UWSC Nerf and Anet's "Progress" - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

10 Nov 2009 at 04:38 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

The market for items has deteriorated because of invincible builds. While I've pretty much given up on the idea that Anet will nerf them, the least we can do is raise a big enough [email protected] so that GW2 won't have any of them.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

10 Nov 2009 at 05:00 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There's nothing wrong with solo farming. It just shouldn't be so efficient that it crowds out other alternatives. Same for speed clears; there's nothing wrong with doing things quickly, but when a single approach is both efficient enough to crowd out alternatives and skilless, something should be done.

The problem is that the game doesn't really balance time spent with rewards.

UW with a general team with 2 front liners/4 mid liners/ 2 back liners (typical PvP balanced team) will take ages to finish UW.

Consumables help stuff to be made faster, but at the same time also make those things pretty much mindless.

Elite areas simply aren't designed well.

The Skeleton of Dhuum + quests changes nerfed the SF UWSC, but they have done nothing to buff balanced play. And when balanced play can include consumables, PvE only skills and stuff like Shadow Form, it is hard to define a balanced team.

PvE as long ago moved away from the pleasant PvP balanced team configuration, and it isn't about being skill at managing your resources and team synergies but at AI and Skills/Consumables abuse.

So, yep UWSC has been nerfed. But has balanced play with using no degenerated gaming elements (like consumables/PvE-only skills/ broken skills like SF) been buffed? The answer is no. It has never been.

So basically all these things only accomplish keeping the "old fortunes" bigger than the new ones (unless u get some lucky mini polar bear or something of the sort), even if those fortunes were made by req 8, unconditional 15% weps, 55 abuse, etc, that can no longer be replicated.

Shame that my beloved hammer W/Me smite farmer got caught on the crossfire. The summoner build is just as profitable but a hour long farm isn't as attractive as a 15-20 min farm that could be used to kill a small amount of free time.

EDIT: Is also fun reading about "how degenerate invincible builds" killed the "economy".

Anet killed most of the economy with the introduction of inscriptions. HM gave it a hand afterward. All the rest of the economy was created by again by Anet, with drops based on badly designed areas that take hours to complete like DoA, or some item that only drop randomly on a chest on the end of hours long dungeons/UW/FoW.

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

10 Nov 2009 at 05:00 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

In short, I'm just going to tell you to read X Dr Pepper X's post.

You need to think deeper about things than current mob mentality.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

10 Nov 2009 at 05:10 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

In short, I'm just going to tell you to read X Dr Pepper X's post.

You need to think deeper about things than current mob mentality.

I agree.

Actually, people don't even know what a normal team is and/or are unprepared to play on one, because in a balanced team every single character is non-linear and has 2 or more responsibilities.

For example, a Monk has to both heal and protect - how many ppl can do that?

A frontliner has to both deal damage, body block, choose who to fight, etc.

A midliner like an ele has to deal damage and then help on defense and/or offense of the team.

Etc, etc.

kazjun

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

HoVa

W/N

10 Nov 2009 at 05:14 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

QFT
We'd see the end of most degenerative high-end farming if these skills were to die. Then people would actually have to form real teams *gasp!* to handle the areas.

You're wrong here. People pug because its quick and hard to fail. You change it so that it takes 2 hours and plenty of places they can die and waste all of their time and people will pug less not more.

This is same as ursan was. Hard to fail with SF so they are willing to take any stranger that shows up. Also quite fast so if that random you picked up was bad, np, you only wasted about 15 mins.

You take away the set build that any idiot could run, then you're going to insist that they run the builds you ping and that they do well first time through or you just won't take them again. Eventually, you'd end up only going with friends or guildies and only the guys that have no guild or enough friends will pug. This will only happen quicker if you make the run take longer. No one nowadays wants to spend 2 hours doing a zone to fail at the last quest and get booted. Hell, no wants to spend 2 hours in a zone full stop unless theres some awesome reward.

Don't believe me? Look at DOA. Only full guilds do runs there nowadays that don't use the 600/smite/SF route. Pugs were full there when it was ursan cause you could take anybody and it was quick. Nowadays, no one pugs unless their guild can't come and must don't pug at all cause non-invinci builds either fail massively or take too long. Kill SF/600 smite and DOA really will become dead zones as will most dungeons.

FOW and UW shouldn't be as badly affected cause they aren't that hard and there's always chances for ectos and shards as well as the end chest. Most dungeons only got endchests, and only a few dungeon's endchests drop anything worth while. Nerf SF and all the other 'invinci' builds you want, just don't be under the delusion that this will suddenly make people pug more. Doing two hours with friends or guildies, cool. And if you fail, you can rib them for the next couple of runs. Doing two hours with people you don't know and could be complete idiots, all the time waiting to see where they're going to fail? No thanks.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

10 Nov 2009 at 06:49 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caligo

You can't honestly believe that it's fair to nerf an elite skill because an outside source improves it's originally intended effect... That's insane. You may as well claim that people with PCs that are better than the minimum requirements shouldn't be allowed to play.

So, there's a skill and it has a penalty. That penalty used to mean something, and as a result the skill was fine. Now the penalty doesn't mean anything due to a design change, and the skill isn't fine. Simple.

Sure, it's not as broken as SF. But nerfing SF and leaving OF is rather pointless for a good chunk of the content people use SF for, including UW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The problem is that the game doesn't really balance time spent with rewards.

Which is why the economy and PvE balance are as screwed up as they are. 95% of the game's outposts are totally dead because people have already completed the content, and have moved to the most efficient farm for whatever they're after. A system like the Zaishen quest rewards that creates congregation focal points is a great idea for addressing low activity levels. But it's useless if the quest rewards aren't valuable enough to draw skilled players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So basically all these things only accomplish keeping the "old fortunes" bigger than the new ones (unless u get some lucky mini polar bear or something of the sort), even if those fortunes were made by req 8, unconditional 15% weps, 55 abuse, etc, that can no longer be replicated.

Which is exactly the problem. Once people figure out that they're lemmings running on ANet's treadmill, they quit. The game needed a better PvE reward system than it had. Assigning drops was a nice innovation, but insufficient to push PvE above the level of Diablo 2. Which wasn't afraid to admit what it was - a grindfest for gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

People won't form normal teams to clear the area.
Before UWSC, I rarely even saw normal groups forming.

Good. The stuff out of that end chest should have been very rare. Easy ecto farming is bad. Need I say more?

There's an argument to be made that killing SF is locking the barn door after the horse is gone, which is what I think you're trying to get at here. But if ANet can't be bothered to take the principled stand, it'll just further confirm that EotN was Nightfall without a decent campaign: sellout content intended to sell copies via power creep with no regard for the long-term health of the game. Too many good gaming companies have killed themselves off that way; you'd think people would learn.

Regulus X

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

N/A

D/W

10 Nov 2009 at 06:49 - 47

no1 cares.. DEATH to UW/FoW/DoA/PvE/GW1! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! *explodes*

Winry Sagara

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2009

Sorrow Knight [SS]

E/

10 Nov 2009 at 06:51 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

I disagree with this blanket statement.

OF is fine as is because it only protects against spells. Skills and Attacks still hit, AND there is that horrible movement penalty...

SB is also fine as-is because it doesnt protect against skills and attacks either, just spells.

SF is broken because it protects against spells and attacks. The only way to hurt a perma-sin is by touching or no-target-specified AoE, which arent widely used by monsters in the game...

[edit] Also, the other problem with perma-sin is their ability to basically run past everything, kill a target, then move on to next objective. Take Oola's Lab dungeon for example: The perma runs through all of level 1, kills Xien, then picks up the key and moves to level 2. On level 2, they run past everything, kill golem, pick up key then move to level 3. If alone, the perma only has to kill the TPS golem to get reward...Its the same with almost everything a perma can run, i.e. they skip everything in between and simply get the rewards.

With a 600/Smite team, or a balanced team, they have to kill everything in-between...

This is, exactly, what I think abount this annoying things.

Test Me

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2008

E/

10 Nov 2009 at 08:27 - 49

The way they nerfed UW is horrible for "balanced teams" and i assume none of the people here advising nerfs to the gimmik farming builds have actually tried and successfully completed UW with a balanced team since the change.

So, before you talk get ingame pug or form your balanced team, clear all of uW and then you may have an opinion on the matter. Until then you have no clue what you're talking about.

I've played all weeked with balanced teams from my alliance and i've pugged and in 2.5 days and tons of tries not once not a single team of all those where able to go past Servants of Grenth. Do you know what 5 skellies spawning with the rest of the normal spawns do to a ballanced team?

I think the nerf is a horrible one. It made it impossible to do even on NM without gimmik builds and ANet added "monster skills" that just make the AI cheat and don't go well with the existing mechanics as it is impossible to do anything against the skills of the skellies. The only option is to outheal their crazy 400/500 party wide damage spikes (given 4/5 skellies pop) not to mention that skellies are not the only things that pop and that all that damage comes from a single skill if a skeleton in NM, while they have a second one just as good. And they're the same in NM and HM.

So good luck with your balanced teams theories. I am really dissapointed by the AI cheat they've added to ruin UW for all. They could have added an enchant removal that went through SF with normal game mechanics but no they chose to add instant party death damage through no exsiting game mechanic so any sort of damage prevention GW players have is useless.

So go try it first and talk after.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

10 Nov 2009 at 08:58 - 50

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

QueenofDeath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2009

10 Nov 2009 at 10:12 - 51

Quote:

it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable

And these high end areas shouldn't be profitable in that sense. Only the looted rare items should have a draw down in these areas. Only rare loots should drop from these areas and at the very ends of the area not all over the place like ectoes. They should make ectoes even more uncommon also so they will be more valueable but remove them as a need for the Obsidian armors.

Also to keep the elite areas populated make all rare items that drop in them "no drop/no trade" except for your own account.

) That way anybody that really wants the skins in them will have to get them themselves in a group or with heroes/henchies which they should also open these areas up for.

It's always been the ability to trade between other players and over farming because of that that has ruined so many of these games. Make players actually adventure for their stuff instead of buying gold online to pay for it. By making most everything good no drop no trade you will eliminate a lot of the gold selling in them. Not saying everything has to be no drop no trade only the best stuff, players can still trade resources for garbage collectors gear/armor, but, not for anything of major worth. The other thing would be to add DECAY to the games equipment (nothing lasts forever in the real world why should it in an alternate world). With decay nobody will have much wealth they can horde or stockup on rare gear and sell it for 1000's of plat. If they are going to leave the trading game in then bring in DECAY! YES! Best idea ever.

)

Kali Magdalene

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Washington

N/

10 Nov 2009 at 10:44 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

I see hope springs eternal.

Targren

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Primeval Warlords[wuw]

R/

10 Nov 2009 at 13:20 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

an attempt to shut the anti-SF crowd.

I'm fairly sure that, at this point, nothing short of a shotgun blast to the bonce will accomplish that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenOfDeath

The other thing would be to add DECAY to the games equipment (nothing lasts forever in the real world why should it in an alternate world)

Because decay mechanics in games invariably suck? The average MMO seems too much like a job already (thankfully GW managed to avoid that) to have to do things like making a monthly frigging weapons budget. "Accountant Wars" sounds really really boring.

rkubik

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 13:30 - 54

I think we all need to remember that GW is a dying game and some people play the game just to do speed clears or run people from point A to B because they feel they have no other challenges in the game. Without that ability there would be many people who just wouldn't play anymore. While I do not agree with a super fast speed clear I think A-net is trying to find that middle point where they can try and please everyone and still keep their player base until GW2 comes out. While I still enjoy the game I feel it is a very fragile point for A-net where a major change could ultimately affect future sales and the success of their company. It is a business and they are here to make money and every decision needs to be caluculated to try and get the best result for them and their players. While some changes have taken time I think history shows that for the most part A-net has done some good things when the players ask or their is a concern.

Stop The Storm

Keeping DoA Alive

Join Date: Jan 2007

England

Were In [DoA]

A/N

10 Nov 2009 at 13:35 - 55

i love people that cry about shadow form, but confess to never using the skill.... well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

see where im going?

if you dont like the skill... dont use it. simples.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 13:37 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

What are you smoking bro

FoW HM takes about an hour to clear using a balanced setup. UW as long as everyone knows what to do (mostly: don't take quests randomly) is rather easy except for two or even one of the quests. To call these areas "incredibly hard" is just wrong and incorrect.

Xenex Xclame

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

DPX

R/

10 Nov 2009 at 13:54 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

You might complain if Mc Donald's was the only place you could eat at.

Complaining doesn't make the issue any less valid,broken is broken.

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

10 Nov 2009 at 14:00 - 58

Right... Right... Because something is easy for a "good group" as you call it though, does not mean a "good" group is easy to come by though.
Anet needs to balance UW difficulty and promote normal clears before they nuke the farms. But there must be something that prevents them from doing so. Or perhaps it is Dhuum who will remedy this.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

10 Nov 2009 at 14:11 - 59

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays. So what if Joe Farmer has 5 stacks of ecto in storage? He can use the money to change the pixels on his screen or buy useless items like rare minipets, rare armor, rare weapons etc. etc. None of which gives him an advantage over other players. This whole argument over "game-breaking" skills is stupid. Nothing is broken. The existence of UWSC hasn't prevented me from doing anything I want to do or have anything I want to have. Let it rest already.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 14:42 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays. So what if Joe Farmer has 5 stacks of ecto in storage? He can use the money to change the pixels on his screen or buy useless items like rare minipets, rare armor, rare weapons etc. etc. None of which gives him an advantage over other players. This whole argument over "game-breaking" skills is stupid. Nothing is broken. The existence of UWSC hasn't prevented me from doing anything I want to do or have anything I want to have. Let it rest already.

I don't mind posting and reposting this:

What is playing a game well about? It's about making optimal choices leading to winning the game. If those choices are fun to make, victory will be entertaining both to achieve and to play for, which combines to make what is known as a fun game.

I have an example for you. If Word of Healing is better than Healing Breeze, then if the choice is between those two, you'd be stupid to choose Healing Breeze. The problem is, what if Word of Healing didn't just heal, but made you invulnerable? It would still be better than Breeze, but it would be so good that it makes the game boring since it's too easy. There's no challenge left, except meta-challenges like speedclearing some elite area one minute faster than some other team, or dumb shit like solo running some dungeon in 7 minutes, or even better, paying someone else to do it. Which is boring and not what GW is supposed to be about. But you'd still be stupid to choose Breeze.

And oh hey that's just what Shadow Form does to GW right now. It makes you choose between stupid and boring. Neither option makes for a fun game, as I explained above.

Here's where I know what you will say next.

What if you enjoy inferior skills? Yeah, there are people that like to intentionally or not play crappy skills or builds, using stupid tactics and generally be retarded. I don't.

What if you want to make your own challenge by intentionally picking bad builds? Well, apart from the obvious difficulty of finding a team for anything that isn't the Zaishen quest of the day, even more so if you tell everyone that they'll be playing a worse build than the PvXwiki flavor of the month, that challenge should be provided by the game, not by yourself. That is what balanced gameplay is all about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Right... Right... Because something is easy for a "good group" as you call it though, does not mean a "good" group is easy to come by though.

It doesn't need to be a good group. If you can play a HM mission successfully (most people can), you can get through FoW. If you can do the above and also abstain from taking every quest as soon as you see it, you can get through UW, with the exception of one single quest.

Xenex Xclame

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

DPX

R/

10 Nov 2009 at 14:44 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays.

By your defenition ,if mending was overpowered it wouldn't matter because both teams in a GvG would be able to use it.

So its perfectly fine for us to have a skill that did 3000 damage every second for 5 second to all foes in the area, as long as both sides of the GvG had access to it.

There is not much wrong with OP skills in PvE,before Anet introduced them they were wrong,but since they introduced them,there is nothing wrong with them, we have skills like Eternal Aura,Seed of Life and Summon Spirits to name a few,but it becomes a problem when the skills stop being OP and start being broken.Which guess what?SF is.

Deakon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Arkansas

Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]

Mo/E

10 Nov 2009 at 14:48 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

By your defenition ,if mending was overpowered it wouldn't matter because both teams in a GvG would be able to use it.

No... GvG is PvP. Please read my entire post. In PvE, the only ones losing are the monsters and I have yet to hear them complain about the skills I use.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 15:01 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

In PvE, the only ones losing are the monsters

No, you are wrong.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

R/

10 Nov 2009 at 15:34 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

1. Ursan Blessing and people saying "don't like it, don't use it."
2. Be quiet and let the people who care about the state of the game talk. You obviously would be better off with Oblivion, using cheats to get 100000 cash, custom armor with invisibility and running around, killing everything on your way. You know, in single-player game it's acceptable (but then again, what's the point....). This is a MULTIPLAYER game.
3. This is a multiPLAYER game. A MULTIplayer game. Where it's more than just you, who thinks a game is okay like it is.
4. Again, Ursan Blessing and people saying "they'll never nerf it". And they nerfed it. It took over a year, but they finally nerfed it - anyone who wants to use it, will use it probably solo or as a support DPS. It just no longer compresses DPS, tank and running builds into a single elite skill. Then again, SF combines "Avoids all attacks", "Cancells all directed enemy spells" and "permanent" into one skill, which doesn't even require much skill to use in the first place. In any game, any MMO, any RPG, a spell that combines at least two of those things is overpowered. So what that you deal 33% damage less? People around you don't. And degen is still working, so are buffs and Sliver Armor + Ebon Standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

Stop playing with my emotions.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

10 Nov 2009 at 15:53 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ursan Blessing and people saying "don't like it, don't use it."

You can't compare UB and SF. UB got so widespread that outside of very remote places you could find at least 1 lfg for a vanquish or mission. That actually did have a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game. As for the rest...well it seems to imply only the anti-SF crowd has any real concept of what is best for the game. It's possible to be neutral here or even an advocate and still have a relevant opinion. I mean, this is a multiplayer game...right?

As for the original topic...the UWSC that everyone around here seemed to hate so much is gone besides particularly skilled groups. TotA is forming a steady supply of FoWSC or 600/smite UW farm teams and outside of a vale team advertising in vain I've seen next to nothing. Meanwhile ectoplasm has skyrocketed due to speculation and lack of activity (in spite of huge player stored reserves). Yep, everyone sure is better off with 16-18/100 ecto

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 16:20 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

You can't compare UB and SF. UB got so widespread that outside of very remote places you could find at least 1 lfg for a vanquish or mission. That actually did have a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game. As for the rest...well it seems to imply only the anti-SF crowd has any real concept of what is best for the game. It's possible to be neutral here or even an advocate and still have a relevant opinion. I mean, this is a multiplayer game...right?

What
* On every runnable mission, when it comes up for its Zaishen quest, you can find runners for it. And they use SF.
* For every dungeon, you can find a runner. Using SF (well, a lot of them do).

To paraphrase... you: That actually has a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Meanwhile ectoplasm has skyrocketed due to speculation and lack of activity (in spite of huge player stored reserves). Yep, everyone sure is better off with 16-18/100 ecto

No please dear god let it not be true what shall we do, ecto is at 6.5k

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

10 Nov 2009 at 16:25 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What
* On every runnable mission, when it comes up for its Zaishen quest, you can find runners for it. And they use SF.
* For every dungeon, you can find a runner. Using SF (well, a lot of them do).

To paraphrase... you: That actually has a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game.

No please dear god let it not be true what shall we do, ecto is at 6.5k

So? There is a market for running ZQuests and Dungeons whoop de doo. There are a lot of lazy or otherwise unmotivated players out there who don't feel like repeating content for the 10th time. It's also a reflection of how unmotivated some PvE players are to farm PvP for their ZCoins which is far more efficient.

Nice attempt at a troll too bro...thing is like a few other folks around here I got it in my head to move money into asian minis way back when. Small fluctuations in ecto prices don't mean anything to me it's really just an inconvenience when I want to move around the ~2.2 mil I made farming over Halloween.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

10 Nov 2009 at 16:40 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

So? There is a market for running ZQuests and Dungeons whoop de doo. There are a lot of lazy or otherwise unmotivated players out there who don't feel like repeating content for the 10th time. It's also a reflection of how unmotivated some PvE players are to farm PvP for their ZCoins which is far more efficient.

I know. The ease with which said content can be played through, by a single character no less, has devalued it to the point that people don't even want to play it, they rather pay someone else to do it for them. You agree with me, then; and I also wish to add that this devaluation of content needs to end.
Note that missions that can't be run are played just as much, but this time in actual teams.

Regarding PvP, I believe that it has less to do with motivation and more to do with expected returns; most PvE players suck horribly at PvP and would lose far more than they'd win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Nice attempt at a troll too bro...thing is like a few other folks around here I got it in my head to move money into asian minis way back when. Small fluctuations in ecto prices don't mean anything to me it's really just an inconvenience when I want to move around the ~2.2 mil I made farming over Halloween.

I'm sure you are financially independent in-game, don't worry. Oh, wait, so is everyone else, since the in-game economy is totally meaningless and without effect on the actual gameplay.
No matter how much I myself stand to gain or lose, I value decent gameplay over imaginary gold.

X Dr Pepper X

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

The Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

10 Nov 2009 at 17:30 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

i love people that cry about shadow form, but confess to never using the skill.... well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

see where im going?

if you dont like the skill... dont use it. simples.

The problem with your analogy is that it does affect everybody else who does not like SF, or SC in general. It affects the in game economy and the player base. Not every profession gets an equal chance at elite areas and in pve in general. It doesnt help that people seem to want only Sins, Warriors, Necros and Monks to SC everything where GW was designed to incorporate nearly infinite balanced and varying playstyles.

Your analogy more over applies to a monopoly. Do UWSC or be penalized by difficulty finding a team, making less money, finishing it slowly, not being able to do it at all. You cant honestly believe that UWSC is an isolated problem that doesnt have any spillover effects in GW because thats just foolish.

coil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

10 Nov 2009 at 19:15 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I know. The ease with which said content can be played through, by a single character no less, has devalued it to the point that people don't even want to play it, they rather pay someone else to do it for them. You agree with me, then; and I also wish to add that this devaluation of content needs to end.
Note that missions that can't be run are played just as much, but this time in actual teams.

sorry, if i'm running my 3rd or 6th char through NF i'm wanting to do it as fast as possible. I got the lore on the 1st go, i enjoyed the graphics/challenge on the 2nd go and now i just want to get it done.why people like you complain about the way other people, like me, choose to play a game is something i'll never understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I'm sure you are financially independent in-game, don't worry. Oh, wait, so is everyone else, since the in-game economy is totally meaningless and without effect on the actual gameplay.
No matter how much I myself stand to gain or lose, I value decent gameplay over imaginary gold.

.

again, if you aren't crying about cheaper ectos (which do have their affect on gameplay), then what's the big deal? no one is forcing you to use any skills or group with ANYONE. if you hate everyone else, use your heroes. i fail to see how any other player using any skill they choose to has anything to do with your experience of "Decent gameplay".

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

The problem with your analogy is that it does affect everybody else who does not like SF, or SC in general. It affects the in game economy and the player base. Not every profession gets an equal chance at elite areas and in pve in general. It doesnt help that people seem to want only Sins, Warriors, Necros and Monks to SC everything where GW was designed to incorporate nearly infinite balanced and varying playstyles.

Your analogy more over applies to a monopoly. Do UWSC or be penalized by difficulty finding a team, making less money, finishing it slowly, not being able to do it at all. You cant honestly believe that UWSC is an isolated problem that doesnt have any spillover effects in GW because thats just foolish.

that's not true and i'm sure you know it being in a high end guild. i've completed uw on all but 1 of my ascended chars as vale support with friends. ANY char could have done uw under uwsc. it would have taken friends or a guild to accept them but it was still 100% possible. even for fow you can have 1 or 2 slots that can be slightly altered to alot for an awkward primary profession. the only place i'd see you having some difficulty would be doa, but that's still possible...would just take some convincing of guildies. if you look at any of the SC builds close enough you can find slight alterations that will still work to get your char credit for accomplishment. and yes, your char may not be as welcome in future runs since you already have a statue and it may be speedier with another primary...but that's the meta....a complete different subject. and even then, no one is forcing you to play the meta.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

11 Nov 2009 at 00:16 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

1. Monsters are broken. Physical monsters in elite areas hit too hard to manage balancedway. Nuker mobs and attributes for monsters are OP 200+ AoE is imba. Monk monsters heal for too much to manage with steady stream of dmg from balanced team.

2. Design of entire elite area is poor. Non linear elite areas with bugged and static, predictable objectives. Same monster mobs with predictable skills, behaviors, and patrol patterns.

3. Invent gimmick. Ursan Blessing, Imbagon, 55/600 Smite duo, Shadowform. Pick your poison. Classes vamped for pvp (Mesmer, Sin, Rit) and poorly designed(Para, Derv) get little to no love except select gimmick builds that can be generically applied to almost any area due to the sheer intensity of how broken the build is (SF, Spirit spam, Imba)

4. Use unique properties of gimmick to abuse the design of an elite area and clear easily with little skill, thought, and time put into efforts. Buy consumables to make it even easier. Propagate bullshit amongst peers.

SF, OF, and SB are only the third step needed to abuse an elite area where nerfing them is the quickest easiest solution that does not address the core problem underlying speed clears.

Linear pathways thru elite areas should make it take longer even if a gimmick is used, reducing the need of a gimmick build. Mobs and monsters need to adjusted accordingly to promote balanced gameplay where each and every profession has an equal chance to participate in an elite area. Since these monsters are broken the need for a gimmick arises and takes priority over a balanced group. (How else to deal with a group of 10+ lvl 30 monsters pumping out 100-300 dmg each each couple of seconds w/o something that is also broken?)

Realistically UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz should take 1-2 hours gimmick or balanced. DoA and slavers should take 3-5 hours but are able to be completed piece wise and progressively with rewards from chests and drops scaled accordingly.

There are more important things to do before a nerf to SF, OF, and SB are applied, and various nerfs to SF, OF, SB need to be applied. Anet just now realizes that due to pvp classes have been terrible in pve and are adjusting with pve/vp splits. However, that cannot apply to all classes where Sin, Mes, and Rit are very pvp oriented due to the lack of defense, AoE, and durability in pve or being outshined by other professions.
Dervish and paragons are excellent at what they do but are only used for very select builds to the point where nothing else becomes effective. They both need deep class reform.

Consumables only increase the problem allowing gimmicks to become more effective and even easier to pull off with the chance of failure being reduced.

So nerfing skills is not even the tip of the iceberg with so many issues at bay. Anet ignoring GW1 for GW2 doesnt help either b/c they figure GW1 is so broken they cannot continue with the same game.

Long winded amirite?

This was a very good post. Unfortunate it was ignored in another blood-thirsty SF bash-fest.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

11 Nov 2009 at 01:48 - 72

We've all known this for a long time. Thing is, we also realize that Anet is never going to go to the trouble of re-designing these areas. So, the best we can hope for is for them to fix the overpowered crap.

Of course, fixing the areas wouldn't mean jack if SF was still around, so no matter what you do it needs to be fixed.

Sora267

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

11 Nov 2009 at 02:01 - 73

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

Caligo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

Missouri, USA (GMT -6)

Stop Stealing [agro]

Mo/

11 Nov 2009 at 02:36 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sora of the Divine

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

Amen! Amen! AMEN! Nice summary.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

11 Nov 2009 at 04:15 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

You're wrong here. People pug because its quick and hard to fail. You change it so that it takes 2 hours and plenty of places they can die and waste all of their time and people will pug less not more.

You take away the set build that any idiot could run, then you're going to insist that they run the builds you ping and that they do well first time through or you just won't take them again. Eventually, you'd end up only going with friends or guildies and only the guys that have no guild or enough friends will pug. This will only happen quicker if you make the run take longer. No one nowadays wants to spend 2 hours doing a zone to fail at the last quest and get booted. Hell, no wants to spend 2 hours in a zone full stop unless theres some awesome reward.

Don't believe me? Look at DOA. Only full guilds do runs there nowadays that don't use the 600/smite/SF route. Pugs were full there when it was ursan cause you could take anybody and it was quick. Nowadays, no one pugs unless their guild can't come and must don't pug at all cause non-invinci builds either fail massively or take too long. Kill SF/600 smite and DOA really will become dead zones as will most dungeons.

FOW and UW shouldn't be as badly affected cause they aren't that hard and there's always chances for ectos and shards as well as the end chest. Most dungeons only got endchests, and only a few dungeon's endchests drop anything worth while. Nerf SF and all the other 'invinci' builds you want, just don't be under the delusion that this will suddenly make people pug more. Doing two hours with friends or guildies, cool. And if you fail, you can rib them for the next couple of runs. Doing two hours with people you don't know and could be complete idiots, all the time waiting to see where they're going to fail? No thanks.

To start off, I had many good experiences with PUGs before NF and the favor update. Why? Since America could never win in halls, a pug would actually plan out what they were going to do before entering FoW or UW, so that we wouldn't get kicked for doing something stupid and have to wait ~5hours to get another chance to get in. The PUGs of today are much different; people grab a group and run their specific spot and minimize the time for clears. There's really no planning involved since everyone has a specified role. People don't want to pug because it's less of a hassle and easier to SC. If invincibility was nerfed, guilds would actually have to run "balanced" builds if they want to continue farming for the item. There wouldn't be a surge in pugs even if all of the monsters started dropping ectos because people are bored with the areas as it is.

Elite areas SHOULD take more than an hour because they are supposed to be HARD- you are also rewarded with rare drops. The problem is is that this game is stale, and people have done the areas multiple times. They are tired of doing the same dungeon for a chance to get a rare item that will be useless when GW2 comes out, so they resort to SCs and dungeon runs that completly bypass the challenge of the areas. People don't want to play the areas anymore, they just want the fancy items.

DoA was a result of all the broken skills that Anet decided to keep in their game- it's no wonder why it's so unpopular. Fighting mobs that are 8 levels above you and have twice the size of your party isn't really appealing to the holy trinity. DoA will never be fixed since anet seems to have better things to do, so I really don't care if it becomes a dust town.

The least anet could do is make sure that the invincible skills aren't implemented in GW2, so that they would actually have to balance their AI instead of increasing numbers.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

11 Nov 2009 at 06:24 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

QFT. The last time I finished UW with an average "balanced" pug all I got was 3 ectos and a bag of junk of ~2k, for a total of ~15k...since it took 3 hours to complete (including ~30min of weeding out/correct obvious failure builds, ~15min of instant failures by clueless casters tanking aataxes, and at least 15min of of "washroom breaks" "mom calls" "lag") the reward only came out to be 5k per hour. Keep in mind this is a SUCESSFUL one time pug, who knows how much per hour when I take into account all the utter failure non-SC pugs..

I get more by feather farming in faction NEWBIE AREA (at least 10k/hr). Same with raptor farm and probably countless other solo farm. Hell I don't even need to farm, all I need to do is to do random Z quest with other stuff and I would earn the same or more. Also with PvP Z quest I earn far in excess of what I get with balanced UW groups (Quest Reward + Faction Zkeys + Coins to trade in for saleable stuff). I can also run people....I got more in "donations" from easy drok runs than from UW. Or I can just vanquish areas with 300-400 foes and get 1.5k of vanquish reward every 30min for a grand total of 3k + ~2k worth of junk loot + amber/jade money (I have max faction title)...surprise surprise ~5k/hr

At the end those areas are not worth it to do unless you want to get FoW armor. It seems like all Anet did when designing the reward for end game areas is to just multiply the reward based on how much longer it takes to do with an average successful group, without taking into considering that the difficulty cause most to fail and adjust accordingly. Ya, they did put rare items into the end chest....but the chance of getting one is so small by the time you get the jackpot GW2 is out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What are you smoking bro

FoW HM takes about an hour to clear using a balanced setup. UW as long as everyone knows what to do (mostly: don't take quests randomly) is rather easy except for two or even one of the quests. To call these areas "incredibly hard" is just wrong and incorrect.

Even if it only take 1.5 hr to complete UW the reward still doesn't stand up to nearly any decent solo farm.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

11 Nov 2009 at 07:21 - 77

Quote:

Even if it only take 1.5 hr to complete UW the reward still doesn't stand up to nearly any decent solo farm.

That is the problem.
The short period of time, without a team to share the rewards....is not acceptable in an online game.
A single player game...maybe, but not a team oriented game by design.
And skelly's aren't that difficult.

Improvavel

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2007

11 Nov 2009 at 07:33 - 78

Really, it doesn't matter.

GW is a tremendous good game, with quite a fresh system, where you need to rely on team performing different roles, where self-heals can go kiss a certain place and there are no crappy potions to made up, etc,etc.

Somewhere, Anet got lost.

In some cases Anet was afraid to break conventions, in other went to far.

GW started as a game where the Hardcore players and the occasional players shared the same world in an almost perfect way. Then, Anet caved-in, and created areas for hardcore players that simply destroyed/disregarded GW mechanics and favored gimmicks and exploits.

Then, incredibly, Anet decided to favor players with only 1 Character!!!!!

In a game where one of the most time consuming and crucial aspects is Building a Team with different Professions Character, Anet did this!

Anet can nerf this, change that, revert whatever... It will never really fix this game.

Too much is broken. Any changes will piss someone. Lack of changes will piss the rest.

Lets GW2 role, and hope Anet learned with their mistakes and success and don't take the easy way of destroying the beautiful complexity on such a simple system, to make this game more "WoW'ish".

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

11 Nov 2009 at 07:39 - 79

I am tired of this topic. All the strong objective posts and solid evidence in the world aren't helping people. Let us make this simple...if you think things are fine the way they are now you are wrong. That is a fact. If you think ANet should do something you are right. That is a fact. Lastly, if you say "don't like it don't use it" you are an idiot. Hows that for objective?

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

11 Nov 2009 at 10:48 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

sorry, if i'm running my 3rd or 6th char through NF i'm wanting to do it as fast as possible. I got the lore on the 1st go, i enjoyed the graphics/challenge on the 2nd go and now i just want to get it done.why people like you complain about the way other people, like me, choose to play a game is something i'll never understand.

I don't complain about that. Obviously you didn't read my post.

Tell me, as you obviously don't like the game (what with wanting to get through it "as fast as possible") and all that, why do you play it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i fail to see how any other player using any skill they choose to has anything to do with your experience of "Decent gameplay".

See: The entire Ursan Blessing debate.

And how does the price of ecto affect gameplay in any way whatsoever??