Ideas to improve Fort Aspenwood

Errr...

I'm all for originality, but... what?
"We all know that Gunther is creating a godly weapon... and to do this he needs a certain amount of time. That's completly wrong - what he should need is Amber."

That's like saying, a car mechanic fixing an engine doesn't need time to fix it. He needs motor oil!

Doesn't make sense, does it?

He needs time to work. Amber assists him, but it isn't absolutely vital. The weapon isn't made of amber.

"If the Kurzicks own all 3 amber mines the progression of building that weapon should be triple speed, if they own 2 mines double speed, 1 mine single speed - no mine at all = no progression!"

We already have a PvP format for this: It's called Jade Quarry. If I want to do nothing but battle over mines, I'll go play that. I play FA because it's NOT JQ. Thanks.


"Instead of hiding behind gates keeping one single NPC alive they would actualy have to go out and do something to win..."

Because an attack/defend format is too hard to understand? The Kurzicks are defending, the Luxons are attacking. The Kurzicks are supposed to bunker down and and weather the storm, where as the Luxons are that storm. If both sides are attacking... we go right back to.. what was it? Oh yeah, Jade Quarry.

"I also would introduce some sort of (Victory or Death) mechanics , by opening every gates when the weapon creation hits 90%."

Okay. You're sitting in your back room working on your computer. Massive virus, everything is getting de-bunked. You almost get it fixed and your door suddenly falls over.

What? Why would the gates suddenly open? Would you open your doors to a bunch of bandits pillaging a town? There's no reason for the doors to spontaneously drop other than, "Ohay. we're almost done. try to kill us! "

Besides, people would just camp the doors and wait the timer out. Why bother doing anything when we can stand here with our high damage and wait for green to go down? All flood in at once, right? Easy peasy. Especially if they don't have a monk. Not to mention, only Eles, Warriors, Dervishes and Assassins on the luxon team. So much for variety. All the damage dealers would be there.

This is an attack/defend format. It's the nature of the beast that there would be stalemates, and unfortunately there's no way to balance that out. The Kurzicks are defending, so it makes sense that time would be on their side. It sucks to be a luxon and be on the losing end of a stalemate, but, it happens. Luxons get in quicker than Kurzicks anyway. Not like they're missing out, right?

Your suggestions sound like you want an entirely different PvP style. Jade Quarry. You like capping mines and making people haul it for the benefit of their team. Go play that. FA is meant to be different than JQ, and that's why I and a lot of people like it. It's not a mindless cap-fest. That isn't fun.


TL;DR Version:

FA doesn't need to turn into JQ.
--

Edit: You wouldn't even need a bad monk. A bad Mesmer can deter a monk long enough to allow somebody else to play with the gates. I've seen eles do it, too. Holding a gate doesn't require a massive amount of skill. Most of the time, the monks just roll their faces on the keyboard and viola: A gate is held. Turtle spikes suck, but it's not too difficult. Like I said, a Mesmer or an Ele who are half paying attention can hurt the monk long enough to heal himself, or retreat far enough to not be able to get to the NPC in time.

Did you ever watch the Kurzick introduction cinematics... what is said there should be the mission objectives for the Kurzicks... "give Gunther amber" to build his weapon.. too bad the way it is now it's just a game about defending the base ... no real challenge if you have just 2 decent (healer/protector/weapon spell caster)...
It doesn't take much for Kurzicks to be organized if you have 8 ppl figthing outside green gate, and geting respawned just inside green gate when they die , while Luxon's get respawnd so fare away from it that it makes it impossible for all 8 Luxon's to be together at any moment of the game.


We are also talking about a game , with fictive objectives , not about a guy repairing a car ... a-net set's the objectives and they can define whatever they want as a standart, games are not ruled by the laws of physics.

A lot of the current mesmers (on the Luxons side) are damage mesmers. Damage and indirect damage (degeneration). You either need two such mesmers, which isnt happening in most cases, or a monk with a decent build which is able to almost totally mitigate incoming damage enough to heal on time. Its amazingly easy.

E damage is so easily mitigated or avoided. Me damage is easily negated as well. The degeneration can be healed as well, but not max degeneration on two targets. However, most damage Mes pick Illusion of Pain, which can't be distributed among several targets without being highly ineffective against such a monk.

What have you got left? Many classes are rendered quite useless when the Mo is hiding behind the wall. Even if the A has a shadowstep (which doesnt exist in each and every good build), his damage is very easily mitigated as well. His CC (Except Daze, which is kind of rare and doesnt last long in most cases) isnt that helpful against a protection Mo who can mitigate a lot of damage even when he's on the ground.


There. That was the moment you hit the spot. Its a fact you cant ignore, and therefore that Mo's influence is way off the scale compared to him being just an individual (and doesnt have to be more than decent). Add the easy (and frequent) way in which the Amber is able to fix the gate, and what do you get? One person who has a major influence, all by himself, and not because of his skill. Did I also mention the fact that him being behind the wall pretty much cancels many classes(/professions)?

@ Prinzess of Life
You're right, but I have one thing to say: Some changes, like my suggestions, could be easily implements and could solve the issues at hand.

Let the Kurzick have the advantage through their NPC's presence (except the time it prevents a whole side from getting inside for a very long time, and so easily). Let the Kurzicks have the advantage through the ease in which they defend the last NPC, by having the perches, by fixing the gates, and with their easy map travel through the portals.

Dont let the Kurzicks win because one person can easily hold a turtle for such a long time and so easily. Dont like the Kurzicks win because one person can easily hold the gate (by keeping the NPC alive) behind a wall for such a long time and so easily.

Mesmers target spellcasters, not solely monks. A mesmer can't strip weapon spells but we can still pretty much destroy a ritualist.

Don't forget that the game is supposed to be a team game. (I say supposed to be but really, when have you seen the warriors and assassins work as a team?) If a team works together, it really will come down to skill. If the entire team starts fighting in 1v1 scenarios, well it's no wonder Kurzicks always win. What really needs fixing is people. As far as I'm concerned, this is just another case of "If you can't beat it, nerf it."

Far from it. You're not even near. I dont care about losing that much at all. I care about losing when it had little to do with skill. When someone, by himself, has a great impact on the battle's outcome just because of the map's design, I have a problem with it. In my opinion, my simple suggestions will be able to solve that problem.

By the way, this PvP format is clearly made for casuals, as opposed to (for example) GvG tournaments. This PvP challenge should be balance with that fact in mind. I refer to both sides. I expect to lose more than win, when it comes to Fort Aspenwood. Its because the kurzicks are supposed to have an advantage (like any one of those I mentioned in one of my last posts). I want someone to be able to have a serious impact because he was skilled, and only for that reason.

Edit:

After thinking for a while, I've been asking myself: Why shouldnt there be a premade mode (a different outpost) for Fort Aspenwood? It could either be 6vs6 premade, 2 teams of 4 (8vs8) premade, or one team of eight premade (8vs8).

Wouldnt that be interesting (and quite easy to implement too, I believe)? I mean, AB is the only casual PvP battle that allows premade groups. The AB, however, is very different in its nature, and is a lot more like "Cap Wars Online" (more or less, of course). Fort Aspenwood is a lot more about fighting, and I think its great.

this.
if it was lore-wise possible, changing roles would be the only good idea here.

FA is still possible to win as a luxon, been there six times on luxon side and won five matches, got owned by luxons several times lately as well. it's all about the builds, personal experience and teamplay, really.

And, very often, about using map design flaws to your advantage, like preventing the turtle from moving all by yourself (and very easily too). That's the reason I made my suggestions.

Being a Mesmer primary, I won't go into the tiny nitpickity details of how backfire should always be on a mesmer's bar in FA. Diversion works wonderfully, too. I've powerblocked many-a-gateholding monks. I go in on my mesmer expecting this sort of behavior.

Generally, two monks do not hold a gate together. It's a waste of energy and a waste of time. 90% of the time, one monk holds one gate.

A mesmer who takes degen isn't "damage". A mesmer who is relying that as their sole source of damage are.. well, silly. Like you said. Degen can easily be outhealed and removed. Those mesmers make me lol and they are no threat at all.

Diversion, Backfire, Shame, all these things can easily deter a monk from healing a gate NPC.

The goal of a mesmer/ele/necro/whatever isn't to necessarily kill the holding monk. You just want him to get low enough to where he take the time to heal himself, or retreats far enough from the attack to not be in range to heal the NPC. Like I said, usually (And I mean usually. I have seen otherwise), there is not another healer around to heal that monk. That fraction of a second will give your team time to bring down this gate. One ele shouldn't be much opposition to a turtle, four warriors, a mesmer/ele/necro/whatever and whatever else happens to be on it.

What it comes down to:

If you can see the healer in your aggro bubble when you're against the gate, that means you can hit him, and he can heal the NPC.

The second you see him move out of that range, you've done your job. He can't heal, you can't hit him, and the NPC is vulnerable.

TL;DR Version:

Degen mesmers are not damage mesmers. Illusion of pain won't kill it's intended target due to the heal at the end (Unless there are other factors.)

You do not take degen to deter a gate monk. You do not take energy denial to deter a gate monk (For the case of necro/rits). You take skill denial.

Backfire. Arcane Thievery/Larceny, Diversion, Shame. You take Signet of Humility, disable their elite, and they're generally done.

Builds like these can be useful as general caster hate, so they're multipurpose.

Not everyone's style, but it works, and you can't argue with what works.

@ Hyperventilate

General

Illusion of Pain doesnt heal its target if you renew it before it ends. Please check the facts first.


Degeneration (and/or damage) Mesmers

You're very very very wrong about the degeneration Me. Some weeks ago I was giving that kind of Me a go, and the results were amazingly surprising. I virtually stopped the Amber running and killed so many I lost count. I did that many times, during many battles, and I have way more than enough experience to tell you that you're wrong.

You should be smart and know where to place yourself. Near the shrines they almost never have a monk, and solo monks even die sometimes, not to mention the fact that most monks dont do Amber runs very often at all.

Degeneration mesmers often include some kind of snare and energy management. They need Inspirations, Illusions and Fast Casting is very helpful here too. That said, how will they have a decent attribute in Dominations to get Diversion and/or backfire?

Backfire's damage can easily be mitigated and that's one of the last hexes I'm afraid of, as a monk. Its not because of any skill on my part. Its just because monks who mitigate damage well can easily ignore Backfire. Its about the build, and builds are usually shared or published, so there's no problem there.


Skill Denial Mesmers

Power Block can also be gamble AND its a rare skill to be taken by a Me at Fort Aspenwood (lets not forget this map is made for casuals, mostly). Furthermore, for it to be a little less of a gamble you need to be skilled and/or seriously slow the Mo's spells (which is also uncommon). Slowing spells means an additional attribute, and could be a problem.

Its true that a monk needs to have above avarage skill to know how to fool such a Me (Power Block), but even then the monk gets way more influence than he should (compared to his skill level and the fact that he's almost always trying to help the NPC alone).

The avarage combination of Shame+Diversion+Backfire is usually taken by anti monk mesmers. Those are very rare on the Luxons side. Very rare indeed. We can argue and blame the players for prefering other classes/roles, but will it really help or change anything? No, it wont.

Monks might be an exception, but if you kill rather than disable (/deny), you're usually getting better results at Fort Aspenwood. There usually isnt a Mo to personally take care of you as a Me on the Luxons side. There's a healing and/or protection monk quite often, and he wont help you many times for various reasons.

Skill denial attracts a lot of attention (hate, mostly) and you'll die very often if you try to help where there's the major battle (inside the fortress or in the final room). Since you dont always (more often not) have the res points near the fortress, you'll res quite far and miss quite a lot of action. This surely is one of the reasons this kind of build isnt popular.


Monk/s who keep/s the gate NPC alive

Two monks helping each other usually happened when one couldnt do his job alone, and he came with a friend (sync, and it happens). This doesnt happen very often, but even then those two people have an impact that's way way too serious for them being two. Most of that impact originates (again) from the map's design mostly. Its not because one (or both) was skilled. You can see that when the monks dont have a wall to hide behind, or when it doesnt depend on the survival of one player/NPC alone.

The goal of the Me (degeneration or damage), E, N (damage or degeneration) etc. is to try to deal enough damage for the monk to be concentrating on himself mostly. What you keep forgetting is that you dont need more than a decent monk to mitigate and heal that damage on two targets at the same time. If you use max degeneration on both targets, that becomes very hard, but then you need two good degenerators at the same team AND the same gate. Its not that common, and you know it as well as I do.

You havent played a Protections monk (or one that isnt built properly for that task) at Fort Aspenwood if you think that him moving a little out of your range for a few moments equals to a vulnerable NPC. If the team was coordinated and could strip+spike fast, you could be right. However, this is Fort Aspenwood we're talking about here. You might as well have totally useless (for that specific goal) people on your side. Very often. And uncoordinated, 99% of the time.

The best way to keep a gate NPC alive is Protections (above all), and many monks know that when they decide to seriously take that role (keeping the gate NPC alive). That said, Protection builds are usually mitigating damage well, but not mitigating degeneration all that well (some more, some less). Generally, when two targets are being heavily degenerated, such a monk will have to give up on one target.

Skill denial was already discussed, and it boiled down to: Skill denial is very rare on the Luxon side, and its a fact. Blame the people for their skill and preferences if you like, its not getting us anywhere. This is a casual PvP battle, and should be treated as such.

I've bitched about an active goal for the Kurzick in Riverside threads also. While this is taking a step in the right way, it still doesn't do enough.
The problem with just holding the mines is that you can still cap the mine with just one person. Which means you can have up to 3 guys running around outside of the Fort taking back the mines, while the rest of the guys hides behind the gates. And if the Kurzick have the mines, that means that the Luxon spawn even further away from the Fort and are first forced to cap the mines back or have patrols outside of the caste - reducing the size of the incoming army.
And when the incoming army is smaller - that just means that the Kurzick monk behind the gates will have an easier way of keeping the gate up.

Pretty much the best active solution that I could come up with was the need to bring in amber (the solution that would require the least changes to the map) because that forces the Kurzick to open the gates, allowing the Luxon to get in.
And I posted this here:


From these threads:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10376269
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10337304

On the subject of shutdown-mesmers as the solution to the issue:
You won't be able to keep the monks shutdown for longer times. Which basically means that what you are asking for is a random team pulling off a spike by using team chat to time it.
Don't get me wrong - harassing the monks will do wonders. But the problem is unless the Luxon team is much better than the Kurzick, there is still a chance that they won't win. You'll have cases where the Luxon team WILL be better than the Kurzick, yet the Kurzick will still win. Just because the map plays such a big role.

@ upier

I'll start with something I already said before:
Other than the above, you didnt mention one important fact: The Kurzicks are still able to hold the turtle in one place very easily and for a long time. They can do so because of the Turtle's AI (which is a part of the map's design) and not because of anything that's related to skill. Lets not even mention the fact that one person can do that alone (and very easily, like I said).

Let not forget, by the way, the fact that the Kurzicks have quite the easy time protecting the Fortress because of various reasons. I find most of them acceptable (those which arent acceptable, in my opinion, were discussed in this thread). For that reason I believe your suggestion, of forcing them out to the mines NEAR the Fortress, are a good idea. This will also incite many more encounters.

- The spawned Turtle should really start moving by itself. That's a very good suggestion, and I highly doubt its hard to implement.

- Full monk teams can be prevented if there's a cap to each class (/profession) in every team. For example, no more than two monks per team.

- I still believe there should be a way for the Luxons to gain points and the fight to be capped at 15 minutes. Another option is to cap the battle at 15 minutes, and if the Kurzicks fail to bring the Amber by then, its a draw. I see no problem with that happening. I believe it'll create a battle that's centered around the mines. I see no problem with it, although I'd prefer it to be an all out 8vs8 fight between the two sides (at least some of the battle). That's what I prefer.



Last words (For this post)
You really hit the spot there.

I feel that the introduction of the draw mechanic based on an active Kurzick goal, as I have noted in my previous post, would fix a lot of issues.
For instance, 8 monk team wouldn't be able to take mines, which means they can't bring in amber, which means that the best they can hope for is a draw. Which means to win, the Kurzick need to rely on luck to get a mix of defence and offence, the same way that the Luxon currently need to rely on that same luck.

The problem here is that the Kurzick teams that can't actively win, win because the timer reaches 0.

You're right about the draw, and therefore I have a better suggestion (in my opinion):

Another suggestion crossed my mind, although this one isnt that easy to implement:

To force the Kurzicks out of the wall, to some extent, and then create a battle inside the fortress. How will I do that? The battle will have the winning condition of killing Gunther and the Kurzicks will have have to buy Gunther enough time, but in a different way than its now. According to this suggestion, the battle should still last 15 minutes maximum.

- Gunther will start creating the weapon only after a said amount of Amber is supplied. He'll need a shorter time than now, to compensate for the lost time (to get the Amber), though. Any surplus Amber could be gathered to Fix the gates (although some of it could be gathered to fix the gate anyway). The amount of Amber required for Gunthar's weapon. should be balanced, and I know its not an easy task.

- If the Kurzicks dont collect enough Amber by the time that's been allocated for that, its going to be a draw. For example, the Kurzicks will have 7 minutes to gather enough Amber for Gunther, because he needs 8 minutes to get the weapon done (which means the battle lasts 15 minutes maximum).

- Luxons win only if the kill Gunthar. Make it extremely hard for Luxons to gank Gunther


This battle design forces the players to fight, and the Kurzicks will have to fight outside their walls at least some of the time.

For this idea to work, the following issues must be addressed:

- The Siege Turtle's AI will have to be changed according to my suggestion

- The "monk/s holding the gate for too long" issue will also have to be fixed, using my suggestion or another.


What could be the reason to invest enough resources to change Fort Aspenwood? In my opinion, there are many casuals in the game who like battles that are different than the "Cap Wars Online" which are the Jade Quarry and the Alliance Battles. Furthermore, its possible to create another outpost where its possible to fight at Fort Aspenwood by gathering premade teams (2 teams of 4, one team of 6, or one team of 8).

Edit:

Besides, if its possible, you could always create another outpost in which my suggestions are implemented. That way you dont upset anyone because they still have the old format just the way it is. In my opinion its an easy way to check the new format's popularity.

Edit 2:

Some time after that second outpost is implemented, it would be quite clear which option is more popular

First fix is better players.
Is people stop bringing random builds, specially on Luxon, things will be fine.
The turtle blocking is annoying, could use fix. Or people should get rid of the person blocking. Not that hard with decent build, which brings me back to better players

Instead of expecting the players to change, you could create a format that is much more suitable for better players, like the premade outpost (in addition to the random team outpost) I suggested.

Other than that I agree with you.

Reminds me of the times when I was playing against Luxon that were CLEARLY better than us, but we still won.

ROJ much? They can definitely take shrines. Heck, I've seen W/Mos in FA with it.

Otherwise, I generally agree with you.

Although it is generally difficult to get accurate numbers on how fair a map is. Anybody posting on this thread is by far a better then average player. Which means whatever side you are going to play in will usually end up winning more just because you are so beneficial to your team.

We are dealing with a random format.
If you end up being the only monk on the team - do you really want to run RoJ?
Plus, keep in mind that because the Kurzick win when the timer reaches 0, there is no punishment for having additional defensive guys on your team.


The only reason why you do not see full-on defensive teams is because the Kurzick are really that bad.

I've always found it rather ironic that 99% of the time, a kurzick Mo/ will be packing RoJ and more often than not their luxon counterparts are running typical backliner bars.

There are way better ways of taking shrines. AoE is your thing? A Fire Elementalist will defenitely be more valuable to your side. I have yet to see even one RoJ monk who was seriously helping his team's defense.

y the way, I always like it when they were on the Kurzick side because I knew its, more or less, like one less person. I would either hunt them down and kill them VERY easily, or I would heal the NPCs they try to kill. It was laughable to see their attempt to harm me.

I disagree about the part in your post that refers to fairness. First of all, A-Net have clear statistics, which I know nothing of. Other than that, there are clear issues which can allow someone to have a very serious impact on the battle, and not because of his skill. It was discussed quite a lot at this thread by now (And I also made simple suggestions to fix it).

Amazingly right. Enough said.

Sad, but true.

Can't help but notice those (Luxons) who complain about FA because they can't win, keep repeating that Kurzicks have no skill. But if they suck so bad, why can't you win? Why do you need to rely on your uber OP turtles and the gank squad to actually be able to fight your way in? Are you sure it's not because Luxons keep running the same wammo builds and naruto sins? If Kurzicks are so bad as you guys claim, there should be no reason that your team can't get rid of 1 or even 2 monks in your way. And no, 8 monk teams are next to impossible. We're talking about a realistic situation here, not theory crafting. JQ is the perfect example of how one side dominates the other in a balanced map - I would like to think that Kurzicks must be doing something right to keep winning there.

And the AI can be easily manipulated on both sides. You can easily lure Gunther out of the green gate or body block the Jugg so that it won't move or attack. The gate guards don't run out of AoE's until they're 1 hit from dying. EoE is STILL the strongest and most OP thing to use on Lux side, even though almost no Luxon uses it except as a griever on the Kurzick team. For those reasons I don't understand why you guys are complaining. It's not hard to overwhelm the Kurzicks, you just need to have a little bit more coordination and teamwork (of course bringing the right builds helps immensely), because certainly I will give you one thing that the Kurz can easily ball up inside the fort, thus automatically giving them more coordination. Everything else can be countered.

There are good and bad players on both sides. The problem is that the Luxon are at a substantial disadvantage, which means that the Kurzick will inevitably win more.

It's the design of the map.

I disagree. I play both sides and I see way more shitter builds on luxon side. Like I said earlier simply taking a few ranger spirits screws over a large majority of bonding/prot builds.

There is almost no luxon that brings enchant removal, rend, rip, profane or otherwise, there are way too many omfgspikesins and warriors who think they can do good.

Luxons also rely on the turtle too much, so if it gets blocked people think it is game over, where the turtle is simply a luxury and isn't needed at all.

The design is a bit far fetched and needs to change the turtle AI, but I don't find luxon losing so much the maps fault as much as players.

I have to side with this.

The easiest way to fck over the Kurzicks is to bring EoE. Generally, they're more worried about the players to go out and find it (Especially if it's hidden behind the small outcrops on the outside of green), and it will rape Gunther.

Hell, most times you don't even need to bring it: Kurzick griefers bring it for you! An EoE in the area of Gunther, 99% of the time will end in his demise.

I can't agree with this more. As a Kurzick, I see that once we have both mines and lose ONE, the Luxons will -generally- ignore the second mind. That's an oversight on their part.

Being the occasional luxon, I see the teams rely -too much- on the turtles. Sure, they can really crank out the damage, but the luxons need to be aggressive. Don't just stand there and ride the turtle around.

When I see the Luxons fail, generally it's because their team isn't organized or cooperative with one another. It's rare that I have a really close battle with a good luxon team.

I've never once complained about the map from the Luxon side. It's supposed to give the Kurzicks an advantage: If you can't handle that, don't FA.

Everything you said is completely negated by this.

You cant think outside the box, can you? Furthermore, you really need to improve your reading comprehension. First of all, I said its not about winning, but about those two specific issues (turtle and gate NPC) more than anything else. On top of it, People said way way way too many times that BOTH sides usually have bad players because this is a casual format. By the looks of it I doubt you'll even understand it now, but at least I gave it another shot.

Kurzicks keep winning at the Jade Quarry? Not while I was playing there. Not so many times at all.

I have seen only one Fort Aspenwood battle in which Gunther was lured out, and I've been through way more battles than you can count. Furthermore, if its possible, I would suggest fixing that as well.

Juggernauts werent surviving for so long to actually make a major difference anyway. Furthermore, they have knockdown and the Body Block issue isnt only Fort Aspenwood's. Its also a problem at Heroes' Ascent (and not only there).

Why are we complaining? First of all, you have to comprehend what we're saying. You think its all about winning and about saying only Kurzicks are bad. The truth is that the majority of the Luxons in this thread have only agreed about the Turtle AI issue and the gate NPCs.

You can always blame the people for not bringing the best builds, but you keep forgetting its a casual format. You cant expect most people to behave in the most efficient way. You can expect most people to bring whatever they prefer, and this is exactly what's happening. If you want people to behave in a more efficient way, create a premade mode (in addition to the one there's now), and then you'll see different results.

Some of the advantages are acceptable, in my opinion. For example: Perches, Amber fixing the gates, res points extremely close to Gunther in the final battle, etc. The only problems I find really disturbing are the Turtle's AI, and the ease of keeping NPCs alive. Both have been discussed and I made suggestions to fix it.
With all due respect, the builds' issue (Kurzick vs Luxon) represents your experience only, while there have been numerous battles you werent in. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it sure is possible that it was just your experience.

Other than that, its a casual format and you should expect people to bring what they prefer over what's best for the team. That's a big part of being casual, to many people (facts speak for themselves). Furthermore, stripping alone isnt enough, because the players in the team are not well coordinated. How could we expect that from a random team of casuals?

@ Hyperventilate

You can see my comments (at this post, above) about casual players at this format, and being realistic about your expectations from them. Blame the casual players for behaving the way they do, when the map is designed for them. It'll get you nowhere.

I'll have to agree with upier about you negating everything you said with the above quote.

What disadvantage is that? I saw so many posts and I still do not get it (actually I see many people claiming disadvantage but never see any arguments). I play both sides equally and in my opinion it all depends on people in.

Or you simply didnt read the thread. Here's a part of one of my posts, from this thread (the most important part is in bold letters):

Shasgaliel, you can see the issues I refer to if you read my first post in this thread. You'll also see the (easy to implement) suggestions I made to fix the two issues.

While it's casual format, it's casual PvP. Meaning you encounter other human players who might have a better build than you have. Or play smarter. In both cases they should win.
This casual gameplay you talk about works on both sides.

This raises a question. Can one side gain advantage by having one or two good players on the team that is impossible to counter with one or two good players on the other side?
Or should we state that Kurz in general brings better builds/tactics, meaning they are more knowledgeable about what works and what doesn't?

because you have so much more experience than anyone else, right?

Today I once again went in with EoE.
I used to run it pretty much non-stop but then I suddenly stopped.
And today, after the great suggestion to bring it again, I did bring it only to be reminded WHY I stopped running it in the first place.
The teams that EoE works against, are the teams that pretty much anything works against.
When you are dealing with semi-competent teams - EoE will be down faster than it took you to put it down.


Yes.
That's the monk problem.
There is not a SINGLE Luxon bar that would be as effective as a heal/prot Kurzick monk.

The Luxon NEED to play as a team of players, while the Kurzick can play as a group of individuals.

Sure, gate healing/protting is effective. Else people would not not do this.
But if every match has at least two monks on Kurz side and (almost) no monk counters on Lux side I'd say we have a different problem. This ain't random play, it's people with some minor understanding fighting people with no understanding. Guess who wins.

As solution: how about an environmental effect that makes healing npc's that are not in party window harder the closer the human monk is to Guntar? On both sides. And move the turtles /juggers (not sure they are in) out of party window when the last gate is breached. This would support more offensive play on both sides I'd say.

ok, have a training area that will let the lux figure out their team before the match starts or just nerf the whole thing like Hero's ascent

The problem is fitting all the roles that need to be fulfilled onto one bar.
Because if you can't fit everything onto one bar - you NEED your team mates to fill in the missing roles.
And a Kurzick monk is able to fill ALL the needed roles. Single-handedly.

Now ask yourself, what do you need on the Luxon side and can that all fit onto one bar?
And that's the problem. As a Luxon you not only need your team-mates to play well (the same requirement that applies to the Kurzick - and that is the reason why nobody that understands the problem is discussing the skill of players!), they also need to bring complementary skills.
In a random arena.
Where the other side is not forced to do the same.

the only thing I agree with.
FA really isnt unbalanced the players are.
I have been in MANY games where the Luxons win and quickly because they brought a good build and could use it properly.
Its not the servers its the lack of players and has been stated so by Gaile.

Also, bad, or else this thread wouldn't be here.

@ upier

I completely agree with your last two posts.

If it was just about skill and what builds each side brings, I'd be very glad. It mostly is, by the way, which is why I'm happy about many aspects of this battle. My only two problems were the easy way the turtle can be delayed for a very long time, and the easy way a monk can hold the gate for too long, just because of the map's design.

Other than that, the Kurzicks have several advantages which I'm very happy about. Its not about winning, its about preventing the few cases in which the map's design causes serious problems to one side. Dont get me wrong, I support changes at the Kurzick side like preventing any possibility of the last NPC being lured out.

Your post was relevant if I said I know better than anyone else here (that only my experience counts), which I didnt. Therefore your post is irrelevant, and out of place.

If it was only about understanding what works, I'd agree, but its not. A main part of designing a casual format is the understanding that the people who do so will (almost in every case) bring whatever build/profession they prefer. For that reason you should prevent a case in which an individual has a very serious impact that has almost nothing to do with his own skill.

I believe my suggestion, regarding the Turtle and the monks (who keep gate NPCs alive), is much more simple to implement and suits the casual format in a much better way.

Or create an outpost with a premade mode, like I suggested some posts ago.

Its the lack of players indeed. There are people here who have played quite a lot and dont share the same experience. The only ones who really know who wins more are A-Net employees, which none of us are (am I wrong?).

As for your "arguement" regarding the map's balance, you should check out my comment to Apathetic Tom at the bottom of this post. If you want to be taken seriously, the least you should do is prove that you know what you're saying. Or do you expect someone to be foolish enough to just take your word for it, and you'll never have to explain anything (some at least some others provided well made arguements).

When you ignore well made arguements which prove there are issues, it doesnt make you right. An arguement consists of more than just "what Apathetic Tom thinks". An arguements consists of some kind of evidence, which you brought none and I (and others) did.

Here's an example for an arguement:

A single Ranger, with a very common and easy to play build, can delay the turtle for as long as he likes. The Turtle, which is quite squishy (try to protect him once and see), is supposed to be one of the Luxons' advantages when fighting at Fort Aspenwood. Therefore its an issue to be taken care of.

In case the turtle isnt dying as a result (which rarely happens), it can be delayed forever. The imbalance has nothing to do with skill, and if the Ranger doesnt die (which happens quite a lot, and he's on a perch, by the way) the Turtle will stay in one place. In case the Ranger dies (and takes a very short time to come back), he'll almost always be replaced by another who lasts at least enough time for the Ranger to come back.

(The arguement example ends here)

There's even a way to keep the turtle busy with no chance of being hurt, but hey, its not an issue because Apathetic Tom said this thread exists just because the Luxons casual players act as casual players (while playing a casual format of a PvP map). He must be right if he says so. He doesnt even have to explain anything, its Apathetic Tom, you know.

@pauli. see this is your problem along with many other luxons. You worry too much about the turtle instead of playing your build properly.
Most of the matches I have lost against the luxons are ones where turtles dont even come into play. Its because the PLAYERS know what theyre doing. Stop worrying so much about the turtles and play better.

Too bad you didnt ask, because I dont usually mind the turtle that much. Why is that? Because I know he can be delayed. You dont see my problem. You see what you want to see. If you actually wanted to know what I'm doing, you could simply ask. Empty assumptions get you nowhere.

The turtle was given to the Luxons so they'll be able to make some use of it if they know what they're doing. However, no matter what they know or do, one person can hold the turtle without getting hurt or by healing himself sufficiently (which many solo builds can).

I provided arguements proving there's an issue here that has to do with the map's design an not with player skill. You have provided no arguement of your own and havent refuted any of my arguements. How do you expect people to take your posts seriously?

Sorry if I didn't feel like reading long posts through the four pages (but I did get through one page), but I think it's a pretty nice idea for Kurz/Luxon roles in FA be switched. If it hasn't been said (which it probably has), I'll say it (again):

Naturally, the Kurzicks would control the fort and defend it, while the Luxons would try and break in and take it. If the Luxons take it, they (and others who have won their attacking matches) would be defending the fort while the Kurzicks who lost the fort (and others who have lost their defending matches) would be the attackers, and the circle goes on from there. Of course, this would require a bit of a revamp on the attacking Kurzicks' juggernauts, giving them the similar functionality of siege turtles, but the juggernauts would be holding bazookas that fire amber (or jade). Sorry if all this seems a little complicated.

About the attacking juggernauts: They would need something that allows them to break through Luxon defenses in the event that they (Luxon) hold the fort. My thoughts: a bazooka that fires a beam of light, which is basically a Ray of Judgment of 5 sec at 13 smiting prayers compressed into 1 sec that burns (10 sec) instead of removing enchantments, but ignores all defenses and hits foes in the area of impact as well as the trajectory of said beam. But the downside is that the juggernaut would have to be fed a decent amount of amber in order for it to shoot, otherwise it would have to resort to melee, which is Earth Shaker/Aftershock @ 13 earth magic. The same thing applies to attacking turtles, but their close-range defense would be Grasping Earth/Shockwave @ 13 earth magic.

The lore behind the whole thing:
The Luxons, needing a new source of power, one the Kurzicks could not defend against but had an abundance of, amber. This conclusion came when a surviving Luxon turtle operator in the aftermath of a large scale battle deep in the Echovald Forest was short on jade. The exhausted operator and turtle were quickly spotted, but the spotter retreated to alert other of their whereabouts. Desperate, the operator launched the turtle's last supply of jade and began looking for something, anything, to load the cannon with. A sparkle of golden light shone from above the petrified forest onto a shard of amber sticking out, grabbing the turtle operator's attention. With all the speed and strength he had, he grabbed his pickaxe, descended from the turtle, and he began to furiously swing at the shard. To his luck, he had hit a vein of amber. Several Luxons who had feigned death or hid heard the commotion, and decided to join in the action, eventually mining enough amber to stuff into the cannon several times over.

By the time the Kurzicks arrived, the few surviving Luxons made their last stand, boldly staring down three juggernauts and nine Kurzicks surrounding each of them. The final battle began, giving the turtle operator enough time to load the cannon and fire the freshly mined amber, hoping it would fire at all. It was a success, as the amber shattered the Kurzicks' magical defenses against jade, and instantly killed the juggernaut it was fired at, and killing and severely maiming those caught in the explosion. The second shot was fired, killing more than before and making the Kurzicks wonder what in Balthazar's name has penetrated their jade-resistant shield, until it dawned on one Kurzick commander after looking at one of the dead juggernauts with a large chunk of amber lodged into its head... they are using amber against us, he thought, and ordered his remaining forces to retreat, fearing the next shot of amber was going to kill him and more.

Only one Luxon soldier and the turtle operator remained alive during that last skirmish, and they went back the way they came to report their success and a new idea on how to make the job of killing juggernauts easier. During their return home to the Turtle Clan, they encountered stiff resistance primarily composing of forest wardens and the occasional oni ambush, and each were dispatched of using the more powerful amber as the new ammunition for the turtle cannon, and the combat skills of the Luxon soldier doing the main fighting. With some luck, the trio encountered a group of adventurers who were partaking on a activity called a "vanquish" who were more than willing to escort the Turtle Clan fighters to their respective home.

Shortly after returning home, the turtle operator quickly reported to Elder Rhea of both the progress through the Echovald Forest and the implementation of amber to attack the Kurzicks with, and what the amber did to the Kurzick juggernauts' defenses. Reluctantly, Elder Rhea considered the idea, and a week later, she had sent an armada of men, women, and turtles on a campaign to take Fort Aspenwood, knowing the resistance will be nothing short of stiff, and once the fort is taken, the Kurzicks will be sure to want it back, as the most valuable of amber is located there as well as in Urgoz's Warren, but the latter required heroes more powerful and experienced than what the Kurzicks had.

Sorry if my lore sucks. I'm hoping to be a lore writer for a respected company that will take me in one day, and I still have tons of improvement.