UWSC Nerf and Anet's "Progress"

Originally Posted by Deakon

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays.

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

By your defenition ,if mending was overpowered it wouldn't matter because both teams in a GvG would be able to use it.

Originally Posted by Deakon

In PvE, the only ones losing are the monsters

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

Originally Posted by lutz

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ursan Blessing and people saying "don't like it, don't use it."

Originally Posted by Reformed

You can't compare UB and SF. UB got so widespread that outside of very remote places you could find at least 1 lfg for a vanquish or mission. That actually did have a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game. As for the rest...well it seems to imply only the anti-SF crowd has any real concept of what is best for the game. It's possible to be neutral here or even an advocate and still have a relevant opinion. I mean, this is a multiplayer game...right?

Originally Posted by Reformed

Meanwhile ectoplasm has skyrocketed due to speculation and lack of activity (in spite of huge player stored reserves). Yep, everyone sure is better off with 16-18/100 ecto

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What
* On every runnable mission, when it comes up for its Zaishen quest, you can find runners for it. And they use SF.
* For every dungeon, you can find a runner. Using SF (well, a lot of them do).

To paraphrase... you: That actually has a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game.

No please dear god let it not be true what shall we do, ecto is at 6.5k

Originally Posted by Reformed

So? There is a market for running ZQuests and Dungeons whoop de doo. There are a lot of lazy or otherwise unmotivated players out there who don't feel like repeating content for the 10th time. It's also a reflection of how unmotivated some PvE players are to farm PvP for their ZCoins which is far more efficient.

Originally Posted by Reformed

Nice attempt at a troll too bro...thing is like a few other folks around here I got it in my head to move money into asian minis way back when. Small fluctuations in ecto prices don't mean anything to me it's really just an inconvenience when I want to move around the ~2.2 mil I made farming over Halloween.

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

i love people that cry about shadow form, but confess to never using the skill.... well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

see where im going?

if you dont like the skill... dont use it. simples.

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I know. The ease with which said content can be played through, by a single character no less, has devalued it to the point that people don't even want to play it, they rather pay someone else to do it for them. You agree with me, then; and I also wish to add that this devaluation of content needs to end.
Note that missions that can't be run are played just as much, but this time in actual teams.

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I'm sure you are financially independent in-game, don't worry. Oh, wait, so is everyone else, since the in-game economy is totally meaningless and without effect on the actual gameplay.
No matter how much I myself stand to gain or lose, I value decent gameplay over imaginary gold.

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

The problem with your analogy is that it does affect everybody else who does not like SF, or SC in general. It affects the in game economy and the player base. Not every profession gets an equal chance at elite areas and in pve in general. It doesnt help that people seem to want only Sins, Warriors, Necros and Monks to SC everything where GW was designed to incorporate nearly infinite balanced and varying playstyles.

Your analogy more over applies to a monopoly. Do UWSC or be penalized by difficulty finding a team, making less money, finishing it slowly, not being able to do it at all. You cant honestly believe that UWSC is an isolated problem that doesnt have any spillover effects in GW because thats just foolish.

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

1. Monsters are broken. Physical monsters in elite areas hit too hard to manage balancedway. Nuker mobs and attributes for monsters are OP 200+ AoE is imba. Monk monsters heal for too much to manage with steady stream of dmg from balanced team.

2. Design of entire elite area is poor. Non linear elite areas with bugged and static, predictable objectives. Same monster mobs with predictable skills, behaviors, and patrol patterns.

3. Invent gimmick. Ursan Blessing, Imbagon, 55/600 Smite duo, Shadowform. Pick your poison. Classes vamped for pvp (Mesmer, Sin, Rit) and poorly designed(Para, Derv) get little to no love except select gimmick builds that can be generically applied to almost any area due to the sheer intensity of how broken the build is (SF, Spirit spam, Imba)

4. Use unique properties of gimmick to abuse the design of an elite area and clear easily with little skill, thought, and time put into efforts. Buy consumables to make it even easier. Propagate bullshit amongst peers.

SF, OF, and SB are only the third step needed to abuse an elite area where nerfing them is the quickest easiest solution that does not address the core problem underlying speed clears.

Linear pathways thru elite areas should make it take longer even if a gimmick is used, reducing the need of a gimmick build. Mobs and monsters need to adjusted accordingly to promote balanced gameplay where each and every profession has an equal chance to participate in an elite area. Since these monsters are broken the need for a gimmick arises and takes priority over a balanced group. (How else to deal with a group of 10+ lvl 30 monsters pumping out 100-300 dmg each each couple of seconds w/o something that is also broken?)

Realistically UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz should take 1-2 hours gimmick or balanced. DoA and slavers should take 3-5 hours but are able to be completed piece wise and progressively with rewards from chests and drops scaled accordingly.

There are more important things to do before a nerf to SF, OF, and SB are applied, and various nerfs to SF, OF, SB need to be applied. Anet just now realizes that due to pvp classes have been terrible in pve and are adjusting with pve/vp splits. However, that cannot apply to all classes where Sin, Mes, and Rit are very pvp oriented due to the lack of defense, AoE, and durability in pve or being outshined by other professions.
Dervish and paragons are excellent at what they do but are only used for very select builds to the point where nothing else becomes effective. They both need deep class reform.

Consumables only increase the problem allowing gimmicks to become more effective and even easier to pull off with the chance of failure being reduced.

So nerfing skills is not even the tip of the iceberg with so many issues at bay. Anet ignoring GW1 for GW2 doesnt help either b/c they figure GW1 is so broken they cannot continue with the same game.

Long winded amirite?

Originally Posted by Sora of the Divine

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

Originally Posted by kazjun

You're wrong here. People pug because its quick and hard to fail. You change it so that it takes 2 hours and plenty of places they can die and waste all of their time and people will pug less not more.

You take away the set build that any idiot could run, then you're going to insist that they run the builds you ping and that they do well first time through or you just won't take them again. Eventually, you'd end up only going with friends or guildies and only the guys that have no guild or enough friends will pug. This will only happen quicker if you make the run take longer. No one nowadays wants to spend 2 hours doing a zone to fail at the last quest and get booted. Hell, no wants to spend 2 hours in a zone full stop unless theres some awesome reward.

Don't believe me? Look at DOA. Only full guilds do runs there nowadays that don't use the 600/smite/SF route. Pugs were full there when it was ursan cause you could take anybody and it was quick. Nowadays, no one pugs unless their guild can't come and must don't pug at all cause non-invinci builds either fail massively or take too long. Kill SF/600 smite and DOA really will become dead zones as will most dungeons.

FOW and UW shouldn't be as badly affected cause they aren't that hard and there's always chances for ectos and shards as well as the end chest. Most dungeons only got endchests, and only a few dungeon's endchests drop anything worth while. Nerf SF and all the other 'invinci' builds you want, just don't be under the delusion that this will suddenly make people pug more. Doing two hours with friends or guildies, cool. And if you fail, you can rib them for the next couple of runs. Doing two hours with people you don't know and could be complete idiots, all the time waiting to see where they're going to fail? No thanks.

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What are you smoking bro

FoW HM takes about an hour to clear using a balanced setup. UW as long as everyone knows what to do (mostly: don't take quests randomly) is rather easy except for two or even one of the quests. To call these areas "incredibly hard" is just wrong and incorrect.

Originally Posted by coil

sorry, if i'm running my 3rd or 6th char through NF i'm wanting to do it as fast as possible. I got the lore on the 1st go, i enjoyed the graphics/challenge on the 2nd go and now i just want to get it done.why people like you complain about the way other people, like me, choose to play a game is something i'll never understand.

Originally Posted by coil

i fail to see how any other player using any skill they choose to has anything to do with your experience of "Decent gameplay".