about others good luck and fortune congradulate them if you see them dont shoot them down after their work and for those who say perma is a stupid three button spamming id like to see how you react trying to run up mnts with a perma solo or just how your trying to kill some aaxte and your down to 15 energy using no BU and shadow form dieing becuase im telling you now the people that can bide their time and live THEY are the ones truly getting rich off shadow form

Yeah, let's not go there.

Its simple... one single player should not be able to clear an area whether it be a monk or a sin. It simply should not be. I guess I'm alone in this thinking... but everything else gets nerfed so why leave alone the most uber build ever? It makes no sense and is incredibly inconsistent with past nerf attempts.
I know bot farmers and people who buy gold with real money are a huge problem as well but those people are getting banned on a daily basis. Why? Because it unbalances the game and gives them an extremely unfair advantage.
We don't like when a new player buys tons of in-game gold, buys runs throughout the game, buys a run to the forge and then crafts obby armor. Do we? Of course not. Then why should we tolerate this similar type of behavior? We aren't angry at them for violating the EULA are we? I couldn't are less about the EULA. I simply don't like it that they can have with almost no effort what took me so much blood sweat and tears to acquire. Makes all my efforts meaningless...
All of this, of course, is strictly my opinion and probably smells like every other I'm sure...

Under this line of logic, there should never be any skill changes, ever. Seeing as how there are skill changes every so often, clearly, anet does not share this philosophy.

Also, it is a terrible idea. About 90 years ago in the US, it was illegal for women to vote. Did that make it right? Certainly not. Just because something is allowed does not make it right. Why? Because humans don't always think of everything when they plan stuff out.

...

Ok, then. Go to Sardelac and suggest that monsters' ability to attack and cast targeted spells be removed, since that's what SF does. After all, it's not too bad for those things to not exist, right?

The difference between agriculture and combat is that combat carries risk.

When you use SF, the game is not a combat zone. It is a field of wheat, waiting to be harvested.

First off, please use proper punctuation and capitalization. It'll make people take you more seriously. I don't mean any offense, but I suspect you may be a troll, and am only humoring you with a response because I find this amusing and happen to have nothing better to do at the moment.

Secondly, did it ever occur to you that the inflation of the economy can actually raise the price of high-end items, because so much extra money is being generated?

The overall amount of wealth in the economy never changes. What changes is the amount of "money" in it. The more money, the less each individual denomination is worth. However, by getting a larger proportion of the total money in the game, one can become wealthier.

Now, granted, the extreme farming also brings more weapons and mods into the economy, which drives down the prices of those things. But for other things (such as high-end items), the prices actually increase, because their relative wealth has not changed. What this means is that while the farmers may get rich, those who do not farm become relatively poorer. SF widens the gap between rich and poor to more extreme levels.

Third, you are missing the entire point. Broken skill is broken. Broken skill removes the purpose of every other profession. Broken skill needs to be fixed if there is to be any semblance of balance in the game. The economy is only a side issue. Godmode is bad.

No, people never had the opportunity to learn. Because as long as they can get away with being crappy, they will in most cases just remain crappy. When was the last time you saw someone playing badly and yet reaching the last levels/stages of Contra, Ninja Gaiden, Tetris, Battletoads etc.? Those are games you have to learn to play well before they let you proceed. I'm not saying GW should be unbeatable, I'm saying that as long as you even think about one-shotting monsters with Flare, you should get squashed when you set foot outside Ascalon City.

Do you play for rewards or do you play for the gameplay?

This is going from a non sense to another , now we moved from "if you dont like it ,dont use it" and "why bother ? how SF does affect YOUR game play ?" to :
- "it's fair for casual players to get some of all the elite armor/weapons" and
- "if you remove SF some areas will be so hard that no one will play them"
Seriously this attempt to "defend" a nonsense almost god mode skill with some strange arguments that have nonsense too is getting really weird. What will be next ? "if you nerf SF all UW monsters will cry" and "if you remove SF all D forms should be nerfed too" ?
I know there will be QQs and pain after that nerf/rework ( if it happens ) but for god sake , dont try to make it look unfair with non sense arguments .... its just .... weird because there are no reasonable arguments to defend SF. Nerf didnt happen because Anet is afraid of making it , thats it.

Cry, cry, some more cry, Pokemons, some more cries.


You said you are a casual player. This means 15k a day is a lot. I had a lot less.

You need to learn to either spend more time in-game (because you want something) or save some money. Or, I don't know... stop calling yourself casual, if you care about money so much?

That's why casual is called casual - casuals sit down, play 2 hours and have fun. You obviously want items. Casuals don't care so much about farming, grinding and so on.

Also, you are calling me a kid... Wow, really mature. Especially when you prove it with your attitude:

"I like that the inflation will make the prices go DOWN DOWN DOWN, because then everyone will be as poor as I am."

Guess what - until I started farming solo or going out with H/H to vanquish/do missions, I had about 60k on my account and I didn't even know about the existance of 15k armors. I was totally casual, I liked the way armors did.

I responded to the more polite things, because I am not going to read a troll-fest wall of cries from someone afraid that he might lose his cheap and easy source of income.

personally i have no problem with farmers since they are the main cause of price reduction. however, i'd like sf to get rid of its god-mode like behaviour and make it usable for a variety of sin-builds regardless of the game mode.

Pfft....some of those areas deserve to be ran. 2+ hours in a dungeon with a normal pug for 2 onyx, really? 4+ hours in The Deep with a balanced pug to have a chance of getting a depreciated green, what? Spending hours in FoW with a balanced pug just to get enough shards that are equal or less than what people get from doing Z quest and solo farm in the same amount of time? There are more things to balance than just one skill.

They would be worth more, but after several years of overpowered speed clearing farming builds, its only natural that such things would depreciate in value.

wow thats nice before u starting vanquishing u had about 60k total? thats amazing try never more then 20k in about 3 years and then i started earning mony and no im not poor anymore actually im just not as rich as you kno the people who have couple thousand ectos and id love for this game to be a bit more new person friendly which im assuming you are not

Realize that most any GW player posting on a GW forum will not be newbie friendly. The only reason to post about GW anymore is to complain about it or certain functions and they're usually elitist players -- not the type you're looking for. There are a lot of nice players within the game that never even think to go outside of GW to talk about it as they're spending their time enjoying the game.

Think of GW forums as protest rallies and you're better off.

Yes it would.
Keep it, Kick it.
I'm not fussed, I play for fun.

-Ddraeg

Well then, I got nothing to say to you, my friend. If you can only resort to tricks and devices to win an argument, well, good luck and good bye.

Abedeus, just because something in game is called "elite" does not necessarily means it correlates to the real life definition of elite. (Most "elite" armor is only 15k FYI.)

Think of it this way: when you use Burst of aggresion, it's not like your character is actually getting really mad which makes him attack faster. It's just a descriptive device to justify 33% IAS. Another example: should casual players not be allowed to use "elite" skills??

AK is entirely right when he says you are attempting to use "tricks and devices" to win arguments. Of course, you probably don't realize it, and you'll probably deny it with some half baked rationalization. But do carry on, since your posts are really quite lulsy ^^

Fun is definitely a subjective case, and something being "fun/not fun" shouldn't be taken into consideration.

Of course, that's not the main problem with SF. It's more that it's a completely wonkers skill, and the way it operates in PvE - the way the monsters react to it and etc. mainly - even moreso.

But this is where I agree with the first part: SF isn't going to fix the game. It may be the most OP build but that's it, it's just the most OP thing in PvE right now. It'll be nice to get it in less of a crazy state, but it's just one out of nearly a thousand game-bending methods. So nerfing it won't really help anything to do with the game, but it's a start. I just don't see ANet following up on it.

The only things you actually "need" is mostly bought through traders, and these things aren't terribly unaffordable. The only things that aren't available there, that I believe should be, are weapon mods. But that's the only exception, getting to the gear cap in this game is really easy.

Everything else is just about looks; "wants", not "needs". The game will play no less different with a set of 15k armor rather than 1k, enemies do not become weaker when you use a gold item. Making unnecessary things "accessible" is a weird route, and if that's what ANet wanted to do I could see the game being in a much better shape if everything was just cheaper to get.