UWSC Nerf and Anet's "Progress" - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Joe Fierce

Wilds Pathfinder

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11 Nov 2009 at 18:21 - 81

WHAAAAA SF NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!

WHAAAAA SF GOT NERFED FOR UW!!

This is all I see. Stop crying. I like what I've seen with the "new" six hundred build that's currently emerging, but it's currently kindof off, it needs some work.

Quit trying to simulate izzy's job by saying this or that should or shouldn't be nerfed, punt the box over to the other side of the room, come up with something new, and become a god damned innovator for once, think of something new. Guild Wars hasn't gone to shite, it's aged beautifully, it's players have gone to shite, I remember the days in which a nerf meant thinking of a new way to do it, not crying, and hell, sometimes we even came up with new ways of doing it even before t'was nerfed. Learn from your predecessors.

Funk ee Monk ee

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Legendary Adventurers Guild [LAG]

11 Nov 2009 at 20:44 - 82

Best post regarding UWSC I've ever seen Joe Fierce. Kudos!

Joe Fierce

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11 Nov 2009 at 20:49 - 83

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funk ee Monk ee

Best post regarding UWSC I've ever seen Joe Fierce. Kudos!

There's a reason I've been around so long and have such a low post count my friend, it's this crazy little thing I like to call thinking before posting.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

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12 Nov 2009 at 01:29 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sora of the Divine

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

You're missing the point. Godmode simply should not exist. And if it does, it certainly should not be limited to one class. It should either be equally available to everyone (and before people mention Ursan; it did not do this; in fact it did the opposite, since ranger and warrior ursans were better than other ursans in every single way), or be available to no one.

Crippie its Tom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

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12 Nov 2009 at 02:55 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

WHAAAAA SF NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!

WHAAAAA SF GOT NERFED FOR UW!!

This is all I see. Stop crying. I like what I've seen with the "new" six hundred build that's currently emerging, but it's currently kindof off, it needs some work.

Quit trying to simulate izzy's job by saying this or that should or shouldn't be nerfed, punt the box over to the other side of the room, come up with something new, and become a god damned innovator for once, think of something new. Guild Wars hasn't gone to shite, it's aged beautifully, it's players have gone to shite, I remember the days in which a nerf meant thinking of a new way to do it, not crying, and hell, sometimes we even came up with new ways of doing it even before t'was nerfed. Learn from your predecessors.

If that was at my original article, then read it please. If it was at the 6ish pages of QQ, then I generally agree with you.

Joe Fierce

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12 Nov 2009 at 03:03 - 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crippie its Tom

If that was at my original article, then read it please. If it was at the 6ish pages of QQ, then I generally agree with you.

Yessir. Indeed.

Caligo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

Missouri, USA (GMT -6)

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12 Nov 2009 at 03:06 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You're missing the point. Godmode simply should not exist. And if it does, it certainly should not be limited to one class. It should either be equally available to everyone (and before people mention Ursan; it did not do this; in fact it did the opposite, since ranger and warrior ursans were better than other ursans in every single way), or be available to no one.

Hmmm... I seem to remember that after the initial buff (with the pve/vp split) that any class could maintain sf. Even when it was 'balanced' again to shorten the duration, it was still possible to maintain on an x/A, provided you had the +1 attributes from grail and a misc personal consumable. It's still possible now with even more personal cons, but it's to the point that if you get the least bit of lag, you're a goner. Either way, if they were to restore it to not being 'limited to one class', it would still be more Q.Q and 'unfair'.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

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12 Nov 2009 at 03:15 - 88

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that godmode is okay for everyone. I'm saying that what's even worse than the existence of godmode is for only one class to have it, because then it's both hideously broken and unfair, instead of just hideously broken.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

12 Nov 2009 at 03:25 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

This is all I see. Stop crying. I like what I've seen with the "new" six hundred build that's currently emerging, but it's currently kindof off, it needs some work.

Quit trying to simulate izzy's job by saying this or that should or shouldn't be nerfed, punt the box over to the other side of the room, come up with something new, and become a god damned innovator for once, think of something new. Guild Wars hasn't gone to shite, it's aged beautifully, it's players have gone to shite, I remember the days in which a nerf meant thinking of a new way to do it, not crying, and hell, sometimes we even came up with new ways of doing it even before t'was nerfed. Learn from your predecessors.

There is something called balance. If a game is not balanced, the people have a right to complain or else they will leave. "Coming up with something new" does not cut it when in PvE something is clearly superior and there is no reason to play anything else and in PvP you have no choice but play a certain build or you get rolled.

Joe Fierce

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12 Nov 2009 at 03:27 - 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is something called balance. If a game is not balanced, the people have a right to complain or else they will leave. "Coming up with something new" does not cut it when in PvE something is clearly superior and there is no reason to play anything else and in PvP you have no choice but play a certain build or you get rolled.

Guildwars is one of the most balanced MMOs I've ever seen, yet people complain about the balance of it more than any other MMO I've seen.

That's when you make a better build, afterall is that not what pvp is about when coupled with tactics?

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

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12 Nov 2009 at 04:01 - 91

To be fair, better builds don't always exist.

And I hope GW is not one of the most balanced. With classes stepping on each other's toes right and left and godmode available, I shudder to think about what other MMOs' balance must be like.

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Nov 2009 at 04:04 - 92

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

12 Nov 2009 at 04:05 - 93

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

Guildwars is one of the most balanced MMOs I've ever seen, yet people complain about the balance of it more than any other MMO I've seen.

I disagree. But either way we aren't talking about balanced MMOs, we are talking about balanced games in general. Guild Wars had potential that it never met due simply to balance issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

That's when you make a better build, afterall is that not what pvp is about when coupled with tactics?

Of course, but when there is a skill or build that:

a. Dominates the metagame
b. Makes the game simply unfun

Then the company has to do something about it. If it comes down a battle of "play that build or bring a counter to that build" then the company has to do something about it.

In the case of PvP, this has been happening since Nightfall. In the case of UWSC, it dominates anything else being played there and dominates assassins. It also makes the game unfun for everybody else who realizes that there are people with an invincible skill who are more efficient than just about anything else they can come up with.

X Dr Pepper X

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2008

The Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

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12 Nov 2009 at 04:09 - 94

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWind View Post
There is something called balance. If a game is not balanced, the people have a right to complain or else they will leave. "Coming up with something new" does not cut it when in PvE something is clearly superior and there is no reason to play anything else and in PvP you have no choice but play a certain build or you get rolled.
Guildwars is one of the most balanced MMOs I've ever seen, yet people complain about the balance of it more than any other MMO I've seen.

That's when you make a better build, afterall is that not what pvp is about when coupled with tactics?

This thread is not about pvp. This thread is about ANet's extremely slow half assed progress to nerf SF. And pvp is not ruled by any one gimmick build but rather a consistency in teamwork and individual skill where balanced builds can beat any gimmick. Mind blast ele is better than a Melshot ranger for midline dmg support now, but a good player can overcome obstacles as well as a great team.

Also complain away. Its human nature to complain and to try and change things for the better. Dont let some arrogant guy troll you and hide behind his keyboard and attempt to silence you.

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

12 Nov 2009 at 08:57 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

Guildwars is one of the most balanced MMOs I've ever seen, yet people complain about the balance of it more than any other MMO I've seen.

That's when you make a better build, afterall is that not what pvp is about when coupled with tactics?

Yes, because everyone knows that there are have never been overpowered gimmick builds in PvP.

Joe Fierce

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12 Nov 2009 at 23:46 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Yes, because everyone knows that there are have never been overpowered gimmick builds in PvP.

Yes, because everyone knows this thread is about PvP in the first place.

But, I don't feel like a prick and not responding to you in a more intelligent way, so I'm not going to simply leave it at that, I'll go on to say "Balanced will beat gimmick. And honestly, if you're the first person doing something overpowered, it's not a gimmick to you, you're just running a overpowered build you found, now get out there and find the next overpowered thing, that's what the point of the game is"

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Nov 2009 at 01:51 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

Yes, because everyone knows this thread is about PvP in the first place.

And honestly, if you're the first person doing something overpowered, it's not a gimmick to you, you're just running a overpowered build you found, now get out there and find the next overpowered thing, that's what the point of the game is"

Until you realize that everybody and their mother is running the same build because there is nothing better. This works in both PvE and PvP.

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

13 Nov 2009 at 02:07 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

b. Makes the game simply unfun

You can use any argument you want but for crying out loud DO NOT use the word fun or unfun. It's clearly subjective and a personal preference. The way you phrased it made it sound like you were passing it off as fact. Shadowform is NOT fun?? Good for you. Don't speak on my behalf please. (not that I said SF is fun but don't speak for me regardless)

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Nov 2009 at 02:09 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You can use any argument you want but for crying out loud DO NOT use the word fun or unfun. It's clearly subjective and a personal preference. The way you phrased it made it sound like you were passing it off as fact. Shadowform is NOT fun?? Good for you. Don't speak on my behalf please. (not that I said SF is fun but don't speak for me regardless)

Fine. Replace the word unfun with the word stale.

Joe Fierce

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13 Nov 2009 at 02:17 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Until you realize that everybody and their mother is running the same build because there is nothing better. This works in both PvE and PvP.

No, it's because people SETTLE, not that they "realize there is nothing better" my current main guild, we do balanced builds, that are generally faster and more reliable than the gimmicks for doa and such. So, lol.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

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13 Nov 2009 at 02:19 - 101

PvE in GW has degenerated into a farmfest. I know this is the way some people like it. People like getting run though every HM dungeon payed for with their ebayed gold. But there was a time when a single person could not step foot outside of an outpost without being obliterated in 30 seconds. That was the GW I loved where you were forced to party for your survival and fight your way though the game. That is the GW that has developed some of the best gamers anywhere. We saved the world four times in a very challenging and hostile environment and it wasn't easy but it was fun and it was satisfying. So if people cry about that being taken away so be it let the crying commence. GW was never a sandbox to do your own thing, it was a warbox to step up or get stepped on from the very beginning. Invincibility has no place in this game.

byteme!

Forge Runner

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On Earth

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13 Nov 2009 at 02:20 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

No, it's because people SETTLE, not that they "realize there is nothing better" my current main guild, we do balanced builds, that are generally faster and more reliable than the gimmicks for doa and such. So, lol.

Now there's some facts for ya. People are lazy and as a result that's what happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

PvE in GW has degenerated into a farmfest.

After over 4 years of GW's existence and no new content on the way. I'm friggin glad it's turned into a farmfest. Otherwise there's absolutely nothing left to do for veteran players. New players you won't have to worry about. They'll find things to do no problem.

Joe Fierce

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13 Nov 2009 at 02:51 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

PvE in GW has degenerated into a farmfest. I know this is the way some people like it. People like getting run though every HM dungeon payed for with their ebayed gold. But there was a time when a single person could not step foot outside of an outpost without being obliterated in 30 seconds. That was the GW I loved where you were forced to party for your survival and fight your way though the game. That is the GW that has developed some of the best gamers anywhere. We saved the world four times in a very challenging and hostile environment and it wasn't easy but it was fun and it was satisfying. So if people cry about that being taken away so be it let the crying commence. GW was never a sandbox to do your own thing, it was a warbox to step up or get stepped on from the very beginning. Invincibility has no place in this game.

Guild wars has ALWAYS been a sand box to do your own thing, from day one, yes, your "own thing" may not work so well at first, but that's what personal evolution in builds is for. It's even better when that "own thing" is something mutually held by your buddies and you turn it into a group thing, and just steam roll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Now there's some facts for ya. People are lazy and as a result that's what happens.

That is the problem with the entire world.

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

13 Nov 2009 at 02:53 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe fierce

guild wars has always been a sand box to do your own thing

100% agreed.........

Another undeniable fact. Why else do we have our own instance to play in?

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Nov 2009 at 03:57 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

No, it's because people SETTLE, not that they "realize there is nothing better" my current main guild, we do balanced builds, that are generally faster and more reliable than the gimmicks for doa and such. So, lol.

Then you either aren't playing the right gimmick or you aren't playing it correctly. Gimmicks have always been faster farm builds than balanced. Its just a fact of inbalance in this game. Nerfing SF won't balance the game, but it is a step in the right direction.

Joe Fierce

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13 Nov 2009 at 04:17 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Then you either aren't playing the right gimmick or you aren't playing it correctly. Gimmicks have always been faster farm builds than balanced. Its just a fact of inbalance in this game. Nerfing SF won't balance the game, but it is a step in the right direction.

/Facepalm is the only thing I can do without ripping you a new one, unfortunately that happens to be the rules around these parts.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Nov 2009 at 05:10 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

/Facepalm is the only thing I can do without ripping you a new one, unfortunately that happens to be the rules around these parts.

Get back to me when you have a counter to my claim. (Hint: There is no counter. It is a fact.)

Joe Fierce

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13 Nov 2009 at 05:26 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Get back to me when you have a counter to my claim. (Hint: There is no counter. It is a fact.)

Every "gimmick" starts out simply as a successful build first, it's catching on that turns it into a "gimmick" so, even a balanced build, if it catches on can become considered a "gimmick", it's not that I had no counter to your claim, it's that you didn't realize that, and I'm not quite feeling like an educator this evening.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

13 Nov 2009 at 06:27 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

Every "gimmick" starts out simply as a successful build first, it's catching on that turns it into a "gimmick" so, even a balanced build, if it catches on can become considered a "gimmick", it's not that I had no counter to your claim, it's that you didn't realize that, and I'm not quite feeling like an educator this evening.

Then by your logic, gimmick builds will be the best farming builds. When one build dominates and things get stale, its time for a change no?

toocooltang

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13 Nov 2009 at 07:13 - 110

A gimmick build is one that counts on 1 or 2 skills for the build to work. For UWSC, FOWSC and most dungeonSCs that is shadowform. Thus all these builds fall into gimmicks.

Spiritz

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

DMFC

13 Nov 2009 at 13:15 - 111

I cant believe how most of the gw players are re-acting to the change in uw.
Many have cried for ages that uw is too easy and possibly a few uwsc teams get a bit bored of doing it so easily.
Anet makes a few changes and now its like a cryfest coz ppl are finding it too hard.

Changes are good - what anet changes forces builds and play styles to evolve and players learn new tactics.
If you wanted an easy game im sure anet would have made gw with 2 professions and 8 skills an left you to it.
Learn , Adapt and Evolve ppl and get on with it.
Also for pugs - considering the amount of crying going on its a wonder players are not trying to form pugs ( or teach players ) and pooling ideas on what may or may not work.
Forget saying about sf etc - thats bad players looking for a scapegoat , i have a perma sin and yet the sin hasnt once gone into uw in sc team and she never will.When i did uw it was for fun with a guild team rather than serious farming or being able to boast " we did uw in xx mins " - that doesnt interest us.
My sin usually fights without sf and sf is only used now for slight farming or being nice and giving guildies the odd run to places.
Not every perma sin does uw - does every monk in gw use only a healer monk build ?
If your so upset with sf dont use it or join a team with a a/me or a/e sin - or suggest to anet to add into uw enviroment effects that would affect sf or other skills that you all like to cry about - simple isnt it.

Tastyy

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

13 Nov 2009 at 13:26 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

If your so upset with sf dont use it or join a team with a a/me or a/e - simple isnt it.

Average-joes answer to everything.

Some change gets made, wheather its in a game, country or some website, people will always just "go" with it and say, "we can't do it anything, if you don't like it, stop playing x" (x being probably SF).

Very annoying. Can people stop using this?

Crippie its Tom

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

Canada!

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13 Nov 2009 at 13:27 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

If you wanted an easy game im sure anet would have made gw with 2 professions and 8 skills an left you to it.

that would actually be the hardest game D=

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Nov 2009 at 15:59 - 114

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

now get out there and find the next overpowered thing, that's what the point of the game is"

Um... No. The point of the game is not to find flaws in the system, no matter how fun it is to do that, but to construct powerful but not overpowered builds and then use them in a skillful manner. Also, construction and execution can't be equal in difficulty, therefore they should not be equal in importance; how you play your build should mean more than what build it is (naturally, there should be bad builds, what I mean is that taking a good build should not mean that there is a 99% chance of success as long as you can perform extremely simple control inputs).

That unfortunately means that when a build like the perma sin appears, that builds needs to be squashed.

Fleeting

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Mo/

13 Nov 2009 at 16:12 - 115

There's no need to screw Ob Flesh / Spell Breaker just because Permasins are suddenly having a hard time pressing 123 and getting free loot. Shadow Form is so much more powerful than both other elites that it's almost funny.

Spiritz

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

DMFC

13 Nov 2009 at 16:19 - 116

Tastyy - the logical solution meaning if you dislike something then dont use/have it - anet doesnt force players to use sf.Im not forced to use sf and neither is any guildie in my alliance.We all are free to use whatever chr/profession we choose within gw - its free will.
Sometimes the average joe see`s things in a diff light and more obviously

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

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13 Nov 2009 at 16:50 - 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleeting

There's no need to screw Ob Flesh / Spell Breaker just because Permasins are suddenly having a hard time pressing 123 and getting free loot. Shadow Form is so much more powerful than both other elites that it's almost funny.

Especially since you can't solo many things just with Spell Breaker or OF. You can solo a lot of UW with just SF...

qvtkc

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

13 Nov 2009 at 17:19 - 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

Tastyy - the logical solution meaning if you dislike something then dont use/have it - anet doesnt force players to use sf.Im not forced to use sf and neither is any guildie in my alliance.We all are free to use whatever chr/profession we choose within gw - its free will.
Sometimes the average joe see`s things in a diff light and more obviously

Yes and the obvious retort is that why would anyone cut his own legs off?

The Blood Countess

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2009

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13 Nov 2009 at 17:41 - 119

All the good UWSC's were bored with how easy Underworld was for them anyways... and every one knows the q9 E blade always drops for the noob who spent the whole time eating dirt.

The fact is.... and we all know this... people will always find a way to farm... always. they can nerf and nerf all they want. people will always hate farmers and farmers will keep farming.

At least now the stacks and stacks of ecto all the uwsc's had are worth more. And shards will be worth 100g each in no time.

persuadu

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

DTH

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13 Nov 2009 at 18:00 - 120

Shadow Form seems to be the new Ursan Blessing, except that only sins can use it. If Anet wanted to make things "fair" (if there even should be such a thing as fair) they need to do one of 3 things:

1) Nerf the crap out of shadow form so you cannot permaform.
2) Buff shadow form so any class can run permaform.
3) Bring back the old school ursan so other classes can have a simmilar advantage as the sin.

The last 2 would bring a lot of gameplay back for DoA and UWSC. Not everyone will be happy, but a lot more would be.

It's Ironic that they killed Ursan because everyone complained that they had to be r8+ norn to get into UWSC teams. They felt it was forcing people to grind the norn title. Now you have to make a sin, level up, buy armors, get the proper weapon sets, still get all these EOTN skills and get them to the appropriate ranks so you can do UWSC. But hey, there not going to mess with that.

I wonder if there are some UWSC'ers on the ANET staff protecting this skill.