Will nerfing SF really help anything to do with the game?

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Ya. And if people are not forced to learn, they never will learn, and will stay crappy players forever.
Before Perma SF ever existed people already had years to "learn", and yet it is still like this. Maybe Anet just don't understand their target audience very well? Most new players I talk to say GW is the hardest RPG ever just because their "firebolts" (flare) can't one hit KO and "rape monsters"....and apparently these people are the majority. I even over heard a random guy in post-searing ascalon saying he's "mislead" in that this game should be labeled a strategy game and not a RPG :P

As for me, the only thing I care about is actually playing an ONLINE game without being forced to go with AI, repeatedly solo farm or trying to find the 1% of good guilds. If it mean giving the 99% idiots crutches then so be it. I have more fun playing with with SF nubs than having a balanced group screaming at me to "heal better" after a "pro" mesmer ran ahead to hex monsters. To be honest, some areas deserve to be "abused" with SF just because the rewards are absolute crap for the effort involved. *cough* dungeons *cough*.

MithranArkanere

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.


I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere View Post
The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.


I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.
"If you don't like it, don't play it" - Stupid parrotty idiot quote.

Yeah, I know it's sad.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Tank? If SF was limited to tanking, it would fall in the same category as Dolyak Signet and it would not be a problem. But it's not limited to that.
If you want to clear an elite area in record time, SF.
If you want to solo a mission by running to the end and beating one guy, SF.
If you want to solo a dungeon by running to the end and beating one guy, SF.
If you want to pay someone to play your game for you, SF.
But nothing about that says you can't improve.
Even before SF improving in PvE didn't mean being able to complete something that wasn't completed before. It meant completing something that countless people before you already completed - just being more efficient at it.
And even with SF, there will be people and parties that suck at it and there will be those that excel. (Just that sucking at it won't mean you fail it - but it will mean you do something a few minutes slower.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
Thank you for pointing this out. One balance metric is the risk/reward balance. Clearly, with SF, the risk is not only smaller than with basically any other build, the reward over time is also greater since it's so fast. It's obvious that SF is unbalanced.
As I have argued in some other thread, the problem is that the amount of grind is completely out of touch with the reality of the game.
And something as insane as SF, that is completely out of touch with all other options, IS in touch with the reality of the game.
If this amount of grind should be kept in the game - it's not SF that is too good. It's everything else that is too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc View Post
But the game doesn't demand that you reach GWAMM any more than it demands that you reach Legendary Hero or get a Zhed minipet. On the other hand, skills like SF making GWAMM generally available makes it feel like achieveing it is demanded (it's the simple concept of apparent social baseline; "everyone else is doing it", even when most don't).
And the result of this?
People playing the game.
When you have a bunch of unattainable goals in the game - why would people continue playing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere View Post
The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.


I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.
MOMMY!
Those mean boys won't play with me!
MAKE THEM PLAY WITH ME!11!!

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
And the result of this?
People playing the game.
When you have a bunch of unattainable goals in the game - why would people continue playing?
Who said people continue to play? My f list has been empty for a year or so. Once in a while during a holiday event there is a "surge" of 5-6 people online out of 40-50.

Quote:
MOMMY!
Those mean boys won't play with me!
MAKE THEM PLAY WITH ME!11!!
Quit trolling. His point is valid. When in an online game you are required to have an Assassin, and 9 other professions are only good as secondaries, to even get into a team, there is something seriously wrong. You might as well delete other professions in PvE.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by MithranArkanere View Post
The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.
H/H works fine but SoO is a very poorly designed dungeon reminiscent of Ebony Citadel (Mallyx). You can optimize a build to curbstomp the dungeon itself but Fendi is brutal. Go the other way around and the larger groups that add in the Illusionists/Archers might eke out a win against you. Shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to discuss strategy with you, this should be a piece of cake on an Ele.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
Who said people continue to play? My f list has been empty for a year or so. Once in a while during a holiday event there is a "surge" of 5-6 people online out of 40-50.
Did these people stop because they achieved ALL goals, or did they stop because the goals that were left were not achievable?
My problem isn't people quitting because they did it all.
My problem is people quitting because the goals that are left are almost impossible to reach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
Quit trolling. His point is valid. When in an online game you are required to have an Assassin, and 9 other professions are only good as secondaries, to even get into a team, there is something seriously wrong. You might as well delete other professions in PvE.
A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.

What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post

A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.

What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.
The point is the build shouldn't exist in the first place.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms View Post
The point is the build shouldn't exist in the first place.
The point is that the GOAL that is achieved by running this build shouldn't exist in the first place.
But as long as it does - I am in favour of tools that help achieve this goal faster.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
The point is that the GOAL that is achieved by running this build shouldn't exist in the first place.
But as long as it does - I am in favour of tools that help achieve this goal faster.
It's not solely about achievability upier, a challenge still has to exist.

P.S.: if Dreamwind replies to my quote, then this thread will start going down :P

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin View Post
It's not solely about achievability upier, a challenge still has to exist.
You feel that maxing out Luxon wouldn't be a challenge if instead of 10 mil donated faction you'd have to donate 2 mil?
Or opening 2k chests wouldn't be a challenge?
Or IDing 2k golds?
Or if max sweets/booze/party would be 2k?
Or if the GWEN titles didn't max at 160k but at 80k instead.

I am not saying to give everything for free to anyone that installs the game.
I am just saying that goals that require the equivalent of completing the game a few 10s of times in a game such as GW SCREAM for shortcuts. So instead of having to cater to those shortcuts - let's remove the reason why people would want the shortcut!

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
You feel that maxing out Luxon wouldn't be a challenge if instead of 10 mil donated faction you'd have to donate 2 mil?
Or opening 2k chests wouldn't be a challenge?
Or IDing 2k golds?
Or if max sweets/booze/party would be 2k?
Or if the GWEN titles didn't max at 160k but at 80k instead.

I am not saying to give everything for free to anyone that installs the game.
I am just saying that goals that require the equivalent of completing the game a few 10s of times in a game such as GW SCREAM for shortcuts. So instead of having to cater to those shortcuts - let's remove the reason why people would want the shortcut!
No it's not really a challenge in my mind, it's beyond a challenge: it's a grind. This is what happens when the "length" become more important than the "depth". It's difficult for sure, requires tenacity, dedication and patience (actually with the few modifications Linsey introduced over the years, eg books and VQs, it's not as insane as before), but everyone can do it provided you put the time and a relatively modest amount of efforts. GW never, ever screamed for anything, unless you consider you have to be able to access every single point in the whole totality of maps (i.e. DoA, HM, but also AB, GvG...) and be able to reach every single "number" (i.e. title). Players do "scream" because they're maybe obsessed with titles? It's like looking at your speedometer and screaming that you're not reaching the end of it at full speed.

(but if I understand you correctly, you're saying you want title removed and that's acceptable; I'd rather have them, but not displayable)

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
Did these people stop because they achieved ALL goals, or did they stop because the goals that were left were not achievable?
My problem isn't people quitting because they did it all.
My problem is people quitting because the goals that are left are almost impossible to reach.
They got bored. The only things you can "achieve" and not just "grind the living hell out of" are PvP titles, but then you need a living guild. And we know how hard that is to find.
Quote:
A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.
What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.
What if 95% of the teams in UW/FoW want SF only? It means that you MIGHT get into a team, but you'll have to wait 3 hours and then pray on your knees till you scrape them that nobody will leave mid-way.

What I am suggesting is nerf the skill. This is worse than the Trinity - at least there you could go in with an Elementalist, Monk, Warrior, Ranger (instead of the Elementalist), Dervish (as a tank), Ritualist (support for the Ranger), Necromancer (BiP, SS, MM, support), Mesmer (instead of Elementalist), and probably even an Assassin with DB+MB, nuking monsters.

Now you MUST have an assassins with only ONE build they tell you to go with. I understand the need for a one build. But not a situation where 9 out of 10 classes are obsolete in any situation.

Reformed

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
What if 95% of the teams in UW/FoW want SF only? It means that you MIGHT get into a team, but you'll have to wait 3 hours and then pray on your knees till you scrape them that nobody will leave mid-way.
UWSC is for all intensive purposes dead. If you can't work into a FoWSC group (the Manlyspike one), which is vastly more diverse than UWSC ever was, you are doing it wrong. The fact that 600/smite is now back in the running for active UW farmers should speak volumes about what the changes accomplished. I don't see any of these miracle balanced PuGs springing up anywhere or general clears for that matter and we are up almost 2 weeks into this. It shows plain as day that people will follow the path of least resistance. This little experiment should also give you a good idea of what will happen if they continue to make changes. Either a new tank swaps in as a counter or the farmers move on to greener pastures.

Anonymous IXl

Anonymous IXl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2009

ON, Canada

Super Galactic Mystery Solvers [Clue]

Mo/Me

Shadow Form is the WORST Skill In The Game. Almost every item in the game that used to be considered "High End" Are considered common garbage these days. There are really only 5 High end skins in the game now and it makes these items get over-farmed as well. It also creates a largely un-balanced market,

KZaske

KZaske

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Boise Idaho

Druids Of Old (DOO)

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
UWSC is for all intensive purposes dead. If you can't work into a FoWSC group (the Manlyspike one), which is vastly more diverse than UWSC ever was, you are doing it wrong. The fact that 600/smite is now back in the running for active UW farmers should speak volumes about what the changes accomplished. I don't see any of these miracle balanced PuGs springing up anywhere or general clears for that matter and we are up almost 2 weeks into this. It shows plain as day that people will follow the path of least resistance. This little experiment should also give you a good idea of what will happen if they continue to make changes. Either a new tank swaps in as a counter or the farmers move on to greener pastures.
Very true.

I miss the days when PuGs would form and go after a goal. These zones were ment to be Elite, players needed to understand how thier skills worked and how to work as part of a team or they failed. For example; warriors had to wait for the monks & eles in thier team to recover engery before charging forward. Rangers played high guard spreading discontent in the mobs and rezing the all too often over zealous warrior and some times the entire group. I remember when we use to designate a runner for each and every PuG. It was the runners job to running away when most of the group was down, wait for the mobs to clear the area and rez the dead. The runner was usually a ranger or a monk. At the time; team work was the path of least resistance. Solo play was possible, but not easy. You needed to take your time when using henchies. Today, everyone wants to get whatever they are doing done as quick as possible, they don't want to take the time to build a PuG and adjust builds to support the team. They want to go now and get it done as quickly as possible.
To me the decline of team work can be marked by the introduction of Heros which allowed a player to have a full team without any other real people, the over use of SF made every 'elite' area possible without much effort.
I am not saying that heros are all bad, they are not. I am not saying that SF is all bad, it is not. I just miss the team work that use to be an all too rare part of the game.
In short, the popularity of the current abuse of SF can be attributed to each and every one of us. Some for paying the outragious prices they want, other because of greed. The greed of wanting to get every elite thing in the game as quickly as possible. Is that bad, not really. I just don't see how paying someone else to do my job as a player is good for me, the game or anyone else.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
not just "grind the living hell out of" are PvP titles
No, PvP titles are pretty much the epitome of that.

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by KZaske View Post
Very true.

I miss the days when PuGs would form and go after a goal. These zones were ment to be Elite, players needed to understand how thier skills worked and how to work as part of a team or they failed. For example; warriors had to wait for the monks & eles in thier team to recover engery before charging forward. Rangers played high guard spreading discontent in the mobs and rezing the all too often over zealous warrior and some times the entire group. I remember when we use to designate a runner for each and every PuG. It was the runners job to running away when most of the group was down, wait for the mobs to clear the area and rez the dead. The runner was usually a ranger or a monk. At the time; team work was the path of least resistance. Solo play was possible, but not easy. You needed to take your time when using henchies. Today, everyone wants to get whatever they are doing done as quick as possible, they don't want to take the time to build a PuG and adjust builds to support the team. They want to go now and get it done as quickly as possible.
To me the decline of team work can be marked by the introduction of Heros which allowed a player to have a full team without any other real people, the over use of SF made every 'elite' area possible without much effort.
I am not saying that heros are all bad, they are not. I am not saying that SF is all bad, it is not. I just miss the team work that use to be an all too rare part of the game.
In short, the popularity of the current abuse of SF can be attributed to each and every one of us. Some for paying the outragious prices they want, other because of greed. The greed of wanting to get every elite thing in the game as quickly as possible. Is that bad, not really. I just don't see how paying someone else to do my job as a player is good for me, the game or anyone else.
I believe that where we are now with the game is the result of general dismay to a few vital things: 1. Poor enemy AI, and 2. Poor enemy build structure.

In WoW I remember a moment where I was able to solo a raid boss as a lock for like a few days. Blizzard *hates* that, they hate it when you're able to accomplish a task with a very limited selection of classes.

This is something I was hoping to see in Guild Wars, but ANet didn't take much advance to encourage a balanced game. If enemies were configured to ignore certain build combos then farming wouldn't be nearly as effective as it is now. If you were in a full and balanced team group, what would you do against an SF sin? Well for one everyone wouldn't be wasting all their spells on him. This is also why h/h is so successful: being "good" in PvE is easily achieved, and hence why soloing is such an accessible route. No need to micro-manage anything your heroes are doing - which is what *should* be required - just aggro a mob, spam SY!, loot, repeat.

But I had a pretty good feeling that balanced and smart play was forever dead when I saw them remove the AoE scatter. That right there was one of the biggest pieces of evidence of the route that ANet was heading down with PvE. The PvE/P skill split made it worse.

If ANet wants to fix PvE, it's going to take a LOT more than just fixing the thing that's the most overpowered. Enemy behavior and build structure will need a massive overhaul. Otherwise we'll be stuck in a sea of gimmicks and unintelligent play.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk View Post
No, PvP titles are pretty much the epitome of that.
Well okay, but with PvP titles you need a bit of skill. You can't just spend 2 weeks doing books over and over like you would to get rank 10 in a PvE title, or run around a map with TextMod and touching the edges.

Especially for Champion.

Fril Estelin

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

Good idea Bryant: we need all AI to have an "SF" mode, where they'd nail the sin the best they can .

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

Exactly. I mean think about it: if the trolls in that cave recognized what Zealot's Fire did and knew to kite a lot of the time, and if attacking someone who has "Shield of Judgement" on them usually leads to "owie", then that would've been one of the few changes that would've lead to "farming" being ineffective. Even a typical animal in real life could recognize if something hurt them and to stay away from it.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Easiest way to encourage a balanced team...code in an extra ~10k for a team that complete UW with a varied 8 player build setup, and watch everyone switch to balanced. And do this for every area in the game except vary the plat increase according to difficulty. Far easier than attempting to nerf their way to balanced build (NEVER works) or revamp the entire game AI and hope that a gimmick build won't break it again.

Arduin

Arduin

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Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Easiest way to encourage a balanced team...code in an extra ~10k for a team that complete UW with a varied 8 player build setup, and watch everyone switch to balanced. And do this for every area in the game except vary the plat increase according to difficulty. Far easier than attempting to nerf their way to balanced build (NEVER works) or revamp the entire game AI and hope that a gimmick build won't break it again.
People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.

Golgotha

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.
.. and offer no gameplay advantages over the ugly skins.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.
There's this thing called expected utility theory that lets us put a price on that shot at getting a rare weapon. That chance is much less valuable than you seem to think.

People speed clear for the ectos, or because they like to gamble.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
People don't SC for the raw money, they SC for a shot at one of the rare weapons at the endchest, which are worth many times those 10k.
If people are not doing SC for the money, then this entire thread and all the previous 100 threads wouldn't exist. The rare chest weapons? 4x faster of 0.00001% is completely insignificant. its the same reason why we don't see "swarms" of people doing dungeon SC for chest items. (Swarm is relative....still tiny compared to all the pugs out there desperate for some sort of gimmick help to complete NM missions)

The only reason ToA is the only area in the game that actually still has people is because its the only area with an SC that offers more reward than solo farm and/or PvP Z questing. Nerf the SC without compensating normal play just shift everyone to another type of farm...there were already ridiculous amount of evidence of that. I still remember before Ursan/Perma were available there was a period where UW/FoW and Urgoz/Deep were all empty, with everyone doing UW/Fow solo/duo farm. Then of course there's the DoA episode that obviously show that people will not ever do anything with a balanced team build unless it is the most efficient choice.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
The only reason ToA is the only area in the game that actually still has people is because its the only area with an SC that offers more reward than solo farm and/or PvP Z questing.
This is completely untrue. People SC from ToA because they're bad. Either they don't know about other superior alternatives, or they're too bad at the game to pull them off.

You just don't see PuGs forming in those areas because PuGs will fail consistently. People form those groups the same way decent HA teams form - via guild rosters and friends lists. Just like with those teams, PuGs get taken only out of sheer desperation to play.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
This is completely untrue. People SC from ToA because they're bad. Either they don't know about other superior alternatives, or they're too bad at the game to pull them off.

You just don't see PuGs forming in those areas because PuGs will fail consistently. People form those groups the same way decent HA teams form - via guild rosters and friends lists. Just like with those teams, PuGs get taken only out of sheer desperation to play.
Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop. There are also plenty of "guilds" that really just copy what the pugs do. Finding a guild that truly do something original AND is constantly active is probably as rare as getting a rare weapon out of the UWSC end chest :P. At the end even with the "superior alternative" that "good" people do, UWSC might still ends up coming ahead because in the hours that a guild doesn't have enough people, SC pugs are still farming away.

And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem. And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.

DreamWind

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin View Post
P.S.: if Dreamwind replies to my quote, then this thread will start going down :P
I doubt it. We are generally on topic. The other thread was unjustly locked.

The Blood Countess

The Blood Countess

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2009

Someone stole my [shoe]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop. There are also plenty of "guilds" that really just copy what the pugs do. Finding a guild that truly do something original AND is constantly active is probably as rare as getting a rare weapon out of the UWSC end chest :P. At the end even with the "superior alternative" that "good" people do, UWSC might still ends up coming ahead because in the hours that a guild doesn't have enough people, SC pugs are still farming away.

And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem. And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.
You must not have a very good guild if its easier to form a pug than a guild group. find a guild that people actually like to play together and you dont have a problem. And if you like each other you wont care what the other persons build is. My guild for one does not make guildies ping builds (that would be bullshit, we all know the other person isn't a bad player). it doesn't take us long to set up, and we play in full guild groups a lot. Its not a big guild its just a guild of like minded people, if we have 8 people logged on chances are we are all playing in the same group.

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Its about accessibility....to go with a guild to something = waiting for 8 free players, discussing builds, and of course the guild actually has to be one of the very few good ones. Even if you do have a good guild with good players you still need to have a common time, whereas PuG SC you can do it 24/7 constantly non-stop.
Another Grind Wars player. This game was marketed as skill > time. The old-timers that bought this game don't want to 24/7; we want ANet to maintain the game properly so that you will go to another game where 24/7 play gets rewarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
And if there's a "superior alternative" that are done by guilds, what's wrong with UWSC then? Because that implies that UWSC is an inferior alternative only done by pugs for less reward = exactly as it should be = no problem.
It makes ectos. Lots of them. That screws up high end markets. You don't want lots of people farming UW all the time. You want them farming elsewhere, and you want them farming gold or items/consumables that people actually use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
And I doubt that "superior alternative" is anything remotely close to balanced, its probably another gimmick that will one day find its way out into pug groups and then the "good people's build" will end up being "OP pug build" again.
Every single one of them uses SF. That should tell you how imba SF is. The problem that is SF is not limited to UWSC.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blood Countess View Post
You must not have a very good guild if its easier to form a pug than a guild group. find a guild that people actually like to play together and you dont have a problem. And if you like each other you wont care what the other persons build is. My guild for one does not make guildies ping builds (that would be bullshit, we all know the other person isn't a bad player). it doesn't take us long to set up, and we play in full guild groups a lot. Its not a big guild its just a guild of like minded people, if we have 8 people logged on chances are we are all playing in the same group.
Its not that guild groups are harder to form, its that guild groups are availible less often. My guild is actually pretty good (IMO) in that I can get at least 2 hour of end game area play time each day. Most people who pugs however, usually do it because their guildies ain't on for long enough (when they go on their guildies leave), or on at different time/time zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
Another Grind Wars player. This game was marketed as skill > time. The old-timers that bought this game don't want to 24/7; we want ANet to maintain the game properly so that you will go to another game where 24/7 play gets rewarded.

It makes ectos. Lots of them. That screws up high end markets. You don't want lots of people farming UW all the time. You want them farming elsewhere, and you want them farming gold or items/consumables that people actually use.

Every single one of them uses SF. That should tell you how imba SF is. The problem that is SF is not limited to UWSC.
LOL. You do know that UWSC is essentially the most anti-grind build ever? By the way when I said 24/7, I mean 24/7 accessibility, NOT 24/7 grinding. If you want grind, "balanced" requires the MOST grind of them all, because its a build that purposely cripple itself by not taking advantage of the AI flaws fully (blame ANET for its AI design), and requires the most searching for varied profession. Nerfing UWSC increases grind more than anything.

Every single player uses SF? Didn't you say that guilds uses "superior alternatives"? So what is it?

Martin Alvito

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
LOL. You do know that UWSC is essentially the most anti-grind build ever?
No, there's plenty of more efficient SF alternatives out there. If all you want to do is clear the UW, sure, it's more efficient than prior alternatives. But I left the early UWSC groups specifically because I could beat the pants off of the returns even once we finally got the run down to a single cons set by Bleys' use of an SF in Chamber. (All the soloists were OF at that time.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
If you want grind, "balanced" requires the MOST grind of them all, because its a build that purposely cripple itself by not taking advantage of the AI flaws fully (blame ANET for its AI design), and requires the most searching for varied profession. Nerfing UWSC increases grind more than anything.
Again, this depends on what you're trying to do. Making ectos easy to get decreases grind for failbots and increases it for people that play efficiently. We don't want the masses easily getting their hands on things that are supposed to be hard to get. Wasn't that the whole reasoning behind nerfing Urgoz HM a couple of years ago? The exploit was well known for farming keys in NM prior to HM's introduction. The devs just didn't care until it because efficient to farm it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post
Every single player uses SF? Didn't you say that guilds uses "superior alternatives"? So what is it?
Every single superior alternative uses SF. Whether it's DoA or a dungeon run (running players or 8-man), anything that makes money faster uses SF. So did Vaettir farming during events before that got nerfed.

This should clue you in that SF is broken. The only issue that deserves debate is whether or not OF and 605 need to go as well. OF is just as potent as SF for some of the content SF is used to bypass, given that you eat some consumable speed buffs. 605 beats just about everything SF beats and some things it doesn't, but isn't as quick.

Tastyy

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Alvito View Post
Every single superior alternative uses SF. Whether it's DoA or a dungeon run (running players or 8-man), anything that makes money faster uses SF. So did Vaettir farming during events before that got nerfed.
Who uses SF to grind in UW or Dungeons anymore?

I am using SoS-build or Discordway. Sometimes I dust off my 55. SoS gets me tons of money from feather farming. Discordway is excelent way to pick-lock and tome farm. 55 is still in use with SS necros. SF doesn't get me anything. I guess it could be used for running.

Your argument is invalid

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
I am using SoS-build or Discordway. Sometimes I dust off my 55. SoS gets me tons of money from feather farming. Discordway is excelent way to pick-lock and tome farm. 55 is still in use with SS necros. SF doesn't get me anything. I guess it could be used for running.

Your argument is invalid
Bolded the problem. YOU ARE using those builds.

SF is still a compressed anti-physical, anti-spell, anti-interrupt, anti-condition skill that can't be Shattered, Drained, Stripped, Rended or Interrupted by anything but few signets.

Tastyy

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
Bolded the problem. YOU ARE using those builds.

SF is still a compressed anti-physical, anti-spell, anti-interrupt, anti-condition skill that can't be Shattered, Drained, Stripped, Rended or Interrupted by anything but few signets.
Right, and so this is the part where you give me a list of areas that are good for money making when your a permaSF, beside of course FoW/UW.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastyy View Post
Right, and so this is the part where you give me a list of areas that are good for money making when your a permaSF, beside of course FoW/UW.
See, this is also one of the problems - overfarming of green items, dungeon drops and other rare drop locations thanks to all sorts of invinci builds made it almost impossible to make a decent buck outside of UW.

You can still tank in DoA, try getting Elemental Swords with the Raptors or various mobs in Desolation...

Still, why the bloody hell do I have to give any list to you? It's a damn overpowered build that can tank ANYTHING that doesn't have PBAoE or non-Spell skills.


This is the part where you name me a game that allows for a skill superior to anything else in defense, offense or utility to exist for over a year.

edit: An online-only game, to be exact.

AKB48

AKB48

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2008

みやき町

Mo/A

It's funny how many people gets all worked up over one assassin elite. If you don't like SF, don't run it, but also don't btch to these who do, we never said "DO use SF" to you, did we? And if you can't find a team to play with using your "good-old-fair" builds, too bad, try to convince these of us who do use SF to use balanced instead of btching at us like a dying mad dog, it will work better.

Abedeus

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKB48 View Post
It's funny how many people gets all worked up over one assassin elite. If you don't like SF, don't run it, but also don't btch to these who do, we never said "DO use SF" to you, did we? And if you can't find a team to play with using your "good-old-fair" builds, too bad, try to convince these of us who do use SF to use balanced instead of btching at us like a dying mad dog, it will work better.
You are an idiot for not reading the last two pages or so.

Tastyy

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
See, this is also one of the problems - overfarming of green items, dungeon drops and other rare drop locations thanks to all sorts of invinci builds made it almost impossible to make a decent buck outside of UW.
You sure are a whiny lad.
Green farming is not that profitable, most green weapons go for 1-5k. It has nothing to do with "overfarming" because you can't overfarm bosses. The drop late is pretty low, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
You can still tank in DoA, try getting Elemental Swords with the Raptors or various mobs in Desolation...
You'll be able to tank, but not hold aggro long enough. Not to talk about that you won't be doing DOA if you don't have a guild which does. Not many guilds do DOA often.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
Still, why the bloody hell do I have to give any list to you? It's a damn overpowered build that can tank ANYTHING that doesn't have PBAoE or non-Spell skills.
As I said, you don't use SF to tank. Mist Form, Kenetic armor, various Earth armor-skills tank as well.

How did SF effect your gameplay? And how did SF effect the market, other than keeping it mid-low?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abedeus View Post
This is the part where you name me a game that allows for a skill superior to anything else in defense, offense or utility to exist for over a year.
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