Ideas to improve Fort Aspenwood

Can't help but notice those (Luxons) who complain about FA because they can't win, keep repeating that Kurzicks have no skill. But if they suck so bad, why can't you win? Why do you need to rely on your uber OP turtles and the gank squad to actually be able to fight your way in? Are you sure it's not because Luxons keep running the same wammo builds and naruto sins? If Kurzicks are so bad as you guys claim, there should be no reason that your team can't get rid of 1 or even 2 monks in your way. And no, 8 monk teams are next to impossible. We're talking about a realistic situation here, not theory crafting. JQ is the perfect example of how one side dominates the other in a balanced map - I would like to think that Kurzicks must be doing something right to keep winning there.

And the AI can be easily manipulated on both sides. You can easily lure Gunther out of the green gate or body block the Jugg so that it won't move or attack. The gate guards don't run out of AoE's until they're 1 hit from dying. EoE is STILL the strongest and most OP thing to use on Lux side, even though almost no Luxon uses it except as a griever on the Kurzick team. For those reasons I don't understand why you guys are complaining. It's not hard to overwhelm the Kurzicks, you just need to have a little bit more coordination and teamwork (of course bringing the right builds helps immensely), because certainly I will give you one thing that the Kurz can easily ball up inside the fort, thus automatically giving them more coordination. Everything else can be countered.

There are good and bad players on both sides. The problem is that the Luxon are at a substantial disadvantage, which means that the Kurzick will inevitably win more.

It's the design of the map.

I disagree. I play both sides and I see way more shitter builds on luxon side. Like I said earlier simply taking a few ranger spirits screws over a large majority of bonding/prot builds.

There is almost no luxon that brings enchant removal, rend, rip, profane or otherwise, there are way too many omfgspikesins and warriors who think they can do good.

Luxons also rely on the turtle too much, so if it gets blocked people think it is game over, where the turtle is simply a luxury and isn't needed at all.

The design is a bit far fetched and needs to change the turtle AI, but I don't find luxon losing so much the maps fault as much as players.

I have to side with this.

The easiest way to fck over the Kurzicks is to bring EoE. Generally, they're more worried about the players to go out and find it (Especially if it's hidden behind the small outcrops on the outside of green), and it will rape Gunther.

Hell, most times you don't even need to bring it: Kurzick griefers bring it for you! An EoE in the area of Gunther, 99% of the time will end in his demise.

I can't agree with this more. As a Kurzick, I see that once we have both mines and lose ONE, the Luxons will -generally- ignore the second mind. That's an oversight on their part.

Being the occasional luxon, I see the teams rely -too much- on the turtles. Sure, they can really crank out the damage, but the luxons need to be aggressive. Don't just stand there and ride the turtle around.

When I see the Luxons fail, generally it's because their team isn't organized or cooperative with one another. It's rare that I have a really close battle with a good luxon team.

I've never once complained about the map from the Luxon side. It's supposed to give the Kurzicks an advantage: If you can't handle that, don't FA.

Everything you said is completely negated by this.

You cant think outside the box, can you? Furthermore, you really need to improve your reading comprehension. First of all, I said its not about winning, but about those two specific issues (turtle and gate NPC) more than anything else. On top of it, People said way way way too many times that BOTH sides usually have bad players because this is a casual format. By the looks of it I doubt you'll even understand it now, but at least I gave it another shot.

Kurzicks keep winning at the Jade Quarry? Not while I was playing there. Not so many times at all.

I have seen only one Fort Aspenwood battle in which Gunther was lured out, and I've been through way more battles than you can count. Furthermore, if its possible, I would suggest fixing that as well.

Juggernauts werent surviving for so long to actually make a major difference anyway. Furthermore, they have knockdown and the Body Block issue isnt only Fort Aspenwood's. Its also a problem at Heroes' Ascent (and not only there).

Why are we complaining? First of all, you have to comprehend what we're saying. You think its all about winning and about saying only Kurzicks are bad. The truth is that the majority of the Luxons in this thread have only agreed about the Turtle AI issue and the gate NPCs.

You can always blame the people for not bringing the best builds, but you keep forgetting its a casual format. You cant expect most people to behave in the most efficient way. You can expect most people to bring whatever they prefer, and this is exactly what's happening. If you want people to behave in a more efficient way, create a premade mode (in addition to the one there's now), and then you'll see different results.

Some of the advantages are acceptable, in my opinion. For example: Perches, Amber fixing the gates, res points extremely close to Gunther in the final battle, etc. The only problems I find really disturbing are the Turtle's AI, and the ease of keeping NPCs alive. Both have been discussed and I made suggestions to fix it.
With all due respect, the builds' issue (Kurzick vs Luxon) represents your experience only, while there have been numerous battles you werent in. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it sure is possible that it was just your experience.

Other than that, its a casual format and you should expect people to bring what they prefer over what's best for the team. That's a big part of being casual, to many people (facts speak for themselves). Furthermore, stripping alone isnt enough, because the players in the team are not well coordinated. How could we expect that from a random team of casuals?

@ Hyperventilate

You can see my comments (at this post, above) about casual players at this format, and being realistic about your expectations from them. Blame the casual players for behaving the way they do, when the map is designed for them. It'll get you nowhere.

I'll have to agree with upier about you negating everything you said with the above quote.

What disadvantage is that? I saw so many posts and I still do not get it (actually I see many people claiming disadvantage but never see any arguments). I play both sides equally and in my opinion it all depends on people in.

Or you simply didnt read the thread. Here's a part of one of my posts, from this thread (the most important part is in bold letters):

Shasgaliel, you can see the issues I refer to if you read my first post in this thread. You'll also see the (easy to implement) suggestions I made to fix the two issues.

While it's casual format, it's casual PvP. Meaning you encounter other human players who might have a better build than you have. Or play smarter. In both cases they should win.
This casual gameplay you talk about works on both sides.

This raises a question. Can one side gain advantage by having one or two good players on the team that is impossible to counter with one or two good players on the other side?
Or should we state that Kurz in general brings better builds/tactics, meaning they are more knowledgeable about what works and what doesn't?

because you have so much more experience than anyone else, right?

Today I once again went in with EoE.
I used to run it pretty much non-stop but then I suddenly stopped.
And today, after the great suggestion to bring it again, I did bring it only to be reminded WHY I stopped running it in the first place.
The teams that EoE works against, are the teams that pretty much anything works against.
When you are dealing with semi-competent teams - EoE will be down faster than it took you to put it down.


Yes.
That's the monk problem.
There is not a SINGLE Luxon bar that would be as effective as a heal/prot Kurzick monk.

The Luxon NEED to play as a team of players, while the Kurzick can play as a group of individuals.

Sure, gate healing/protting is effective. Else people would not not do this.
But if every match has at least two monks on Kurz side and (almost) no monk counters on Lux side I'd say we have a different problem. This ain't random play, it's people with some minor understanding fighting people with no understanding. Guess who wins.

As solution: how about an environmental effect that makes healing npc's that are not in party window harder the closer the human monk is to Guntar? On both sides. And move the turtles /juggers (not sure they are in) out of party window when the last gate is breached. This would support more offensive play on both sides I'd say.

ok, have a training area that will let the lux figure out their team before the match starts or just nerf the whole thing like Hero's ascent

The problem is fitting all the roles that need to be fulfilled onto one bar.
Because if you can't fit everything onto one bar - you NEED your team mates to fill in the missing roles.
And a Kurzick monk is able to fill ALL the needed roles. Single-handedly.

Now ask yourself, what do you need on the Luxon side and can that all fit onto one bar?
And that's the problem. As a Luxon you not only need your team-mates to play well (the same requirement that applies to the Kurzick - and that is the reason why nobody that understands the problem is discussing the skill of players!), they also need to bring complementary skills.
In a random arena.
Where the other side is not forced to do the same.

the only thing I agree with.
FA really isnt unbalanced the players are.
I have been in MANY games where the Luxons win and quickly because they brought a good build and could use it properly.
Its not the servers its the lack of players and has been stated so by Gaile.

Also, bad, or else this thread wouldn't be here.

@ upier

I completely agree with your last two posts.

If it was just about skill and what builds each side brings, I'd be very glad. It mostly is, by the way, which is why I'm happy about many aspects of this battle. My only two problems were the easy way the turtle can be delayed for a very long time, and the easy way a monk can hold the gate for too long, just because of the map's design.

Other than that, the Kurzicks have several advantages which I'm very happy about. Its not about winning, its about preventing the few cases in which the map's design causes serious problems to one side. Dont get me wrong, I support changes at the Kurzick side like preventing any possibility of the last NPC being lured out.

Your post was relevant if I said I know better than anyone else here (that only my experience counts), which I didnt. Therefore your post is irrelevant, and out of place.

If it was only about understanding what works, I'd agree, but its not. A main part of designing a casual format is the understanding that the people who do so will (almost in every case) bring whatever build/profession they prefer. For that reason you should prevent a case in which an individual has a very serious impact that has almost nothing to do with his own skill.

I believe my suggestion, regarding the Turtle and the monks (who keep gate NPCs alive), is much more simple to implement and suits the casual format in a much better way.

Or create an outpost with a premade mode, like I suggested some posts ago.

Its the lack of players indeed. There are people here who have played quite a lot and dont share the same experience. The only ones who really know who wins more are A-Net employees, which none of us are (am I wrong?).

As for your "arguement" regarding the map's balance, you should check out my comment to Apathetic Tom at the bottom of this post. If you want to be taken seriously, the least you should do is prove that you know what you're saying. Or do you expect someone to be foolish enough to just take your word for it, and you'll never have to explain anything (some at least some others provided well made arguements).

When you ignore well made arguements which prove there are issues, it doesnt make you right. An arguement consists of more than just "what Apathetic Tom thinks". An arguements consists of some kind of evidence, which you brought none and I (and others) did.

Here's an example for an arguement:

A single Ranger, with a very common and easy to play build, can delay the turtle for as long as he likes. The Turtle, which is quite squishy (try to protect him once and see), is supposed to be one of the Luxons' advantages when fighting at Fort Aspenwood. Therefore its an issue to be taken care of.

In case the turtle isnt dying as a result (which rarely happens), it can be delayed forever. The imbalance has nothing to do with skill, and if the Ranger doesnt die (which happens quite a lot, and he's on a perch, by the way) the Turtle will stay in one place. In case the Ranger dies (and takes a very short time to come back), he'll almost always be replaced by another who lasts at least enough time for the Ranger to come back.

(The arguement example ends here)

There's even a way to keep the turtle busy with no chance of being hurt, but hey, its not an issue because Apathetic Tom said this thread exists just because the Luxons casual players act as casual players (while playing a casual format of a PvP map). He must be right if he says so. He doesnt even have to explain anything, its Apathetic Tom, you know.

@pauli. see this is your problem along with many other luxons. You worry too much about the turtle instead of playing your build properly.
Most of the matches I have lost against the luxons are ones where turtles dont even come into play. Its because the PLAYERS know what theyre doing. Stop worrying so much about the turtles and play better.

Too bad you didnt ask, because I dont usually mind the turtle that much. Why is that? Because I know he can be delayed. You dont see my problem. You see what you want to see. If you actually wanted to know what I'm doing, you could simply ask. Empty assumptions get you nowhere.

The turtle was given to the Luxons so they'll be able to make some use of it if they know what they're doing. However, no matter what they know or do, one person can hold the turtle without getting hurt or by healing himself sufficiently (which many solo builds can).

I provided arguements proving there's an issue here that has to do with the map's design an not with player skill. You have provided no arguement of your own and havent refuted any of my arguements. How do you expect people to take your posts seriously?

Sorry if I didn't feel like reading long posts through the four pages (but I did get through one page), but I think it's a pretty nice idea for Kurz/Luxon roles in FA be switched. If it hasn't been said (which it probably has), I'll say it (again):

Naturally, the Kurzicks would control the fort and defend it, while the Luxons would try and break in and take it. If the Luxons take it, they (and others who have won their attacking matches) would be defending the fort while the Kurzicks who lost the fort (and others who have lost their defending matches) would be the attackers, and the circle goes on from there. Of course, this would require a bit of a revamp on the attacking Kurzicks' juggernauts, giving them the similar functionality of siege turtles, but the juggernauts would be holding bazookas that fire amber (or jade). Sorry if all this seems a little complicated.

About the attacking juggernauts: They would need something that allows them to break through Luxon defenses in the event that they (Luxon) hold the fort. My thoughts: a bazooka that fires a beam of light, which is basically a Ray of Judgment of 5 sec at 13 smiting prayers compressed into 1 sec that burns (10 sec) instead of removing enchantments, but ignores all defenses and hits foes in the area of impact as well as the trajectory of said beam. But the downside is that the juggernaut would have to be fed a decent amount of amber in order for it to shoot, otherwise it would have to resort to melee, which is Earth Shaker/Aftershock @ 13 earth magic. The same thing applies to attacking turtles, but their close-range defense would be Grasping Earth/Shockwave @ 13 earth magic.

The lore behind the whole thing:
The Luxons, needing a new source of power, one the Kurzicks could not defend against but had an abundance of, amber. This conclusion came when a surviving Luxon turtle operator in the aftermath of a large scale battle deep in the Echovald Forest was short on jade. The exhausted operator and turtle were quickly spotted, but the spotter retreated to alert other of their whereabouts. Desperate, the operator launched the turtle's last supply of jade and began looking for something, anything, to load the cannon with. A sparkle of golden light shone from above the petrified forest onto a shard of amber sticking out, grabbing the turtle operator's attention. With all the speed and strength he had, he grabbed his pickaxe, descended from the turtle, and he began to furiously swing at the shard. To his luck, he had hit a vein of amber. Several Luxons who had feigned death or hid heard the commotion, and decided to join in the action, eventually mining enough amber to stuff into the cannon several times over.

By the time the Kurzicks arrived, the few surviving Luxons made their last stand, boldly staring down three juggernauts and nine Kurzicks surrounding each of them. The final battle began, giving the turtle operator enough time to load the cannon and fire the freshly mined amber, hoping it would fire at all. It was a success, as the amber shattered the Kurzicks' magical defenses against jade, and instantly killed the juggernaut it was fired at, and killing and severely maiming those caught in the explosion. The second shot was fired, killing more than before and making the Kurzicks wonder what in Balthazar's name has penetrated their jade-resistant shield, until it dawned on one Kurzick commander after looking at one of the dead juggernauts with a large chunk of amber lodged into its head... they are using amber against us, he thought, and ordered his remaining forces to retreat, fearing the next shot of amber was going to kill him and more.

Only one Luxon soldier and the turtle operator remained alive during that last skirmish, and they went back the way they came to report their success and a new idea on how to make the job of killing juggernauts easier. During their return home to the Turtle Clan, they encountered stiff resistance primarily composing of forest wardens and the occasional oni ambush, and each were dispatched of using the more powerful amber as the new ammunition for the turtle cannon, and the combat skills of the Luxon soldier doing the main fighting. With some luck, the trio encountered a group of adventurers who were partaking on a activity called a "vanquish" who were more than willing to escort the Turtle Clan fighters to their respective home.

Shortly after returning home, the turtle operator quickly reported to Elder Rhea of both the progress through the Echovald Forest and the implementation of amber to attack the Kurzicks with, and what the amber did to the Kurzick juggernauts' defenses. Reluctantly, Elder Rhea considered the idea, and a week later, she had sent an armada of men, women, and turtles on a campaign to take Fort Aspenwood, knowing the resistance will be nothing short of stiff, and once the fort is taken, the Kurzicks will be sure to want it back, as the most valuable of amber is located there as well as in Urgoz's Warren, but the latter required heroes more powerful and experienced than what the Kurzicks had.

Sorry if my lore sucks. I'm hoping to be a lore writer for a respected company that will take me in one day, and I still have tons of improvement.