UWSC Nerf and Anet's "Progress" - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

15 Nov 2009 at 23:12 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Argument = "Don't like it, don't use it."

"Don't like it, don't use it" = SINGLE PLAYER GAMES.

In GW, you are forced to use it if you want to get into teams.

Also, it's an overpowered skill. Do you know an online-only game where an overpowered skill is accepted? I don't.

Oh okay. I see. You totally convinced me now.

KageNoShi

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2009

In the shadows.

[SIGH]

A/

15 Nov 2009 at 23:40 - 162

Really, I'm not convinced? O.o

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

15 Nov 2009 at 23:50 - 163

Augh, why is this debate dragging out? What is the argument even over anymore?
Major UWSCing has been stopped. So I don't see a problem anymore but stupid shadowform tank n' spank+dungeon running (In which I prefer the other options available anyways.)

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

15 Nov 2009 at 23:52 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It seems to me that you find farming and grind not only to be acceptable but actually desired activities in a game such as GW.

For a limited subset of players that want to compete for the rarest stuff only. Grind's going to happen in that race; there's no preventing it. But efficiency should get rewarded over grind.

The way I see it, if the SF crowd wanted to stop being lemmings running wiki builds, they could. The problem is that they don't have to; they get sufficiently rewarded with easy SF builds that they never have to improve to get where they want to go within their personal time constraints.

When you're doing something like UWSC that is 3-6x less efficient than alternatives and complaining about grind, I lack sympathy. You should evaluate your options more carefully before deciding how to spend your time.

You could have easily made enough in-game cash to max every title there is farming Vaettirs during the birthday celebration without having to invest hours and hours a day. Farm cupcakes, sit on them, sell six months later at 2-3x the price, buy cheap items, max titles. Done.

And that's only a modestly efficient approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So while I strive to minimize or to even remove it, you are striving for ways of keeping it in the game.

Here's the deal: I want to see bad players get punished for being bad. It should take them forever to attain their goals grinding away inefficiently. I want to see difficulty, so that good players get rewarded for being good. I want to see 24/7 grinders not get rewarded, so that they GTFO this "skill > time" game and go find a grind game.

That ain't happening right now.

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

16 Nov 2009 at 01:00 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

For a limited subset of players that want to compete for the rarest stuff only.

That's the thing - I don't see titles being in this category. That's why I don't feel that grind is a desired activity when it comes to achieving these goals.

(Pretty much the only thing I see in this category would be the ultra rares, but I consider those a flaw in the system and looking back I feel it would be better had they never been included. There is nothing wrong with players completing the game which would mean they either start a new guy, move onto PvP or onto a completely new game. The players would feel a much bigger feeling of satisfaction if they were able to max out pretty much every goal in the game and then quit, over the situation we have now where players quit because the goals that are in the game are simply unattainable though normal play.)

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

16 Nov 2009 at 01:10 - 166

I kind of agree with upier.
I've UWSCed a lot in the past. But not once, not once, have I ever found an E-blade.

As an UWSCer, I will say I mostly did it for the fun. Being vale sin was very fun and it felt like a different form of gameplay as opposed to normal Guild Wars.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

16 Nov 2009 at 02:09 - 167

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's the thing - I don't see titles being in this category. That's why I don't feel that grind is a desired activity when it comes to achieving these goals.

Vanquishing IS grind.
Legendary Survivor IS grind.
Guardian IS grind.
Legendary Master of the North IS grind.
Cartographer IS grind.

Reducing the time cost of the consumables titles by 50 hours is a drop in the bucket. The titles are grind by design. I agree that this is terribly flawed. But you can opt out.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

16 Nov 2009 at 03:42 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Vanquishing IS grind.
Legendary Survivor IS grind.
Guardian IS grind.
Legendary Master of the North IS grind.
Cartographer IS grind.
.

I would say none of these are grind the 1st time around somewhat grueling but not grind the 1st time. Grind is the EoTN rep titles and alliance titles. What makes the other titles grind are repetition. Guardian is not grind, but it becomes grind when you reduce the missions to a farmfest with zquests and expect veteran players to actually participate. I got three pve toons all are legiondary guardian just by virtue of taking them though the game. Now to ask me to farm the missions again for zcoins over and over turns the storyline into grind and Anet is not letting the game take its course towards a natural completion. PvE is over for traditional players because there is no content left to play, except for the farmers and grinders who have made up their own game of GW monopoly or GW railroad tycoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Reducing the time cost of the consumables titles by 50 hours is a drop in the bucket. The titles are grind by design. I agree that this is terribly flawed. But you can opt out.

These horrible titles further contribute to the farmfest with the idiot Nick the Traveler and people playing 20 hours a day during festivals. GW is a farmfest by design, they won't nerf SF because they want all the dungeons ran over and over to keep the hamsters on the thread mill gathering zcoins till GW2.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

16 Nov 2009 at 05:32 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Augh, why is this debate dragging out? What is the argument even over anymore?
Major UWSCing has been stopped. So I don't see a problem anymore but stupid shadowform tank n' spank+dungeon running (In which I prefer the other options available anyways.)

Because people won't ever admit the real motive...pugs being able to do end game areas reserved for guilds without frustration is bad, must get them out! Give the pugs a month or 2 to practice with the next gimmick build involving SF or OF or whatever and they'll once again be able to clear the entire area super efficiently. Therefore, we must nerf nuke everything that is remotely usable by pugs (after months of practice that is) until almost all of them can't complete the area without spending 6 hours is the goal. How dare pugs even come close to these areas that are supposed to be for us pros alone? Am I rite?

Thank god Anet left the tanking function alone, I can't imagine going with (Weak)"balanced" pugs that wipes at the sight of one ruby djinn just because a "pro" mesmer decide to run ahead to interrupt 0.5 sec cast HM spells and drag the aggro to the back line, where everyone are doing group hugs.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

16 Nov 2009 at 08:22 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Blow up SF. Blow up OF. PvE/PvP split SB (it has PvP uses), giving it a *shorter* PvE duration. Solved.

There is nothing wrong with SB if you are referring to Spell Breaker.It has no pvp use.

When will other classes be able to do what the perma SF sin does?

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

16 Nov 2009 at 09:10 - 171

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Vanquishing IS grind.
Legendary Survivor IS grind.
Guardian IS grind.
Legendary Master of the North IS grind.
Cartographer IS grind.

Reducing the time cost of the consumables titles by 50 hours is a drop in the bucket. The titles are grind by design. I agree that this is terribly flawed. But you can opt out.

As Shadowspawn said, I consider grind to be anything that involves doing something that you already did over and over again. That's why I am suggesting for the titles to be balanced with the game in mind. As I have said, when there are 8 areas to gain Luxon faction, and by completing the quests there and VQing you reach some (I am guessing based on the wiki data) 300k donated faction and the max title is 10 mil, which means you WILL have to resort to grind to max it.
On the other hand, look at something like Sunspear. You are able to max that by going through the game in NM and HM and it's done. You can resort to farming, but there is no need for it.
(Now I am aware that one is ALSO a PvP, account-wide title and the other one is just a character, PvE title, but with the linking of PvE skills to it, it was effectively made into a PvE title and as such it should be obtainable though PvE play.)

Remove the need to grind PvE.
And if this need is removed, there is also no need to cater to this need (and that's what all the overpowered concepts we have seen, currently see AND will see in the future, are!). But this doesn't mean that the ability to grind is also removed. It would just mean that because people do not NEED to do it, it might be something that is available to the better player only.
But as long as this amount of grind we have now is in the game, I would rather see A.Net cater it. Because otherwise we are dealing with an unplayable game.

Kenzo Skunk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

16 Nov 2009 at 12:08 - 172

The mistake was made from the very beginning with fixed amount of gold a player can carry with himself. It was nailed at 100k, so for more expensive items something needed to be traded alongside those 100k. So, it was ecto. There is no need to nerf SF, or any other skill. Simply let characters carry unlimited cash and the problem is solved. No more ecto trading, no more 100k+XYZe. How much for that mini naga? 7.000.000 please, and that`s it. Gold for trading, ecto for armor.

ValaOfTheFens

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Warrior Nation[WN]

16 Nov 2009 at 15:21 - 173

Why does anyone still care about UWSC? Its been going strong for years, in various forms, and is likely to continue until the end of GW1. Its a pain in the ass for casual players like myself because I can't do that sort of content if my toon doesn't fit one of the predefined roles. My main is a Necro and I don't know if Necros are a part of any UW clearing team. I'd like to actually complete UW before GW2 comes out but that seems unlikely. Forget DoA lol. Anyway, let people do UWSC. I haven't a clue as to why people need so much money in GW though. Its easy to make money w/o gimmick farming, though it does take longer. I've managed to get Vabbian on two toons and a Torm shield w/o ever resorting to SF farming. 55 farming in Kinya Province(it makes about 5k a run) and CoF(makes about 4.5k a run if you're being ran through) runs made me over 100k in about two months. Its terribly inefficient but it proves that you can get what you want if you actually work hard for it. People act as if you can't get high end items or $$ intensive titles w/o UWSC and that makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really need 12 stacks of Aged Hunters Ale or an Everlasting Crate of Fireworks?

Thats what you have to ask yourself. Who the hell cares if people want to spend all their time in UW? I've taken to doing the cartography titles. What are the dank corners of UW compared to the stunning, lush beauty of Vabbi or that absolutely amazing shrine to Balthazar in The Falls? Cartography makes me happy and maybe UWSC makes the people that do it happy. *shrug*

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

16 Nov 2009 at 17:14 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzo Skunk

The mistake was made from the very beginning with fixed amount of gold a player can carry with himself. It was nailed at 100k, so for more expensive items something needed to be traded alongside those 100k. So, it was ecto. There is no need to nerf SF, or any other skill. Simply let characters carry unlimited cash and the problem is solved. No more ecto trading, no more 100k+XYZe. How much for that mini naga? 7.000.000 please, and that`s it. Gold for trading, ecto for armor.

Yeaaah.... Or people would just sell ectoes for money at the trader or to people who need the armor. It would still be overpowered.

You know that SF can be used in other places, not just UW, right?

Kenzo Skunk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

16 Nov 2009 at 17:31 - 175

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeaaah.... Or people would just sell ectoes for money at the trader or to people who need the armor. It would still be overpowered.

You know that SF can be used in other places, not just UW, right?

People would sell ectos for how much? You think at these prices? Probably not. If ectos were used for armor only, they would cost much less then 6-7-10k. As for sf, yeah you could use it to farm many areas. But you can farm many areas with say, spell breaker, right?

Aba

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

Vancouver,Canada

16 Nov 2009 at 18:21 - 176

Quote:

The mistake was made from the very beginning with fixed amount of gold a player can carry with himself. It was nailed at 100k, so for more expensive items something needed to be traded alongside those 100k. So, it was ecto. There is no need to nerf SF, or any other skill. Simply let characters carry unlimited cash and the problem is solved.

Are you joking or for reals...

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

16 Nov 2009 at 18:40 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You know that SF can be used in other places, not just UW, right?

False, SF is rarely being used outside of UW.

Kenzo Skunk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2009

16 Nov 2009 at 18:54 - 178

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scar ra

Are you joking or for reals...

When you find your brain plug, you`ll figure it out yourself.

evilseabass

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2007

16 Nov 2009 at 19:13 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

False, SF is rarely being used outside of UW.

LMAO! You realize that a perma can run most dungeons in EotN, right?

I said it before and I'll say it again: The problem with SF is that it allows the user to skip all monsters between the player and his objective, i.e. enter dungeon, run straight to the end and kill boss to get key or reward, rinse and repeat...

No other skill in the game allows that kind of abuse.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

16 Nov 2009 at 20:15 - 180

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

False, SF is rarely being used outside of UW.

Where is your list of MMOs that allow an overpowered skill to exist for so long?

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:G...running_builds

Every Assassin build except the rotflmao Echo build uses SF.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:G...farming_builds

Same, except for DB/MB which is pretty meh, as you can use A/E in those areas anyway.

You are either blind or doing that on purpose. Incidentially, I've got to try doing one of those dungeons on my Assassin tomorrow.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

16 Nov 2009 at 21:14 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

There is nothing wrong with SB if you are referring to Spell Breaker.It has no pvp use.

Haven't played HA in the last six months, have you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As Shadowspawn said, I consider grind to be anything that involves doing something that you already did over and over again.

I already vanquished a zone with Sabway. I don't need to do it two hundred more times. Ditto for the missions. I already beat them once. I don't need to beat them again, just because somebody decided that playing the same content with monsters four levels higher is "fun".

I agree that the other "content" you mentioned is grind. I specifically picked those examples because they're less grind intensive than the really miserable titles like Luxon/Kurzick.

Anduin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Ice Dragon Berserker Lodge

W/

16 Nov 2009 at 21:52 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Haven't played HA in the last six months, have you?

I already vanquished a zone with Sabway. I don't need to do it two hundred more times. Ditto for the missions. I already beat them once. I don't need to beat them again, just because somebody decided that playing the same content with monsters four levels higher is "fun".

I agree that the other "content" you mentioned is grind. I specifically picked those examples because they're less grind intensive than the really miserable titles like Luxon/Kurzick.

So, basically, playing the game is grind, as making more than one character means doing these same things over.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

16 Nov 2009 at 22:53 - 183

At least repeating the game with a different class involves using different strategies and skills. (Well, sort of. The rest of your H/H team remains pretty much the same.) But even that turns into grind eventually.

VERY few people beat GW with all ten classes.

Crippie its Tom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

Canada!

none atm

R/A

17 Nov 2009 at 02:13 - 184

Original Post Followup-

In my original post I had posted that monkyway could do it in an unconfirmed 25 minutes, which is garbage and not true (my guild tried this build and were completely unsuccessful in terms of 'speed' clear, as the entire idea of getting the smites across the mountains with recall was flawed. you could probably do all of UW with this, and while yielding high ecto rates you would take ~ an hour and 15 minutes, and thus not qualifying as a speed clear)

As to FoWSC Sinway I posted- It's good as is, check the talk page for the 8th person which makes it great and makes it even faster. Did a few runs with my guild to try to learn it, and we can all see how it will get under 15 minutes once we're all practiced.

With mobway no one has really put a ton of work into testing it and as far as I can tell it's still hitting 45 minutes to over an hour.

Someone did post a picture of a 38 minute run in the farming section (See: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...53#post4944553), but it is still being tested and the builds are not public knowledge to date.

Lastly I want to bring up the build that I have created, titled UWSC Splitway which combines the idea of Monkyway with Mobway. It is still in the early testing stages but we believe that it will be able to qualify as a 'speed' clear once the build is complete. Here's the PvX link for it. http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_Splitway

Thanks,

~Cripp

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

17 Nov 2009 at 11:29 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anduin

So, basically, playing the game is grind, as making more than one character means doing these same things over.

Actually, if you make like 5 or 6 characters in a row... That's basically grind, but with different characters.

Grinding = repetitive action focused on money, faction or experience gain. So you might consider making new characters as a way to get money (for instance, in Factions it's really easy).

Guildmaster Cain

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

Guildmistress Eve [Me], Guildmistress Azura [N], Guildmistress Azumi [A], Guildmistress Jaina [D]

Guildmaster Aeron [Rt], Arthas Ironfist [W], Guild: The Tyrian Templars [TTT]

17 Nov 2009 at 13:58 - 186

Nah i got all professions but its not like grinding, because every Profession is different because of their skills. Unless you go Ursanway on all of them.

Grinding with a Axewielding Wammo =/= Grinding with 55 Monk

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

17 Nov 2009 at 17:40 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

Nah i got all professions but its not like grinding, because every Profession is different because of their skills. Unless you go Ursanway on all of them.

Grinding with a Axewielding Wammo =/= Grinding with 55 Monk

Sweet, we got different kinds of grinding.

The Ghetto Prophet

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2008

Servite Nostrum Animus

E/

18 Nov 2009 at 01:32 - 188

Hey I have an idea: let's pretend we're all brainless and take 4 hours to do underworld because we only brought physical damage so that we didn't upset anyone by doing it in a reasonable time. YEAH!

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

18 Nov 2009 at 05:56 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ghetto Prophet

Hey I have an idea: let's pretend we're all brainless and take 4 hours to do underworld because we only brought physical damage so that we didn't upset anyone by doing it in a reasonable time. YEAH!

Don't need to pretend. Pretty much every "balanced" pugs are like that, in fact 4 hours is probably too conservative of an estimate. 6 hours/failing halfway/fail right at the start by aataxes is more reasonable.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

18 Nov 2009 at 14:08 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ghetto Prophet

Hey I have an idea: let's pretend we're all brainless and take 4 hours to do underworld because we only brought physical damage so that we didn't upset anyone by doing it in a reasonable time. YEAH!

I forgot that people don't understand the meaning of Hard Mode or Elite Area.

Elite Area = Harder than normal thing.

Hard Mode = Harder than Normal Mode.

Hard Mode Elite Area = Supposed to be very hard. It shouldn't take less than an HOUR to make it through.

Still, the best solution would be - change UW and FoW to something like DoA. Basically, each area is separated until you do a quest, but you can start that quest, finish it, and do the rest of them another time. Man, this would be so awesome... And you wouldn't be able to abuse it, seeing how you would need 8k to do it in 8 runs.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

18 Nov 2009 at 21:59 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I forgot that people don't understand the meaning of Hard Mode or Elite Area.

Elite Area = Harder than normal thing.

Hard Mode = Harder than Normal Mode.

Hard Mode Elite Area = Supposed to be very hard. It shouldn't take less than an HOUR to make it through.

Still, the best solution would be - change UW and FoW to something like DoA. Basically, each area is separated until you do a quest, but you can start that quest, finish it, and do the rest of them another time. Man, this would be so awesome... And you wouldn't be able to abuse it, seeing how you would need 8k to do it in 8 runs.

Split the areas and increase the cost by 8 times O_o? Hell NO! If anything they need to jack up the drop from the end chest and the monsters so that the an average 4 hour pug run yields at least 30k. Right now its totally not worth it to do those areas normally because its possible to earn the same doing non-elite areas for 4 hours. 4 hours of frustrating (ya, stat pump monsters are not HARD, it just take longer) grinding in a supposedly "elite" areas yielded 3 ectos + junks for less than 20k, woopdedoo. Might as well just take my unfinished character and go questing/doing mission normally for 4 hours and I would get 20k >.>